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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 17:25:00 2001
On 2/20/01 11:15 am, Bai Shen said:

>> >also, what is a good way to excuse my PC for having a monfilament whip at
>> >the start of a game...
>> Personal Opinion, None. It is a stupid piece of equiptment and never
>> should have existed in the game. That said if your game master is
>> allowing them and not going to be too cruel with fumbles then most of the
>> above character backgrounds will cover you.
>
>C'mon, Steve, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel. :)
>Seriously, though, why don't you like the whip?
>
>Bai Shen
>
>


Well a couple of reasons.

1) The name is wrong, You could make a Monofilament whip today by going
to any sporting goods store and picking up a spool of halfway decent
fishingline and a lead sinker. Tie the monofilament line to a handle,
attach the weight to the line about 6 feet from the handle and cut the
rest off. You know what? It wouldn't cause one but more damage than a
similarly constructed whip using nylon string. All the damage would
result from the momentum of the weight and not from any properties of the
line.

2) Assuming they were really refering to the mythical properties of near
monomolecular lines then we have even greater problems. For example if
they actually do cut all that well then how exactly do you propose to
attach a weight to the tip? It would cut through whatever attachment
methood you used long before you landed a blow with it and then you've
got a very expensive one shot sling. If it doesn't cut all that well then
we are back at Problem #1, it's not really going to cause any more damage
than a weight attached to the end of a 6' piece of rope.

3) If they do cut that well and you can come up with some way of
attaching them to a weight (by the way the weight is necessary to give
the line enough mass to do anything, without it swinging it would be like
attempting to use a fly fishing rod and you'd never hit anything forget
hit it hard enough to cut a piece of paper) then you are still talking
about a weapon which will slice the fingers off of even a highly trained
individual, and not just when he's using it as a weapon. All he'd need to
do is brush his hand by the coiled line to give himself a nasty cut. It
would be virtually impossible to use it for any length of time without
injuring yourself severely (in Game mecahnics Terms it would be every
time you fail to get any successes against your opponent then consider it
to have hit yourself and resist the damage accordingly), this is not
something any sane individual would chose to use as a weapon, no matter
how cool they looked and anyone insane enough to try it wouldn't live
long enough to matter.

4) Finally if somehow you get solutions to the first 3 then for a little
while after they are invented everyone and their brother will be using
them as weapons because they are so damned effective. Less than a year
later the same monofilament technology (if it doesn't happen before the
whips are invented anyway) will be used to create Woven Monofilament
Armor which will bounce any bullets short of a .50 Cal and be completely
impervious to Monofilament whips as well as being lighter and more
flexable than any armor currently existing (it would feel like you were
wearing a heavy sweater) and everyone from the highest level Corp CEO to
the Lowest level Street Cop would be wearing it for fear that some yahoo
is going to come after them with a Monowhip. I won't go into the other
radical tech advances that mass production of true Monomolecular wires
would bring (most of which are not present in Shadowrun).


The monofilament whip is nothing more than a piece of tech that someone
saw in an anime show, thought was cool and introduced to Shadowrun, it
doesn't work within the tech level presented by the game world. If they
wanted some kind of high tech whip for cool effects then they should have
had a stun whip, a combination of a Stun Baton and a Whip. This could
easily have been created (indeed would have been likely to have been
invented), provided the same level of coolness and been completely inline
with the tech level described in Shadowrun.


That enough of a Rant on Monofilament Whips for ya :-)

Steve
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Curtis Askren)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 17:35:04 2001
--- Steve Collins <einan@*********.net> wrote:
> On 2/20/01 11:15 am, Bai Shen said:

<Snip that whole thing>

> That enough of a Rant on Monofilament Whips for ya
> :-)
>
> Steve
>

One word... wow!

very nicely done Steve.

-Dr.Vyk,

That male night-One with unkempt midnight blue fur,
Davion
The Unwashed Toast


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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shane Hyde)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 17:45:01 2001
> That enough of a Rant on Monofilament Whips for ya
> :-)

What about the inclusion of Monofilament whips into the whole Cyberpunk
Genre. How can we now have a Cyberpunk game without monowhips!!?? [wails]

William Gibson must be turning in his... er... living room?

