Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	MINION <goehrigd@****.CANISIUS.EDU>
Subject:	Languages
Date:	Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:45:51 -0500

Message no. 1 Some thing that is kind of interesting about the language
question on the list is that it has a direct impact on the
SR game itself. According to the rules most of us have
spent about 5-15 skill points just on languages alone
if we were to make out characters based on ourselves.
(I figure 1= good enough to get by 3 = fluent..
my rating is about and 9 not counting the "computer"
languages...(two real languages and two pseudo-languages)

How many characters in your gaming scessions spend
that many points on language (who has that many to spend?)

The average street sam spends 18 - 24 points on combat skills
and combat relate skills alone. According to the SR rules
I have spent 25% of a class A skill choice on languages..
And I am a science/computer person who hates them.

Are the skill points a little low or what?
I think college kid in the world has been trained
to at least level 3 in 8 skills... what about professionals?

_____________________________________________________
| "Deaf And Blind And Dumb And Born To Follow, |
| What You Need Is Someone Strong to Guide You." |
|_____________________________________________________|
|Goehrigd@********.bitnet | Goehrigd@****.canisius.edu|
|_____________________________________________________|

From:	"Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Wed, 22 Feb 1995 19:52:29 -0500

Message no. 2 This is where you use 1st ed. rules. :) I give my characters a number of
points equal to their Intelligence +2 for their native language(s). They
then get a number of points equal to their Intelligence for other languages.
(The Intelligence rating includes both Cerebral Booster and Encephalon
mods.)
Tom Craig

From:	John Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:08:55 +0100

Message no. 3 > How many characters in your gaming scessions spend
> that many points on language (who has that many to spend?)
>
> The average street sam spends 18 - 24 points on combat skills
> and combat relate skills alone. According to the SR rules
> I have spent 25% of a class A skill choice on languages..
> And I am a science/computer person who hates them.

Well we are not street kids that never went to school and grew up
in a gang. I think that this is one of the main reasons :)
I have noticed however that sammies in our group tend to get
quite a few foreign languages in char gen (mostly as chipps, but
hey who cares) and mages always take the nearly obligatory
latin/ancient greek/sperethiel for future use (as a centering
skill).

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?

From:	Quicksilver <jhurley1@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:36:57 -30000

Message no. 4 On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, MINION wrote:

> Some thing that is kind of interesting about the language
> question on the list is that it has a direct impact on the
> SR game itself. According to the rules most of us have
> spent about 5-15 skill points just on languages alone
> if we were to make out characters based on ourselves.
> (I figure 1= good enough to get by 3 = fluent..
> my rating is about and 9 not counting the "computer"
> languages...(two real languages and two pseudo-languages)

Something I do is a holdover from Shadowrun I. You get your native
language a a rating equal to your intelligence+2 (which means that the
average speaker uses that language at a level of 5...). You also get
a number of points to spend in secondary languages equal to your
intelligence. (Esperanto and Sperethiel may not be taken as primaries.)

>
> How many characters in your gaming scessions spend
> that many points on language (who has that many to spend?)

I've been trying to get my characters to spend points on ettiquete skills
(hint to those of you reading)

[snip]
> Are the skill points a little low or what?
> I think college kid in the world has been trained
> to at least level 3 in 8 skills... what about professionals?

Umm. This is my take on skill levels. Level 1 is dangerously low
training. No-one would have such a low skill except at the beginning of
learning the skill (It is ALWAYS better to default than use a rating 1
skill). Level two is amateur level. Level three is apprentice level.
Level four is professional level/journeyman level. This is the
entry-level skill requirement for any technical jobs. A college grad has
a couple of level-4 skills in his/her major, down to a low of 1 in those
classes that he/she didn't go to except for the quizzes.:-) Level 5-6 is
master level. This is the experience level of a proffessional after
several years of work. Level 5 also represents a Masters, level 6 a PhD.
Levels 7-8 is adept level, or olympic level for such skills. The owner
of these skill has a small reputation for this level of skill. And so on
and so forth.

Chavez:"I want to see his eyes when it happens."
Clark:"So use a good scope on the rifle."

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:34:04 +0100

Message no. 5 >Umm. This is my take on skill levels. Level 1 is dangerously low
>training. No-one would have such a low skill except at the beginning of
>learning the skill (It is ALWAYS better to default than use a rating 1
>skill).

I'd disallow defaulting if a character has the skill he wants to use, no
matter the level. Yes, this can lead munchkins and god knows what taking a
few skills at level 6 and defaulting the rest with their attributes of 9+,
but then I don't have any (real) munchkin characters/players.

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oooh! Smells like a job for ... TOILETMAN!!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	languages
Date:	Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:35:08 +0100

Message no. 6 >Unfortunately there's a bunch of expressions that are just
>untranslateble. Swedish is kind of a boring language, translating
>"chummers" just gets ridiculous.

For words like those, we use the English words without attempting a
translation; for instance: "Die suit kijkt naar jullie en zegt 'ga aan de
kant, chummers.'" (translation: That suit looks at you and says 'step aside,
chummers.') Usually works well to keep the atmosphere but still make things
understandable.

>And using different Swedish dialects
>instead of American-English, Spanish-English, German-English, well,
>last time I tried they more or less all exploded in laughter on the
>floor.

Never tried this, and likely never will either :) I speak a Dutch dialect in
everyday life (don't label me as a farmer, OK? :), so perhaps I could try to
make an NPC look civilized by making him/her speak normal Dutch...

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oooh! Smells like a job for ... TOILETMAN!!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

From:	Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject:	Languages
Date:	Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:02:14 -0600

Message no. 7 I just remembered another question I wanted to ask.

How do most of you make languages work? I mean if someone is playing a
character from Japan...why should he pick Japanese as his
language...shouldnt it be a given? and wouldnt read/write be pretty high
instead of half language points?

Ed

- - - - - - - - - - - - Cut Here - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
JADG Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/jadg/index.html
The 3D Ark Page: http://www.3dark.com/

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:10:19 +1000

Message no. 8 Ed writes:
> I just remembered another question I wanted to ask.
>
> How do most of you make languages work? I mean if someone is playing a
> character from Japan...why should he pick Japanese as his
> language...shouldnt it be a given? and wouldnt read/write be pretty high
> instead of half language points?

Why should someone raised on the streets of Seattle choose English as
his/her native language? Shouldn't it be a given?

As a matter of fact, it _is_ a given. :) That's why you get a free language
up to the Intelligence. It's the choice of native language that's up to the
player.

(Unless SR3 has come along and changed all of this, of course)

As for the read/write stuff, I'd say half language sounds about right,
unless you've chosen to specialise.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com

From:	Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:25:06 -0600

Message no. 9 At 03:10 PM 10/30/98 +1000, you wrote:
>As a matter of fact, it _is_ a given. :) That's why you get a free language
>up to the Intelligence. It's the choice of native language that's up to the
>player.
>(Unless SR3 has come along and changed all of this, of course)

I know SRII let you have the free language but I did not see it mentioned
in the SR3 book. It says something like all characters get one language
and then goes on about 1.5xInt is the number of points to put into one or
more languages. Maybe the mention of the all characters start off with one
language is the free one..but it doesnt say that the rating is your Int.

>As for the read/write stuff, I'd say half language sounds about right,
>unless you've chosen to specialise.

Would you say the read/write could be higher if they had an intelligence of
6 or more?

Ed

- - - - - - - - - - - - Cut Here - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
JADG Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/jadg/index.html
The 3D Ark Page: http://www.3dark.com/

From:	Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:31:01 -0800

Message no. 10 > I just remembered another question I wanted to ask.
>
> How do most of you make languages work? I mean if someone is playing a
> character from Japan...why should he pick Japanese as his
> language...shouldnt it be a given? and wouldnt read/write be pretty high
> instead of half language points?
>
> Ed
Depends how long he lived there. Born and raised? Born and lived long
enough to learn to read and write, then move. Stuff like that. I've never
had a character that didn't have english as his normal language. We
normally included read/write in with the base language rating, except for a
few odd languages.

From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:27:15 +1000

Message no. 11 >I know SRII let you have the free language but I did not see it mentioned
>in the SR3 book. It says something like all characters get one language
>and then goes on about 1.5xInt is the number of points to put into one or
>more languages. Maybe the mention of the all characters start off with one
>language is the free one..but it doesnt say that the rating is your Int.

I'm pretty sure that all you get for 'free' is 1.5xInt in points to spend
on Languages. IE. all characters start with (at least) one language.

>>As for the read/write stuff, I'd say half language sounds about right,
>>unless you've chosen to specialise.
>
>Would you say the read/write could be higher if they had an intelligence of
>6 or more?

We didn't like this rule at all - we figured that some characters would
have Read/Write as high as their general language skill, others would be
virtually illiterate. We agreed to make it a GM call, based on the
character background - ex-gangers and so forth will be virtually illiterate
(unless they actively put skill points into it), whereas characters with
tertiary educations and the like will be as literate R/W-wise, as for
speaking and listening. So it's basically up to the GM.

Lady Jestyr

- In the force if Yoda's so strong, then construct a sentence -
- with words in the proper order why can't he? -
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -

From:	Rook <rook@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:20:53 -0800

Message no. 12 > I'm pretty sure that all you get for 'free' is 1.5xInt in points to spend
> on Languages. IE. all characters start with (at least) one language.
>
> >>As for the read/write stuff, I'd say half language sounds about right,
> >>unless you've chosen to specialise.
> >
> >Would you say the read/write could be higher if they had an intelligence of
> >6 or more?
>
> We didn't like this rule at all - we figured that some characters would
> have Read/Write as high as their general language skill, others would be
> virtually illiterate. We agreed to make it a GM call, based on the
> character background - ex-gangers and so forth will be virtually illiterate
> (unless they actively put skill points into it), whereas characters with
> tertiary educations and the like will be as literate R/W-wise, as for
> speaking and listening. So it's basically up to the GM.

Actually the book even says to make it a GM call:

P. 59, Language skills, third paragraph.

"Each character also has Reading/Writing Skill in the language(s) he or
she knows at half the rating of that language skill, rounded down.
Gamemasters can raise or lower this rating depending on the background
of the character. Because Reading/Writing skills are based on languages
your character knows, characters cannot specialize in them.

A character with an int of 6 gets 9 points to get languages with, to
include native language. That's backed up by the sample characters. Of
course you also have Int * 5 points to use on knowledge skills which may
be used for languages as well (but not vice versa). So that's how you
get the smart guy with lots of languages.

As for Japanese; why should they be any more literate than anyone else?

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG TownHall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ Nothing vast enters the life of mortals without a curse.
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 00:28:12 -0600

Message no. 13 Whoops ... deleted original message asking about how we (ShadowRN) handle
Languages.

Okay, let's pretend Shadowrun doesn't give rules for starting
languages...

Okay, the FSI (Don't know what it stands for but it's a language rating
standard from the US Foriegn Service) was "taken" from RM Companion IV
(It's official RL stuff but it was just read in a RPG book :).

FSI Rtg Meaning SR Equiv
0 No ability 0
1 Basic concepts/poor grammar 1
2 General topics/understandable grammar 2
3 Near perfect grammar/almost any topics 3
4 Perfect grammar/Still noticably foreign accent/flow 4
5 Perfect grammar, accent, and flow (Native speaker). 5-6

I'm currently using the standard SR system but perhaps just assaigning a
5 or 6 in the char's native language would be better.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 01:41:56 EST

Message no. 14 >I just remembered another question I wanted to ask.
>
>How do most of you make languages work? I mean if someone is playing a
>character from Japan...why should he pick Japanese as his
>language...shouldnt it be a given? and wouldnt read/write be pretty
high
>instead of half language points?
>
> Ed
>
This is one of the few areas I dislike in 3ed. Even though people in
2060 are icon oreinted they still have to read. In fact the age of
Shadowrun is an information age, so it would be neccessary for people to
be able to read well and fast in order to assimilate the huge amount of
data they need to function. I would see the over all language skill
increasing at lease ammong those that have a high school or better
education.

I agree that the players native language should not take up laguage
skill points. Most people in the industrialised world speak a second
language with proficiency, except the US, (why should we speak your
language? you already learn to speak ours) which, with the increase of
the number of contries in North ammerica, I could see changing.

".o' 'b^'""'b -'b
,'.'o' t. = -'b -'t.
; d o' ___ _.--.. 8 - 'b ='b
dooo8< .o:':__;o. ,;;o88%%8bb - = 'b ='b
|^88^88=. .,x88/::/ | \\'::::::d%%%%%88%88888/%x88888
:-88ˆ%%L8'%'|::|_>-<-||%;;%;8%%=;:::=%8;;\%%%%\8888
|ˆ 88%%|HHHH|::| >-< |||;%;;8%%=;:::=%8;;;%%%%+|]88
| 88-88%%LL.%.%b::Y_|_Y/%|;;;;'%8%%oo88%;o%.;;;;+|]88
Yx88o88^^'"'^^%8boooood..-\H_Hd%P%%88%P^%%^'\;;;/%%88
'"\^\ ~"""""' d%P """^"
; = '+' - P
'.'.b :<%%> . : - d' - P
.'.b '788 ,'- = d' =.'
''.b. :..- :' P
'q.>b '^^^:::::,'
""^^
Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Rick Musci <Chocobo219@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 01:46:27 EST

Message no. 15 In a message dated 10/29/98 10:42:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
barnack@*******.COM writes:

> Most people in the industrialised world speak a second
> language with proficiency, except the US, (why should we speak your
> language? you already learn to speak ours)

Actually that's changing more and more. In a lot of high schools I've seen a
language is a requirement for each year of high school. My school, college-
prep, requires we take at least three years of a language and gain a level
three proficiency in the language. I'd be better at Spanish if my earlier
schools had prepped for this. The U.S. is changing, albeit slowly.

