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Message no. 1
From: MINION <goehrigd@****.CANISIUS.EDU>
Subject: More Munchkin killing
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:49:05 -0500
One thing that people who want to kill off power gamer/ munchkins
is paranormal aminals..(animals) and other nasties like vampires
and other essence drainers. Hit the munchkin with the almighty
furry of the UNDEAD and see how long his crome keeps him alive.

Most cyber-munchkins have essences so low they make toasters look
organic.. Drain if off a bit.. plop.. dead munchkin

And for mage munchkins.. a paranormal virus.. instant target lock.

_____________________________________________________
| "Deaf And Blind And Dumb And Born To Follow, |
| What You Need Is Someone Strong to Guide You." |
|_____________________________________________________|
|Goehrigd@********.bitnet | Goehrigd@****.canisius.edu|
|_____________________________________________________|
Message no. 2
From: Sean Sheridan <sean@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:02:08 -0600
When reality returns, isn't that a little unfair. I once had a GM hit my friend with
an Ares Squirt loaded with LOTS of Kamikaze. He didn't die, just lost all connections
with his cyberware...
So down went a really powerful PC, who had spent over 2 million Nuyen on ware
over a bunch of adventures.. I thought it was really unfair. Its okay to hit a player
where they're weak, but to single out there weakness specificly... Its a little weak in
my book. As GMs we have a responsability to be fair and kind and let everyone have fun.
If that means that you toss in a guy with a sword in every adventure to keep the
Physical Adept playing and having fun, so be it. But I've always found that a vampire
standing in a pool of blood with a bow with dikoted arrows can hit and wound
just about anything. And thats not hitting a character where he's weak, it just standing
a tough bad guy up with a fair chance of causing a little damage.
Sean
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:49:37 +0930
Once upon a time, Sean Sheridan wrote:
>
> When reality returns, isn't that a little unfair. I once had a GM hit my friend with
> an Ares Squirt loaded with LOTS of Kamikaze. He didn't die, just lost all
connections
> with his cyberware...
> So down went a really powerful PC, who had spent over 2 million Nuyen on ware
> over a bunch of adventures.. I thought it was really unfair. Its okay to hit a
player
> where they're weak, but to single out there weakness specificly... Its a little weak
in

It depends on the situation.

Scenario One: A wandering ganger splashes you with kami. Unfair.

Scenario Two: Sam with 2x10^6 nuyen worth of cyber pisses off a major corp.
This corp orders a retaliation (on the sam. Note that a corp probably
wouldn't do this is the sam was acting under the orders of another corp.).
The hit team checks out his file, reads his extensive list of mods, and
decides that a dose of kamikaze like that is probably the best way to take
him out. Fair.

> my book. As GMs we have a responsability to be fair and kind and let everyone have
fun.
> If that means that you toss in a guy with a sword in every adventure to keep the
> Physical Adept playing and having fun, so be it. But I've always found that a
vampire
> standing in a pool of blood with a bow with dikoted arrows can hit and wound
> just about anything. And thats not hitting a character where he's weak, it just
standing
> a tough bad guy up with a fair chance of causing a little damage.

Do you have any idea how hard dikote should be to get hold of? Go back and
read the descs and tell me if it's something that every second person on
the street could get hold of. They have to cook the damn stuff in a bloody
furnace, for goodness sake.

(Oh, yeah, Dikoted(tm) arrow heads are another sign of munchkinism, usually
on the part of the GM. (Yeah, GM's can be munchkins too))

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 4
From: Sean Sheridan <sean@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 00:57:06 -0600
About those dikoted arrows... I like to read the shadowtalk in my sourcebooks,
And dikote comes up really often. If it was something that was SUPER rare
why is it in the rules? I'd imagine that a dikoted arrow is damn hard
to break, so this guy wouldn't realy need that many. Sure he might spread a few blood
diseases, but he's a vampire.
And if I was a real munchkin, it'd be two vampires with Miniguns, not arrows.
Sorry if you disagree...
Sean
Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 16:43:25 +0930
Once upon a time, Sean Sheridan wrote:
> And if I was a real munchkin, it'd be two vampires with Miniguns, not arrows.
> Sorry if you disagree...

