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Message no. 1
From: John Fox <johnf@*****.EDU>
Subject: Military and FASA Archetypes
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 19:27:48 -0600
Here are some thoughts on the debate on how much cyberware infantrymen of
the future will have.

1. The Sprawl Sites book has several military archetypes: dwarf mercenary,
former military officer, and the former tribal warrior. All of these
characters have essences above 5, although the dwarf does have boosted 1.

2. Someone suggested that the Seattle Metroplex Guard is an ideal example
of a modern military force. The guard contact has no cyber. I think the
Seattle book mentions that go-gangs wipe the street clean of guard members.

3. Cybered soldiers might last longer, but when they're dead, they're
dead, and you're out 200,000 nuyen. What happens when the enemy lobs some
expensive artillery shells over to the cyber-soldiers's barracks? They're
all dead and you're out many millions of nuyen in expensive gadgets.

4. Someone suggested that the military gets a volume discount when buying
things. After hearing many stories about $800 hammers and toilet seats I
tend to discount any suggestion that the army is able to save money.

5. I agree that future armies will be much smaller. The coomentary for the
officer archetype says that future armies are divided into small,
specialized units. However, it doesn't mention anything about how these
units are all jungle samurai.

6. I think FASA's combat system overemphasizes the benefits of increased
initiative (wired reflexes, etc.)

7. I think reliance on the infantry as a whole will decrease, because of
high mortality rates. I think governents will prefer to blast each other
with missles, send commandoes to harass the otherr side, or leave off the
whole thing altogether. I see the infantry more as something to roll out
to quell riots than to fight other nations.

John Fox
johnf@*****.edu
Message no. 2
From: Ben Jordan <jordanbd@***.BELOIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military and FASA Archetypes
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 14:35:43 +22310502
To sorrect a misinterpritation, I ment the Metro Plex Guard as an example of
what the piddly outdated reserves of he armed forces look like. You just
set your own example by pointing out how badly they get toasted when they
fight. It is just pathetic. If my party can take out a platoon+ of
infantry, you might as well ditch the army all together. They are useless.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, will tollerate a body count that high. No army
will exist because NO ONE WILL JOIN IT!! IF I am going to be killed by a
bunch of gang members to no purpous, you will pardon me for not joining.
What are they going to do, send a company of troops after me? Take away my
SIN?

I agree that what the game says about the army is different from what I am
saying. What I am saying is that the military needs to be revised to be a
bit more formitable or just gotten rid of. They have the same problem the
Lone Stars did with my last party. We just killed them indescriminatly.
They couldn't even think about getting in our way. Their bullets couldn't
hurt us and they were usually dead before they knew what had happened. we
always left before any significant back up could get there, leaving a pile
of dead cops behind us. That is no way to run a police force--even if they
just lose a few cops a day in gang violence, that is an increadibl;e loss of
life. I am sure that the parent company of Lone Star would want to know why
so many employees widows are suddenly collecting compansation.

I do not see how the military or police in Shadow Run can remain as they
are. The group I play with love the system except for this exception.

Sorry if I sound dogmatic, but if a bunch of city punks can walk all over my
military and police then there is very little point in having any is there?
A major orginazation like the Yakuza could probably just kill them off and
take over with no effort at all. Might as well just scrap the whole thing
and save yourself a lot of money. After all if you are invaded you would be
better off just hiring a bunch of people to make a run against the offending
nation.
--

Ben-ha-meen
--i feel evil. like, that i am evil, not that
i feel an evil presence or something--

james mcculloch
Message no. 3
From: John Fox <johnf@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military and FASA Archetypes
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 15:32:24 -0600
> Sorry if I sound dogmatic, but if a bunch of city punks can walk all over my
> military and police then there is very little point in having any is there?
> A major orginazation like the Yakuza could probably just kill them off and
> take over with no effort at all. Might as well just scrap the whole thing
> and save yourself a lot of money. After all if you are invaded you would be
> better off just hiring a bunch of people to make a run against the offending
> nation.

Today, in the grand old U.S. of A., street punks are better armed than
police, and are about equal to an infantryman. AK-47's, AR-15's, and other
assualt weapons (my favorite, the "Street Sweeper") are widely available,
both legally and illegally. The average cop packs only revolver or
perhaps an automatic if they have a good union. A device to convert a
semi-auto weapon to full-auto is cheap and easily available. Yet, somehow
order is still maintained. The reasons are numbers. There may be a few
thousand heavily armed punks in a city, but they are all members of rival
gangs who hate each other. Meanwhile, there are even more police, all
working together to stop the menace. If some lowlifes dust off a few cops
the entire neighborhood will be inundated with reinforcements. This is
something that some SR GM's fail to realize. Obviously, the average runner
can take out cops and military people, but the response to their actions
will be unavoidable.

In 2050 the purpose of the infantry will still not be to take on wired
shadowrunners. That is the job of SWAT Teams or FBI Fast Response Teams
(from NAN 1).

The only urban application for the infantry is in riot control. In the
recent LA riots, the people rioting were NOT armed with heavy weaponry,
even though such items are available. Most of the petty criminals in the
Seattle Barrens are also not equipped very well.

