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Message no. 1
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:27:01 -0400
> I do not think that is would be a good idea to look at novels when you
are
> pondering about rule questions. There are too many faults in the novels
> regarding the rules.
> What the author has written can be correct in the sense of the shadowrun
> world, but it is possible that it is simply something that the author
wishes
> (without looking for the correctness of the SR world).

<rant/on>

This is something that has bothered me since I joined this list.
What is the big deal about the novels?
I have heard countless people say that the novels are not SR canon.

Canon, not canon ... what's the big deal here?

AFAIK - if the product says FASA, and has an SR logo then it is possible.
It may not be in any of the rule books, but the way I always looked at that
was that the novels are about unique individuals, In many cases the
pinnacle of the shadowrunner community.

Just because something is not in the rule books IMO doesn't mean that It
can't be done.
There's a lot of spells that aren't in any SR supplement, but that doesn't
mean you can't use the spell generation rules to make them.

There are NO stats for a flamethrower in ANY FASA SR products.
Does that mean that there are NO flamethrowers in the universe of 2058?
I doubt it.

I guess I just don't see how we can accept the return of magic, elves,
trolls, etc. and then have a problem accepting a few variations on the
theme.
How is a Hearth Spirit so much more believeable than a Spirit of Light that
can enter the matrix?

Whew ... <rant/off>

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"They do not know. They only THINK they know ..."
Message no. 2
From: Benjamin Pflugmann
Subject: Re: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:46:48 +0100
> > I do not think that is would be a good idea to look at novels when you
> are
> > pondering about rule questions. There are too many faults in the novels
> > regarding the rules.
> > What the author has written can be correct in the sense of the shadowrun
> > world, but it is possible that it is simply something that the author
> wishes
> > (without looking for the correctness of the SR world).
>
> <rant/on>
>
> This is something that has bothered me since I joined this list.
> What is the big deal about the novels?
> I have heard countless people say that the novels are not SR canon.
>
> Canon, not canon ... what's the big deal here?
>
> AFAIK - if the product says FASA, and has an SR logo then it is possible.
> It may not be in any of the rule books, but the way I always looked at that
> was that the novels are about unique individuals, In many cases the
> pinnacle of the shadowrunner community.
>
> Just because something is not in the rule books IMO doesn't mean that It
> can't be done.
> There's a lot of spells that aren't in any SR supplement, but that doesn't
> mean you can't use the spell generation rules to make them.
>
> There are NO stats for a flamethrower in ANY FASA SR products.
> Does that mean that there are NO flamethrowers in the universe of 2058?
> I doubt it.

You missed, what I meant. I wanted to say that there are some authors that
do not care enough about the background of SR when they write the stories,
so that they write about things that are cool but would not be able in the
world of SR.

Just an example of our world:
That is something like someone jumping off the 10th floor of a building.
Sure, it might be possible that the person does not die when he hit the
ground. But only cause the author want a cool action where the person jumps
down and is not hurt, this does not mean that this is likely in our world.

That is what I wanted to say.

> I guess I just don't see how we can accept the return of magic, elves,
> trolls, etc. and then have a problem accepting a few variations on the
> theme.
> How is a Hearth Spirit so much more believeable than a Spirit of Light that
> can enter the matrix?

I have no problem to accept some enhancements that fit into the world. But
when there are some parts in the rule books that say the opposite of what
the novel says, I simply guess, that the author wanted a cool shot without
caring about what is possible within the background.

(For example, I liked the idea in a novel where this mage was that was a
computer specialist, too. It is ok, because this guy was quite mad. The
only way to live with two opposite ways of life).

Bye,

Benjamin.

--
pfb08188@*****.physik.uni-regensburg.de
benjamin@*****.leibniz.in-passau.de
Message no. 3
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:08:29 +0000
> <rant/on>
>
> This is something that has bothered me since I joined this list.
> What is the big deal about the novels?
> I have heard countless people say that the novels are not SR canon.
<SNIP>
>
> Whew ... <rant/off>

Very simple... The novels contradict themselves.. and the rules.. In
one novel the mage couldn't read anything from astral space... and
this is what the rules say, but in Shadowboxer (Newest book AFAIK)
the mage reads labelling easily from astral space... *head scratch*

Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 4
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:06:58 -0400
> (For example, I liked the idea in a novel where this mage was that was a
> computer specialist, too. It is ok, because this guy was quite mad. The
> only way to live with two opposite ways of life).

Not knowing which mage you refer to I really can't comment specifically.

I don't see why you'd have to be mad to be a computer spec, and a mage.
One you are born with, the other you train at.
Assuming a corp education, most 13 year old kids would be fairly computer
proficient.
In fact, check Prime Runners, VR1 and 2, to see that some of the BEST
deckers are also quite young.

Consider then the fact that many mages don't discover their talent until
the onset of puberty.
Many FASA references have said that hermeticism is very mathematical,
almost a scientific study of magic.
Why would a person with this mindset have any trouble with computers?