Steel Katana

From:	Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 01:25:38 -0600

Message no. 16 Hmm, I haven't picked up SR# yet, and my group hasn't played in
about 9 months, so my answer to the "how do you handle 'em" question could
well be in need of revision, but here goes:
1)Native Language(s)=Int+3 (native languages justified by
background story (where you grew up, what kind of education you got at an
early age, what kind of high school level education you got, etc.)
Normally this would not come into play unless you wanted to do something
really extraordinary with it (like wriite a novel or something).
2)"Language Points"=Int
A)Languages in the same group(s) as your native
lanuage(s): 1/2 LP per level (max level = nat. lang.)
B)Languages in other groups: 1 LP per level
This makes a reasonable amount of linguistic sense (from what I've
been told, I'm a chemist by trade, haha!) in that languages close to your
native tongue are easier to pick up. My personal exp. backs this up:
Russian is farther away from english than, say, German but it is still in
the indo-european language group. I'm not saying it was easy, mind, but
it at least was comrehensible, whereas when my girlfriend tried to get me
started on Japanese, my mind just couldn't extract any meaning from the
symbols. Its like the thought processes that went tinto it, the frame of
mind neccesary, was totally different.
I instituted the LP system and NL thing primaril;y because I felt
that the runners had enough things to spend skill points on if they wanted
to survive without wasting them on languages... Essentially I just
assumed that they had ample educational opportunities (either formal
eduacation or chip/web/street based) in their pre-running life to have
picked up whatever languages they did... I've never had anyone want to
play a character < mid-20s so I've never had to consider modifying this...

*****************Michael Orion Jackson******************
***********TAMS Class of 96/UT Class of 2000************
*********************Random Quote:**********************
*Chemistry is not for the soft-brained or weak-hearted.*
********************************************************

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:13:03 +0100

Message no. 17 According to Robert Watkins, at 15:10 on 30 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> As a matter of fact, it _is_ a given. :) That's why you get a free language
> up to the Intelligence. It's the choice of native language that's up to the
> player.
>
> (Unless SR3 has come along and changed all of this, of course)

In SR3, you get a number of skill points specifically for languages equal
to your Intelligence multiplied by 1.5, rounded down, and you can use
Knowledge Skill Points to buy more points in languages. Additionally, you
receive Read & Write in a language at half the level of the actual
language.

This means that SR3 characters have to buy their native language with
skill points, rather than getting it completely for free (but since the
points are free, in essence so's the language).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:07:54 EST

Message no. 18 >In a message dated 10/29/98 10:42:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>barnack@*******.COM writes:
>
>> Most people in the industrialised world speak a second
>> language with proficiency, except the US, (why should we speak
>> your language? you already learn to speak ours)
>
>Actually that's changing more and more. In a lot of high schools I've
>seen a language is a requirement for each year of high school. My
>school, college-prep, requires we take at least three years of a
>language and gain a level three proficiency in the language. I'd be
>better at Spanish if my earlier schools had prepped for this. The >U.S.
is changing, albeit slowly.
>
>Steel Katana
>
I happen to live in the States as well and am seeing the trend as well.
This is part of that which leads to my assumption that those in the UCAS
will also have to learn a second language.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 07:50:39 -0700

Message no. 19 For the mere cost of a Thaum, D. Ghost wrote:
/
/ Whoops ... deleted original message asking about how we (ShadowRN) handle
/ Languages.
/
/ Okay, let's pretend Shadowrun doesn't give rules for starting
/ languages...
/
/ Okay, the FSI (Don't know what it stands for but it's a language rating
/ standard from the US Foriegn Service) was "taken" from RM Companion IV
/ (It's official RL stuff but it was just read in a RPG book :).
/
/ FSI Rtg Meaning SR Equiv
/ 0 No ability 0
/ 1 Basic concepts/poor grammar 1
/ 2 General topics/understandable grammar 2
/ 3 Near perfect grammar/almost any topics 3
/ 4 Perfect grammar/Still noticably foreign accent/flow 4
/ 5 Perfect grammar, accent, and flow (Native speaker). 5-6
/
/ I'm currently using the standard SR system but perhaps just assaigning a
/ 5 or 6 in the char's native language would be better.

I would stick with SR's system when assigning a rating to the
character's native language. Ever tried to understand someone that
isn't very "bright"?

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:53:53 -0500

Message no. 20 Lady Jestyr wrote:
> [ Ed wrote: ]
>
> >Would you say the read/write could be higher if they had an intelligence of
> >6 or more?
>
> We didn't like this rule at all - we figured that some characters would
> have Read/Write as high as their general language skill, others would be
> virtually illiterate.

The silly Read/Write rule is one of the many things I dropped in house
rules when we started in SR3. I fundamentally disagree with FASA's
premise on this -- as our society has become more technological, the need
for literacy has gotten MORE, not less, pervasive. I don't think this
will change in the 2060's; more information means you need higher
information density in order to handle it quickly. It takes a lot longer
to hear something than to read it; therefore, industrial society would
mandate that reading is still a critical skill. I can see what you mean
about gangers & such, Lady J, but characters like that didn't fit our
campaign anyway, so I just didn't worry about it.

Besides, the math FASA was using is ludicrous. One-half the spoken
skill? Either you're literate or you aren't. If you can speak English at
6, how could you only read at 3? You have trouble sounding the big words
out or something?

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net

From:	Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 07:00:09 -0800

Message no. 21 > >> Most people in the industrialised world speak a second
> >> language with proficiency, except the US, (why should we speak
> >> your language? you already learn to speak ours)
> >
> >Actually that's changing more and more. In a lot of high schools I've
> >seen a language is a requirement for each year of high school. My
> >school, college-prep, requires we take at least three years of a
> >language and gain a level three proficiency in the language. I'd be
> >better at Spanish if my earlier schools had prepped for this. The >U.S.
> is changing, albeit slowly.
> >
> I happen to live in the States as well and am seeing the trend as well.
> This is part of that which leads to my assumption that those in the UCAS
> will also have to learn a second language.

I disagree. And let me say why. While more people may study and
learn a language; they then go on to live their lives in the USA with little
contact with native speakers of the language they studied. This means skill
goes down and becomes based on outdated modes of speach. Americans are one of
the most isolated people in the world. We import almost nothing of world culture
and travel outside our borders very little save for short tourist hits among
the well off.
Until we become more culturally open; second language skills will not
prosper. They'll atrophy from lack of sufficient use.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site

From:	Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:13:31 -0500

Message no. 22 On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Steve Eley wrote:

<snip>
->Besides, the math FASA was using is ludicrous. One-half the spoken
->skill? Either you're literate or you aren't. If you can speak English at
->6, how could you only read at 3? You have trouble sounding the big words
->out or something?

What about individuals who can read better than they can speak?
As an example, I was deaf for the first three years of my life. Needless
to say, my communications skills were lacking but, by reading books with
pictures and such, and having the pictures and the letters pointed out to
me, I learned how to read before I could speak. Also due to this, I tend
to be better in writing up speeches before I speak them, at least when it
comes to difficult grammatical structure. At present, there are no rules
to 'create' such people who are better at writing than speaking.
Perhaps a Int * 2 = Language points, which can be spent towards
verbal or reading/written skills as determined by the players? This would
create, on average, one point less than the current method if you were to
add the Language skills and read/write skills together, which is still
fairly close.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:15:55 -0500

Message no. 23 On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

-> I disagree. And let me say why. While more people may study and
->learn a language; they then go on to live their lives in the USA with little
->contact with native speakers of the language they studied. This means skill
->goes down and becomes based on outdated modes of speach. Americans are one of
->the most isolated people in the world. We import almost nothing of world culture
->and travel outside our borders very little save for short tourist hits among
->the well off.
-> Until we become more culturally open; second language skills will not
->prosper. They'll atrophy from lack of sufficient use.

I would love to say you're wrong on this one, but I would be
lying from a personal vantage point. I can still read the foreign
languages I had learned in junior high & high school about as well as I
could then, but I couldn't formulate a sentence in a different language
other than English due to lack of experience (except maybe Spanish, which
I use infrequently).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 07:15:45 -0800

Message no. 24 > > >Would you say the read/write could be higher if they had an intelligence of
> > >6 or more?
> >
> > We didn't like this rule at all - we figured that some characters would
> > have Read/Write as high as their general language skill, others would be
> > virtually illiterate.
>
> The silly Read/Write rule is one of the many things I dropped in house
> rules when we started in SR3. I fundamentally disagree with FASA's
> premise on this -- as our society has become more technological, the need
> for literacy has gotten MORE, not less, pervasive. I don't think this
> will change in the 2060's; more information means you need higher
> information density in order to handle it quickly. It takes a lot longer
> to hear something than to read it; therefore, industrial society would
> mandate that reading is still a critical skill. I can see what you mean
> about gangers & such, Lady J, but characters like that didn't fit our
> campaign anyway, so I just didn't worry about it.

I can see where FASA was coming from. We are becoming a culture of
sound bytes and visual imagry. As the Web becomes more graphic and even moves
to the realm of VR information is less and less in book form.
Think about this; more and people in our society do not read other
than that which they have to.
If I could package all the info into images, icons, sound bytes, etc...
why learn to read beyond the basics?
All you need is enough to fill in the words placed on the info graphic.
And once the graphic becomes a common icon you no longer try to read it
anyway.
Sure SR is high tech. But it's all in packages. preassembled parts.
You don't need to know how to melt the plastic into shapes to play with the
legos anymore.
Of course there would be an elete class of people who are fully
literate and can 'melt that plastic down'. But they would be rare. Even
rarer still would be people who read for pleasure. Why bother? It's all on
simsense anyway.

> Besides, the math FASA was using is ludicrous. One-half the spoken
> skill? Either you're literate or you aren't. If you can speak English at
> 6, how could you only read at 3? You have trouble sounding the big words
> out or something?

Yes. That's how it ussually is anyway. Semi literacy is very common.
I have a cousin who takes a minute per word. Of course his problem is due to
his mother's drug habit... But that's the common way it manifests. I've worked
as an assistant in ESL classes and you see much the same thing from people
adjusting to an aphabet system or who come from nonliterate cultures. Very
slow reading and difficulty putting meaning into the words; even when they
can sound them out perfectly.

Try it with Chinese sometime. You may grasp a few characters; reading
them slowly as your mind tries to place the images. And you may even grab a few
you know and string them together into something that seems to make sense but
for which a native chinese would be baffled about.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site

From:	Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 07:23:33 -0800

Message no. 25 > <snip>
> ->Besides, the math FASA was using is ludicrous. One-half the spoken
> ->skill? Either you're literate or you aren't. If you can speak English at
> ->6, how could you only read at 3? You have trouble sounding the big words
> ->out or something?
>
> What about individuals who can read better than they can speak?
> Perhaps a Int * 2 = Language points, which can be spent towards
> verbal or reading/written skills as determined by the players? This would
> create, on average, one point less than the current method if you were to
> add the Language skills and read/write skills together, which is still
> fairly close.

Well, the rules do say that the GM should make exceptions when logical.
And you are the exception to the rule. Plus there's the Int * % knowledge
points you get that are spendable on languages as well.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site

From:	Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:46:11 EST

Message no. 26 >> >> Most people in the industrialised world speak a second
>> >> language with proficiency, except the US, (why should we speak
>> >> your language? you already learn to speak ours)
>> >
>> >Actually that's changing more and more. In a lot of high schools >>
>I've seen a language is a requirement for each year of high
>> >school. My school, college-prep, requires we take at least three >>
>years of a language and gain a level three proficiency in the
>> >language. I'd be better at Spanish if my earlier schools had
>> >prepped for this. The U.S. is changing, albeit slowly.
>> >
>> I happen to live in the States as well and am seeing the trend as >>
well. This is part of that which leads to my assumption that those >>
in the UCAS will also have to learn a second language.
>
> I disagree. And let me say why. While more people may study
>and learn a language; they then go on to live their lives in the USA
>with little contact with native speakers of the language they >studied.
This means skill goes down and becomes based on outdated >modes of
speach. Americans are one of the most isolated people in the >world. We
import almost nothing of world culture and travel outside >our borders
very little save for short tourist hits among the well >off.
> Until we become more culturally open; second language skills
>will not prosper. They'll atrophy from lack of sufficient use.
>
>
While this is true, more and more americans are traveling abroad because
of the globilization of commerce. In a world such as postulated in
Shadowrun, one is forced to deal with a larger number of languages and
cultures right next door. This would create a situation similar to
europe today.

".o' 'b^'""'b -'b
,'.'o' t. = -'b -'t.
; d o' ___ _.--.. 8 - 'b ='b
dooo8< .o:':__;o. ,;;o88%%8bb - = 'b ='b
|^88^88=. .,x88/::/ | \\'::::::d%%%%%88%88888/%x88888
:-88ˆ%%L8'%'|::|_>-<-||%;;%;8%%=;:::=%8;;\%%%%\8888
|ˆ 88%%|HHHH|::| >-< |||;%;;8%%=;:::=%8;;;%%%%+|]88
| 88-88%%LL.%.%b::Y_|_Y/%|;;;;'%8%%oo88%;o%.;;;;+|]88
Yx88o88^^'"'^^%8boooood..-\H_Hd%P%%88%P^%%^'\;;;/%%88
'"\^\ ~"""""' d%P """^"
; = '+' - P
'.'.b :<%%> . : - d' - P
.'.b '788 ,'- = d' =.'
''.b. :..- :' P
'q.>b '^^^:::::,'
""^^
Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:28:01 -0600

Message no. 27 At 10:20 PM 10/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
> Actually the book even says to make it a GM call:
>
>P. 59, Language skills, third paragraph.

Yeah I read that part but wanted to see how everyone else worked it out.

> As for Japanese; why should they be any more literate than anyone
else?

I was just using Japanese as an example. :) As much as I love Sushi I am
still an American Man!

Thanks again for the help everyone!

Ed

- - - - - - - - - - - - Cut Here - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
JADG Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/jadg/index.html
The 3D Ark Page: http://www.3dark.com/

From:	Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:34:55 -0500

Message no. 28 Brian Wong wrote:
>
> > The silly Read/Write rule is one of the many things I dropped in house
> > rules when we started in SR3. I fundamentally disagree with FASA's
> > premise on this -- as our society has become more technological, the need
> > for literacy has gotten MORE, not less, pervasive. I don't think this
> > will change in the 2060's; more information means you need higher
> > information density in order to handle it quickly. It takes a lot longer
> > to hear something than to read it; therefore, industrial society would
> > mandate that reading is still a critical skill.
>
> I can see where FASA was coming from. We are becoming a culture of
> sound bytes and visual imagry. As the Web becomes more graphic and even moves
> to the realm of VR information is less and less in book form.