Niice idea about the stun whip, tho

Shane
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 17:55:01 2001
On 2/21/01 2:43 pm, Shane Hyde said:

>> That enough of a Rant on Monofilament Whips for ya
>> :-)
>
>What about the inclusion of Monofilament whips into the whole Cyberpunk
>Genre. How can we now have a Cyberpunk game without monowhips!!?? [wails]
>
>William Gibson must be turning in his... er... living room?
>
>Niice idea about the stun whip, tho
>
>Shane
>
>
>

Well I'm sure Gibson got the idea either from Larry Niven's Ringworld or
some other earlier source. He wasn't known for his originality. The only
problem is that in all of the other books where I have seen Monowhips or
widescale use of monomolecular lines there was a MUCH higher general
level of tech, and in some of them (like Ringworld) they were still so
advanced as to be nearly magical in nature to the people in the books (as
in they knew what they were but had no clue how to make them).

Steve
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shane Hyde)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 18:05:01 2001
>Well I'm sure Gibson got the idea either from Larry Niven's Ringworld or
>some other earlier source. He wasn't known for his originality. The only
>problem is that in all of the other books where I have seen Monowhips or
>widescale use of monomolecular lines there was a MUCH higher general
>level of tech, and in some of them (like Ringworld) they were still so
>advanced as to be nearly magical in nature to the people in the books (as
>in they knew what they were but had no clue how to make them).


Given the magical nature of the SR universe, perhaps it may be likely that
something so improbable should exist. After all, so do Dragons.

And although you've listed some really well thought out and argued reasons
as to why they should not be present in the game, what about the fact that
they're basically a staple of the Cyberpunk genre (like direct neural
interface with computers) and to remove them would be to remove a little of
that cyberpunk magic.

Shane
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Eric Wiser)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 19:00:01 2001
Steve Collins wrote:

<snip>

> 2) Assuming they were really refering to the mythical properties of near
> monomolecular lines then we have even greater problems. For example if
> they actually do cut all that well then how exactly do you propose to
> attach a weight to the tip? It would cut through whatever attachment
> methood you used long before you landed a blow with it and then you've
> got a very expensive one shot sling. If it doesn't cut all that well then
> we are back at Problem #1, it's not really going to cause any more damage
> than a weight attached to the end of a 6' piece of rope.
>

Couple of points: A Monofiliment whip and a mono molecular whip are two
different things. A mono molecular whip is (as indicated) only a single molecule
in size whereas a molo filiment whip is not limited in the way. As far as
cutting, that is just a function of the wedge that you are working with and the
force that is used in conjunction with it. A single filament does provide an
almost unmatchable wedge; the smaller the filament the greater the wedge and the
less force must be exerted in order for it to cut. The weight at the end just
provides enough weight for the line to go where you want it to without worrying
about wind and such. Once it gets there it will wrap around the target and then
the act of pulling the whip back for the second strike would cut right through
whatever it wrapped around. Attachment really isn't a problem for two reasons.
The first is that lacking that the 'pulling' force that is exerted to cause the
cut isn't directed at the weight attached at the end and second, if the correct
bonding procedure was used, the weight at the end would effectively be a part of
the whip not attached to it.

>
> 3) If they do cut that well and you can come up with some way of
> attaching them to a weight (by the way the weight is necessary to give
> the line enough mass to do anything, without it swinging it would be like
> attempting to use a fly fishing rod and you'd never hit anything forget
> hit it hard enough to cut a piece of paper) then you are still talking
> about a weapon which will slice the fingers off of even a highly trained
> individual, and not just when he's using it as a weapon. All he'd need to
> do is brush his hand by the coiled line to give himself a nasty cut. It
> would be virtually impossible to use it for any length of time without
> injuring yourself severely (in Game mecahnics Terms it would be every
> time you fail to get any successes against your opponent then consider it
> to have hit yourself and resist the damage accordingly), this is not
> something any sane individual would chose to use as a weapon, no matter
> how cool they looked and anyone insane enough to try it wouldn't live
> long enough to matter.
>

When you swing a whip you swing outwards and crack it, so the chances of hitting
yourself enough to wrap around an arm or a leg is fairly slim. With this kind
of weapon, using it like a grappling hook would probably be more effective since
the goal is to cut and not strike, so the risk goes up since you are effectively
swing in an arc, intending to circle something. The only time that the risk
would be really high is if you were after somebody's head and neck. The swing
for this, if you missed, could come back to haunt you. This would definitely not
be a beginner's weapon due to the danger, but if you use it right the risks
aren't as great as people imagine.