I'm not picking on your example alone.
It's just that I really have yet to see anything in an SR novel that cannot
be adequately duplicated by legitimate SR rules.
Sure, you have to assume a fairly high power level of PC's, but that's the
point isn't it?
A lot of the novels are about GOOD runners, not just some street punk with
a zip gun.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"They do not know. They only THINK they know ..."
Message no. 5
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:30:12 -0400
> Very simple... The novels contradict themselves.. and the rules.. In
> one novel the mage couldn't read anything from astral space... and
> this is what the rules say, but in Shadowboxer (Newest book AFAIK)
> the mage reads labelling easily from astral space... *head scratch*

One shaman does it and that rules out the novels as "canon?"
This could never be a learned skill, or a total fluke?
Or a spurious magical skill unique to that individual?

I'm not convinced, but I don't expect to be.
You have your opinion, I have mine, I'm content with the way my world is.
I don't want to drag this out into a huge discussion, I just have never
seen a convincing example of a TOTAL impossibility that would rule out all
the novels as "canon."

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"They do not know. They only THINK they know ..."
Message no. 6
From: Loki <gamemstr@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:41:53 -0700
> It's just that I really have yet to see anything in an SR novel that
cannot
> be adequately duplicated by legitimate SR rules.
> Sure, you have to assume a fairly high power level of PC's, but that's
the
> point isn't it?
> A lot of the novels are about GOOD runners, not just some street punk
with
> a zip gun.

I totally agree. Most main characters in the novels would be classified as
Prime Runners (Stryper, Bandit, Dodger, the mage from Burning Bright (his
name escapes me), etc). I agree to a few discrepencies and artistic
licenses (One example would've been in Dead Air when the Owl Shaman casts
and sustains a Mana Barrier while astrally projecting). For the most part,
I haven't run across much in the novels that can't somehow be explained
within the confines of the game.

However, I haven't yet finished Preying for Keeps, or read Lucifer Deck.

@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
Message no. 7
From: Benjamin Pflugmann
Subject: Re: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:38:13 +0100
> > (For example, I liked the idea in a novel where this mage was that was a
> > computer specialist, too. It is ok, because this guy was quite mad. The
> > only way to live with two opposite ways of life).
>
> Not knowing which mage you refer to I really can't comment specifically.

I do not own the novels I read, so I cannot look for it.

But I think it is the triology about germany. The novel "The eyes of the
rigger" (word to word translation of the german title) is the second book of
this triology, I think.

There was this mage that is an decker, too. He gave the runs to the hero,
that started the whole story. But after this, he has been killed by a killer
hired by a dragon the mage was working with. (Oh, I am bad in telling
stories :-)

> I don't see why you'd have to be mad to be a computer spec, and a mage.
> One you are born with, the other you train at.

Hm. I read somewhere (but it could have been in a novel, too ;), that the
ability to deck (not to know computer science) is given by heritage, in the
same DNA part as the ability to be magic active.

So if someone want to be both, there must be something wrong with his DNA...
(sorry, I really do not know, where I read it

> Assuming a corp education, most 13 year old kids would be fairly computer
> proficient.

This is no problem to me. I meant going to the matrix (living in that
virtual reality), not to know things about computers.

> In fact, check Prime Runners, VR1 and 2, to see that some of the BEST
> deckers are also quite young.
>
> Consider then the fact that many mages don't discover their talent until
> the onset of puberty.

You are right. I think there may be a lot of children that know much about
computers. But as someone other already said: There is this story of Samual
Verner who got headaches from using his interface, because he is has the
ability to be shaman.

> Many FASA references have said that hermeticism is very mathematical,
> almost a scientific study of magic.
> Why would a person with this mindset have any trouble with computers?

Such a person would maybe get a hermetic mage instead of a shaman. But after
he knows about his ability, why should he be interested to know more about
computers?

Btw: How much boys and girls with 13 years would have the interface to go
into the matrix?

> I'm not picking on your example alone.
> It's just that I really have yet to see anything in an SR novel that cannot
> be adequately duplicated by legitimate SR rules.

Hm. I found several when I was reading the novels. Especially concerning
magic, since I mainly play a sorcerer. But none of them comes to my mind
atm.

> Sure, you have to assume a fairly high power level of PC's, but that's the
> point isn't it?

Sure.

> A lot of the novels are about GOOD runners, not just some street punk with
> a zip gun.

Yes, sure. I never thought of something other. But again: Even with high
level characters, there are some things that are not explainable with the
rule books.

Bye,

Benjamin.
--
pfb08188@*****.physik.uni-regensburg.de
benjamin@*****.leibniz.in-passau.de
Message no. 8
From: Benjamin Pflugmann
Subject: Re: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:45:44 +0100
Oops. I forgot to say something in my last mail:

When I say, the novels describe something that is not explained by the rule
books, I mean NOT, that it is impossible at all. I mean that it is not
explained.

As example (a fiction): When reading about toxic spirits in a novel (think
back in the first days of SR!) and knowing nothing about them, you cannot
say: "Ah, it is easy, every guy can summon toxic spirits"

I mean not, that those toxic spirits cannot exist or something like this.
All I say is, that they are not covered by the rules and one should not
start use them like normal spirits as long as you do not know what the
author thought when he was writing this.