I urge you to name one useful Web site where average reading skills aren't
required. (By "useful" I mean it has to impart some information beyond
simply displaying itself. Picture archives and Shockwave galleries don't
cout.)

> Think about this; more and people in our society do not read other
> than that which they have to.

I disagree. Do you have evidence to support that this number is
decreasing? Remember, until the mass-market paperback revolution 50 years
ago books (other than the Bible) were unusual in most American
households. Now it's a multi-billion dollar industry. More people read
and buy books in the 1990's than at any other time in history. Book sales
apparently peaked in 1994, but since then they haven't gone down so much
as stabilized close to that peak.

And now we've got the Internet -- and apocalyptic pretensions and Wired!
pseudoculture aside, the Internet is still fundamentally a medium of the
written word. In practical applications today, sound and video are
augmenting written text, not replacing it.

So please. Show me how "more and more people in our society" are
declining in their reading. This seems to be one of those things
"everyone knows," but no one ever has any data to support. I maintain
that worldwide literacy is the highest it's ever been -- and it's not
going down.

As a closer-to-home example, you don't "have" to read this mailing list
post. But you are. And this forum would be exceptionally hard to manage
with all these people if we were speaking instead of writing.

> If I could package all the info into images, icons, sound bytes, etc...
> why learn to read beyond the basics?

Because you can't "package all the info." You've ignored what I said
about information density in my original post. For moving large amounts
of complex information quickly, the written word is *much* more efficient
than the spoken word. It takes most people less time to read than to
listen. Pictures and graphs have their place in analysis, but only in
specialized cases can they actually act as data.

In SR, at least in the average jobs in which the average sarariman works,
I believe that there will be a constant (or possibly increasing) need to
move large amounts of information quickly. Your job could be augmented by
smartframes and semi-autonomous knowbots, but they won't do all the
thinking for you. You'd need to be able to analyze and report on data
efficiently. And that means reading and writing.

> All you need is enough to fill in the words placed on the info graphic.
> And once the graphic becomes a common icon you no longer try to read it
> anyway.

Huh? What's an info graphic? Could you give me an example of one? Could
you then explain how "info graphics" could be used to quickly and easily
tell us, say, how electrical induction works? Or the auditor's report for
your local business unit within Ares? Or that you shouldn't change the
battery cells on your Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit while the motor is
running?

> Sure SR is high tech. But it's all in packages. preassembled parts.
> You don't need to know how to melt the plastic into shapes to play with the
> legos anymore.

I will concede that you could probably get by successfully in the SR world
without literacy. You can do that today, and you could ALWAYS do that,
throughout history. But you'll have a very hard time finding a decent
job. More than today, even, the major industries in Shadowrun seem to be
information-based. And you can't work in information without being able
to read.

> Of course there would be an elete class of people who are fully
> literate and can 'melt that plastic down'. But they would be rare.
Again, if you can explain to me how even a low-level bureaucrat in a SR
megacorp can do his/her job efficiently without having to read or write
anything, assuming the amount of information involved is equivalent or
higher to today's typical information flow, I'll consider this argument to
have merit.

That, or I suppose you could argue that low-level bureaucrats in SR
megacorps are elite and rare. But I think the source material refutes you
on that. >8->

> [ . . . ] Even
> rarer still would be people who read for pleasure. Why bother? It's all on
> simsense anyway.

Bull. As I said, more people read for pleasure in the 1990's then ever
before. Why? "It's all on TV anyway..." I could see reading declining
as other entertainment competed for one's attention, but it wouldn't be
practically unheard-of.

Incidentally, there are a few studies already out that TV watching is
going *down* somewhat in households with computers. This shouldn't
surprise anyone -- the Internet is turning out to be a better
distraction. But as I've said earlier, the Net is fundamentally a medium
of the written word. Even in networked computer games, you've got to type
to chat with your opponents/allies. This means people on-line are reading
more than they would be if they were watching TV.

The Shadowrun source material supports this, too. Look at all the IC
stuff in sourcebooks. They're copies of text material, alleged to be
posted on Shadowland, with written comments by alleged shadowrunners. If
all these shadowrunners are supposed to be barely literate, then Nigel
Findley et al. have sure done a poor job portraying them...

> > Besides, the math FASA was using is ludicrous. One-half the spoken
> > skill? Either you're literate or you aren't. If you can speak English at
> > 6, how could you only read at 3? You have trouble sounding the big words
> > out or something?
>
> Yes. That's how it ussually is anyway. Semi literacy is very common.
> I have a cousin who takes a minute per word. Of course his problem is due to
> his mother's drug habit... But that's the common way it manifests.
But would you say he speaks English at a skill equivalency of 6?

> [ . . . ] I've worked
> as an assistant in ESL classes and you see much the same thing from people
> adjusting to an aphabet system or who come from nonliterate cultures. Very
> slow reading and difficulty putting meaning into the words; even when they
> can sound them out perfectly.

I'm not talking about people to whom English is a foreign language; or
people who have had legitimate physical or mental difficulties, such as
your cousin or Fixer (who said he could read better than he could speak
when he was younger.) Those are all exceptional cases, and aren't really
addressed by FASA's given rationale. If you really needed to represent
them, you could define them as Flaws.

I'm talking about the mainstream, average character in Shadowrun. I can't
think of a reason why an intelligent, unimpaired person who spoke English
at a high Skill Rating would read it at a lower one. I do know
intelligent people who *write* rather badly, but I would maintain that the
skills involved in good writing are separate from the language itself.

> Try it with Chinese sometime. You may grasp a few characters; reading
> them slowly as your mind tries to place the images. And you may even grab a few
> you know and string them together into something that seems to make sense but
> for which a native chinese would be baffled about.

I'll take your word on it.

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net

From:	K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:52:49 EST

Message no. 29 In a message dated 10/30/1998 9:53:47 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
sfeley@***.NET writes:

>
> Besides, the math FASA was using is ludicrous. One-half the spoken
> skill? Either you're literate or you aren't. If you can speak English at
> 6, how could you only read at 3? You have trouble sounding the big words
> out or something?

No Steve, you are getting the language skills to communicate through direct
inundation to the speakers of the language and NOT to the written material
that language contains. I know a LOT of people who are downright awesome at
communicating their intents, meanings, and desires, in a verbal manner, but
who can't read higher than the 5th grade (as an example, and I'm using
Illinois standards, NOT Indiana ones).

This is the same thing. Please, do NOT mingle Verbal Communication (which is
essentially what the SR Language system is) with Written Communication. The
SR Universe is vastly different than our (US standards) own. Remember, visual
representation of stuff is now (in SR) iconic based, and not text longform
(written). If a language is being taught to someone, it is probably (using
the current V-Tech devices as an example) where a child, or individual of any
age, sits in front of a screen, touches the image of the apple, the machine
phonically states the word "Apple", and then the peruser mimics the word
phonically/verbally as well. Due to language/voice recognition technology
(which AT&T has now at extremely capable levels) it would be possible to learn
a spoken language much easier and with far greater speed than it would be
learn a written one. In the above example for instance, the user repeats the
word, and if s/he does it correctly, the device reciprocates with some form of
positive feedback (neat music, pretty picture, or even a coupon that allows
that person to save up and go get lunch from the machine downstairs...which
btw, doesn't have anything Applish inside it, instead going for the bag of
nacho-chips and candy-bar).

So, again, please do not make a direct co-relation to our current method(s) of
instruction, it doesn't work. Because the higher our level of technology
goes, wider the expanses of Monkeydom will become.

-K

From:	K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:59:15 EST

Message no. 30 In a message dated 10/30/1998 10:03:23 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
rook@*****.INFINEX.COM writes:

> Until we become more culturally open; second language skills will
not
> prosper. They'll atrophy from lack of sufficient use.
>

Rook, your response is also of someone who is simply NOT getting it with
regards to cultural advancement. And I am going to state now, that I am using
the term "advancement" as a military maneuver, and not an enlightening one.

Secondary language skills are becoming more and more widely required, even in
places like good ol' Lafayette here. We have one of the highest growth rates
for "non-english speaking residents" in Indiana (I'll ignore Gary,
Indianapolis, and Bloomington for now). Doing business on a "street level",
meaning daily retail things like grocery shopping or getting one's car fixed,
is reaching the state that if you know more than one language, you are likely
going to attract more business and on a more diverse level.

The "Point and Guess" level of business is expanding, but if you want an
option to something (what's the difference in the pollo's??? Why the hell
should I care about your choice of Shirts???) then you have to learn what
other's are saying.

I can look at SR with a different POV I guess. I don't have to sit back and
think of why the United States fell apart, I can readily see it. No one is
truly willing in government to sit down and listen to "them" in
"their" terms,
instead it has to be on "our" terms, and eventually the "their side"
began to
outnumber "our side".

Remember the old phrase of "Knowledge is Power". Well Language and
Communication are the keys to understanding that power.

-K

From:	Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:51:38 -0800

Message no. 31 On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 00:28:12 -0600, D. Ghost wrote:

>FSI Rtg Meaning SR Equiv
> 0 No ability 0
> 1 Basic concepts/poor grammar 1
> 2 General topics/understandable grammar 2
> 3 Near perfect grammar/almost any topics 3
> 4 Perfect grammar/Still noticably foreign accent/flow 4
> 5 Perfect grammar, accent, and flow (Native speaker). 5-6
>
>I'm currently using the standard SR system but perhaps just assaigning a
>5 or 6 in the char's native language would be better.

I will point out that a large percentage of the North American population couldn't utter a
gramatically correct statement if their life depended on it, so giving people a language
skill of 6 regardless of their background and/or intelligence is inappropriate.

From:	Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:48:57 -0500

Message no. 32 On 10/30/98, at 9:53 AM, Steve Eley wrote:

>Besides, the math FASA was using is ludicrous. One-half the spoken
>skill? Either you're literate or you aren't. If you can speak English at
>6, how could you only read at 3? You have trouble sounding the big words
>out or something?

Here's another point my group has pondered before... Besides the table
presented earlier about the different skill rating = language proficiency
in accent and such, how does the skill rating affect the character's
vocabulary? I imagine the lower ratings as being able to say such pleasant
things as "fuuuud" and "keeeellllllll," but a rating 6 might be able
to
tell you about "The post-antrophic affects in the anthropormorphic
degradation of the capilary diaphragm as it relates to antisystolic shock."
The rating stands for all of these - fluency in grammar, pronunciation,
and vocabulary. Thus, we had PC's having to "dumb-down" their speech to
talk to other PC's.
This also relates to the speaking versus r/w question. Sure, you may be
able to speak at level 6, but if you come across those words, can you
really understand them at first glance? Or, if we take a more recent point
in the thread, if you've learned them by reading, do you necessarily know
how to say them? I think perhaps the default might not be the best, but a
difference is definately worth having.

Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."

From:	Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:52:41 -0500

Message no. 33 On 10/30/98, at 7:15 AM, Brian Wong wrote:

> Think about this; more and people in our society do not read other
>than that which they have to.
> If I could package all the info into images, icons, sound bytes,
etc...
>why learn to read beyond the basics?

If you want a nice example of this, check out _The Diamond Age_ by Neal
Stephenson. His low-class characters survive by using "MediaGlyphs," which
basically is all they're exposed to. All the appliances and public
services use them, and so they are not exposed to a standard "written"
language, but instead have animated cursors that enable them to understand
the concepts of the buttons. Not in the Chinese sense, either, these are
full-color animated icons that actively describe the concept.

Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."

From:	Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:32:27 -0500

Message no. 34 At 11:51 AM 10/30/98 -0800, Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM> wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 00:28:12 -0600, D. Ghost wrote:
>
>>FSI Rtg Meaning SR Equiv
>> 0 No ability 0
>> 1 Basic concepts/poor grammar 1
>> 2 General topics/understandable grammar 2
>> 3 Near perfect grammar/almost any topics 3
>> 4 Perfect grammar/Still noticably foreign accent/flow 4
>> 5 Perfect grammar, accent, and flow (Native speaker). 5-6
>>
>>I'm currently using the standard SR system but perhaps just assaigning a
>>5 or 6 in the char's native language would be better.
>
>I will point out that a large percentage of the North American population
>couldn't utter a
>gramatically correct statement if their life depended on it, so giving
people >a language
>skill of 6 regardless of their background and/or intelligence is
>inappropriate.
>

=) Indeed.

As a matter of fact, by this scale, most people I know rate at about a 2 in
English (Native speakers) and maybe a 3 in their given dialect.

(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:39:11 -0700

Message no. 35 For the mere cost of a Thaum, Cernunnos Morrigu wrote:
/
/ Here's another point my group has pondered before... Besides the table
/ presented earlier about the different skill rating = language proficiency
/ in accent and such, how does the skill rating affect the character's
/ vocabulary?

IMO the character's vocabulary would be based on their skills and
knowledge skills. If you have Biotech, you can understand medical
terminology. If you have a special knowledge of military history then
you can understand military speak. Etc.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:13:55 -0600

Message no. 36 On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 07:50:39 -0700 David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> writes:
>For the mere cost of a Thaum, D. Ghost wrote:
<SNIP>
>/ I'm currently using the standard SR system but perhaps just assaigning
a
>/ 5 or 6 in the char's native language would be better.

>I would stick with SR's system when assigning a rating to the
>character's native language. Ever tried to understand someone that
>isn't very "bright"?

Treat that as a dialect. It's a variation of <insert language> and if
you happen to speak thast variation, the two of you could speak freely.
If not, treat it as defaulting.

To further Illustrate, If two people have a rating of 1 in a language,
they will have extreme difficulty communicating with each other.
However, if two people happen to "not ver 'bright'" in the same way with
the same language, they'll be able to communicate freely. In the last
case, the only restriction on communication topics will be their
knowledge base, not their linguistic capacities.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:41:42 +0000

Message no. 37 Steve Eley wrote:
> I urge you to name one useful Web site where average reading skills aren't
> required. (By "useful" I mean it has to impart some information beyond
> simply displaying itself. Picture archives and Shockwave galleries don't
> cout.)

I would like to make two points here.
First, the keyword here is 'average' - average reading skill might
well be enough unless you're a technical worker or computer
specialist.