>
> 4) Finally if somehow you get solutions to the first 3 then for a little
> while after they are invented everyone and their brother will be using
> them as weapons because they are so damned effective. Less than a year
> later the same monofilament technology (if it doesn't happen before the
> whips are invented anyway) will be used to create Woven Monofilament
> Armor which will bounce any bullets short of a .50 Cal and be completely
> impervious to Monofilament whips as well as being lighter and more
> flexable than any armor currently existing (it would feel like you were
> wearing a heavy sweater) and everyone from the highest level Corp CEO to
> the Lowest level Street Cop would be wearing it for fear that some yahoo
> is going to come after them with a Monowhip. I won't go into the other
> radical tech advances that mass production of true Monomolecular wires
> would bring (most of which are not present in Shadowrun).

I agree with this one. In fact I use it in my games all the time. The way that
I balance the great armor is by street index and cost. I call it security to
military grade armor and treat availability accordingly. I also bump up the cost
by a factor of 10 to a factor of 100 depending on the size. Just think about how
many fibers have to go into the average bullet proof vest and the specialized
equipment that it takes to handle the stuff !

If you want to look at a compound that has similar properties to this, take a
look at fulurene and its cousin compounds. They can be used to form a perfect
carbon matrix called a buckeytube or buckeyball, and scientists in the USA and
Japan are working on them today. They are incredibly expensive to make and the
current world production is somewhere in the milligram to gram per year range.

>
>
> The monofilament whip is nothing more than a piece of tech that someone
> saw in an anime show, thought was cool and introduced to Shadowrun, it
> doesn't work within the tech level presented by the game world. If they
> wanted some kind of high tech whip for cool effects then they should have
> had a stun whip, a combination of a Stun Baton and a Whip. This could
> easily have been created (indeed would have been likely to have been
> invented), provided the same level of coolness and been completely inline
> with the tech level described in Shadowrun.
>
> That enough of a Rant on Monofilament Whips for ya :-)
>
> Steve

Like the stun whip idea a lot - may run my PC's into something like them is this
game :)
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 23:05:01 2001
>Couple of points: A Monofiliment whip and a mono molecular whip are two
>different things. A mono molecular whip is (as indicated) only a single
molecule
>in size whereas a molo filiment whip is not limited in the way. As far as
>cutting, that is just a function of the wedge that you are working with and
the
>force that is used in conjunction with it. A single filament does provide
an
>almost unmatchable wedge; the smaller the filament the greater the wedge
and the
>less force must be exerted in order for it to cut.

The smaller the filament, the more likely it is to break. How much force
can even a pure "diamond" fiber that is only .1 MM in diameter support? .1
MM is prety damn thick, as far as cutting edges go. Like apiece of typing
paper- yeah, you could get a paper cut, but its no razors edge.

>The weight at the end just
>provides enough weight for the line to go where you want it to without
worrying
>about wind and such. Once it gets there it will wrap around the target and
then
>the act of pulling the whip back for the second strike would cut right
through
>whatever it wrapped around.

If you pull harder than the tensile strength, it just snaps, not cuts. And
what if the weight hits something first- no cutting then!

>When you swing a whip you swing outwards and crack it, so the chances of
hitting
>yourself enough to wrap around an arm or a leg is fairly slim.

Whips crack because they are tapered. Strings with weights on the endg
don't "crack", the swing around in perfect circles, assuming they don't hit
anything. Its not just that the "best" way to use the weapon is swinging it
in an arc- its the ONLY way.

<snip filamnt armor>
>I agree with this one. In fact I use it in my games all the time. The way
that
>I balance the great armor is by street index and cost. I call it security
to
>military grade armor and treat availability accordingly. I also bump up
the cost
>by a factor of 10 to a factor of 100 depending on the size. Just think
about how
>many fibers have to go into the average bullet proof vest and the
specialized
>equipment that it takes to handle the stuff !

Funny thing is, monwhips are real expensive, but monfilament for fence tops
and construction- the exact same stuff, just without a handle, weight, and
retracting spool- is pretty darn cheap. It would take a LOT to make a
fabric, though.

>Like the stun whip idea a lot - may run my PC's into something like them is
this
>game :)

I'd been pestering my GM for one of those for quite a while, and he kept
saying no. Doesn't even seem like a very fancy piece of tech, although
compared to a tazer / schock batton you might want to add some circuits to
stop it from shorting when the whip contacts itself after it winds around
someone. Having each 3 inches of the whip on independant circuits would do
the trick, I'd think.