Bye,

Benjamin.

--
pfb08188@*****.physik.uni-regensburg.de
benjamin@*****.leibniz.in-passau.de
Message no. 9
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:40:23 +0100
In message <199704162224.RAA08770@***.ncweb.com>, "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes
>This is something that has bothered me since I joined this list.
>What is the big deal about the novels?

>I have heard countless people say that the novels are not SR canon.
>
>Canon, not canon ... what's the big deal here?


Imagine a player who insists that a certain effect is possible because
it's in one of the novels. (Grounding a spell from astral through a
paper bag is one example I've heard here).

Wham, there you go. The rules say one thing, the novels say another.
Your player wants to run with the novel, not the rules.

>Just because something is not in the rule books IMO doesn't mean that It
>can't be done.

Yeah, but then the idea is there are things _players_ can't do that
others can, without a lot of debate with the GM first.

>There's a lot of spells that aren't in any SR supplement, but that doesn't
>mean you can't use the spell generation rules to make them.
>
>There are NO stats for a flamethrower in ANY FASA SR products.

Yeah, well, here, use mine :)

>Does that mean that there are NO flamethrowers in the universe of 2058?
>I doubt it.

But you don't turn up at the game with a Streetline Special firing
"depleted-uranium napalm cop-killer" rounds that do 24D armour-piercing
damage because a character in a SR novel had some "new ammo" that worked
pretty good: you talk over what you want to do with the GM.

Point remains, some people can and do try to insist that "if it's in a
novel then my character can do it too and you can't stop me because FASA
say that's true." That's why the novels aren't canon material: doesn't
mean you _can't_ use them, just that they may portray exceptions to the
norm.
>
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 10
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:41:59 +0100
In message <199704170328.WAA24922@***.ncweb.com>, "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes
>One shaman does it and that rules out the novels as "canon?"
>This could never be a learned skill, or a total fluke?
>Or a spurious magical skill unique to that individual?

The point about "novels aren't canon" is that this the occasional (and
exceptional - thanks for the clarification, Jak) _is_ a fluke, a rarity,
a strange skill, whatever.

If the novels _are_ canon then any magically active PC can read while
astrally projecting, or ground spells from astral through mundane
objects, in direct contravention of the rules.

Instead, the GM can say "So you know it's impossible. This guy did it
while you watched. What'cha gonna do?" Maybe a PC can even learn to
emulate the feat, at some cost and sacrifice and effort. But it's not
"mainstream SR". It lets you expand your rules - if you want - or else
rule it as impossible if you prefer.

"Canon", to me, means "rules the PCs can routinely use", not "the
sum of
possibilities in Shadowrun".

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 11
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:07:28 -0500
At 11:41 PM 4/17/97 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote these timeless words:

>"Canon", to me, means "rules the PCs can routinely use", not
"the sum of
>possibilities in Shadowrun".
>
Unfortunatly, this is where the whole problem with the concept of "canon"
(as opposed to "Cannon":)) lies... What exactly does canon mean?

I've dealt with this issue before on the Star Wars newsgroups (and
currently on my SW Mailing List:( ) about teh Star Wars novels vs. the
Movies...

Basically, Canon means "Part of the Universe", not necessarily "part of the
Rules". This is where Tinner was heading with his argument, I believe...

The real question should have read: "Why don't you think the novels are
part of the SR world as a whole?", which is not something that most of us
have a problem with, I believe, though i have seen it stated that some
people don't like Book X, and so don't believe that Book X is canon. Most
often, Book X is either "Just Compensation" (Which I thought had a couple
good character concepts) and "Worlds without End" (Another fragging IE
story...:)).

Granted, most of the books I wouldn't ever try to consider sources for
rules... But have you ever tred to write a story based on a game and try
to keep EVERYTHING by the rules? If you want your characters to do
anytrhing cool and unique, you end up with problems... And as Jak said,
sometimes the idea simply comes out wrong...

Anyways, to clarify things, what is canon? the definition, I mean.. Once
you know WHAT it is, you can argue about what sources ARE canon...:]

Bull
--
Now the Offical Shadowrn mailing List Welcome Ork!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
NEW HOME PAGE!: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html
As well as a sort of new .sig! ;]

Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich (chaos@*****.com)

"BTW - It's time for a new quote at the end of your .sig,
I'm tired of the Mighty One."
-Steven Tinner
Message no. 12
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Knocking the Novels (Was - Re: Magic and the Matrix)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:59:44 -0400
>But I think it is the triology about germany. The novel "The eyes of the
>rigger" (word to word translation of the german title) is the second book of
>this triology, I think.
>
>There was this mage that is an decker, too. He gave the runs to the hero,
>that started the whole story. But after this, he has been killed by a killer
>hired by a dragon the mage was working with. (Oh, I am bad in telling
>stories :-)
>

They have novels in other languages? Cool, I never thought about that!
time to brush up on my Francais! Wow....a whole new world of SR novels....


-=SwiftOne=-

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