Secondly, conveying ideas is a lot easier in a verbal medium than a
written one. Almost any NG or mailing list member should be perfectly
aware of this. Misunderstandings, cross - purpose discussions etc. is
common, while if we'd been communicating verbally they'd be solved a
lot faster. So unless the TN's for conveying ideas was different for
written material than verbal, writing skill should be lower, simply
because utilizing it effectively to convey and explain concepts takes
a lot more time and effort.

BTW, chinese letters change meaning with context. There is, for
instance, a character for woman. What does it mean if you have two
characters for woman together?

AN ARGUMENT!

I find that rather rich.. ;)

(And no, I'm not kidding. It *might* be japanese calligraphy instead,
though.).
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Jennifer Baker <Oxyria@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:42:56 EST

Message no. 38 In a message dated 98-10-30 10:03:21 EST, Brian Wongwrite:

<< I disagree. And let me say why. While more people may study and
learn a language; they then go on to live their lives in the USA with little
contact with native speakers of the language they studied. This means skill
goes down and becomes based on outdated modes of speach. Americans are one of
the most isolated people in the world. We import almost nothing of world
culture
and travel outside our borders very little save for short tourist hits among
the well off.
Until we become more culturally open; second language skills will not
prosper. They'll atrophy from lack of sufficient use. >>

Hmmm... Well, Brian, you and I live in very different parts of the USA, then.
When I walk into the local grocery store, I'm as likely to hear someone
speaking Spanish, Japanese, or Russian as English (of course, I decided to
study French in school... *grin wryly*). And those aren't tourists... if I
were to go shopping, or to the zoo, or any other 'tourist-y' locations, I'd
hear several more languages. I live in rural area (high labor pool of
hispanics) about 20 minutes out of Portland ("gateway to the Pacific" -- heavy
Japanese business interests). And Portland is a small city compared to
others. Having bilingual (or multi-) characters seems perfectly natural to
me.

Jennie
(who would like to just _once_ understand what it was she ordered at the local
deli...)

From:	Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:08:26 -0800

Message no. 39 > << I disagree. And let me say why. While more people may study and
> learn a language; they then go on to live their lives in the USA with little
> contact with native speakers of the language they studied. This means skill
> goes down and becomes based on outdated modes of speach. Americans are one of
> the most isolated people in the world. We import almost nothing of world
> culture
> and travel outside our borders very little save for short tourist hits among
> the well off.
> Until we become more culturally open; second language skills will not
> prosper. They'll atrophy from lack of sufficient use. >>
>
> Hmmm... Well, Brian, you and I live in very different parts of the USA, then.

I live in San Francisco. The most culturally diverse city in the world.

Normal languages in muy neighborhood in order of frequency:

Chinese
Russian
Korean
Jewish
English

Though most of the out of town whites think it's all Japanese...
which is beside the point...

The point I have is that most american do not cross socialize. Instead
we get mad and even violent at the sound of languages other than english (not
me btw; I use Korean at home so having a problem with another language with
be hypocritical for me, by go as close as my step father and I find english
only advocates).
It's so bad that it even pervades when we travel. I remember a situation
when I was living in Korea where I found a US GI accosting a Korean in Korea
because the Korean had used Korean and didn't know english. When I told the
story to my american friends there; they sided with the GI in all but 1 case.
Saying the 'gook' should've known english since there's so many GI's there.

Americans pick up only the rudiments of foreign language in most
cases when they study it. And few retain it long. Those that travel use
phrase books or demand the local use english (a former manager for a
semiconductor company I worked with almost blew off a $100 sale to Samsung
because the Samsung engineers had confered with each other in Korean during a
business meeting at Samsung, in Korea. The US manager was so furious he left
for the states and demanded that in future only english be allowed in any
meetings. Samsung chose to comply strangley enough, as they wanted the product).

So I do see multiple language use here in the city. Among immigrants
and rare people like myself. But the general population does not make the
effort beyond satisfying a class requirement and then quickly forgetting
what they learned.
That could change. But we have a major cultural push for english
only in the USA. So I don't see it too likely in the near future. But
maybe by SR's time. My own perception though is most North American nations
in the world of SR would be using english out of it being the historical
language. Even if the gov start pushing Souix, people still learn
english as children and all it would do is create a class division.

I just don't see Americans as being broad minded enough to accept
bilingualism. We'll hire people who speak a second language. But we don't
push it in our own children. We point out immigrants that live near us
and speak other languages; then we go to the polls and vote to remove
support for services in their languages...
We live in a double standard.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:55:01 -0600

Message no. 40 :How do most of you make languages work? I mean if someone is playing a
:character from Japan...why should he pick Japanese as his
:language...shouldnt it be a given? and wouldnt read/write be pretty high
:instead of half language points?

You get free language point's equal to 1.5 int. (correct for memory)
You can spend them as you wish. I know native Chicagoins who don't speek
English as well as Polish. As for R/W, 205X society is semi- literate, at
best (its not needed for most tasks, and computers can do it for you).
You can spend language or knowledge points to raise your R/W if your
character is one of the rare types who spends time reading.

Mongoose

From:	Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:13:32 -0800

Message no. 41 > Americans pick up only the rudiments of foreign language in most
> cases when they study it. And few retain it long. Those that travel use
> phrase books or demand the local use english (a former manager for a
> semiconductor company I worked with almost blew off a $100 sale to Samsung
> because the Samsung engineers had confered with each other in Korean during a
> business meeting at Samsung, in Korea. The US manager was so furious he left
> for the states and demanded that in future only english be allowed in any
> meetings. Samsung chose to comply strangley enough, as they wanted the product).

Change $100 to $100 million. :) Ten robots at $10 million a piece,
plus 20 more if the first 10 worked out well...
This was of course before the current economic troubles in asia.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:10:55 EST

Message no. 42 In a message dated 10/30/98 12:03:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
equine@***********.COM writes:

> I just remembered another question I wanted to ask.
>
> How do most of you make languages work? I mean if someone is playing a
> character from Japan...why should he pick Japanese as his
> language...shouldnt it be a given? and wouldnt read/write be pretty high
> instead of half language points?

Okay, as for someone from Japan having Japanese as their native language is
something that should happen, but that is not always the case with a lot of
people and the choices they make for their player characters.

As for reading and writing skills, most people in SR have enough of a basic
skill to read something along the lines of a typical daily newspaper with
little difficulties, however, SR has become more of a society which relies on
symbols and icons (same thing) which represent what they want to say, but in a
more simple manner. I would consider needing a reading and writing skill as
something akin to a vehicle piloting skill and the average person, whenever
you are driving under normal conditions, no driving test needs to be made, but
once the situation changes to something far more difficult then the vehicle
piloting skill comes into play. And getting back to languages, I would say
that most people under most circumstances can read most anything but when the
wording becomes thick or technical or a bit of both then the reading/writing
skill should be used then.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 21:12:38 -0600

Message no. 43 On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:08:26 -0800 Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
writes:
>><< I disagree. And let me say why. While more people may study and
>>learn a language; they then go on to live their lives in the USA with
little
>>contact with native speakers of the language they studied. This means
skill
>>goes down and becomes based on outdated modes of speach. Americans are
one of
>>the most isolated people in the world. We import almost nothing of
world
>>culture
>>and travel outside our borders very little save for short tourist hits
among
>>the well off.
>> Until we become more culturally open; second language skills
will not
>>prosper. They'll atrophy from lack of sufficient use. >>

>> Hmmm... Well, Brian, you and I live in very different parts of the
USA, then.

> I live in San Francisco. The most culturally diverse city in
>the world.
>
>Normal languages in muy neighborhood in order of frequency:
>
>Chinese
>Russian
>Korean
>Jewish

I think you mean Hebrew. :)

>English

Hmmm. Really? IN that order? Interesting. In my neighborhood it's
pretty much strictly English ... Neighbors accross the street are ...
Korean (I *think*). We're Portuguesse. At school, I've heard more
languages than I can indentify (With Korean/Chinese being most common
after English and the Spanish after them.).

> Though most of the out of town whites think it's all Japanese...
>which is beside the point...

Heh. That's interesting ... if anything, I'd think they'd confuse it for
Chinese ... Is there a particularly predominant Japanese (cultural)
presence in San Francisco?

> The point I have is that most american do not cross socialize.
Instead
>we get mad and even violent at the sound of languages other than english

<SNIP>
> Americans pick up only the rudiments of foreign language in most
>cases when they study it. And few retain it long. Those that travel use
>phrase books or demand the local use english

When I visit Portugal, I try very hard to speak in Portuguese at times,
and I also try very hard to understand what is said in Portuguese around
me. I also speak some French (I count Portuguese and Spanish as one
language because when I speak either one, I'm really speaking a fusion of
the two) plus a few (literally a few, like two or three) words of German,
and Japanese. I think I used to know some Chinese. I can draw (Note
that I said draw, not write) the Japanese Kujin (is that the right
word/character set) symbol for bi (Beauty). How would you rate my grasp
of Languages? :)

>(a former manager for a
>semiconductor company I worked with almost blew off a $100 sale to
Samsung
>because the Samsung engineers had confered with each other in Korean
during a
>business meeting at Samsung, in Korea. The US manager was so furious he
left
>for the states and demanded that in future only english be allowed in
any
>meetings. Samsung chose to comply strangley enough, as they wanted the
>product).

I'm tempting to say that's silly but I can see a rationale for it. It
may not be a matter of intolerance but instead a matter of manners. It's
just plain rude to exclude someone from a conversation like that. It's
like wispering in front of them. It doesn't matter whether the engineers
confering should be a private conversation or not. The fact that they
consulted within earshot in a language that the manager couldn't
understand could be taken as an insult (ie, as a lack of trust.).

> So I do see multiple language use here in the city. Among
immigrants
>and rare people like myself. But the general population does not make
the
>effort beyond satisfying a class requirement and then quickly forgetting
>what they learned.

It depends ... I think in Houston, Texas, there's a larger than average
number of bilingual (English/Spanish) people because there are a lot of
jobs that will pay more or require it.

> That could change. But we have a major cultural push for english
>only in the USA. So I don't see it too likely in the near future. But
>maybe by SR's time. My own perception though is most North American
nations
>in the world of SR would be using english out of it being the historical
>language. Even if the gov start pushing Souix, people still learn
>english as children and all it would do is create a class division.
> I just don't see Americans as being broad minded enough to
accept
>bilingualism. We'll hire people who speak a second language. But we
don't
>push it in our own children. We point out immigrants that live near us
>and speak other languages; then we go to the polls and vote to remove
>support for services in their languages...
> We live in a double standard.

I think the problem is that the US stresses having a piece of paper
saying you know whatever subject too much over actually knowing that
subject. (Like getting hired because you took Spanish in High School
even though you can't remember any word that hasn't been used in a Taco
Bell commercial ...)

I think, however, the US -is- starting to "push it in our children"... I
don't know why but I just get that feeling. (Though the US is pushing
computer skills even more.)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	Penta <cpenta@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:40:02 -0800

Message no. 44 K in the Shadows wrote:

> In a message dated 10/30/1998 10:03:23 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> rook@*****.INFINEX.COM writes:
>
> > Until we become more culturally open; second language skills will
> not
> > prosper. They'll atrophy from lack of sufficient use.
> >
>
> Rook, your response is also of someone who is simply NOT getting it with
> regards to cultural advancement. And I am going to state now, that I am using
> the term "advancement" as a military maneuver, and not an enlightening one.
>
> Secondary language skills are becoming more and more widely required, even in
> places like good ol' Lafayette here. We have one of the highest growth rates
> for "non-english speaking residents" in Indiana (I'll ignore Gary,
> Indianapolis, and Bloomington for now). Doing business on a "street
level",
> meaning daily retail things like grocery shopping or getting one's car fixed,
> is reaching the state that if you know more than one language, you are likely
> going to attract more business and on a more diverse level.

<snip afterwards>

Too true. As a note...Whenever you learn ANY language in a classroom environment,
you almost ALWAYS learn both how to read/write AND speak the language. I expect it
to continue. Even in acclimation...you normally figure out how to read/write it as
well as speak it as you go along, esp. in ethnic enclaves. FASA's rule doesn't
make sense, it ANY way.

JCP

From:	Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Sat, 31 Oct 1998 00:37:13 -0500

Message no. 45 D. Ghost wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:08:26 -0800 Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
> writes:
> >
> >Normal languages in muy neighborhood in order of frequency:
> > [ . . . ]
> >Jewish
>
> I think you mean Hebrew. :)

I think he means Yiddish. >8-> But anyway...

Have Fun,
- Steve ("Not a Troll") Eley
sfeley@***.net

From:	Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Sat, 31 Oct 1998 01:02:01 EST

Message no. 46 >I would like to make two points here.
>First, the keyword here is 'average' - average reading skill might
>well be enough unless you're a technical worker or computer
>specialist.
>
>Secondly, conveying ideas is a lot easier in a verbal medium than a
>written one. Almost any NG or mailing list member should be perfectly
>aware of this. Misunderstandings, cross - purpose discussions etc. is
>common, while if we'd been communicating verbally they'd be solved a
>lot faster. So unless the TN's for conveying ideas was different for
>written material than verbal, writing skill should be lower, simply
>because utilizing it effectively to convey and explain concepts takes
>a lot more time and effort.
>
Verbal communication is only faster if one is trying to resolve a
problem. I one is rellaying facts or ideas written comunication is much
more effictive. The diffence is active vs static. Verbal communication
is better in an active discussion format, where as written communication
works much better in a static passing on of information (a manual)

".o' 'b^'""'b -'b
,'.'o' t. = -'b -'t.
; d o' ___ _.--.. 8 - 'b ='b
dooo8< .o:':__;o. ,;;o88%%8bb - = 'b ='b
|^88^88=. .,x88/::/ | \\'::::::d%%%%%88%88888/%x88888
:-88ˆ%%L8'%'|::|_>-<-||%;;%;8%%=;:::=%8;;\%%%%\8888
|ˆ 88%%|HHHH|::| >-< |||;%;;8%%=;:::=%8;;;%%%%+|]88
| 88-88%%LL.%.%b::Y_|_Y/%|;;;;'%8%%oo88%;o%.;;;;+|]88
Yx88o88^^'"'^^%8boooood..-\H_Hd%P%%88%P^%%^'\;;;/%%88
'"\^\ ~"""""' d%P """^"
; = '+' - P
'.'.b :<%%> . : - d' - P
.'.b '788 ,'- = d' =.'
''.b. :..- :' P
'q.>b '^^^:::::,'
""^^
Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Rook <rook@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Sat, 31 Oct 1998 01:27:13 -0800

Message no. 47 > >> Hmmm... Well, Brian, you and I live in very different parts of the USA,
then.
>
> > I live in San Francisco. The most culturally diverse city in the world.
> >Normal languages in muy neighborhood in order of frequency:
> >
> >Chinese
> >Russian
> >Korean
> >Jewish
>
> I think you mean Hebrew. :)

Opps. Yeah. :)

> >English
>
> Hmmm. Really? IN that order? Interesting. In my neighborhood it's
> pretty much strictly English ... Neighbors accross the street are ...
> Korean (I *think*). We're Portuguesse. At school, I've heard more
> languages than I can indentify (With Korean/Chinese being most common
> after English and the Spanish after them.).

yes. In that order. It's rare to hear english on the streets here. I
live in the Richmond district of San Francisco. Other districts vary.
The particular part of 'Richmond' I reside in is mostly Chinese, Korean,
and Jews from Russia. Generally if you hear english it's from someone
who's not from the area; or when a member of one group is talking to
another. Or you're sitting on a public bus and just driving through
(though there I heard mostly Chinese).