In the recent Waco standoff heavily armed Davidians blasted lightly armed
ATF agents. But when heavier forces rushed to the site, the option of
violence was no longer avilable.

Moral: No matter how much cyberware a street punk or yak or mafioso has,
the government has unlimited sresources and will get you back of you kill
cops or soldiers.


John Fox
johnf@*****.edu
Message no. 4
From: Thomas Frost <frost@******.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military and FASA Archetypes
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 16:56:52 -0500
> > Sorry if I sound dogmatic, but if a bunch of city punks can walk
> > all over my military and police then there is very little point in
> > having any is there?

> Today, in the grand old U.S. of A., street punks are better armed
> than police, and are about equal to an infantryman.
...
> cheap and easily available. Yet, somehow order is still maintained.
> The reasons are numbers. There may be a few thousand heavily armed
> punks in a city, but they are all members of rival gangs who hate
> each other.

(Which formed part of the premise of "The Warriors" a few years back.)

The other thing is that gangs know they're walking a fine line. If
they get too rambunctious, too violent, etc., they know the public
will be screaming for better-equipped police departments, more cops,
fewer silly restrictions on officer-related shootings....This should
apply to Shadowrun as well. If the characters go around blowing lots
of cops away, there sure as heck BETTER be a public outcry! (Not to
mention a lot of cops ignoring the usual rules. Cops *hate* when one
of their own goes down.)

--
Spoken: Thomas (Frost) | "The rats eat the cats,
Smart: frost@******.umd.edu | the cats eat the rats,
Not smart: umiacs!frost | and we get the skins for free!"
Message no. 5
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military and FASA Archetypes
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 17:26:08 -0600
>They have the same problem the
>Lone Stars did with my last party.
>We just killed them indescriminatly.
>They couldn't even think about getting in our way.

Then the GM wasn't playing them right. He wasn't playing them *smart*.

>Their bullets couldn't hurt us and they were usually dead before they knew
>what had happened. We always left before any significant back up could get
>there, leaving a pile of dead cops behind us.

Cops will not just stand there and let themselves get shot at. They will
stay behind cover or remain in their vehicle until backup arrives if the
perpetrators are too powerful to be taken out. As for backup, you seem
to be assuming that the proverbial cavalry rush to the scene of the crime.
When cops call backup, they describe the perpetrators and any vehicles they
may be in. . .if cops rushing to the scene see a car matching the description
of the one described they will follow it. even if you "evade" a helicopter
will fly above and be watching for you. And they will *keep* looking for
you for days after you "escape", and will add the incident to whatever file
they may have on you (even if SINless) already.

>That is no way to run a police force

See comments above. And add to that the likliehood of vehicular cameras
in the vehicle to record any chases or observed illegal activity--or even
little minicams ala the ones the marines use in "Aliens" transmitting back
to the command vehicle, or via a system like the cellular network feeding
back to a central or sub-central station, so that you can't destroy the visuals
after killing the cop or mauling his car.

>I do not see how the military or police in Shadow Run can remain as they
>are. The group I play with love the system except for this exception.

Cops and the military play things smart. They may not win the battle, but they
will win the war.

The collect and collate information. Compare descriptions, MOs, and other
facts until they make connections. Then they wait for the next move and
start tracking the killer. They ask questions and follow people. The police
are remarkably good and finding things out; just read the case history of
any given investigation. This is not to say that it's impossible to evade
the law, but it's difficult and requires just as much planning as a single
run. . .especially if things, as they often do, go wrong. Easily evading
cops is cinematic.

>Sorry if I sound dogmatic, but if a bunch of city punks can walk all over my
>military and police then there is very little point in having any is there?

Well, they can't, unless you let them. If you can, find an old issue of
Dragon with Roger Moore describes "Tucker's Kobolds" wherein he recounts
how a GM killed half a high level AD&D party with a tribe of Kobolds who
basically used guerilla warfare to haze the party en route to a dragon's lair.


J Roberson
Message no. 6
From: Ben Jordan <jordanbd@***.BELOIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military and FASA Archetypes
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 23:41:11 +22310502
The point is that the cops never got a chance to call backup. And You get
the vehical too, if you have time.

And they did hunt us. We are careful and they were no more dangerious than
the corp were when reacting to our runs. Guess it just depends on how you
do your runs. We never stay at the sight of a fire fight for more than
turn. That keeps us alive. If you stay you are sure to die. Turns are
very fast really, and we don,t like to take more than two or three turns to
do what we have to in a location. We kind of play it by ear. No far
reaching plans--they never survive the first action.

The police sort of needed to be a bit more powerful to deal with my party.
It was not a big deal to make then so. We just got a new tougher police
force for Seattle. We just cybered them. It was nessacary.

Now we fear even one police officer, because he will probably kill us. Very
literal minded party. I just feel that using cyber in military and police
forces in Shadow Run is perfectly viable. Enough said. You have not
convinced me, but you have changed some of my ideas. I will now leave this
discussion to rest in peace.
--

Ben-ha-meen
--i feel evil. like, that i am evil, not that
i feel an evil presence or something--

james mcculloch

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