I was really grumbling about how FASA has pushed dikote in the sourcebooks.
I dunno, but I can't really see it as been all that common, simply because
the infrastructure required is fairly large.

OTH, while I can't see people going out and dikoting their arrowheads, I
can see corporations selling dikoted arrows. It's just that there's the
intermediatry.

(FWIW, considering the high temperature at which Dikoting is done, you
don't want to dikote cheap blades. The heat will distemper them and make
them useless (cracks will appear, etc))


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 6
From: Luc <rjwate01@********.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 09:23:50 EST
>
> One thing that people who want to kill off power gamer/ munchkins
> is paranormal aminals..(animals) and other nasties like vampires
> and other essence drainers. Hit the munchkin with the almighty
> furry of the UNDEAD and see how long his crome keeps him alive.
>
> Most cyber-munchkins have essences so low they make toasters look
> organic.. Drain if off a bit.. plop.. dead munchkin
>
actually the vampire would probably go after the mage(s) because they actually
have an essence rating. Going after the low essence characters instead of high
essence would be like skipping the steak for some rice cakes (and as much as I
like rice cakes, I love steak).

Luc
Message no. 7
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 01:05:08 +0930
Once upon a time, Luc wrote:
>
> actually the vampire would probably go after the mage(s) because they actually
> have an essence rating. Going after the low essence characters instead of high
> essence would be like skipping the steak for some rice cakes (and as much as I
> like rice cakes, I love steak).
>

Yeah, sure, but the sams are SO easy to kill. Look at it that way. Kill the
sams (hurry through dinner), savour the mages (linger over dessert).
Whereas if you took the time to enjoy the mage, the sams would either
vanish, or try to break your neck.


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 8
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 16:13:04 -0700
>About those dikoted arrows... I like to read the shadowtalk in my sourcebooks,
>And dikote comes up really often. If it was something that was SUPER rare
>why is it in the rules? I'd imagine that a dikoted arrow is damn hard
>to break, so this guy wouldn't realy need that many. Sure he might spread a few
> blood diseases, but he's a vampire.

Actually, dikoted ARROWS are a bad idea, arrows need to flex and bend so that
they shoot straighter, if you dikote the arrow, then you would keep it from it
purpose.

NOw, you could coat the arrow head, and it would help penetration, but not
IMHO to the level of increasing the Damage CODE by a level. I can see the power
going up by one or two though.

Nightfox
Message no. 9
From: Luc <rjwate01@********.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 10:24:57 EST
> Actually, dikoted ARROWS are a bad idea, arrows need to flex and bend so that
> they shoot straighter, if you dikote the arrow, then you would keep it from it
> purpose.
>
> NOw, you could coat the arrow head, and it would help penetration, but not
> IMHO to the level of increasing the Damage CODE by a level. I can see the power
> going up by one or two though.
>
actually I think the arrow head only was meant by all mentioning it, and I
agree with the optional rules that you stated because effectively it becomes
an armor piercing arrow and shouldn't cause more damage just be harder to stop.

Luc
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 01:04:50 +0930
Luc wrote:
>
> actually I think the arrow head only was meant by all mentioning it, and I
> agree with the optional rules that you stated because effectively it becomes
> an armor piercing arrow and shouldn't cause more damage just be harder to stop.

Even so... most arrowheads are made out of cast iron or steel. Subjecting
metals to high temperatures (and Dikoting requires exposure to a super hot
plasma) would wreck most arrowheads, creating cracks in the metal which
would cause the arrowhead to shatter when it hit something.
What this means is that you need to have your arrowheads made out strong
ceramics or special alloys. In other words, they become more expensive. The
same would hold true for swords. Katanas, especially, would probably be
ruined. And it should still be hard to impossible for runners to get access
to a Dikoting facility, so they can't just Dikote their arrows. However,
corps probably sell Dikoted arrowheads, and blades, for an incredible
ripoff price.