Whites make up only 38% of the city. Asians 33%. More of the whites are
first gen immigrants than the asians though. It's more common to hear an
asian speak english than a white in many neighborhoods. That's a recent
change though. Since the breakdown of the USSR mostly.

> > Though most of the out of town whites think it's all Japanese...
> >which is beside the point...
>
> Heh. That's interesting ... if anything, I'd think they'd confuse it for
> Chinese ... Is there a particularly predominant Japanese (cultural)
> presence in San Francisco?

No there isn't. But if they're not in Chinatown they tend to assume any
asian is Japanese cause 'Japanese is Kewl'... Tends to tick people off a
lot as asians tend to really hate Japanese and don't like being
identified as them. The number of times some bugger would walk up to my
wife when she worked retail and try out his Japanese buzzwords...

> > Americans pick up only the rudiments of foreign language in most
> >cases when they study it. And few retain it long. Those that travel use
> >phrase books or demand the local use english
>
> When I visit Portugal, I try very hard to speak in Portuguese at times,
> and I also try very hard to understand what is said in Portuguese around
> me. I also speak some French (I count Portuguese and Spanish as one
> language because when I speak either one, I'm really speaking a fusion of
> the two) plus a few (literally a few, like two or three) words of German,
> and Japanese. I think I used to know some Chinese. I can draw (Note
> that I said draw, not write) the Japanese Kujin (is that the right

You mean the Chinese characters? japanese call those Kanji.

> word/character set) symbol for bi (Beauty). How would you rate my grasp
> of Languages? :)

Higher than most americans or asians, lower than most western
europeans.

> >(a former manager for a
> >semiconductor company I worked with almost blew off a $100 million sale to
Samsung
> >because the Samsung engineers had confered with each other in Korean during a
> >business meeting at Samsung, in Korea. The US manager was so furious he left
> >for the states and demanded that in future only english be allowed in any
> >meetings. Samsung chose to comply strangley enough, as they wanted the product).
>
> I'm tempting to say that's silly but I can see a rationale for it. It
> may not be a matter of intolerance but instead a matter of manners. It's
> just plain rude to exclude someone from a conversation like that. It's
> like wispering in front of them. It doesn't matter whether the engineers
> confering should be a private conversation or not. The fact that they
> consulted within earshot in a language that the manager couldn't
> understand could be taken as an insult (ie, as a lack of trust.).

Well. In this case only two Korean guys in the room spoke english. One
of them
was a guy working as a rep for my company. The other one of their
people.
Very fw Koreans have a decent grasp of English. If comminication is
desired you have to accept the use of translators. Though that's slowly
changing in the younger generation. But it'll be a good decade or two
before it's like western europe.

Also the idea that them confering in Korean is rude is somewhat unique
to Americans; or at least to the western world. Asians have no problems
with people who speak a foreign language in front of them. They know
that if you meant for them to understand you; you'd do something to be
understood (gestures, phrasebook, switching languages if possible). And
if you didn't; then it's none of their business.

> It depends ... I think in Houston, Texas, there's a larger than average
> number of bilingual (English/Spanish) people because there are a lot of
> jobs that will pay more or require it.

The same here. They hire those people then resent them or get annoyed
at them when they use the very skills they were hired for. Something
I've seen in multiple locations in the states or when with Americans
abroad.

> I think, however, the US -is- starting to "push it in our children"... I
> don't know why but I just get that feeling. (Though the US is pushing
> computer skills even more.)

I dunno. Recent laws banning non english in schools in California; save
in a foriegn language course, make me feel we're having a 'backlash'
against foreign languages. I certainly hope I get proved wrong here in
the long run however.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG TownHall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ Nothing vast enters the life of mortals without a curse.
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site

From:	Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:34:37 EST

Message no. 48 In a message dated 98-10-30 17:40:53 EST, you write:

> Secondly, conveying ideas is a lot easier in a verbal medium than a
> written one. Almost any NG or mailing list member should be perfectly
> aware of this. Misunderstandings, cross - purpose discussions etc. is
> common, while if we'd been communicating verbally they'd be solved a
> lot faster. So unless the TN's for conveying ideas was different for
> written material than verbal, writing skill should be lower, simply
> because utilizing it effectively to convey and explain concepts takes
> a lot more time and effort.

I disagree with this point. For anyone with decent literacy levels, one can
absorb the written word MUCH faster than the spoken word. In fact, the
written word is about the densest form of information transfer there is.
Consider the following factoid, for example. About 3 minutes of music,
sampled at present .wav fideality is about a megabyte. In that same megabyte
of text data (written words) I could have most of a rather long story. (One
that would take near an hour to read, in fact) Storage is expensive, still.
(yes, I know the cost per MB of drives keep going down, but bear with me
here.) To store the same sort of information that I have in that 1 mb story
in an audio or video format, one would need 10x to 100x the amount of storage
space. This means the story is 10 to 100 times more expensive to store.
mulipy that by the thousands of pieces of data that you find in the average
database, and the cost mushrooms into impractibility. The sheer amount of
data that must be maintained dictatess that any company with any sense will
use the most dense data storage medium possible.

This, for example, is why we now have the Y2k problem. because memory, both
disk and on line were so much more expensive 10-20 years ago, space was at a
premium. Ergo, the wrote their software to only keep track of the significant
digits of the years, namely the last two. it halved the amount of space
needed for the years, and when your talking thousands of records, thats a lot
of space.

No, I'm not saying that pictures and sounds, etc, will not continue to expand
in the web. Pictures and sound do have their uses, etc, but when it comes
down to the main meat of the data out there, its gonna be text based, which
means that anyone who is going to be anyone is going to have to know how to
read.

To this end, I agree with whazziz name, who advocated seperate levels in
speaking and reading different languages. I feel this best represents the way
the world really is, for good or ill, for I know a great many people who may
be very articulate, but dont read well, or may read very well, but have
trouble expressing themselves verbaly.

About the one other thing I would add is that the lower of the two should be
no less than half the score of the higher. Why? it makes sense, from my
point of view, because one tends to rub off on the other. The more advanced
material you are able to read, the more articulate one tends to be, and vise
versa.

From:	Rook <rook@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Sat, 31 Oct 1998 01:34:33 -0800

Message no. 49 > > >Normal languages in muy neighborhood in order of frequency:
> > > [ . . . ]
> > >Jewish
> >
> > I think you mean Hebrew. :)
>
> I think he means Yiddish. >8-> But anyway...

Nope. Hebrew. These are first generation immigrants or Isralis living
here. Generally Russian is more common as almost all of the whites found
on the streets in this neighborhood are recent Russian immigrants.

I don't think I've ever personally heard more than a word or two of
Yiddish in movies or from friends from the Jewish community who actually
knew it or used it in their humor (such as 'Oy vey', which I believe is
Yiddish...).

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG TownHall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ Nothing vast enters the life of mortals without a curse.
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site

From:	Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Languages
Date:	Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:00:26 +1000

Message no. 50 > I dunno. Recent laws banning non english in schools in California;
save
>in a foriegn language course, make me feel we're having a 'backlash'
>against foreign languages. I certainly hope I get proved wrong here in
>the long run however.

You're not the only country to do it... A few years back France outlawed
any product produced or sold in France to have any language but french on
it. IIRC, they even tried to ban the use of words imported from another
language, but I'm not sure about that.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Message no. 51 According to Cernunnos Morrigu, at 10:48 on 30 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> Here's another point my group has pondered before... Besides the table
> presented earlier about the different skill rating = language proficiency
> in accent and such, how does the skill rating affect the character's
> vocabulary? I imagine the lower ratings as being able to say such pleasant
> things as "fuuuud" and "keeeellllllll," but a rating 6 might be
able to
> tell you about "The post-antrophic affects in the anthropormorphic
> degradation of the capilary diaphragm as it relates to antisystolic shock."
> The rating stands for all of these - fluency in grammar, pronunciation,
> and vocabulary. Thus, we had PC's having to "dumb-down" their speech to
> talk to other PC's.

That is reflected by the TNs for language use -- if you're trying to
communicate a simple concept ("I am hungry") you'll have an easier time
than when you want to discuss more complicated ideas ("When someone comes
through that door, warn me, unless he's not carrying a gun in which case
you get together some mates and deal with him yourself"). A higher skill
means you will generally be able to roll successes against higher TNs,
which means you can communicate (or understand) complex ideas more readily
than someone with a lower skill.

For example, see what you can make of these two:

1) "Waar is het toilet?"

2) "Ik ben gisteren naar de stad gegaan en heb daar een nieuwe fiets met
trommelremmen en vijftien versnellingen gekocht."

Another point is language related to specific areas of knowledge, which
SR3 tries to address with the "lingos". However, in my experience many
lingos tend to be more or less universal regardless of language, because
terms are borrowed from other language(s) for them. I think you should
probably get a TN modifier for speaking about something you and the person
you're talking to, both know about -- for example, someone speaking a
little bit of English would probably have an easier time talking about
RPGs with any of us than about baked fish.

> This also relates to the speaking versus r/w question. Sure, you may
> be able to speak at level 6, but if you come across those words, can you
> really understand them at first glance? Or, if we take a more recent
> point in the thread, if you've learned them by reading, do you
> necessarily know how to say them? I think perhaps the default might not
> be the best, but a difference is definately worth having.

Agreed. If you've learned a language in school or through a course, you'll
be able to read it as well as speak it, because languages are generally
taught (in my experience) through books. As a matter of fact, this would
be a very good reason for having a higher R/W skill than the actual
language skill -- I, for example, can sort of understand written French
(provided it's not too complicated), but have a much more difficult time
speaking the language. I can also make out the basics of Swedish texts
(due to it resembling Dutch, to a certain degree), but have _no_clue_
what's said when I hear it.

OTOH if you've learned a language by dealing with native speakers, I'd say
you'll most likely speak it better than read it (unless you learned it in
a country where the language is spoken, then you'd be likely to be able to
do both).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 52 According to Brian Wong, at 15:08 on 30 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> It's so bad that it even pervades when we travel. I remember a situation
> when I was living in Korea where I found a US GI accosting a Korean in Korea
> because the Korean had used Korean and didn't know english. When I told the
> story to my american friends there; they sided with the GI in all but 1 case.
> Saying the 'gook' should've known english since there's so many GI's there.

In World War I, many US soldiers were apparently quite surprised that
nobody in France could speak "American." This was, of course, before mass
media as we know them today and around the time of a peak of US
isolationism, but still...

> I just don't see Americans as being broad minded enough to accept
> bilingualism. We'll hire people who speak a second language. But we don't
> push it in our own children. We point out immigrants that live near us
> and speak other languages; then we go to the polls and vote to remove
> support for services in their languages...
> We live in a double standard.

Yep. Here it's much the other way around. I live in a tourist town, and
most signs which tourists would get to read (like the warnings at the
beach) tend to be in Dutch, German, and IIRC either English or French (I'm
not interested in the beach so it's been a while since I saw one of those
signs). Likewise tourism brochures are often in Dutch and German, while
brochures for "our" use quite often have the text in Dutch, Morroccan, and
Turkish due to the large number of immigrants from those countries living
here. The US, from what I saw last summer, is quite different.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 53 According to D. Ghost, at 21:12 on 30 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> I'm tempting to say that's silly but I can see a rationale for it. It
> may not be a matter of intolerance but instead a matter of manners. It's
> just plain rude to exclude someone from a conversation like that. It's
> like wispering in front of them. It doesn't matter whether the engineers
> confering should be a private conversation or not. The fact that they
> consulted within earshot in a language that the manager couldn't
> understand could be taken as an insult (ie, as a lack of trust.).

I propose that this IS not rude, but that you FIND it rude. This is a big
difference -- to the Koreans, it could be normal procedure and they might
think nothing of it if someone else does that in front of them in a
different language. The American on the other side of the table, though,
finds it offensive that people would exclude them from a conversation like
that.

My father told me that at a course he went to last year, they were split
up into different groups and each group was to play a different
nationality in a large negotiation (roleplaying, in fact); each group got
instructions on how to behave, based on how people of that nationality
tend to behave in these situations. He was a "German" and they were to try
and stamp out an agreement by the end of the meeting. The "French," on the
other hand, were trying to stall the whole thing because they couldn't
make a decision without consulting their superiors, who weren't at the
meeting.

My point is that the language thing that Rook mentioned can very well be
something similar: cultural differences leading to (unnecessary)
disagreements.

> I think the problem is that the US stresses having a piece of paper
> saying you know whatever subject too much over actually knowing that
> subject. (Like getting hired because you took Spanish in High School
> even though you can't remember any word that hasn't been used in a Taco
> Bell commercial ...)