-Mongoose
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damian Sharp)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 02:30:01 2001
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Steve Collins wrote:

<snip other reasons, since they're all good & stuff>

> 3) If they do cut that well and you can come up with some way of
> attaching them to a weight (by the way the weight is necessary to give
> the line enough mass to do anything, without it swinging it would be like
> attempting to use a fly fishing rod and you'd never hit anything forget
> hit it hard enough to cut a piece of paper) then you are still talking
> about a weapon which will slice the fingers off of even a highly trained
> individual, and not just when he's using it as a weapon. All he'd need to
> do is brush his hand by the coiled line to give himself a nasty cut. It
> would be virtually impossible to use it for any length of time without
> injuring yourself severely (in Game mecahnics Terms it would be every
> time you fail to get any successes against your opponent then consider it
> to have hit yourself and resist the damage accordingly), this is not
> something any sane individual would chose to use as a weapon, no matter
> how cool they looked and anyone insane enough to try it wouldn't live
> long enough to matter.

As someone who played a Cyberpunk Character who used one of those wrist
rocket launchers, at point blank (I've got little skill, but with a 3'
radius blast, how can I miss? Especially if I launch 3 missles.), I'll say
there will _always_ be someone crazy enough to try to use any weapon of
destruction, espeially in situations where it shouldn't be used. :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Graduate |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't speak Latin in front of the books"
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Eric Wiser)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 03:25:00 2001
Sebastian Wiers wrote:

> The smaller the filament, the more likely it is to break. How much force
> can even a pure "diamond" fiber that is only .1 MM in diameter support? .1
> MM is prety damn thick, as far as cutting edges go. Like apiece of typing
> paper- yeah, you could get a paper cut, but its no razors edge.If you pull
> harder than the tensile strength, it just snaps, not cuts. And what if the
> weight hits something first- no cutting then!

Buckeytubes created in labs today are about 10-20 nm (nano-meters) in diameter
and have a tinsil strength of about 300 gigapascals (billions of pascals). That
makes it MUCH stronger than the best composit steels out there, and so small
that it takes electron microscopes to see them with any detail. If you're
interested in the sitations for this information, let me know privately and I
will email them to you.

As far as the weight hitting something first, agreed. That is where a certain
amount of skill (and misses from bad rolls) is necessary.

>
> Whips crack because they are tapered. Strings with weights on the endg
> don't "crack", the swing around in perfect circles, assuming they don't hit
> anything. Its not just that the "best" way to use the weapon is swinging
it
> in an arc- its the ONLY way.
>

Oops, did I say that (foolish grin) :) You are perfectly correct about being
the only way to use one well. sorry.

Eric
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 06:00:04 2001
According to Damian Sharp, on Wed, 21 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

> As someone who played a Cyberpunk Character who used one of those wrist
> rocket launchers, at point blank (I've got little skill, but with a 3'
> radius blast, how can I miss? Especially if I launch 3 missles.), I'll say
> there will _always_ be someone crazy enough to try to use any weapon of
> destruction, espeially in situations where it shouldn't be used. :)

The things that makes the difference here, though, is that in CP2020 it's
all just a matter of wearing enough armor. Suit up in MetalGear and you're
rather unlikely to take any damage from those rockets at all...

In SR, though, swinging a monofilament whip is something else, because very
few people want to take 10S damage resisted with one-half impact armor even
once.

Still, your point about some people being crazy enough is certainly valid :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Charles S Remis)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 11:45:00 2001
Steve Collins wrote:
>
> 2) Assuming they were really refering to the mythical properties of near
> monomolecular lines then we have even greater problems. For example if
> they actually do cut all that well then how exactly do you propose to
> attach a weight to the tip?

You could get around this by assuming that the weight was a
blob of "whip material", essentially the whip ends in a
reverse teardrop.

> 4) Finally if somehow you get solutions to the first 3 then for a little
> while after they are invented everyone and their brother will be using
> them as weapons because they are so damned effective.

Except for the danger to the user. A strong troll, or
a strong augmented character, could do better with safer
weapons.