(For the record... anyone know the vaporisation point of diamond?)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 11
From: Luc <rjwate01@********.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 11:09:41 EST
> Even so... most arrowheads are made out of cast iron or steel. Subjecting
> metals to high temperatures (and Dikoting requires exposure to a super hot
> plasma) would wreck most arrowheads, creating cracks in the metal which
> would cause the arrowhead to shatter when it hit something.
> What this means is that you need to have your arrowheads made out strong
> ceramics or special alloys. In other words, they become more expensive. The
> same would hold true for swords. Katanas, especially, would probably be
> ruined. And it should still be hard to impossible for runners to get access
> to a Dikoting facility, so they can't just Dikote their arrows. However,
> corps probably sell Dikoted arrowheads, and blades, for an incredible
> ripoff price.
>
> (For the record... anyone know the vaporisation point of diamond?)
>
Yes, but Dikoting (along with just about all of Fields of Fire) are things I'm
trying to convince our new SRII GM not to allow characters to get in creation
and lot of hard work after game start.

Luc
Message no. 12
From: Sean Sheridan <sean@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 02:55:04 -0600
Maybe the damage could be explained by the fact that a dikoted arrow
could be fired at places like the skull or chest and have a rather good
chance of penetrating. I think that it's important to remember that
damage isn't solely a function of cutting/ripping/smashing/going potential
of a weapon, but also on location, the type of wound inflicted, and general
nastiness. I don't really aprove of case by case analysis of effects like
these cuz they can go the other way too. If I dikote my knife and the damage
goes up one, why doesn't it do more for my 7 foot Troll Katana/Chainsaw?
Or my Fineblade? Or my%#$@!**. I like to stick to the rules as much as
possible just for fairness sake. I hate having to ask my GM how he would
rule on a certain action before I do it because I've usually spent a little
time setting it up before it becomes clear what's going on, and I dont want
to waste time in the game(How long does it take to cut though the hull with my
Spur or sharpness?). But then again, everyone plays it their own way and may
want to stick to a more "realistic" sense of the world thean others.
Sean
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 09:56:15 +0100
>(For the record... anyone know the vaporisation point of diamond?)

The melting point is given as >3800 Kelvin in a handy little book I happened
to have at hand. No vaporisation temperature, but the melting point of steel
in the same book is 1630 K for carbonsteel and 1780 K for stainless steel...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 14
From: Sean Sheridan <sean@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 03:05:29 -0600
if the diamonds were vapoized, ionized, and then projected at the surface
of an object, the actual temperature the object wouldn't neccesarily be
raized that high. You not dipping the sword into a vat of molten diamonds,
your subjecting it to a stream of gaseous particles. Fusion reactors
contain plasmas a temperature much higher than anything dikoting can
be at, but they don't explode because it's only a bit of gas hits the walls
at any one time, so the total energy they contain is actuall quite low
comparitevly to say, a bullet or a flamethrower. If the technique was
that ineffective they wouldn't have put it in the Shadowtech book.
I have to say though, that I think I could get my hands on the equipment
to do this kind of stuff in my optics lab, or from the High Energy group
here at the University. The availability rating is so high not because
of the lack of "furnaces", but from the lack of people who know how and
the lack of a market. And the description says nothing about diamonds,
simply gasses that cool and form a diamond like lattice structure over
the object they cover.
I guess I should have included the old message in this one but I dont like
to waste space. It went something to the effect that dikote would effect
many substances(like metal) in a negative way because of the high temperature.
And that the process was only in the hands of super powered corp like
people who rip us all off in the store...
Sean
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 10:10:41 +0100
>If I dikote my knife and the damage
>goes up one, why doesn't it do more for my 7 foot Troll Katana/Chainsaw?
>Or my Fineblade? Or my%#$@!**.