Some things, though, seem to be the same the world over :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 54 and thus did Steve Eley speak on 30 Oct 98 at 11:34:

[snip huge piece with which I agree]
> I'm talking about the mainstream, average character in Shadowrun. I can't
> think of a reason why an intelligent, unimpaired person who spoke English
> at a high Skill Rating would read it at a lower one. I do know
> intelligent people who *write* rather badly, but I would maintain that the
> skills involved in good writing are separate from the language itself.

Bingo, I never understood why reading and writing were one skill in
most RPGs I know. It's more logical to combine speaking and reading
into one skill and make writing a separate one. Ones command of a
language in it's spoken form only helps up to a certain level in
writing something. Beyond the simple notes to the repair man or
letters to your mom, style is just as important as actually knowing
the words.

My idea is to give someone a language - speak/read skill consisting
in most cases of just one number. In cases where a person is
illiterate, mute, or only followed a spoken language course you can
actually split them up in two numbers (or whenever you feel that
there is a huge difference between learning how to speak and how to
read a language, like when there is a different alphabet involved).

Second people get a writing skill up to two points linked to their
read language skill (i.e. if you have French speak/read 1, you
automatically get write French at 1 too; up to 2 points). I use "read
language" in case there is a difference between the skill for speak
and read. These two points in writing mean that you can write half way
decent private letters to someone speaking that language, or for that
matter can join ShadowRN and write posts :) (although we had our
zero's and ones here... )
Any official letters will be somewhat imperfect, and grammar/spelling
mistakes are common.
If a character chose one of the "educated" edges from the
SR-Companion add one point to the languages which they learned in
school for High School and two for University/College (I forgot the
exact wording). These edges also mean that the writing skill can be
linked to three or four points respectively.

Beyond that level the writing skill is linked to the etiquette
skills or relevant other skills. If the character in question "just"
took writing classes, I assume these deal mostly with
business/official letters, but there are a few subsets I can
think of right now which don't have much in common:

-business memo's and official material: corp/government etiquette +
writing (for all examples take the average of the two skills);
-scripts: movie/simsense special skills + writing;
-legalese: law + writing;
-manuals: technical skill + writing;
-novels: creative writing special skill + writing;
-speeches: relevant etiquette skill + writing;
-scientific: relevant knowledge skill + writing;
etc.

I would say that anyone who wants to have a skill higher than 4 in
writing, has to specialize in one of the above. Anyone with a special
background could already have a specialization in those.

Kind of related to this: if the language is a foreign one to the
person in question, I have to admit that the reading skills are the
only ones that remain somewhat decent if it hasn't been used in a
while. But looking at SR, plus the general opinion when I posed a
skill degeneration idea a month ago, splitting them up in three
subsets would complicate the system unnecessary and not help it much.

I hope I did convey my ideas somewhat logically and that they make
sense :)

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

Message no. 55 > The point I have is that most american do not cross
> socialize. Instead we get mad and even violent at the sound of languages
other than
> english (not
> me btw; I use Korean at home so having a problem with another
> language with
> be hypocritical for me, by go as close as my step father and I
> find english
> only advocates).
> It's so bad that it even pervades when we travel. I
> remember a situation
> when I was living in Korea where I found a US GI accosting a
> Korean in Korea
> because the Korean had used Korean and didn't know english. When
> I told the
> story to my american friends there; they sided with the GI in all
> but 1 case.
> Saying the 'gook' should've known english since there's so many
> GI's there.
>
> Americans pick up only the rudiments of foreign language in most
> cases when they study it. And few retain it long. Those that travel use
> phrase books or demand the local use english (a former manager for a
> semiconductor company I worked with almost blew off a $100 sale to Samsung
> because the Samsung engineers had confered with each other in
> Korean during a
> business meeting at Samsung, in Korea. The US manager was so
> furious he left
> for the states and demanded that in future only english be allowed in any
> meetings. Samsung chose to comply strangley enough, as they
> wanted the product).
>
> So I do see multiple language use here in the city. Among
> immigrants
> and rare people like myself. But the general population does not make the
> effort beyond satisfying a class requirement and then quickly forgetting
> what they learned.
> That could change. But we have a major cultural push for english
> only in the USA. So I don't see it too likely in the near future. But
> maybe by SR's time. My own perception though is most North
> American nations
> in the world of SR would be using english out of it being the historical
> language. Even if the gov start pushing Souix, people still learn
> english as children and all it would do is create a class division.
>
> I just don't see Americans as being broad minded enough to accept
> bilingualism. We'll hire people who speak a second language. But we don't
> push it in our own children. We point out immigrants that live near us
> and speak other languages; then we go to the polls and vote to remove
> support for services in their languages...
> We live in a double standard.
>
> --
> Rook

I wish you would stop using "we" and "most Americans". I don't know
any of
these people, nor do I wish to be grouped with them.

Mike

Message no. 56 > > I dunno. Recent laws banning non english in schools in
> California;
> save
> >in a foriegn language course, make me feel we're having a 'backlash'
> >against foreign languages. I certainly hope I get proved wrong here in
> >the long run however.
>
>
> You're not the only country to do it... A few years back France outlawed
> any product produced or sold in France to have any language but french on
> it. IIRC, they even tried to ban the use of words imported from another
> language, but I'm not sure about that.
>
> Slipspeed
>
It is the same in Quebec. All public material has be in French. There was
even a big fuss up there this year when they wanted all the Chinese signs in
the Chinatown area changed to French. As for new words, the French hold a
congress to make up new French words for new words they consider foreign.
In Shadowrun it is even worse. Language cops. I think it is even legal to
speak another language. It is all in NAN2 I think.

Mike

Message no. 57 Steve,

There are a variety of levels of literacy. I've worked as a volunteer
reading tutor with students from 2nd grade to adults in their 50's.
It's Not That Simple, especially in a language as unphoenetic as
English.
"The tough cough and hiccough thoroughly ploughed him
through."
With the adult literacy project we used a series of books from
a group that has done literacy work in a couple hundred languages.
The stack of books for learning to read all the English words you can
speak was 3x higher than the equivalent series in Spanish, and 5x
longer than that in Tagalog.

Even if 21st century English has rationalized spelling (I will not
particularly morn the disappearance of the "gh" in light, or its
transmogrification to lite) faster than it borrows new words from
other languages there is still a lot of practice and skills involved
in sounding out the big words.

In Shadowrun novels LUCIFER DECK has a reasonable depiction of a
motivated semi-literate seriously tackling print for the first time.

Lyndon

On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:53:53 -0500, you wrote:

>
>Besides, the math FASA was using is ludicrous. One-half the spoken
>skill? Either you're literate or you aren't. If you can speak English =
at
>6, how could you only read at 3? You have trouble sounding the big =
words
>out or something?
>
>
>Have Fun,
> - Steve Eley
> sfeley@***.net

Message no. 58 Fixer,

That is a good point about individuals who can read better than they
can speak. I think I'm one of them. I didn't have hearing problems,
but I have some dozens of years of being chronically (often painfully)
shy, and have read lots more than I talked.
Eventually found some stuff to be enthusiastic about, and in
my 30's had the novel (to me) experience of talking myself hoarse.
Still read lots more words than I talk, and read words that
I'm clumsy at saying out loud. Text feels much more like my native
language, and especially when I'm tired it's an effort to translate
thought into noise. There have been times when I'm tired enough that
getting out a stuttering gurgle is a painful challenge, but I can type
coherent paragraphs (at 70 wpm) ... and they still look coherent after
I've caught up on my sleep.

Lyndon

On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:13:31 -0500, you wrote:

>
> What about individuals who can read better than they can speak?
>As an example, I was deaf for the first three years of my life. Needless
>to say, my communications skills were lacking but, by reading books with
>pictures and such, and having the pictures and the letters pointed out =
to
>me, I learned how to read before I could speak. Also due to this, I =
tend
>to be better in writing up speeches before I speak them, at least when =
it
>comes to difficult grammatical structure. At present, there are no =
rules
>to 'create' such people who are better at writing than speaking.
> Perhaps a Int * 2 = Language points, which can be spent =
towards
>verbal or reading/written skills as determined by the players? This =
would
>create, on average, one point less than the current method if you were =
to
>add the Language skills and read/write skills together, which is still
>fairly close.
>

Message no. 59 Steve,

Quite reasonable point on historic perspective. By synchronicity in
everyday life I was just reading how the Almanac Singers got their
name around 1940.
"Hold on," said Lee. "Back where I come from a family had
two books. The Bible, to help 'em to the next world. The Almanac,
to help 'em through the present world. We've got an Almanac. Of
course, most Congressmen can't read it." (Pete Seeger, Where Have All
The Flowers Gone, c. 1993, p. 19)

While most of MY friends have hundreds or thousands of books at home,
and finding spaces for more bookcases is the most common interior
decorating concern, this is hardly typical of the country, or
industrialized world, as a whole. A lot of people in the office seem
to think it is weird to display voluntary literacy of reading anything
other than the sports page. A lot of people at bus stops over the
years have assumed that if I'm reading a non-fiction book, let alone
carrying several, I have to be in college. Some get upset and irate
at the thought of someone reading for fun. (This is not a rigorous
statistical analysis).

Some more statistics from 1993 and earlier follow.

This is from Literacy Volunteers of America:

http://literacy.kent.edu/LVA/index.html
What is functional illiteracy?
Functional illiteracy refers to the inability of an
individual to use reading, speaking, writing and
computational skills in everyday life situations. For example, a
functionally illiterate adult is unable to fill out an employment
application, follow written instructions, or read a newspaper.
In short, when confronted with printed materials,
adults without basic literacy skills on illiteracy cannot function
effectively.

What is the scope of illiteracy in this country?

In September, 1993, the most detailed portrait ever
available on the condition of literacy in this nation was released by
the U.S. Department of Education. The National Adult Literacy
Survey (NALS) evaluated the skills of adults in three
areas: prose, document and quantitative proficiency. Results showed:

21%-23% (40 to 44 million adults) were at Level 1, the
lowest of five levels.

On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:34:55 -0500, you wrote:

>As a closer-to-home example, you don't "have" to read this mailing list
>post. But you are. And this forum would be exceptionally hard to =
manage
>with all these people if we were speaking instead of writing.
>
>
>> If I could package all the info into images, icons, sound =
bytes, etc...
>> why learn to read beyond the basics?
>
>Because you can't "package all the info." You've ignored what I said
>about information density in my original post. For moving large amounts
>of complex information quickly, the written word is *much* more =
efficient
>than the spoken word. It takes most people less time to read than to
>listen. Pictures and graphs have their place in analysis, but only in
>specialized cases can they actually act as data.
>
>In SR, at least in the average jobs in which the average sarariman =
works,
>I believe that there will be a constant (or possibly increasing) need to
>move large amounts of information quickly. Your job could be augmented =
by
>smartframes and semi-autonomous knowbots, but they won't do all the
>thinking for you. You'd need to be able to analyze and report on data
>efficiently. And that means reading and writing.
>
>
>> All you need is enough to fill in the words placed on the info=
graphic.
>> And once the graphic becomes a common icon you no longer try to read =
it
>> anyway.
>
>Huh? What's an info graphic? Could you give me an example of one? =
Could
>you then explain how "info graphics" could be used to quickly and easily
>tell us, say, how electrical induction works? Or the auditor's report =
for
>your local business unit within Ares? Or that you shouldn't change the
>battery cells on your Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit while the motor is
>running?
>
>
>> Sure SR is high tech. But it's all in packages. preassembled =
parts.
>> You don't need to know how to melt the plastic into shapes to play =
with the
>> legos anymore.
>
>I will concede that you could probably get by successfully in the SR =
world
>without literacy. You can do that today, and you could ALWAYS do that,
>throughout history. But you'll have a very hard time finding a decent
>job. More than today, even, the major industries in Shadowrun seem to =
be
>information-based. And you can't work in information without being able
>to read.
>
>
>> Of course there would be an elete class of people who are =
fully
>> literate and can 'melt that plastic down'. But they would be rare.
>Again, if you can explain to me how even a low-level bureaucrat in a SR
>megacorp can do his/her job efficiently without having to read or write
>anything, assuming the amount of information involved is equivalent or
>higher to today's typical information flow, I'll consider this argument =
to
>have merit.
>
>That, or I suppose you could argue that low-level bureaucrats in SR
>megacorps are elite and rare. But I think the source material refutes =
you
>on that. >8->
>
>
>> [ . . . ] Even
>> rarer still would be people who read for pleasure. Why bother? It's =
all on
>> simsense anyway.
>
>Bull. As I said, more people read for pleasure in the 1990's then ever
>before. Why? "It's all on TV anyway..." I could see reading declining
>as other entertainment competed for one's attention, but it wouldn't be
>practically unheard-of.
>
>Incidentally, there are a few studies already out that TV watching is
>going *down* somewhat in households with computers. This shouldn't
>surprise anyone -- the Internet is turning out to be a better
>distraction. But as I've said earlier, the Net is fundamentally a =
medium
>of the written word. Even in networked computer games, you've got to =
type
>to chat with your opponents/allies. This means people on-line are =
reading
>more than they would be if they were watching TV.
>
>The Shadowrun source material supports this, too. Look at all the IC
>stuff in sourcebooks. They're copies of text material, alleged to be
>posted on Shadowland, with written comments by alleged shadowrunners. =
If
>all these shadowrunners are supposed to be barely literate, then Nigel
>Findley et al. have sure done a poor job portraying them...
>
>
>> > Besides, the math FASA was using is ludicrous. One-half the spoken
>> > skill? Either you're literate or you aren't. If you can speak =
English at
>> > 6, how could you only read at 3? You have trouble sounding the big =
words
>> > out or something?
>>
>> Yes. That's how it ussually is anyway. Semi literacy is very =
common.
>> I have a cousin who takes a minute per word. Of course his problem is =
due to
>> his mother's drug habit... But that's the common way it manifests.
>But would you say he speaks English at a skill equivalency of 6?
>
>
>> [ . . . ] I've worked
>> as an assistant in ESL classes and you see much the same thing from =
people
>> adjusting to an aphabet system or who come from nonliterate cultures. =
Very
>> slow reading and difficulty putting meaning into the words; even when =
they
>> can sound them out perfectly.
>
>I'm not talking about people to whom English is a foreign language; or
>people who have had legitimate physical or mental difficulties, such as
>your cousin or Fixer (who said he could read better than he could speak
>when he was younger.) Those are all exceptional cases, and aren't =
really
>addressed by FASA's given rationale. If you really needed to represent
>them, you could define them as Flaws.
>
>I'm talking about the mainstream, average character in Shadowrun. I =
can't
>think of a reason why an intelligent, unimpaired person who spoke =
English
>at a high Skill Rating would read it at a lower one. I do know
>intelligent people who *write* rather badly, but I would maintain that =
the
>skills involved in good writing are separate from the language itself.
>
>
>> Try it with Chinese sometime. You may grasp a few characters; =
reading
>> them slowly as your mind tries to place the images. And you may even =
grab a few
>> you know and string them together into something that seems to make =
sense but
>> for which a native chinese would be baffled about.
>
>I'll take your word on it.
>
>
>Have Fun,
> - Steve Eley
> sfeley@***.net

Message no. 60 > > I think, however, the US -is- starting to "push it in our children"...
I
> > don't know why but I just get that feeling. (Though the US is pushing
> > computer skills even more.)
>
> I dunno. Recent laws banning non english in schools in
> California; save
> in a foriegn language course, make me feel we're having a 'backlash'
> against foreign languages. I certainly hope I get proved wrong here in
> the long run however.