> Less than a year
> later the same monofilament technology (if it doesn't happen before the
> whips are invented anyway) will be used to create Woven Monofilament
> Armor which will bounce any bullets short of a .50 Cal and be completely
> impervious to Monofilament whips as well as being lighter and more
> flexable than any armor currently existing (it would feel like you were
> wearing a heavy sweater) and everyone from the highest level Corp CEO to
> the Lowest level Street Cop would be wearing it for fear that some yahoo
> is going to come after them with a Monowhip.

Not if you assume that the majority of the cost of a monowhip
is the production of the line, ala bucky tubes. Even if the
was only 500Y per whip, just how many strands of thread go
into a suit of clothing, let alone monomolecular, or at least
incredibly thin, thread? You would have to be talking about,
conservatively, over 1188000Y on materials alone...not too
many runners or execs will be buying one for Xmas...

(Begin cheesy math...sheets are graded on threads per square
inch. 100 is pretty good, 150 is beter. Assume the whip is
10' long and that it can wrap around a person 3 times. You
still need 33 threads per inch...for a six foot person 2376
threads...if they were as thick as cotton thread, which they
can't be...you would probably need thousands, if not tens
of thousands of threads per inch of height, which would move
this to the realm of GNPs for materials alone...)

> The monofilament whip is nothing more than a piece of tech that someone
> saw in an anime show, thought was cool and introduced to Shadowrun, it
> doesn't work within the tech level presented by the game world.

So whaddaya want, perfection? The matrix as a video game where
you write complex code while you play isn't exactly realistic,
without even going into magic, dragons, cyberware, or even
better, elves and vampires that have been with us unknown all
along even before the awakening...kind of like the highlander...
You should check your willing suspension of disbelief, it
seems to need some adjustment <grin>.

> If they
> wanted some kind of high tech whip for cool effects then they should have
> had a stun whip, a combination of a Stun Baton and a Whip. This could
> easily have been created (indeed would have been likely to have been
> invented), provided the same level of coolness and been completely inline
> with the tech level described in Shadowrun.

Evil idea. (Game) mechanically, tasers are even more of
an unbalanced weapon...they do the same damage and also go
against half armor, but they have range and are not
dangerous to the wielder to use...

Regards,

Charlie
--
"What emotions did I feel when I got into space? I'll
tell you after an 8 and half minute ride on a big
rocket you feel really relieved to be in outer space!"

--ISS commander William Shepherd to
a Chicago 7th grader via Ham radio
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Pederson)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 12:00:01 2001
"Charles S Remis" <cremis@******.net> wrote:
> (Begin cheesy math...sheets are graded on threads per square
> inch. 100 is pretty good, 150 is beter. Assume the whip is
> 10' long and that it can wrap around a person 3 times. You
> still need 33 threads per inch...for a six foot person 2376
> threads...if they were as thick as cotton thread, which they
> can't be...you would probably need thousands, if not tens
> of thousands of threads per inch of height, which would move
> this to the realm of GNPs for materials alone...)

You could probably cheat by only using a few threads of monoline
per square inch and filling the rest out with something more normal
(kevlar, for instance). Such a trick should have an effect like
ripstop nylon, so it should provide ample protection against
monowhips with a *small* fraction of the cost. Admittedly, it opens
up a whole host of other issues (the whip will still slice through
the other material, which could eventually leave the monothreads
exposed and dangerous), but solves some others (you probably won't
get cut on your sleeve, for instance).

YMMV.

--
John Pederson
pedersje@**.rose-hulman.edu
ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Spike)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 13:05:05 2001
And verily, didst Steve Collins babble thusly...
> Well I'm sure Gibson got the idea either from Larry Niven's Ringworld or
> some other earlier source. He wasn't known for his originality. The only
> problem is that in all of the other books where I have seen Monowhips or
> widescale use of monomolecular lines there was a MUCH higher general
> level of tech, and in some of them (like Ringworld) they were still so
> advanced as to be nearly magical in nature to the people in the books (as
> in they knew what they were but had no clue how to make them).

Ahhhh, but think about it now... Using TODAYS tech we have buckyballs and
small buckytubes...

Give it 20 years and we might have monomolecular lines.

(The sci-fi authors didn't foresee these advances so soon...)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Stuart Purdie)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 06:00:01 2001
Do excuse, missed the first mail.