It does: the troll's Strength is higher than the human's, so damage from a
knife is greater :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oooh! Smells like a job for ... TOILETMAN!!
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Message no. 16
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 20:24:17 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> >(For the record... anyone know the vaporisation point of diamond?)
>
> The melting point is given as >3800 Kelvin in a handy little book I happened
> to have at hand. No vaporisation temperature, but the melting point of steel
> in the same book is 1630 K for carbonsteel and 1780 K for stainless steel...
>

'Kay, then picture this: Dikoting involves (essentially) putting the object
into a cloud of _gaseous_ diamond, and letting it condense around the
object. Sooo... the object has to be able to take being exposed to a
temperature above 3,500 C for the condensation (the gas is more likely to
be around 6,000, unless they pull some fancy partial vacuums to lower the
vaporisation point). Now, granted that the amount of diamond is not much,
that's still a lot of heat energy going into the object. Thanks to Gurth's
figures, there's a decent chance that the edge on a blade, for example,
would probably melt, turning it into an expensive club. Now, obviously you
can get around this. But these measures are going to be expensive (say,
more heat-resilient alloys, maybe a ceramic coating to the blade, or
applying the coating in VERY thin layers).

Also look at the economics: You can probably get 10-20 arrowheads out of
100cm^2 of Dikote, depending on how much wastage you get. That's 500-1000
nuyen extra PER arrowhead! Not to mention that you'd probably only get a
few uses out of it before the diamond cracks, assuming you can retrieve it.
A lot to pay, you know.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 17
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 20:31:38 +0930
Sean Sheridan wrote:
>
> if the diamonds were vapoized, ionized, and then projected at the surface
> of an object, the actual temperature the object wouldn't neccesarily be
> raized that high. You not dipping the sword into a vat of molten diamonds,
> your subjecting it to a stream of gaseous particles. Fusion reactors
> contain plasmas a temperature much higher than anything dikoting can
> be at, but they don't explode because it's only a bit of gas hits the walls
> at any one time, so the total energy they contain is actuall quite low
> comparitevly to say, a bullet or a flamethrower.

I'd just like to point out that reactors have coolant running all the way
through them. When the coolant fails, they do explode (or meltdown,
rather).

> If the technique was
> that ineffective they wouldn't have put it in the Shadowtech book.

Wanna bet? Odds are they put it in 'cause it sounded cool.

> I have to say though, that I think I could get my hands on the equipment
> to do this kind of stuff in my optics lab, or from the High Energy group
> here at the University. The availability rating is so high not because
> of the lack of "furnaces", but from the lack of people who know how and
> the lack of a market. And the description says nothing about diamonds,
> simply gasses that cool and form a diamond like lattice structure over
> the object they cover.

"Dikote is a process that deposits a thin diamond film on any solid
surface."

And where are runners going to get access to the equipment in a High Energy
physics lab?

> I guess I should have included the old message in this one but I dont like
> to waste space. It went something to the effect that dikote would effect
> many substances(like metal) in a negative way because of the high temperature.
> And that the process was only in the hands of super powered corp like
> people who rip us all off in the store...

It's not the high temperature, really, it's the way the heat is
transferred. A sword won't melt because it's been dikoted. But the edges
might. Arrowheads, with a much getter surface-area-to-volume ratio will be
even more seriously effected.

All I'm really saying here is that you can't chuck in your standard
carbonsteel sword, or cast-iron arrowheads into a Dikote furnace (for want
of a better term), and expect it to work okay.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 18
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 03:38:25 -0800
On Sun, 26 Feb 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> 'Kay, then picture this: Dikoting involves (essentially) putting the object
> into a cloud of _gaseous_ diamond, and letting it condense around the
> object. Sooo... the object has to be able to take being exposed to a

Nope ... this is not how "dikoting" is done. Today's process for
putting a diamond sheathe on something (yes, we can dikote today!) simply
involves painting/layering a special laquer on the intended object. Then
place in a focused microwave oven and the laquer preferentially absorbs
microwaves (since carbon has a resonant frequency in the microwave
regime) and presto! Diamond coating.
Please remember the difference between heat and temperature; heat
is thermal energy, while temperature is the average thermal energy. (More
specifically, heat is a tensor of at least first rank [i.e., a vector]
while temperature is a scalar quantity). Something can be exposed to a
very high temperature (such as Voyager and the 750 million Kelvin Jovian
ring plasma) as long as the amount of heat is small (which it was in the
Jovian plasma, due to low density).
So the arguments about expensive clubs, et. al. are fairly moot.

