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Message no. 1
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Levitate: most deadly combat spell?
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 1994 09:25:57 +1000
(Here's a letter dictated to me by our GM, to see what you all think...)

Our Snake shaman has decided never to cast Combat spells, so he's
now casting Manipulation spells instead. E.g. Levitate Person.
He has Magic 10 (grade 5 Initiate), and Increase Reaction +4.
So, in the following, say he will roll an average of 2 successes
on the spell, and gets 3 actions.

So he can move people 2 x 10 x 3 = 60m / round. (Note that SR I
would limit this to 30m.), i.e. 72kph. This does 7S damage, no
combat pool reductions. (This is actually conservative - more
likely 4 or 5 successes, so a damage of 14S!)

Technically, because there are no rules for acceleration in SR, if
he catches his victims between walls 2m apart, he can do the 7S
damage 30 times in a round.

Now, I might rule that a change of direction is an action, and that
the victim thus gets hit only 3 times at a lesser speed. In which
case he will choose instead to smash people into the ground at full
speed.

I can also say to _him_, Snakes don't fight if they can escape.
But questions arise:
1) Is the base Target Number really 4? In SR I the implication
is that it's Body.
2) If the TN is 4, is this so even if the victim is resisting?
(I.e., can the victim resist?)
3) Does anyone have a table of weights for cyberware (e.g.
dermal plating). [The rule of 50kg per point of Body means
the average person weighs 100 to 150 kg (220 to 330 lbs) -
quite excessive.]
4) How much can the Levitate change the orientation of the
victim. He argues that he should be able to rotate them
so that they face away from him, so they can't shoot at him.

Any other comments on this most deadly of all combat spells?

And almost changing the subject...

Another player argues that impacts or intense heat should cause
ammo on the victim to explode, even if the victim is not damaged
by the attack. Any comments on this?

Jon

Funnily enough (not), this is going to be very relevant in our upcoming
game this Friday. Tricked, it seems, and attacked by 12 guys in
full Security armour, with (drug?) boosted Will and Body; suddenly,
Levitate is seen to offer a solution.

What do you think? All thoughtful comments will be much appreciated.
Even if we suffer as a result.

luke
Message no. 2
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Levitate: most deadly combat spell?
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 1994 20:30:58 +1000
Jon & luke write:

> So he can move people 2 x 10 x 3 = 60m / round. (Note that SR I
> would limit this to 30m.), i.e. 72kph. This does 7S damage, no
> combat pool reductions. (This is actually conservative - more
> likely 4 or 5 successes, so a damage of 14S!)

Well, not that it answers your question, but its only 6S. The power equals
the cruising speed/10, and the cruising speed is in m/round. But it is a very
clever tactic. Something I've never thought of. Congratulate him on his pure
evilness for me. Actually, a thought just struck me. It is a lot worse than
you thought it was. "Objects can move the full "distance" within one Action
Phase." Hence the effected person would move 10 x 2 m in one _Phase_.
Assuming 21 phases (the minimum for 3 actions), then the person would move
20 m in 3/21 of a second (thats 140 m/s! which is 420 m/round, which means
42D damage!!). As you said - it gets a lot worse if you take into account
more successes than two, and have rounds go for longer than 21 phases.

> Technically, because there are no rules for acceleration in SR, if
> he catches his victims between walls 2m apart, he can do the 7S
> damage 30 times in a round.

I wouldn't allow this. I would only allow one impact per action. (Not that
it would matter at 42D).

> Now, I might rule that a change of direction is an action, and that
> the victim thus gets hit only 3 times at a lesser speed. In which
> case he will choose instead to smash people into the ground at full
> speed.

Like above, I would say one impact per action, so you wouldn't get any
bonuses for moving a person for the entire round before slamming them into
something.

> 1) Is the base Target Number really 4? In SR I the implication
> is that it's Body.

Well, as far as the Grimything goes - yeah.

> 2) If the TN is 4, is this so even if the victim is resisting?
> (I.e., can the victim resist?)

Read under the big heading "Manipulation Spells" on page 156. It says that a
manipulation spell that affects a character contrary to his wishes must be
resisted. The spell is resisted with Willpower.

> 3) Does anyone have a table of weights for cyberware (e.g.
> dermal plating). [The rule of 50kg per point of Body means
> the average person weighs 100 to 150 kg (220 to 330 lbs) -
> quite excessive.]

Yeah, I agree with that, quite exccessive. I wouldn't think most cyberwares
would add too much weight to the recipient. Bone lacing actually states that
it does, but it is the only one. I would say all others would be negligible.

> 4) How much can the Levitate change the orientation of the
> victim. He argues that he should be able to rotate them
> so that they face away from him, so they can't shoot at him.

I would say no. Just to be a prick really. But as far as the rules go - you
can move them horizonatlly and vertically, but it don't say shit about
rotating them. So I could argue from the book if needed, and perhaps even
convince somebody that you couldn't rotate a victim.