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Charles S Remis wrote:

> Steve Collins wrote:
> >
> > Less than a year
> > later the same monofilament technology (if it doesn't happen before the
> > whips are invented anyway) will be used to create Woven Monofilament
> > Armor which will bounce any bullets short of a .50 Cal and be completely
> > impervious to Monofilament whips as well as being lighter and more
> > flexable than any armor currently existing (it would feel like you were
> > wearing a heavy sweater) and everyone from the highest level Corp CEO to
> > the Lowest level Street Cop would be wearing it for fear that some yahoo
> > is going to come after them with a Monowhip.

[Reasoning along cost snipped]

Actaully, even if it would be affordable, it wouldn't work. You see, near
monomolecular thread like materials (Gotta love jargon), are inferintly
flexable. If you consider the difference in flexability for 3 mm thick
copper, and a typical copper wire, you'll notice that the wire is much
more flexable.

Make something of woven materials, and, whilst it will still have very
similar tensile strength, the energy absorption properties parctically
vanish. In other words, whilst the .50 bullet may not be able to pierce
the woven cloth, 99.99999% of it's kinetic energy would be transferred to
the target. Better than if they were unarmoured.

That's a bit of an issue. In fact, flexible, bullet proof armour just
plain doesn't work, unless you invoke very stragne effects
(superconducting wires in the cloth, forming loops, to resist a change in
shape), at which point, they lose flexability. Note that the Kevlar vest,
although woven is not flexable (so as you'd notice). It's woven because
that's the only way to make it - cast solid it would be stonger.
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 10:00:01 2001
> That enough of a Rant on Monofilament Whips for ya :-)

No. :)

Bai Shen
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Eric Wiser)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 15:45:00 2001
Stuart Purdie wrote:

> Actaully, even if it would be affordable, it wouldn't work. You see, near
> monomolecular thread like materials (Gotta love jargon), are inferintly
> flexable. If you consider the difference in flexability for 3 mm thick
> copper, and a typical copper wire, you'll notice that the wire is much
> more flexable.
>
> Make something of woven materials, and, whilst it will still have very
> similar tensile strength, the energy absorption properties parctically
> vanish. In other words, whilst the .50 bullet may not be able to pierce
> the woven cloth, 99.99999% of it's kinetic energy would be transferred to
> the target. Better than if they were unarmoured.
>
> That's a bit of an issue. In fact, flexible, bullet proof armour just
> plain doesn't work, unless you invoke very stragne effects
> (superconducting wires in the cloth, forming loops, to resist a change in
> shape), at which point, they lose flexability. Note that the Kevlar vest,
> although woven is not flexable (so as you'd notice). It's woven because
> that's the only way to make it - cast solid it would be stonger.

So harden the armor with ceramic plates or add a layer of gel armor underneath
the weave to spread the impact around your body. Stopping impact damage is easy
enough, it is stopping the bullet that is tough. The thinner the fiber the
tighter the weave.

Eric
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Yacht)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 16:00:01 2001
> > That's a bit of an issue. In fact, flexible, bullet proof armour just
> > plain doesn't work, unless you invoke very stragne effects
> > (superconducting wires in the cloth, forming loops, to resist a change
in
> > shape), at which point, they lose flexability. Note that the Kevlar
vest,
> > although woven is not flexable (so as you'd notice). It's woven because
> > that's the only way to make it - cast solid it would be stonger.
>
> So harden the armor with ceramic plates or add a layer of gel armor
underneath
> the weave to spread the impact around your body. Stopping impact damage
is easy
> enough, it is stopping the bullet that is tough. The thinner the fiber
the
> tighter the weave.

Then you end up with nothing more than a traditional kevlar bullet proof
vest. Congratulations, you've reinvented the wheel using star-trek
technology.

-Meatnog
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Eric Wiser)
Subject: Monofilament Whips was Re: some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 17:15:01 2001
Michael Yacht wrote:

>
> Then you end up with nothing more than a traditional kevlar bullet proof
> vest. Congratulations, you've reinvented the wheel using star-trek
> technology.
>
> -Meatnog

There is a difference. Using armor piercing bullets it is possible to go
through kevlar. Even a standard bullet can be made to go through kevlar by the
addition of a material which will spread the fibers out. If you use a smaller
fiber, you can make the weave tighter. That is what Kevlar II is - they reduced
the size of the thread which allowed a tighter weave. A tighter weave is more
resistant to spreading and so more resistant to this kind of armor piercing
bullet. Using this tech you have just taken that same idea to another level; no
reinvention here, just improvement.

Eric

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