> few uses out of it before the diamond cracks, assuming you can retrieve it.

Diamond is one of those materials that holds up until it fails.
By this I mean that the energies involved in the Carbon-carbon bondings
are such that stress propagation through the material matrix is rapid;
i.e. explosive failure. Of course, diamond is still spectacularly hard,
so at best it might "wear" away.

> Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/Adam/getchell.html
Message no. 19
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 23:58:06 +0930
Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> Nope ... this is not how "dikoting" is done. Today's process for
> putting a diamond sheathe on something (yes, we can dikote today!) simply
> involves painting/layering a special laquer on the intended object. Then
> place in a focused microwave oven and the laquer preferentially absorbs
> microwaves (since carbon has a resonant frequency in the microwave
> regime) and presto! Diamond coating.

Oh... didn't know that. (Colour me foolish...) Of course, that's not what
Shadowtech describes. They just talk about exposing the object to a diamond
plasma.

> Please remember the difference between heat and temperature; heat
> is thermal energy, while temperature is the average thermal energy. (More
> specifically, heat is a tensor of at least first rank [i.e., a vector]
> while temperature is a scalar quantity). Something can be exposed to a
> very high temperature (such as Voyager and the 750 million Kelvin Jovian
> ring plasma) as long as the amount of heat is small (which it was in the
> Jovian plasma, due to low density).

Of course, but assuming that the diamond mass is not insignificant compared
to the coated mass (as it wouldn't be for the arrowhead example), the
amount of energy being transferred into to the object is still quite
large.


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 11:33:44 +0100
>(the gas is more likely to
>be around 6,000, unless they pull some fancy partial vacuums to lower the
>vaporisation point).

I don't see why they shouldn't go for partial vacuums in such cases. Those
things can have dramatic impacts on boiling points: last year, I studied
chemical engineering (not anymore, though :), and we had to do a vacuum
destiliation of some or another alcohol. The whole stuff boiled at about 50
degrees C instead of 80+ or whatever it normally was... Granted, diamond is
not an alcohol :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oooh! Smells like a job for ... TOILETMAN!!
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 21
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 20:23:26 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> I don't see why they shouldn't go for partial vacuums in such cases. Those
> things can have dramatic impacts on boiling points: last year, I studied
> chemical engineering (not anymore, though :), and we had to do a vacuum
> destiliation of some or another alcohol. The whole stuff boiled at about 50
> degrees C instead of 80+ or whatever it normally was... Granted, diamond is
> not an alcohol :)
>

Lower air pressures work like that for all liquids, but it might affect the
condensation. After all, you want it to turn out as diamond, not graphite,
so you have to snap-freeze it, kind of, to get a crystalline affect.

Of course, thanks to Adam Getchell, I've been made to look like a fool
already :) on this topic, so I'll just sheet mah mouth (does dumb hayseed
impression)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 22
From: Luc <rjwate01@********.SPD.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Munchkin killing
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:03:31 EST
> these cuz they can go the other way too. If I dikote my knife and the damage
> goes up one, why doesn't it do more for my 7 foot Troll Katana/Chainsaw?
> Or my Fineblade? Or my%#$@!**. I like to stick to the rules as much as
> possible just for fairness sake. I hate having to ask my GM how he would

I was feel that less damage should be used because in our group we had a troll
bio and cybered out with strength around 17 or 18 and dikoted arrows and a
decent projectile skill who was talking about using them to kill Banshee
drivers by targeting them. Of course the real problem with him is that he has
read all the rules (and included his own interpretation) and was the accepted
athority till others began reading the rules (including the GM). So as far as
the damage goes it was a personnel opinion because I prefer realism that
doesn't require complicated rules (otherwise I'd play CyberSpace..blah!)

Luc

Further Reading

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