I consider myself to be pretty open-minded, and somewhat 'liberal' in my
views, but... I think that having a standard language is a good idea. (In
this case, English would be the most likely one). On the other hand, I think
that linguistic and cultural diversity is something that should be
encouraged. I'm kind of hampered in my enthusiasm for a 'standard language'
because I also think that someone shouldn't be forced to learn a language
that isn't native to them. Basically, I'm sitting the fence. If I remember
correctly, there was a Congressman from Hawaii (or possibly California) who
was of Asian decent, and multi-lingual, but who also felt that English
should be the official language. (I don't recall his reasoning, but at the
time that I read about him, I agreed with his view).

If anything, it would be great if everyone knew at least 3 languages.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-

Message no. 61 > It is the same in Quebec. All public material has be in French.
> There was
> even a big fuss up there this year when they wanted all the
> Chinese signs in
> the Chinatown area changed to French. As for new words, the French hold a
> congress to make up new French words for new words they consider foreign.
> In Shadowrun it is even worse. Language cops. I think it is
> even legal to
> speak another language. It is all in NAN2 I think.
>
> Mike
>
I check on is after I sent it. Quebec was in Neo-Anarchists Guide to North
America not NAN2. My mistake.

Mike

Message no. 62 On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 13:03:37 +0000 Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
writes:
>and thus did Steve Eley speak on 30 Oct 98 at 11:34:
>
>[snip huge piece with which I agree]
>> I'm talking about the mainstream, average character in Shadowrun. I
can't
>> think of a reason why an intelligent, unimpaired person who spoke
English
>> at a high Skill Rating would read it at a lower one. I do know
>> intelligent people who *write* rather badly, but I would maintain that
the
>> skills involved in good writing are separate from the language itself.

>Bingo, I never understood why reading and writing were one skill in
>most RPGs I know. It's more logical to combine speaking and reading
>into one skill and make writing a separate one. Ones command of a
>language in it's spoken form only helps up to a certain level in
>writing something. Beyond the simple notes to the repair man or
>letters to your mom, style is just as important as actually knowing
>the words.
<SNIP>

Excuse me???? For a logical breakdown of languages, look at Rolemaster.
Speaking is one skill. That's just knowing and recognizing the spoken
words and pronunciation of those words. Reading and writing is just the
ability to form and recognize written words and characters as well as
proper sentence structure (This last bit is covered by both, speaking and
reading/writing, skills). Any use of the spoken or written word is
covered by other skills such as oration, poetic improvisation, singing,
acting, Public Speaking, poetry, etc... IF you want to sway my opinion,
show me one person who does not have a disability, and who can read or
write but cannot do the other. If you can do that, I'll propose that
reading, writing, speaking and hearing a language should be 4 different
skills.

Here's my proposition for a revision of the language rules:
Make each language a general skill with two specializations, Speaking and
Reading/Writing. I think most illiterate people can recognize some
symbols/words (even if they do it backassward... ie, this collection of
symbols means "stop" as opposed to realizing "s" + "t" +
"o" + "p" equals
"stop".) so having a basic general skill rating shouldn't be too much of
a problem.

Then at char generation, you get standard INT*1.5 points to spend on
language skills.

Optionally, you can allow unlimited transfering of written skills to
spoken at char gen but this will mean that illiterate charcters will
speak more langauges (on average) than literate characters and I don't
agree with that.

Note that increasing the two specializations is either as expensive or
more so than increasing the general skill.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Message no. 63 > -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Lady Jestyr
> Sent: Friday, 30 October 1998 3:27
>
>
> We didn't like this rule at all - we figured that some
> characters would
> have Read/Write as high as their general language skill,
> others would be
> virtually illiterate. We agreed to make it a GM call, based on the
> character background - ex-gangers and so forth will be
> virtually illiterate
> (unless they actively put skill points into it), whereas
> characters with
> tertiary educations and the like will be as literate
> R/W-wise, as for
> speaking and listening. So it's basically up to the GM.

I sort of did something similar here. So basically I give people who
choose the college education merit free R/W up to their Speaking
rating for one language. I also reduce the R/W to zero for people
with the illiterate flaw.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947

Message no. 64 Quoting Fade (runefo@***.UIO.NO):
> Secondly, conveying ideas is a lot easier in a verbal medium than a
> written one. Almost any NG or mailing list member should be perfectly
> aware of this. Misunderstandings, cross - purpose discussions etc. is
> common, while if we'd been communicating verbally they'd be solved a
> lot faster.

Your supporting evidence (delayed consensus and increased flaming
in online environments) is correct. However, your conclusion doesn't
follow logically from them. The things you're talking about are qualities of
online communication, not written communication. They do not appear in
media such as letter-writing, which are written but highly asyncronous,
and DO appear in media such as video-conferencing (though less so than in
email) which are verbal but online and more syncronous. (Sorry to get
pedantic, but I'm in the process of looking for PhD programs that'll support
research on this topic)
Part of the effect stems from the reduced 'bandwidth' of a verbal
medium (compared to things like tone of voice and facial expression), but
there are also other factors, such as perceived separation between the
people communicating (who cares if you piss him off? He's just a guy on a
screen) and the fact that these media tend to be less formal and encourage
people to speak quickly without taking the time to think about how what they're
saying will be received (rules of behavior seem less important, peoples'
feelings seem less important, etc).
If you're interested in this stuff, I can give you journal references -
there's a fair amount of interesting research being done.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4

Message no. 65 Sean wrote:
> Quoting Fade (runefo@***.UIO.NO):
> > Secondly, conveying ideas is a lot easier in a verbal medium than a
> > written one. Almost any NG or mailing list member should be perfectly
> > aware of this. Misunderstandings, cross - purpose discussions etc. is
> > common, while if we'd been communicating verbally they'd be solved a
> > lot faster.
>
> Your supporting evidence (delayed consensus and increased flaming
> in online environments) is correct. However, your conclusion doesn't
> follow logically from them. The things you're talking about are qualities of
> online communication, not written communication.

These are traits I've observed in letter columns in newspapers as
well, but they have similar attributes to online communication so I
concede the point.

The logic is fairly simple in the quoted statement. I guess it's the
assumptions you have a problem with. But that is beside the point - I
wasn't trying to create a logical evidence, just voicing an idea.
(Writing an idea, sorry.. ;)

I'll try to write it in a more condensed, clear format and add better
examples.

Verbal communication allows for inflection, body language, instant
feedback and other secondary communications that isn't available in a
written medium. Thus getting an idea across in a verbal fashion is
generally faster and more effective than in a written medium.

If written were better at conveying complex ideas, why have
university lectures? Why is videoconferencing more attractive than
online talk? Why have presenters read material on screen instead of
just displaying it?

I'm aware I've gotten 3 nays and no aye's on the post, so I'll not
push it further. ;)

BTW if you have any links to interesting journals on the subject,
just post'em. Enough seems to be interested in the subject.

Regards,
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

Message no. 66 Quoting Fade (runefo@***.UIO.NO):
> Verbal communication allows for inflection, body language, instant
> feedback and other secondary communications that isn't available in a
> written medium. Thus getting an idea across in a verbal fashion is
> generally faster and more effective than in a written medium.

Okay. Up to here, you're correct - for things where it's important to
understand the other person's emotional state, things where you need to reach
consensus, verbal communication is better. The extra channels help us 'read
the mind' of the other person and understand things that are hard to put
precisely into words.
Sorry I jumped on you in such an anal way, btw. What I was really
trying to get at was that there are verbal vs written differences, and there
are face-to-face versus online differences, and it sounded like you were
comparing face-to-face verbal with onlie written, and attributing all of the
differences to the fact that it was written.

> If written were better at conveying complex ideas, why have
> university lectures? Why is videoconferencing more attractive than
> online talk? Why have presenters read material on screen instead of
> just displaying it?

Here, I'd disagree. For complex, FACTUAL information, writing is
superior. Written material can be accessed in any order, controlled by the
reader - they can jump around, refer back, etc. If something doesn't make sense,
they can read it multiple times at their own pace. It's possible to understand
complicated sentence structures in writing that would be impossible to keep
track of verbally - have someone read a law to you outloud, sometime, for
instance, and try to figure out what the damn thing means. Another good
example would be equations - VERY hard to understand when read aloud.
Incidentally, there's a fairly strong belief in the psychology
community that language guides the way we think about the world - it
has rules about how we express ourselves, and they guide how we organize
our thoughts and classify things mentally. Similarly, verbal versus oral
cultures lead to very different ways of thinking. Writing tends to instill
a tendancy towards linear, 'logical' thought - you lay out your ideas one
at a time until you reach your conclusion. People from oral cultures
approach things somewhat differently. Now, I'm not saying one is superior
to the other - we adapt ourselves to our environments, and our cultures ARE
the environments we as humans adapt to. Different things work in different
times and different places.
But think about the sociological effects that a return to a highly-
illiterate society would cause. And for that matter, what sort of thought
and behavior would the systems described in SR lead to? (And how are the kids
who are 3 today, who are growing up with computers and the Web from birth,
going to be different in the way they think from their grandparents, or even
from us?) It's fascinating stuff.

> BTW if you have any links to interesting journals on the subject,
> just post'em. Enough seems to be interested in the subject.

A good summing-up is a book called _Connections: New Ways of Working
in the Networked Organization_, by Lee Sproull (Boston University) and Sara
Kiesler (CMU). There are lots of people saying lots of things about the
way communication and community work online, but most of them are just judging
based on anecdotal evidence. These two are among the most prolific of the
researchers who are actually running controlled experiments looking at the ways
peoples' behaviors differ in the two environments. (Kiesler, by the way, was
one of the researchers who worked on the 'Internet contributes to depression'
study you may have seen in the papers this summer. It's not really her best
work - I think it has some holes, and was overblown by the media - but it IS
something that lots of you may have seen.)
As for the developmental effects of language, it's not something I've
specifically studied, though it's come up in some of my classes. I'm thinking
about looking into it later on. Most of what I've been exposed to has been
in the constructivist/constructionist school of psychology. I don't have any
ready references for that, specifically. I've got a book on my shelf called
_Acts of Meaning_, by Jerome Bruner, that I believe addresses the issue, but
to be honest, I haven't had the time to read more than the chapter or two that
were assigned for class last year :)

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4

Message no. 67 Sean wrote:
> > If written were better at conveying complex ideas, why have
> > university lectures? Why is videoconferencing more attractive than
> > online talk? Why have presenters read material on screen instead of
> > just displaying it?
>
> Here, I'd disagree. For complex, FACTUAL information, writing is
> superior. Written material can be accessed in any order, controlled by the
> reader - they can jump around, refer back, etc. If something doesn't make sense,
> they can read it multiple times at their own pace. It's possible to understand
> complicated sentence structures in writing that would be impossible to keep
> track of verbally - have someone read a law to you outloud, sometime, for
> instance, and try to figure out what the damn thing means. Another good
> example would be equations - VERY hard to understand when read aloud.

Of course. They're presented in a manner suitable for writing, not
talking. Have a lecturer explain a law or a complex equation to you
and you'll get it faster than if reading it in many cases. That
doesn't mean writing is useless - far from it, I've read well more
than 500? books, and I wasn't wasting my time doing it. (At least
unless you count some of the bad ones). It's just that for the kind
of communication you're doing in SR you're most likely to 'get it' if
spoken than written.

*snip*
> But think about the sociological effects that a return to a highly-
> illiterate society would cause.

I was actually not advocating that people in SR are illiterate - but
that skill tests in SR are based on speed. Higher speed of doing
something = higher skill. And verbal communication is (what I said
above, roughly translated to 'faster') and so should have a higher
rating than written language. In other words, that the higher skill
rating for verbal is a game mechanical difference, not a 'real'
difference in skill. Perhaps there might be a real difference in
skill as well, but that I did not address.

I take our exchange here as example. If talking we could have reached
a conclusion of sorts a lot faster than through writing and reading
these mails. (At least, I can assume we would, but wether that's
right I'm not sure, not having spoken with you. Phone# is 22238001,
norway, in case you want to test the theory. Keep time zone
difference in mind, please! Hard to reach at daytime, I am.).

> And for that matter, what sort of thought
> and behavior would the systems described in SR lead to?

OOoh, that's a good one. Simsense, for instance. I wish I had
shadowbeat so I had a better description of exactly just what it was!

> (And how are the kids
> who are 3 today, who are growing up with computers and the Web from birth,
> going to be different in the way they think from their grandparents, or even
> from us?) It's fascinating stuff.

*nod* That's what I always say. I'm looking too much forward to the
future to ... ahrm, that quote's not suitable here. Anyway, yes, it's
one of the things that will be interesting (or frustrating) to see.
I suspect most parents will view that difference as 'bad'.

I've gotta go so I can't work more on this mail right now. Sorry!

Regards,
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

Message no. 68 and thus did D. Ghost speak on 31 Oct 98 at 17:41:

> Excuse me???? For a logical breakdown of languages, look at Rolemaster.