> Any other comments on this most deadly of all combat spells?

Yeah, whoever thought of the idea of using it is particularily evil :-)

> Another player argues that impacts or intense heat should cause
> ammo on the victim to explode, even if the victim is not damaged
> by the attack. Any comments on this?

Intense heat maybe, but it would need to be a pretty nasty impact (and I
doubt one which did no damage to the victim would be anywhere near enough -
unless it was one of Ivys 350 karma pool characters and they used their entire
karma pool to reroll the dice enough times). For the intense heat, use the
rules from the Grimything about fire elemental effects.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+) !tv(--)@ b++ D+ B?
e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 3
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Levitate: most deadly combat spell?
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 1994 10:30:55 -0500
You know, accellerating someone (or something) to 70kph and then creating an
unfortunate impact with, say, a wall, means that they go from 70kph to 0kph in
what is effectively several centimeters.

A car going 60kph that hits a tree and decelerates to 0kph in 0.7m generates
well over 1.2*10^12 times the force of gravity in decelerative forces. Now,
if you decrease that distance and increase the speed...the shock wave from the
impact should cause hydrostatic shock along all their major blood vessels and
rip their heart valves apart. =)

Thank you, and have a nice day.
Message no. 4
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Levitate: most deadly combat spell?
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 1994 11:29:16 +1000
> A car going 60kph that hits a tree and decelerates to 0kph in 0.7m generates
> well over 1.2*10^12 times the force of gravity in decelerative forces. Now,
> if you decrease that distance and increase the speed...the shock wave from the
> impact should cause hydrostatic shock along all their major blood vessels and
> rip their heart valves apart. =)
>
> Thank you, and have a nice day.

Yep, and a person hitting a wall at the same speed will be screwed. Hence
the 42D damage. I'd call that screwed.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+) !tv(--)@ b++ D+ B?
e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 5
From: Stuart Skabo <sj_skabo@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Levitate: most deadly combat spell?
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 1994 13:50:43 +1000
>But questions arise:
> 1) Is the base Target Number really 4? In SR I the implication
> is that it's Body.
Yes
> 2) If the TN is 4, is this so even if the victim is resisting?
> (I.e., can the victim resist?)

NB this is a Voluntary Target spell so you can't pick up a resisting target
and do your neat tricks without designing a new spell! with higher drain
code etc for resisting target vs voluntary (see Grimoire II)

> 4) How much can the Levitate change the orientation of the
> victim. He argues that he should be able to rotate them
> so that they face away from him, so they can't shoot at him.

I would design the new spell with this implicitly in the description.

My mage hates walking it is very incool, so i made the levitate spell have
unltd range, sustained, with all movements possible (virtually a fly spell)
which is the most useful adaptation of this "most deadly of spells" that i
can think of.

until your evil and dangerous idea came up of cousre :)
>
>What do you think? All thoughtful comments will be much appreciated.
>Even if we suffer as a result.
>
>luke

just, nghtchld
Message no. 6
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Levitate: most deadly combat spell?
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:15:39 +1000
s = Stuart Skabo

> >But questions arise:
> > 1) Is the base Target Number really 4? In SR I the implication
> > is that it's Body.
s> Yes
> > 2) If the TN is 4, is this so even if the victim is resisting?
> > (I.e., can the victim resist?)

s> NB this is a Voluntary Target spell so you can't pick up a resisting target
s> and do your neat tricks without designing a new spell! with higher drain
s> code etc for resisting target vs voluntary (see Grimoire II)

We checked this last night, and could find nothing to indicate it required
a voluntary subject. Do you have a reference to what made you think this?

I can see why the TN for Levitate Person should be one of Body or Willpower;
but what about Levitate Item, used exactly the same way, but cast at the
armour (or clothes) that the person is wearing. Why wouldn't that be TN 4?

luke
Message no. 7
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Levitate: most deadly combat spell?
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 1994 00:50:18 +1000
luke writes:

> We checked this last night, and could find nothing to indicate it required
> a voluntary subject. Do you have a reference to what made you think this?
>
> I can see why the TN for Levitate Person should be one of Body or Willpower;
> but what about Levitate Item, used exactly the same way, but cast at the
> armour (or clothes) that the person is wearing. Why wouldn't that be TN 4?

Well, levitate isn't a volumtary spell. If the target doesnt want to be
levitated then they get to resist with Willpower. Re page 156, second
column, under the bold heading "Manipulation Spells".

As for the clothing, it wouldn't get to resist. Nor would the person in it.
But it would need to be able to support the person to actually lift them.
Awh, imagine the wedgee you could give somebody :-). I might think the
target for the spells would be based on the object resistance table though,
rather than a base of 4. But as for people, the target number is usually 5
'caus they count for the greater portion of 100kg (unless they're a troll
sammie, in which case - forget the levitate).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+) !tv(--)@ b++ D+ B?
e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+

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