I have to admit that my post was garbled beyond my comprehension.
Must have been a case of the brain thinking of something and then
delegate it to the hands who promply forgot what it was again they
should do... :/

> Speaking is one skill. That's just knowing and recognizing the spoken
> words and pronunciation of those words. Reading and writing is just the
> ability to form and recognize written words and characters as well as
> proper sentence structure (This last bit is covered by both, speaking and
> reading/writing, skills). Any use of the spoken or written word is
> covered by other skills such as oration, poetic improvisation, singing,
> acting, Public Speaking, poetry, etc... IF you want to sway my opinion,
> show me one person who does not have a disability, and who can read or
> write but cannot do the other. If you can do that, I'll propose that
> reading, writing, speaking and hearing a language should be 4 different
> skills.

I could send you a picture of me, and I can honestly say that I do
not have any disabilities :). I can read French, Italian and Spanish
but cannot write, understand or speak it (at least not at the level
at which I can read it). Latin would be a good fourth choice. But
then again one person should not be enough to make up new rules for
:)
People who learnt a language in school, don't use it for ages will be
best of reading a piece.
My subdivision didn't exclude skills like Public speaking, etc. etc.,
the thing I wanted to suggest that when you try to pull something
using those skills in a foreign language the average of the (special
skill + language skill) /2 would be appropriate. But I probably
didn't say it that way :)

> Here's my proposition for a revision of the language rules:
[snip]

Nice idea, but your previous thing about dividing it up in four parts
gave me an idea:

You assign points for languages as by the rules, but then you can
differentiate your skills between the subsets:

Language
- listen / speak
- read / write

Where the second specialization (speak and write) can never be higher
than their matching first specialization.

Say you take Japanese 3 as a foreign language. You took a
conversation course, so while you speak it alright, the reading and
writing is pretty bad.

So this character would have e.g.

Japanese 3
- Listen 5 / speak 5
- Read 2 / write 0

Add the four specializations and divide them by four and you end up
with 3. As a way to stop people getting incredible high
specializations you could say that the difference between the skill
itself and the highest specialization, or between two linked
specializations cannot be more than two. It is however possible to
have specializations at zero. After chargen you can increase each
specialization as normal, but you cannot increase the skill itself
(it does automatically increase when the four specializations add up
to four in this case. So if this character would increase his listen
and speak to 6 and his read and write to 3 and 1, his Japanese would
automatically become 4. Not that this matters much, since you would
never have to use the main skill again anyway).

Finally characters with the educated edge probably have a more evenly
spread skill set in a language, so you might set the max. difference
to 1 there.

Now if this guy has to make a speech in Japanese and has a Japanese
Etiquette (or an orate skill for that matter) of 3 he would test with
(Jap - Speak 5 +Jap Etiq 3)/2 = 4 dice to see if it's any good. If he
however has to write a speech for his boss in Japanese, he's hosed
since he can't write it (unless his boss is European and needs
something phonetical :).

Martin
<"brain, check this, is this what you told me to do?"
"Erhm, think so, I forgot what it was I told you to do.">

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

Message no. 69 >OTOH if you've learned a language by dealing with native speakers, I'd
say
>you'll most likely speak it better than read it (unless you learned it
in
>a country where the language is spoken, then you'd be likely to be able
to
>do both).

As an additional thought to this, some lingos such as streetspeak or the
equivalent will not have a written component at all, in most
circumstances.

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Proud owner of #972

Message no. 70 On 10/31/98, at 12:37 PM, Gurth wrote:

>That is reflected by the TNs for language use -- if you're trying to
>communicate a simple concept ("I am hungry") you'll have an easier time
>than when you want to discuss more complicated ideas ("When someone comes
>through that door, warn me, unless he's not carrying a gun in which case
>you get together some mates and deal with him yourself"). A higher skill
>means you will generally be able to roll successes against higher TNs,
>which means you can communicate (or understand) complex ideas more readily
>than someone with a lower skill.

I understand and agree with this. I'm trying to apply it to PC to PC RP,
not TNs for NPCs.

>For example, see what you can make of these two:
>1) "Waar is het toilet?"
>2) "Ik ben gisteren naar de stad gegaan en heb daar een nieuwe fiets met
>trommelremmen en vijftien versnellingen gekocht."

Right. But if I saw you gesturing, and could respond in kind, then even
saying "iuvatne tu mulcre te?" or "anata no atama ga ooki desu ne"
might
make sense, especially if we were PCs and trying to work together IC.

>Another point is language related to specific areas of knowledge, which
>SR3 tries to address with the "lingos". However, in my experience many
>lingos tend to be more or less universal regardless of language, because
>terms are borrowed from other language(s) for them. I think you should
>probably get a TN modifier for speaking about something you and the person
>you're talking to, both know about -- for example, someone speaking a
>little bit of English would probably have an easier time talking about
>RPGs with any of us than about baked fish.

This relates to what someone posted earlier about the vocabulary relating
to the skillset.

>Agreed. If you've learned a language in school or through a course, you'll
>be able to read it as well as speak it, because languages are generally
>taught (in my experience) through books. As a matter of fact, this would
>be a very good reason for having a higher R/W skill than the actual
>language skill -- I, for example, can sort of understand written French
>(provided it's not too complicated), but have a much more difficult time
>speaking the language. I can also make out the basics of Swedish texts
>(due to it resembling Dutch, to a certain degree), but have _no_clue_
>what's said when I hear it.

Yes, that's a much more eloquent way of putting it than what I said.
Personally, I've just recently been able to "hear" the word breaks in
Japanese consistently. (Although, in speaking, I've been compared to many
young female anime characters in word choice and emphasis)

>OTOH if you've learned a language by dealing with native speakers, I'd say
>you'll most likely speak it better than read it (unless you learned it in
>a country where the language is spoken, then you'd be likely to be able to
>do both).

Well, that also depends on background details, but I would generally
agree.

Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."

Message no. 71 On 10/31/98, at 5:41 PM, D. Ghost wrote:

>acting, Public Speaking, poetry, etc... IF you want to sway my opinion,
>show me one person who does not have a disability, and who can read or
>write but cannot do the other. If you can do that, I'll propose that
>reading, writing, speaking and hearing a language should be 4 different
>skills.

As an example, we can go to any language class. A person taking that
class may be able to read textbook <language>, but only wrtie <native
language>ized <language>. I found this to be true in Japanese classes.
Also, they may be able to speak formal <language> at their own speed, but
cannot recognize even the word breaks in native-spoken <language> at full
speed. Again, I take this from experience in Japanese class. Some people
can learn exactly what's in a book, while others can learn the overall
theme of that same book. I learned about the overall method of Japanese
more than I learned precise vocabulary and grammar - now I'm trying to make
up for that.

Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."

Message no. 72 Sorry for the belated reply, I postponed replying and I forgot about it.
:)

On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:50:42 +0000 Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
writes:
>and thus did D. Ghost speak on 31 Oct 98 at 17:41:
<SNIP>
>>IF you want to sway my opinion,
>>show me one person who does not have a disability, and who can read or
>>write but cannot do the other. If you can do that, I'll propose that
>>reading, writing, speaking and hearing a language should be 4 different
>>skills.

>I could send you a picture of me, and I can honestly say that I do
>not have any disabilities :). I can read French, Italian and Spanish
>but cannot write, understand or speak it (at least not at the level
>at which I can read it). Latin would be a good fourth choice. But
>then again one person should not be enough to make up new rules for:)
>People who learnt a language in school, don't use it for ages will be
>best of reading a piece.
>My subdivision didn't exclude skills like Public speaking, etc. etc.,
>the thing I wanted to suggest that when you try to pull something
>using those skills in a foreign language the average of the (special
>skill + language skill) /2 would be appropriate. But I probably
>didn't say it that way :)
<SNIP>

I see what you're saying. However, I don't think that the problem is
that your skill level is different but rather that with reading (and
hearing) a language, you are recognizing the words you know and puzzling
out the words you don't. When you are trying to write (or speak), you
have to remember the words (and how to use them) off the top of your
head. Thus, I propose that for novices to a language, writing and
speaking is respectively harder than reading and hearing a language.
Therefore what you percieve as a lower skill rating, I believe to be a
higher target number. When a character's skill gets higher, the
difficulties for the two actions will even out. (Think about it: Are you
really drawing from a different pool of known words? Do you know how to
read "Bonjour" but can't write it to save your life?)

When you responded to my question about showing my someone who can read
or write better than the other, you answered with foreign languages,
didn't you? What about your native language? Can you read significantly
better than you write?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Message no. 73 and thus did D. Ghost speak on 7 Nov 98 at 14:23:

> I see what you're saying. However, I don't think that the problem
> is that your skill level is different but rather that with reading
> (and hearing) a language, you are recognizing the words you know and
> puzzling out the words you don't. When you are trying to write (or
> speak), you have to remember the words (and how to use them) off the
> top of your head. Thus, I propose that for novices to a language,
> writing and speaking is respectively harder than reading and hearing
> a language. Therefore what you percieve as a lower skill rating, I
> believe to be a higher target number. When a character's skill gets
> higher, the difficulties for the two actions will even out. (Think
> about it: Are you really drawing from a different pool of known
> words? Do you know how to read "Bonjour" but can't write it to save
> your life?)

I was more thinking along the lines that if you have to write a
sentence you need to draw from completementing things than just your
vocabulary. when you read/listen things like grammar or knowing how
to spell a word are secondary to having a good vocabulary. Now once
you start becoming active with a language it suddenly matters that
you know how to write a word and in what order. With languages that
use a different alphabet it becomes even more difficult in my
experience. I know how to read and write bonjour, but don't think
that making a coherent sentence is still one of the things I can do.
(for the record I did have five long torturous years of French).

> When you responded to my question about showing my someone who can
> read or write better than the other, you answered with foreign
> languages, didn't you? What about your native language? Can you
> read significantly better than you write?

No, for someone with a basic level of education read/write should be
at the same level for their own language. But remember it's not just
words and how to write them we're talking about, it's also grammar.
I've noticed that a lot of my family who didn't have much education
beyond the basic, cannot write a decent letter without lots of
spelling mistakes, grammar confusion or just a decent wording of
their ideas if their life depended on it (they left it up to me :/ ).
So if you look at it from a simple "convey idea" point of view,
you're right, but if you look at quality I would say reading and
writing are different.

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

Message no. 74 On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:20:32 +0000 Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
writes:
>and thus did D. Ghost speak on 7 Nov 98 at 14:23:
<SNIP>
>> Thus, I propose that for novices to a language,
>> writing and speaking is respectively harder than reading and hearing
>> a language. Therefore what you percieve as a lower skill rating, I
>> believe to be a higher target number.
<SNIP>

>I was more thinking along the lines that if you have to write a
>sentence you need to draw from completementing things than just your
>vocabulary. when you read/listen things like grammar or knowing how
>to spell a word are secondary to having a good vocabulary. Now once
>you start becoming active with a language it suddenly matters that
>you know how to write a word and in what order. With languages that
>use a different alphabet it becomes even more difficult in my
>experience. I know how to read and write bonjour, but don't think
>that making a coherent sentence is still one of the things I can do.
>(for the record I did have five long torturous years of French).

But, I don't think it's because your skill differs. I believe it is
because one task is inherently (sp?) harder than the other. You pool of
vocabulary is not different, your understanding of grammar is constant.
What about your grasp of the language is different when you read as
opposed to when you write?

<SNIP>
>So if you look at it from a simple "convey idea" point of view,
>you're right, but if you look at quality I would say reading and
>writing are different.

But why? Is it a skill level difference or a TN# difference (in SR
terms).

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Message no. 75 Heya gang,

As I recall there was a listing of languages in the 2nd Edition of
Shadowrun. Last Saturday I got together with 2 of my players to make
characters for the upcomming game. One player chose to play a native
American character and promptly asked what languages were available for
Amerindians.

I realize that this poses little problem to those of you who are a bit
more worldly, but I have lived a somewhat sheltered existence. I know
that Sperethial (sp?) is the only *new* language... although Trog is
listed as a dialect that can be used for specialization in languages,
Dragons talk via ESP as best I can tell, and Dryads are listed as
having there own language but it is not given a name. Not to mention
the language that Harlequin speeks, but I am getting off track again...
Anyhow what I really need is a somewhat complete list of languages
(really, I dont ask for miracles much) and maybe a listing of any other
languages unique to Shadowrun.

The Ever Present,
--Aristotle
"This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the
beauty of the baud." -- The Mentor, Hacker's Manifesto

Message no. 76 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Aristotle."
] As I recall there was a listing of languages in the 2nd Edition of
] Shadowrun. Last Saturday I got together with 2 of my players to make
] characters for the upcomming game. One player chose to play a native
] American character and promptly asked what languages were available for
] Amerindians.
]
] I realize that this poses little problem to those of you who are a bit
] more worldly, but I have lived a somewhat sheltered existence. I know
] that Sperethial (sp?) is the only *new* language... although Trog is
] listed as a dialect that can be used for specialization in languages,
] Dragons talk via ESP as best I can tell, and Dryads are listed as
] having there own language but it is not given a name. Not to mention
] the language that Harlequin speeks, but I am getting off track again...
] Anyhow what I really need is a somewhat complete list of languages
] (really, I dont ask for miracles much) and maybe a listing of any other
] languages unique to Shadowrun.

Geez, you're not asking much, are you? :)

Thing is, even if someone did want to type up the over-one-hundred
languages for you, they wouldn't help you too much, 'cause the
categories are by language group (example: Khoisan group--Bushman,
Hadza, Hottentot, Nama, Sandawe). Doesn't exactly tell you where the
heck they speak Hottentot, does it? The library is your best
bet...look up the region that the character is to be from (or get that
player to do it), and then find out what languages they speak there.
This will have the wonderful side-effect of teaching that player a
bunch about the culture of said group, which will in turn make her/his
playing experience much more enjoyable (in my experience, that is).

Or if you're lazy, tell me which area of NA this person wants to be
from, and I'll tell you what tribes are there, as printed in the NAN
books (which may or may not be very accurate, and it definitely won't
be completely comprehensive). You can mail me privately for this, I
think.

-Murder of One

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer