Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:48:27 +0100

Message no. 1 Hail Runners,

I was wondering if anything had changed when it came to the ludicrous
Move-by-wire system?

I still can see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
installed.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:55:49 +0100

Message no. 2 > I still can see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
> installed.

That should be "can't"!

And that, kids, is why you should always check your email before hitting the
send button.

/me checks his email

/me hits send

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:52:48 +0100

Message no. 3 And finally, Dennis Steinmeijer expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> I still can see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
> installed.

Well, it's better than a wired reflexes system of the same
level, as it also boosts quickness, and -main reason for me- adds
1 die per level to athletics and stealth rolls. This comes at a
far higher cost, I know, but IMO it's worth it.

arclight

From:	Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:59:42 +0100

Message no. 4 > Well, it's better than a wired reflexes system of the same
> level, as it also boosts quickness, and -main reason for me- adds
> 1 die per level to athletics and stealth rolls. This comes at a
> far higher cost, I know, but IMO it's worth it.

However, once every 3 months or so (not sure, don't have Cybertechnology
handy) there is the chance that your nervous system breaks down due to the
stress the system causes. There were all kinds of drawbacks that IMO don't
weigh up to the benefits.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Bruce iti03678@****.co.za
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:13:12 +0200

Message no. 5 -----Original Message-----
From: Arclight <arclight@*********.de>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 30 November 1999 02:54
Subject: RE: Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M

>
> And finally, Dennis Steinmeijer expressed himself by writing:
>
><snip>
>
>> I still can see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
>> installed.
>
> Well, it's better than a wired reflexes system of the same
>level, as it also boosts quickness, and -main reason for me- adds
>1 die per level to athletics and stealth rolls. This comes at a
>far higher cost, I know, but IMO it's worth it.

An early death is worth that little extra edge? Do you like playing
suicidal homicidals?

- -
Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>

Give me reasons why the sun has to shine
why they murdered the noisy mime
tell me the answers to the puzzles of Poe
and sing me to sleep on the rivers of woe

From:	Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:32:52 -0600

Message no. 6 > > I still can see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
> > installed.
>
> Well, it's better than a wired reflexes system of the same
> level, as it also boosts quickness, and -main reason for me- adds
> 1 die per level to athletics and stealth rolls. This comes at a
> far higher cost, I know, but IMO it's worth it.

It's worth it to you to have automatic stress, ridiculously high chances for
epilepsy, and possibly worse, within the space of a few months, after
spending (as a minimum) hundreds of thousands of nuyen? You do different
kinds of cost/benefit analysis than I do, I believe.

From:	abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:54:11 -0500

Message no. 7 > > > I still can see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
> > > installed.
> >
> > Well, it's better than a wired reflexes system of the same
> > level, as it also boosts quickness, and -main reason for me- adds
> > 1 die per level to athletics and stealth rolls. This comes at a
> > far higher cost, I know, but IMO it's worth it.
>
> It's worth it to you to have automatic stress, ridiculously high chances
for
> epilepsy, and possibly worse, within the space of a few months, after
> spending (as a minimum) hundreds of thousands of nuyen? You do different
> kinds of cost/benefit analysis than I do, I believe.

Right. Those things, opposite the fact that you're much more likely to die
if you *don't* have it, given the nature of your job. Let's think about it,
gents; this is not a job for people who want to live.

___________________________________
I told you this morality of mine would kill us all.

From:	Strago strago@***.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:01:51 -0500

Message no. 8 abortion_engine wrote:

> <SNIP>
> > It's worth it to you to have automatic stress, ridiculously high chances
> for
> > epilepsy, and possibly worse, within the space of a few months, after
> > spending (as a minimum) hundreds of thousands of nuyen? You do different
> > kinds of cost/benefit analysis than I do, I believe.
>
> Right. Those things, opposite the fact that you're much more likely to die
> if you *don't* have it, given the nature of your job. Let's think about it,
> gents; this is not a job for people who want to live.
>

AHHH but that's RolEplaying, a long forgotten and long-lost art which games are
named for but which doesn't exist in the world anymore. Instead you have the
"it took me three hours to make this character, nothing bad's ever going to
happen to him/her if I have anything to say about it and I'll kick and scream
and whine if something does" attitude that I've seen as more prevalent today.

>
> ___________________________________
> I told you this morality of mine would kill us all.

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance.
In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The
cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++
d+) gm+ M P

From:	Martin Steffens (Berlitz) v-marts@*********.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:50:05 -0800

Message no. 9 From: Strago [mailto:strago@***.com]

> > abortion_engine wrote:

> > Right. Those things, opposite the fact that you're much more likely
> > to die if you *don't* have it, given the nature of your job. Let's
> > think about it, gents; this is not a job for people who want to live.

> AHHH but that's RolEplaying, a long forgotten and long-lost art which
> games are named for but which doesn't exist in the world anymore. Instead
> you have the "it took me three hours to make this character, nothing bad's

> ever going to happen to him/her if I have anything to say about it and
I'll
> kick and scream and whine if something does" attitude that I've seen as
> more prevalent today.

While I normally would agree with you since most of my players were like
that,
I don't think that in this case it's fair to use this with MBW. The
penalties
are rather stiff and it is fair to say that most people will not survive
more than a year with this in them. Smart runners would not go for these
things, since smart runners run for a reason. The run is a means to a goal,
not a reason in itself.

MBW would only be an option for the terminally insane (quite literal), very
short-sighted people with a lot of money or the terminally optimistic
(they'll find a fix before my time is up). For everyone else it's like
taking
Kamikaze; dead-end road. And I doubt that many GMs accuse their players of
min-maxing because they don't take the enhancing drugs.
Same thing, cheaper package.

Martin Steffens
e-mail: v-marts@*********.com
phone: 70 666 44

From:	Matthew J. Chung mchung@*****.ca
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:04:56 -0500

Message no. 10 -----Original Message-----
From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz) <v-marts@*********.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M

>From: Strago [mailto:strago@***.com]
[snip]
>
>MBW would only be an option for the terminally insane (quite literal), very
>short-sighted people with a lot of money or the terminally optimistic
>(they'll find a fix before my time is up). For everyone else it's like
>taking
>Kamikaze; dead-end road. And I doubt that many GMs accuse their players of
>min-maxing because they don't take the enhancing drugs.
>Same thing, cheaper package.

Move-by-Wire is also an option for those players who accidentally end up
on some corps operating table, and the GM is curious to see just how gross
Move-by-wire 4 *really* is. When implanted in a mage. Luckily he maxed out
on the operation roll and left my character with magic, not much but them's
the breaks. Oh and for the curious, Move-by-Wire 4 in a SR2 Shamanic
Sorceror adept is very disgusting, after a session or two, he retrofixed
history to give me a Move-by-Wire 2 instead.

Matthew J. Chung

From:	Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:50:29 -0500

Message no. 11 > From: Matthew J. Chung [mailto:mchung@*****.ca]
> Sent: November 30, 1999 12:05
>
> Move-by-Wire is also an option for those players who
> accidentally end up
> on some corps operating table, and the GM is curious to see

Now now - you *volunteered* to lie on that table. More or less.
From their point of view, anyhow. :-)

Besides, Luke was already walking the path of the burnout...

> just how gross
> Move-by-wire 4 *really* is. When implanted in a mage. Luckily
> he maxed out
> on the operation roll and left my character with magic, not
> much but them's

Heh - enough to fry a few bugs. Plenty by my count, especially
since *I* was the one they were trying to bury...

> the breaks. Oh and for the curious, Move-by-Wire 4 in a SR2 Shamanic
> Sorceror adept is very disgusting, after a session or two, he
> retrofixed
> history to give me a Move-by-Wire 2 instead.

Well, it wouldn't have been nearly so disgusting had your
magic burnt out. Besides, didn't you like taking point all the
time? :-)

MBW4 is disgusting in anybody, really - the mage bit makes a good
difference but there's a reason it's too expensive for PCs to buy
at chargen. It's even worse in SR3 (what, I *must* take a second
action before the end of the first pass? Well, I suppose I could...).

James Ojaste

From:	James Day Moody jdm7@**********.ac.uk
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:51:47 +0000 (GMT)

Message no. 12 On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Dennis Steinmeijer sic scripsit,

>
> I still can see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
> installed.

<s> Live fast, die young, leave a completely devastated corpse. Let's face
it, if you can get hold of the stuff, it's absolute dynamite. So you have
an increased chance of dying? Hey the streets are a dangerous enough place
anyway. Performance boost accross so many catagories it just isn't funny:
And that's assuming you get a r1-2. Somehow manage to gt hold of higher,
and you're hell on wheels. Sure, I'd agree it's not something for
everyone, or even every campagin, but there is the argument that with all
the speed boosts, and athletics/stealth mods, it's going to get you out of
trouble far more than you ever remain in it.

And then there is the fact that some people are born gamblers <s>.

James

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:02:07 +0100

Message no. 13 According to Dennis Steinmeijer, at 12:48 on 30 Nov 99, the word on the
street was...

> I was wondering if anything had changed when it came to the ludicrous
> Move-by-wire system?

Not really, except you can't combine it with a synaptic accelerator
anymore, and it's clearly stated that the Quickness bonus doesn't also
increase your Reaction. Oh yeah, the Essence costs and nuyen prices of
levels 3 and 4 have been changed -- up and down, respectively.

As for the other game effects, you have to check for TLE-x at the same
interval, though the test TN is changed (it now depends on the MBW level
instead of being the same for all levels). You also use Willpower for the
test instead of the average of Body and Willpower. Much the same goes for
the CCSS check, but it is now brought on by failure in the MBW itself,
rather than by a periodic check. That may actually make it a bit less
likely to occur, though its effects seem to have been increased a bit.

Whether any of this makes it better or worse, I guess is up to you to
decide, though :)

One question I have about MBW, though, is the extra action for levels 3
and 4. Taking level 3 as an example, it says you get an extra action at
the end of the first initiative pass of the turn. So does that mean you
get an action in phase 0? And do you subtract another 10 from your
initiative (a total of -20 at the end of the first pass), or do you keep
your normal rolled initiative (i.e. only -10 after the first pass)?

This may already have been covered in the M&M thread, but I might have
skipped over it (if so, somebody please give me the answer :)

> I still can see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
> installed.

Those who expect to live for a short while might choose it, as well as
runners who don't think about tomorrow. If you have any long-term plans,
better stay clear :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:26:18 -0500

Message no. 14 > From: Gurth [mailto:gurth@******.nl]
> Sent: November 30, 1999 14:02
>
> > I was wondering if anything had changed when it came to the
> ludicrous
> > Move-by-wire system?
>
> Not really, except you can't combine it with a synaptic accelerator
[snip]
> One question I have about MBW, though, is the extra action
> for levels 3
> and 4. Taking level 3 as an example, it says you get an extra
> action at
> the end of the first initiative pass of the turn. So does
> that mean you
> get an action in phase 0? And do you subtract another 10 from your

Hmm. It says "at the end", so I'd say phase -1, just to be safe.
As long as it's after everybody without MBW...

> initiative (a total of -20 at the end of the first pass), or
> do you keep
> your normal rolled initiative (i.e. only -10 after the first pass)?

Page 30, Paragraph 1:
"The character must take these extra actions...and must recalculate
his next Initiative Pass normally after doing so (subtract 10 from
Initiative)."

I take that to mean that as soon as you take an action, you subtract
10 from your Initiative, so you'd be at a total of -20 at the end
of the first pass.

> > I still can see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
> > installed.
>
> Those who expect to live for a short while might choose it,
> as well as
> runners who don't think about tomorrow. If you have any
> long-term plans,
> better stay clear :)

Or those for whom it was installed without informing them of the
drawbacks, or without their permissions, or free, or think they're
invincible ("it'll never happen to me!"), or... :-)

James Ojaste

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:05:10 -0600

Message no. 15 :I was wondering if anything had changed when it came to the ludicrous
:Move-by-wire system?

Yes. Does that mean its not ludicrous any more? You decide.

:I still can't see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
:installed.

Take an extra action at the end of the first (and maybe second) pass?
Why, don't mind if I do! <Insert drool here>
The stress looks like, by the rules, it should be mostly tolerable, if
you have decent medical care (take some contacts, buy a nice contract with
doc wagon, learn some social skills for dealing with doctors). If you
don't- well, what the heck were you thinking, seizure boy? Its not really
starting character gear, due to the availability, anyhow. Those willpower
tests might eventually get you, especially with the higher level systems-
but
then, nobody ever decided to get that implant because they cared about their
long term health. Even at low levels, the skill and quickness bonus might
be worth it, if the "style factor" is not.

As somebody pointed out, its likely a role playing choice, as much as
anything else. Same for wired 3, IMO- it may NOT be the best system you can
get for the money, but it has (or had) its niche, and that can strongly
contribute to character background. If you have wired 3, chances are you
are "old school", a "samurai's samurai", the type who had access to
the
tech years ago, and only trusts the "tried and true". Wires also offer more
accessories (reflex triggers and stepped reflex triggers) than other
systems, and that probably means they are a "mature" technology- the GM
might give you a break on SOTA problems, make finding somebody to do upkeep
on the easier, and such.

Wired 3 is like driving a Corvette- there are faster, cheaper sports
cars, but
the Corvette still has its fans. MBW 3 or 4 is like driving a Ferrari-
again, there may be cheaper, faster cars, but you will turn heads, have fun
(if you don't go deaf), and spend a LOT of money on mechanics bills,
insurance, and other sundry expenses. People still do it, just not a lot of
people- and maybe that's WHY the people who do it, make that choice.

Mongoose

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:09:48 -0600

Message no. 16 Gurth says, talking as Gurth, through Gurth's e-mail account>>>
One question I have about MBW, though, is the extra action for levels 3
and 4. Taking level 3 as an example, it says you get an extra action at
the end of the first initiative pass of the turn. So does that mean you
get an action in phase 0? And do you subtract another 10 from your
initiative (a total of -20 at the end of the first pass), or do you keep
your normal rolled initiative (i.e. only -10 after the first pass)?
Whether any of this makes it better or worse, I guess is up to you to
decide, though :)
<<<< the above was written by Gurth

What follows is Mongoose adressing Gurth's question>>>>
The extra action happens at the END of the pass. Looking at page 104 of
SR3, that implies that it happens AFTER part D of section 3, where it
details the order of actions within a turn or pass. Therefore, 10 has
already been subtracted from the MBW users initiative, at the time which he
takes that extra action. The MBW rules say you must then, after taking that
action, re-calculate the MBW users intiaitve, by subtracting 10. So,
apperantly by the start of the second pass, a MBW 3 or 4 user will have
taken 2 actions and lost 20 from inititiative.
The result is that, no matter how bad you roll, if you use MBW 3 or 4 your
second action will happen before anybody elses (unless they also use MBW 3
or 4, and roll better than you). In the case of MBW 4, your fourth action
will also happen before anybody else gets a third action. But you don't
get, in total, more actions than you inititiative would otherwise allow.
<<<<The above was an answer to a question asked by Gurth, and was written by
Mongoose, in answer to that question

Mongoose

From:	Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:18:06 -0500

Message no. 17 Strago wrote:
> AHHH but that's RolEplaying, a long forgotten and long-lost art
> which games are
> named for but which doesn't exist in the world anymore. Instead
> you have the
> "it took me three hours to make this character, nothing bad's
> ever going to
> happen to him/her if I have anything to say about it and I'll
> kick and scream
> and whine if something does" attitude that I've seen as more
> prevalent today.

You make my point. Most people who can't get enough of the M-B-W system
aren't role-playing and are completely ignoring the associated degenerative
diseases. I had a guy show up at my table and give my a really blank stare
when I asked him about it. I think K hit the nail on the head earlier when
he said read everything not just a single line. Most folks miss that section
about TLEx or CCSS (sometimes on purpose).

;)

Smilin' Jack

From:	Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:17:59 -0500

Message no. 18 Arclight wrote:
>
> Well, it's better than a wired reflexes system of the same
> level, as it also boosts quickness, and -main reason for me- adds
> 1 die per level to athletics and stealth rolls. This comes at a
> far higher cost, I know, but IMO it's worth it.
>
> arclight

Yeah, but do you roll for the TLEx and CCSS diseases on a regular basis?
(most people who "just love" the move-by-wire system flaws tend to overlook
the rules).

Just curious, because it seems like a sooner or later it's going to happen
and I know that I would never want to undergo those diseases. Of course if
your playing an on the edge cyberjock cruising the line between human/cyborg
then more power to you.

;)

Smilin' Jack

From:	abortion_engine@*****.com abortion_engine@*****.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:42:18 -0500

Message no. 19 > Strago wrote:
> > AHHH but that's RolEplaying, a long forgotten
and long-lost art
> > which games are
> > named for but which doesn't exist in the world
anymore. Instead
> > you have the
> > "it took me three hours to make this
character, nothing bad's
> > ever going to
> > happen to him/her if I have anything to say
about it and I'll
> > kick and scream
> > and whine if something does" attitude that
I've seen as more
> > prevalent today.
>
From: "Mike & Linda Frankl" <mlfrankl@***.com>
> You make my point. Most people who can't get
enough of the M-B-W system
> aren't role-playing and are completely ignoring
the associated degenerative
> diseases. I had a guy show up at my table and
give my a really blank stare
> when I asked him about it. I think K hit the
nail on the head earlier when
> he said read everything not just a single line.
Most folks miss that section
> about TLEx or CCSS (sometimes on purpose).

Most, maybe, but not all. Haven't you ever played
the character who thinks only about now? Who cares
only about effectiveness, about living through the
next year, not the next decade? The kind of guy
who, in the real world, takes methamphetamines
before a B&E so he won't run down?

These are the kinds of guys who get the MBW. The
fatalists, and the people who don't really think
of the consequences of their actions. Hedonists
and apathists.

Yeah, most people probably aren't doing it for
ROLLplaying reasons, but for the numerical
superiority issue. I wouldn't know; I don't let
that sort of person play with me anymore.

From:	Twist0059@*.com Twist0059@*.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:11:12 EST

Message no. 20 In a message dated 11/30/99 8:13:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
iti03678@****.co.za writes:

> >> I still can see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
> >> installed.
> >
> > Well, it's better than a wired reflexes system of the same
> >level, as it also boosts quickness, and -main reason for me- adds
> >1 die per level to athletics and stealth rolls. This comes at a
> >far higher cost, I know, but IMO it's worth it.
>
> An early death is worth that little extra edge? Do you like playing
> suicidal homicidals?
>
> - -

Makes you wonder why Argent suddenly has it. :-)

-Twist

"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."

From:	Shane Hyde chaff.editor@*****.net.nz
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 99 16:27:49 +1300

Message no. 21 IMO friggin MBW systems are to help keep you alive. Give you that edge
against a foe who is a little fragging better n you. That's why I don't
use it. It kills you, frags you up. It's like smoking. Sure, it feels
good, but in the end, it shaves thick bacon-rashers off the end of your
life, and there's plenty of other things that'll do that to you too.

Anybody thought about what the toxicology of the atmosohere in 2060 would
be doing to you lungs? What the acid rain is doing to your scalp? Whether
this guy coming down the street is going to whip out a gun or a religious
pamhlet? Life's too risky to go implanting heavy duty MBW systems to get
the edge FOR THE SHORT TERM. I'd rather biff a few Offensive grenades and
split. Gimmie longer legs, anyday.

I thought Argent would be smarter than that.

Another thought. In your opinions, what's the relevance of
Judeao-Christian religious beliefs in the Sixth World? Would everybody
turn Religious now that doomsday has cometh and 'demons' (in the guise of
trolls, drekcetera) walk the Earth? Or would the Awakening be taken as
the final, clinching proof in the non-existence of God?

From:	Strago strago@***.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:35:08 -0500

Message no. 22 abortion_engine@*******.com wrote:

> > Strago wrote:
> ><SNIP>

> Most, maybe, but not all. Haven't you ever played
> the character who thinks only about now? Who cares
> only about effectiveness, about living through the
> next year, not the next decade? The kind of guy
> who, in the real world, takes methamphetamines
> before a B&E so he won't run down?
>

Actually, no, I never have played that kind of character. The ones who
were true "professionals" that I'd play wouldn't go near drugs, when on a
run or not. And I once had a character turn down a trip to the clubs
because he was such a professional that once he'd told a Johnson "I will
accept the assignment" (Sarge really talked like that) he would get 13
hours of sleep so he wouldn't run down, and the other 11 hours were spent
in some form of preparing for the run ie. scoping it out or exercising or
cleaning his guns and making sure everything was good to go on his end.
Then I've also played ones who are true "sammies," cleaning their
fingernails with a blade while talking to the Johnson, picking their nose
with a gun while negotiating, that sort of thing. But never one like that.

>
> These are the kinds of guys who get the MBW. The
> fatalists, and the people who don't really think
> of the consequences of their actions. Hedonists
> and apathists.
>
> Yeah, most people probably aren't doing it for
> ROLLplaying reasons, but for the numerical
> superiority issue. I wouldn't know; I don't let
> that sort of person play with me anymore.

Pity, some of my good friends at home are like that and we still have a
grand old time. Sometimes it's fun to just rape the rules and then kill
stuff because you can. Not that I'm psychopathic or anything. ;^)

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror,
murder, bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the
Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they
produce? The cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+
(o++ d+) gm+ M P

From:	abortion_engine@*****.com abortion_engine@*****.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:35:34 -0500

Message no. 23 From: "Shane Hyde" <chaff.editor@*****.net.nz>
> IMO friggin MBW systems are to help keep you
alive. Give you that edge
> against a foe who is a little fragging better n
you. That's why I don't
> use it. It kills you, frags you up. It's like
smoking. Sure, it feels
> good, but in the end, it shaves thick
bacon-rashers off the end of your
> life, and there's plenty of other things that'll
do that to you too.

Well, I've smoked for close to 20 years now; not
everyone cares about the future when the present
is so much closer.

> Anybody thought about what the toxicology of the
atmosohere in 2060 would
> be doing to you lungs? What the acid rain is
doing to your scalp? Whether
> this guy coming down the street is going to whip
out a gun or a religious
> pamhlet? Life's too risky to go implanting heavy
duty MBW systems to get
> the edge FOR THE SHORT TERM. I'd rather biff a
few Offensive grenades and
> split. Gimmie longer legs, anyday.

But see, that's the thing; I might die today
anyway, I might as well get what mileage I can out
of life. In SR, life is cheap. Fatalism is the
watchword. Immediate gratification. My sort of
time.

> I thought Argent would be smarter than that.

Well, Argent would be. But his writers aren't,
always.

> Another thought. In your opinions, what's the
relevance of
> Judeao-Christian religious beliefs in the Sixth
World? Would everybody
> turn Religious now that doomsday has cometh and
'demons' (in the guise of
> trolls, drekcetera) walk the Earth? Or would the
Awakening be taken as
> the final, clinching proof in the non-existence
of God?

Whenever science cannot explain a thing, religion
will re-surface. People hate the unknown, and will
turn to any sort of solution they can in the face
of it. When religion failed to answer the
questions science did, people abandoned it, as it
was no longer necessary. In SR, science has failed
the human race, left questions that cannot be
answered. People would flock to religion. It's
actually quite simple.

By the way, Shane, responses go *after* the
original post. And always quote the post you're
replying to. Oh, and read the FAQ, at
http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/showfaq.php3?title
=ShadowRN&faqlistúqsrn. This has been a friendly
public service announcement from The Committee To
Save The Admins Time. Thank you.

--abortion_engine

From:	abortion_engine@*****.com abortion_engine@*****.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:59:19 -0500

Message no. 24 From: "Strago" <strago@***.com>
> abortion_engine@*******.com wrote:
> > Most, maybe, but not all. Haven't you ever played
> > the character who thinks only about now? Who cares
> > only about effectiveness, about living through the
> > next year, not the next decade? The kind of guy
> > who, in the real world, takes methamphetamines
> > before a B&E so he won't run down?
> >
>
> Actually, no, I never have played that kind of character. The ones
who
> were true "professionals" that I'd play wouldn't go near drugs, when
on a
> run or not.

Oh, see, I don't always play true professionals. That'd get boring in
a hurry. And I wouldn't get any Karma. [GM: You get three points of
Karma. Me: What? I was in character the entire time? GM: Yeah. You
played yourself really well. Now shut up.]

Sometimes, I play psychopaths. I mean, real psychopaths. Sometimes
sociopaths--although the semantic argument could be made that we're
all playing sociopaths. Sometimes, I play live-for-the-moment type
gun-guys. Sometimes I play modern-day samurai, or at least ronin.
Sometimes I play street kids. The archetype, I mean, not the concept.
Sometimes, mothers with children. Sometimes, animalistic
shapeshifters.

C'mon; variety is the spice of life!

> And I once had a character turn down a trip to the clubs
> because he was such a professional that once he'd told a Johnson "I
will
> accept the assignment" (Sarge really talked like that) he would get
13
> hours of sleep so he wouldn't run down, and the other 11 hours were
spent
> in some form of preparing for the run ie. scoping it out or
exercising or
> cleaning his guns and making sure everything was good to go on his
end.
> Then I've also played ones who are true "sammies," cleaning their
> fingernails with a blade while talking to the Johnson, picking their
nose
> with a gun while negotiating, that sort of thing. But never one like
that.

Yep, played them. Heh.

> > These are the kinds of guys who get the MBW. The
> > fatalists, and the people who don't really think
> > of the consequences of their actions. Hedonists
> > and apathists.
> >
> > Yeah, most people probably aren't doing it for
> > ROLLplaying reasons, but for the numerical
> > superiority issue. I wouldn't know; I don't let
> > that sort of person play with me anymore.
>
> Pity, some of my good friends at home are like that and we still
have a
> grand old time. Sometimes it's fun to just rape the rules and then
kill
> stuff because you can. Not that I'm psychopathic or anything. ;^)

Well, I am. :)

Remember, we don't play primarily for fun; we play to learn, to
practice. We don't do a whole lot of things that could be construed as
"fun." We're not really very "fun" people.

Besides, when I just feel like blowing something up, I get out my
Paranoia books. :)

From:	Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:19:54 -0500

Message no. 25 A-E wrote:
> Most, maybe, but not all. Haven't you ever played
> the character who thinks only about now? Who cares
> only about effectiveness, about living through the
> next year, not the next decade? The kind of guy
> who, in the real world, takes methamphetamines
> before a B&E so he won't run down?

I agree with the concept. I just wish the people that I've met were playing
for those reasons. I make them chance the side effects and then after a near
miss or actual hit they want to redo their character. Someone who accepts
the side effects as part of the deal is the person who is into it for
character development, the ones who want to skirt or ignore it are in it for
the points.

;)

Smilin' Jack

From:	Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:23:02 -0600

Message no. 26 From: abortion_engine
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 7:54 AM

> > It's worth it to you to have automatic stress, ridiculously high
> > chances for epilepsy, and possibly worse, within the space of a few
> > months, after spending (as a minimum) hundreds of thousands of nuyen?
> > You do different kinds of cost/benefit analysis than I do, I believe.
>
> Right. Those things, opposite the fact that you're much more likely to
> die if you *don't* have it, given the nature of your job.

Well...no. There are other pieces of cyber that will give you a reflex
edge, without the cyber itself trying to kill you (or at least damage you).

> Let's think about it, gents; this is not a job for people who want
> to live.

I disagree; you paint things with entirely too broad a brushstroke. Perhaps
your characters are all suicidal; mine are not. There's a big difference
between someone who works in a job where he knows he can die, and someone
not wanting to live. Having attempted suicide once, I know there's a big
difference there. You can work a high-risk job and not want to die.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:14:21 -0500

Message no. 27 > abortion_engine@*******.com wrote:
>
> > > Strago wrote:
> > ><SNIP>
>
> > Most, maybe, but not all. Haven't you ever played
> > the character who thinks only about now? Who cares
> > only about effectiveness, about living through the
> > next year, not the next decade? The kind of guy
> > who, in the real world, takes methamphetamines
> > before a B&E so he won't run down?
> >
>
> Actually, no, I never have played that kind of character. The ones
who
> were true "professionals" that I'd play wouldn't go near drugs, when
on a
> run or not. And I once had a character turn down a trip to the clubs
> because he was such a professional that once he'd told a Johnson "I
will
> accept the assignment" (Sarge really talked like that) he would get
13
> hours of sleep so he wouldn't run down, and the other 11 hours were
spent
> in some form of preparing for the run ie. scoping it out or
exercising or
> cleaning his guns and making sure everything was good to go on his
end.
> Then I've also played ones who are true "sammies," cleaning their
> fingernails with a blade while talking to the Johnson, picking their
nose
> with a gun while negotiating, that sort of thing. But never one like
that.

Actually, what if the character never knew what MbW was capable of
doing, much like no one knew what wired reflexes did to one's mind
until 2050? I mean the effects of MBW could be attributed to
"one-in-a-million side effects" that can be cured (and how does one
notice regeneration of Intelligence and Willpower anyway?), right?
Yeah, TLE-x and CCSS would be harder to stop, but once you've got
those, you're dead anyway.

AK404
http://freespeech.org/ak404/

From:	Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:33:20 -0600

Message no. 28 From: Strago
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 8:02 AM

> > Right. Those things, opposite the fact that you're much more
> > likely to die if you *don't* have it, given the nature of your
> > job. Let's think about it, gents; this is not a job for people
> > who want to live.
>
> AHHH but that's RolEplaying, a long forgotten and long-lost art
> which games are named for but which doesn't exist in the world
> anymore.

<scratches head, leans back in chair, and reads this over again>

Now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, Josh, and assume
that you didn't just say what it looks like you said there. Especially
about me.

> Instead you have the "it took me three hours to make this character,
> nothing bad's ever going to happen to him/her if I have anything to
> say about it and I'll kick and scream and whine if something does"
> attitude that I've seen as more prevalent today.

OTOH, perhaps you did say that about me, and a lot of other people. And I,
for one, take some umbrage at that. Whatever faults I might have, I happen
to know I'm a good role-player, and it peeves me mightily when someone who
doesn't know me from Adam decides they can slam me and my approach to the
game.

FWIW, I was approaching it from the standpoint of most of my characters, and
my own personal guage (that being, "What would I put in my *own* body under
the circumstances?"). Move-By-Wire is friggin' insane; no fuckin' way would
I put that into my own body voluntarily.

You don't like the way I play, or design my characters? That's fine. It's
a free goddamn country, you do what you want. But spare me the sarcasm and
the insults, intended or no.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:43:35 -0600

Message no. 29 From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz)
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 10:50 AM

> MBW would only be an option for the terminally insane (quite literal),
> very short-sighted people with a lot of money or the terminally optimistic
> (they'll find a fix before my time is up). For everyone else it's like
> taking Kamikaze; dead-end road. And I doubt that many GMs accuse their
> players of min-maxing because they don't take the enhancing drugs. Same
> thing, cheaper package.

Bingo.

That being said, I do have an NPC with MBW, and he's a vicious SOB. Of
course, before the system was implanted in him, he was also paralyzed from
about the third thoracic vertebra on down. In my game, at least, the
technology functions as a kind of spinal bypass (similar to what I imagine
reaction enhancers started life as, a means to overcome paralysis without
necessarily lopping off limbs). The MBW is the only thing that allows Keith
to walk; it has some other nifty benefits, as well. But it also comes with
the price tag that Keith knows he's a walking dead man (he'll be lucky if he
sees Christmas of 2060, it being almost Christmas 2059 in my game at the
moment). And that kind of knowledge can damage a man.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:43:38 -0600

Message no. 30 From: Ojaste,James [NCR]
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 1:26 PM

> Page 30, Paragraph 1:
> "The character must take these extra actions...and must recalculate
> his next Initiative Pass normally after doing so (subtract 10 from
> Initiative)."
>
> I take that to mean that as soon as you take an action, you subtract
> 10 from your Initiative, so you'd be at a total of -20 at the end
> of the first pass.

I don't read it the same way; the way I read it is that your Initiative is
calculated normally, you just get extra actions. Which is really wiz-bang,
but dangerously powerful.

I wish Mike would pop in so we could clarify that.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	Twist0059@*.com Twist0059@*.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:46:24 EST

Message no. 31 In a message dated 11/30/99 11:08:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> > > Yeah, most people probably aren't doing it for
> > > ROLLplaying reasons, but for the numerical
> > > superiority issue. I wouldn't know; I don't let
> > > that sort of person play with me anymore.
> >
> > Pity, some of my good friends at home are like that and we still
> have a
> > grand old time. Sometimes it's fun to just rape the rules and then
> kill
> > stuff because you can. Not that I'm psychopathic or anything. ;^)
>
> Well, I am. :)
>
> Remember, we don't play primarily for fun; we play to learn, to
> practice. We don't do a whole lot of things that could be construed as
> "fun." We're not really very "fun" people.

We don't play roleplaying games for fun?

-Twist
"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."

From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:13:22 -0800

Message no. 32 On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:18:06 -0500 "Mike & Linda Frankl"
<mlfrankl@***.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> You make my point. Most people who can't get enough of the M-B-W system
> aren't role-playing and are completely ignoring the associated
degenerative
> diseases. I had a guy show up at my table and give my a really blank
stare
> when I asked him about it. I think K hit the nail on the head earlier
when
> he said read everything not just a single line. Most folks miss that
section
> about TLEx or CCSS (sometimes on purpose).

I created a character who took MBW 1, partly because she was a Sam, but
mostly because of the alien grace. She also had Enhanced Articulation
(more grace) and Synaptic Accelerators 1 (more speed). She was an Ork
ex-sim star _planning_ on not seeing tommorrow. She didn't expect to live
long enough to worry about complications with the MBW. Her twin sister is
a rigger and, of course, frets over the choices her sister
made/makes/will make.

Does that count as a valid character made with MBW? :P~

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:24:16 -0800

Message no. 33 On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:02:07 +0100 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
<SNIP>
> As for the other game effects, you have to check for TLE-x at the same
> interval, though the test TN is changed (it now depends on the MBW
level
> instead of being the same for all levels).
<SNIP>

Page 55 Cybertechnology:
Complication Table
Move-by-Wire Level Test Frequency Target Number
1 Every 6 months 3
2 Every 4 months 4
3 Every 4 months 5
4 Every 3 months 6

Uhm, Gurth, it has ALWAYS been a different TN for each level. This is
why I've always thouoght MBW 1 to be fairly reasonable.

Do you still need 2 successes to escape the bad effects?

> According to Dennis Steinmeijer, at 12:48 on 30 Nov 99, the word on the

> street was...
<SNIP>
> > I still can see why anyone would opt to have a Move-by-wire system
> > installed.

Gurth again:
> Those who expect to live for a short while might choose it, as well as
> runners who don't think about tomorrow. If you have any long-term
plans,
> better stay clear :)

Don't forget the bullet-proof syndrome.

Doc: "It happens to every implantee."
Patient: "Yeah, but it'll never happen to me."

Also, at least in SR2, you could get the problem treated if the failure
wasn't too severe. So even if you don't roll enough successes, but still
roll one success, you could last quite a while, especially with MBW 1 or
2.

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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From:	Twist0059@*.com Twist0059@*.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:09:50 EST

Message no. 34 In a message dated 11/30/99 12:51:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA writes:

> Well, it wouldn't have been nearly so disgusting had your
> magic burnt out. Besides, didn't you like taking point all the
> time? :-)
>
> MBW4 is disgusting in anybody, really -

During some free time last year, I took down the Move-By-Wire system and
tried to duplicate it's effects with bio & cyber, but without the death
sentence.

Using muscle augmentation, synaptic accelerators, and reflex enhancers, you
can create a human character with 15 + 3D6. This comes out to an average
init of 21. And that's at chargen with plenty of extra room for
body-enhancing ware.

Such a character would on average be just a few notches lower than the
character with MBW-4, only this character would also have this ability at
chargen, without the health problems, and with a variety of other ware to
increase his combat and defensive abilities.

Other than the new SR3 rules for how much cyber and bio you can cram into a
body limiting such a character as above, I can't see why people would buy
MBW-4, honestly.

-Twist
"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."

From:	Frank Pelletier (Trinity) fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:13:00 -0500

Message no. 35 <Twist0059@***.com> once wrote,

> Other than the new SR3 rules for how much cyber and bio you can cram into
a
> body limiting such a character as above, I can't see why people would buy
> MBW-4, honestly.

Blah...

First off, MBW-4 puts you over the top, init-wise. I mean, 5d6 Ini, on
average, is something fierce. Sure, you don't have any essence left, but
hell, you gotta pay for the cool toys...

Besides, who the hell roleplays for efficiency? It's all about style. And
MBW-equipped people must have some huge nervous tics, drawbacks. It's
always interresting to roleplay someone one the edge.

Trinity
---------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
"Tout les matins du monde sont sans retour" - Marin Marais

Trin on the Undernet and EFNet

From:	Twist0059@*.com Twist0059@*.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:49:40 EST

Message no. 36 In a message dated 12/1/99 2:17:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fpelletier@******.usherb.ca writes:

>
> > Other than the new SR3 rules for how much cyber and bio you can cram into
> a
> > body limiting such a character as above, I can't see why people would buy
> > MBW-4, honestly.

>
> Blah...
>
> First off, MBW-4 puts you over the top, init-wise. I mean, 5d6 Ini, on
> average, is something fierce. Sure, you don't have any essence left, but
> hell, you gotta pay for the cool toys...
>
> Besides, who the hell roleplays for efficiency? It's all about style. And
> MBW-equipped people must have some huge nervous tics, drawbacks. It's
> always interresting to roleplay someone one the edge.
>
> Trinity
> ----------------------

I totally agree with that last part, of not roleplaying for sheer efficiency.
(Or rather letting the character decide what gear he'd have, not the player
who can study the rules.)

The people who do roleplay for efficiency (and thus say screw the character
in favor of a combat monster) are usually Power Gamers who want to dominate
every combat scene (or who think roleplaying is some mechanics game where the
object is to load up the dice in your favor). I can't understand why these
power gamers, obsessed with being such killing machines, would take a piece
of cyberware far more likely to kill them than the NPCs they face.

At least when you fight NPCs you have your team with you (usually). In the
battle to stay alive carrying the MBW-4 monster, you have to go it alone.

-Twist
"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."

From:	Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:15:41 -0400

Message no. 37 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Shane Hyde."
] Another thought. In your opinions, what's the relevance of
] Judeao-Christian religious beliefs in the Sixth World? Would everybody
] turn Religious now that doomsday has cometh and 'demons' (in the guise of
] trolls, drekcetera) walk the Earth? Or would the Awakening be taken as
] the final, clinching proof in the non-existence of God?

Actually, the views of the various major religions on Magic and the
Awakening is detailed in Magic in the Shadows. Good stuff.

-Boondocker

From:	Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:19:23 -0400

Message no. 38 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Angelkiller 404."
] Actually, what if the character never knew what MbW was capable of
] doing, much like no one knew what wired reflexes did to one's mind
] until 2050? I mean the effects of MBW could be attributed to
] "one-in-a-million side effects" that can be cured (and how does one
] notice regeneration of Intelligence and Willpower anyway?), right?
] Yeah, TLE-x and CCSS would be harder to stop, but once you've got
] those, you're dead anyway.

Well, assuming you survive the combat that TLE-x hits you in, you can
survive MBW quite easily. TLE-x can be corrected, not onece, but
twice! Isn't that great? And as for CCSS, well golly, that's
survivable too. You just have to get those nasty wires ripped out of
your system. Then, assuming your GM isn't a bastard who makes you lose
Attributes, you're fine! See? Isn't MBW so much nicer now?

-Boondocker

From:	abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:54:55 -0500

Message no. 39 From: "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>

> From: abortion_engine
> > > It's worth it to you to have automatic stress, ridiculously high
> > > chances for epilepsy, and possibly worse, within the space of a few
> > > months, after spending (as a minimum) hundreds of thousands of nuyen?
> > > You do different kinds of cost/benefit analysis than I do, I believe.
> >
> > Right. Those things, opposite the fact that you're much more likely to
> > die if you *don't* have it, given the nature of your job.
>
> Well...no. There are other pieces of cyber that will give you a reflex
> edge, without the cyber itself trying to kill you (or at least damage
you).

But not that give you that same edge. [Speaking at least a little in
character.]

> > Let's think about it, gents; this is not a job for people who want
> > to live.
>
> I disagree; you paint things with entirely too broad a brushstroke.
Perhaps
> your characters are all suicidal; mine are not. There's a big difference
> between someone who works in a job where he knows he can die, and someone
> not wanting to live. Having attempted suicide once, I know there's a big
> difference there. You can work a high-risk job and not want to die.

I don't mean to say they're all suicidal, but they are, as I've said
elsewhere, fatalistic. We're talking about a job where you get shot at for a
living. You are a criminal. Period. Full stop.

You *can* work a high risk job, where people shoot missles at you all day,
and not want to die; but I would think, if you didn't want to die, that
you'd do everything you could to stay living another day. Sometimes, that
means buying ware that kills you. Tradeoff.

From:	abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:57:40 -0500

Message no. 40 ----- Original Message -----
From: <Twist0059@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M

> In a message dated 11/30/99 11:08:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
>
> > > > Yeah, most people probably aren't doing it for
> > > > ROLLplaying reasons, but for the numerical
> > > > superiority issue. I wouldn't know; I don't let
> > > > that sort of person play with me anymore.
> > >
> > > Pity, some of my good friends at home are like that and we still
> > have a
> > > grand old time. Sometimes it's fun to just rape the rules and then
> > kill
> > > stuff because you can. Not that I'm psychopathic or anything. ;^)
> >
> > Well, I am. :)
> >
> > Remember, we don't play primarily for fun; we play to learn, to
> > practice. We don't do a whole lot of things that could be construed as
> > "fun." We're not really very "fun" people.
>
> We don't play roleplaying games for fun?

Sorry: "We," meaning myself and my group.

From:	abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:56:58 -0500

Message no. 41 > > > Right. Those things, opposite the fact that you're much more
> > > likely to die if you *don't* have it, given the nature of your
> > > job. Let's think about it, gents; this is not a job for people
> > > who want to live.
> >
> > AHHH but that's RolEplaying, a long forgotten and long-lost art
> > which games are named for but which doesn't exist in the world
> > anymore.
>
> <scratches head, leans back in chair, and reads this over again>
>
> Now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, Josh, and assume
> that you didn't just say what it looks like you said there. Especially
> about me.
>
> > Instead you have the "it took me three hours to make this character,
> > nothing bad's ever going to happen to him/her if I have anything to
> > say about it and I'll kick and scream and whine if something does"
> > attitude that I've seen as more prevalent today.
>
> OTOH, perhaps you did say that about me, and a lot of other people. And
I,
> for one, take some umbrage at that. Whatever faults I might have, I
happen
> to know I'm a good role-player, and it peeves me mightily when someone who
> doesn't know me from Adam decides they can slam me and my approach to the
> game.
>
> FWIW, I was approaching it from the standpoint of most of my characters,
and
> my own personal guage (that being, "What would I put in my *own* body
under
> the circumstances?"). Move-By-Wire is friggin' insane; no fuckin' way
would
> I put that into my own body voluntarily.
>
> You don't like the way I play, or design my characters? That's fine.
It's
> a free goddamn country, you do what you want. But spare me the sarcasm
and
> the insults, intended or no.

You should only be insulted if the insult is meant for you; is what he said
true about you, personally? If not, then don't take it personally.

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:06:48 +0100

Message no. 42 According to Ojaste,James [NCR], at 14:26 on 30 Nov 99, the word on the
street was...

> > One question I have about MBW, though, is the extra action for levels 3
> > and 4. Taking level 3 as an example, it says you get an extra action at
> > the end of the first initiative pass of the turn. So does that mean you
> > get an action in phase 0? And do you subtract another 10 from your
>
> Hmm. It says "at the end", so I'd say phase -1, just to be safe.
> As long as it's after everybody without MBW...

Nothing characters can do happens in phase 0, so I think that would be as
good a time as any. But I do wish FASA would have clarified this whole
rule a little bit better...

> > initiative (a total of -20 at the end of the first pass), or
> > do you keep
> > your normal rolled initiative (i.e. only -10 after the first pass)?
>
> Page 30, Paragraph 1:
> "The character must take these extra actions...and must recalculate
> his next Initiative Pass normally after doing so (subtract 10 from
> Initiative)."

I read that, and it confused me. It can be argued that this refers to the
normal -10 initiative you get at the end of each pass, but it can also
mean that you subtract an additional 10.

> I take that to mean that as soon as you take an action, you subtract
> 10 from your Initiative, so you'd be at a total of -20 at the end
> of the first pass.

That is the way that makes more sense, because otherwise characters with
MBW get an action absolutely free. This way, they get extra actions before
others do, but they don't get them for nothing.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:32:30 EST

Message no. 43 In a message dated 11/30/1999 11:45:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.net writes:

> you subtract
> > 10 from your Initiative, so you'd be at a total of -20 at the end
> > of the first pass.
>
> I don't read it the same way; the way I read it is that your Initiative is
> calculated normally, you just get extra actions. Which is really wiz-bang,
> but dangerously powerful.
>
> I wish Mike would pop in so we could clarify that.

Folks, this is clarified, and the I left a specific part of the previous post
before Patrick's to point out the fact that it *IS* clarified.

The words are *Initiative PASS*, not *Combat TURN*.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:34:38 EST

Message no. 44 In a message dated 11/30/1999 11:47:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> > Remember, we don't play primarily for fun; we play to learn, to
> > practice. We don't do a whole lot of things that could be construed as
> > "fun." We're not really very "fun" people.
>
> We don't play roleplaying games for fun?

Twist, *THIS* is another example of learning to read correct and place
correct connotation into something. A_E said "WE", in reference to himself
and his game group, not in reference to *WE* the complete collective of all
gamers. Keep that clear and you prevent both your own confusion and the
spreading of confusion to others, as A_E has explained his opinions of this
in the past and made himself, at least IMO, rather clear on the matter.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:48:10 EST

Message no. 45 In a message dated 12/1/1999 2:11:10 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> During some free time last year, I took down the Move-By-Wire system and
> tried to duplicate it's effects with bio & cyber, but without the death
> sentence.
>
> Using muscle augmentation, synaptic accelerators, and reflex enhancers,
you
> can create a human character with 15 + 3D6. This comes out to an average
> init of 21. And that's at chargen with plenty of extra room for
> body-enhancing ware.
>
> Such a character would on average be just a few notches lower than the
> character with MBW-4, only this character would also have this ability at
> chargen, without the health problems, and with a variety of other ware to
> increase his combat and defensive abilities.
>
> Other than the new SR3 rules for how much cyber and bio you can cram into
a
> body limiting such a character as above, I can't see why people would buy
> MBW-4, honestly.

Two reasons:

A) Number crunching effects and simplistic approach to character generation.

B) Multiple actions during phase(s) 1 & 2 (MBW level dependant) which is NOT
recreatable with any amount of alternative bio/cyber.

But of course, this is SR3 I'm speaking in, you're in SR2...

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:58:41 EST

Message no. 46 In a message dated 12/1/1999 8:04:22 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> > I take that to mean that as soon as you take an action, you subtract
> > 10 from your Initiative, so you'd be at a total of -20 at the end
> > of the first pass.
>
> That is the way that makes more sense, because otherwise characters with
> MBW get an action absolutely free. This way, they get extra actions before
> others do, but they don't get them for nothing.

But that isn't the way of it Gurth.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:28:03 +0100

Message no. 47 According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 9:58 on 1 Dec 99, the word on
the street was...

> > > I take that to mean that as soon as you take an action, you subtract
> > > 10 from your Initiative, so you'd be at a total of -20 at the end
> > > of the first pass.
> >
> > That is the way that makes more sense, because otherwise characters with
> > MBW get an action absolutely free. This way, they get extra actions before
> > others do, but they don't get them for nothing.
>
> But that isn't the way of it Gurth.

Christ, Keith, I wish you would give slightly more explanation in some of
your posts...! Instead of clarifying the question I have, you're only
muddying the waters here.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:28:03 +0100

Message no. 48 According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 9:32 on 1 Dec 99, the word on
the street was...

> Folks, this is clarified, and the I left a specific part of the previous post
> before Patrick's to point out the fact that it *IS* clarified.
>
> The words are *Initiative PASS*, not *Combat TURN*.

It is still very much open to debate, IMHO. It could have been solved by a
single extra sentence in M&M, but the way it's worded now can be
interpreted in different ways...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:10:56 EST

Message no. 49 In a message dated 12/1/1999 1:25:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> > > That is the way that makes more sense, because otherwise characters
with
>
> > > MBW get an action absolutely free. This way, they get extra actions
> before
> > > others do, but they don't get them for nothing.
> >
> > But that isn't the way of it Gurth.
>
> Christ, Keith, I wish you would give slightly more explanation in some of
> your posts...! Instead of clarifying the question I have, you're only
> muddying the waters here.

In this case Gurth, I really don't have to. The rules are fairly straight
forward and if you are confused by them, I would simply suggest reading
through them slowly again and making sure of the *words* that are used.
"Pass" in this particular instance.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

From:	Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject:	Move-by-friggin'-wire in M&M
Date:	Wed, 1 Dec 1999 14:51:07 -0500

Message no. 50 > From: Ereskanti@***.com [mailto:Ereskanti@***.com]
> Sent: December 1, 1999 14:11
>
> In a message dated 12/1/1999 1:25:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> gurth@******.nl writes:
[snip]
> > Christ, Keith, I wish you would give slightly more
> explanation in some of
> > your posts...! Instead of clarifying the question I have,
> you're only
> > muddying the waters here.
> In this case Gurth, I really don't have to. The rules are

So, because *you* think it's clear, you think everybody should think
it's clear? I'm solidly on Gurth's side here - the sentence doesn't
specify whether the -10 is flat rate, or in addition to the first action.

> fairly straight
> forward and if you are confused by them, I would simply
> suggest reading
> through them slowly again and making sure of the *words* that
> are used.

Come on, there's no call for that tone of, er, finger.

> "Pass" in this particular instance.

"The character...must recalculate his next Initiative Pass normally
after doing so (subtract 10 from Initiative)." Normally, after each
action 10 is subtracted from that character's Initiative. However,
we're given an unusual situation (2 actions) here, and asked to
perform a "normal" operation on it.

So. On the first Pass, on Phase 25 I take my first action, and subtract
10 from my Initiative. At the end of the Pass, do I take my extra
action and subtract 10 from my Initiative again, or is the -10 considered
inclusive with the first action? The wording leads me to believe the
first, but I can see how somebody might make an argument for the second.
Thus, it is not clear - to Gurth and I at least.

James Ojaste

Message no. 51 In a message dated 12/1/99 9:36:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > > Remember, we don't play primarily for fun; we play to learn, to
> > > practice. We don't do a whole lot of things that could be construed
as
> > > "fun." We're not really very "fun" people.
> >
> > We don't play roleplaying games for fun?
>
> Twist, *THIS* is another example of learning to read correct and place
> correct connotation into something. A_E said "WE", in reference to
himself
> and his game group, not in reference to *WE* the complete collective of
all
> gamers. Keep that clear and you prevent both your own confusion and the
> spreading of confusion to others, as A_E has explained his opinions of
this
> in the past and made himself, at least IMO, rather clear on the matter.

See, I'd have to have read it in the first place to be able to "keep it
clear". Which didn't happen. I've never read about A_E's gaming prefs.

To really keep things clearer (since some people may not have read every SR
mailing list post in the past few months), wouldn't it have been better to
say, "Remember, my group doesn't play primarily for fun...."?

-Twist
"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."

Message no. 52 On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:28:03 +0100 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
> According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 9:32 on 1 Dec 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > Folks, this is clarified, and the I left a specific part of the
> previous post
> > before Patrick's to point out the fact that it *IS* clarified.
> >
> > The words are *Initiative PASS*, not *Combat TURN*.
>
> It is still very much open to debate, IMHO. It could have been
> solved by a
> single extra sentence in M&M, but the way it's worded now can be
> interpreted in different ways...

As usual(except MitS mainly) for months its "where is M&M" then, for
months more its "Where is the M&M Erratta/FAQ?"

:-)
(still waiting to get it myself, due to FASA's shipping thing <grumble>)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum>;

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 53 "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> writes:
> > From: Ereskanti@***.com [mailto:Ereskanti@***.com]
> > Sent: December 1, 1999 14:11
> > fairly straight
> > forward and if you are confused by them, I would simply
> > suggest reading
> > through them slowly again and making sure of the *words* that
> > are used.
>
> Come on, there's no call for that tone of, er, finger.

Oh, good, it's not just me. K's method of talking down to
people who can interpret text multiple ways was starting to bother me
as well.

Mark

Message no. 54 >> Remember, we don't play primarily for fun; we play to learn, to
>> practice. We don't do a whole lot of things that could be construed as
>> "fun." We're not really very "fun" people.
>
>We don't play roleplaying games for fun?

And I'm not really a fun person? I could take offense at that. My players
have fun in my game, which I think is reflective of me.

Shane

Message no. 55 From: "Shane Hyde" <chaff.editor@*****.net.nz>
> >> Remember, we don't play primarily for fun; we play to learn, to
> >> practice. We don't do a whole lot of things that could be construed as
> >> "fun." We're not really very "fun" people.
> >
> >We don't play roleplaying games for fun?
>
> And I'm not really a fun person? I could take offense at that. My players
> have fun in my game, which I think is reflective of me.

No, that's not what I meant. Again, when I said "we," I meant "myself and
my
players," or "the people around here." I do not speak for anyone else on
the
list; that would be even more presumptuous than I already am.

I really, really wish I had been more clear. My apologies for not having
done so, everyone.

Good lord; I can't wait until my players start signing up to this list. What
confusion we'll have then.

Message no. 56 James Ojaste sed:
:"The character...must recalculate his next Initiative Pass normally
:after doing so (subtract 10 from Initiative)." Normally, after each
:action 10 is subtracted from that character's Initiative. However,
:we're given an unusual situation (2 actions) here, and asked to
:perform a "normal" operation on it.

Normally, near the end of a pass, you take 10 off everybodies
initiative, all at once. It is not done on a "after each action" basis.
The extra MBW action happens at the end of the run (after this) and requires
you to "recalculate".

:So. On the first Pass, on Phase 25 I take my first action, and subtract
:10 from my Initiative. At the end of the Pass, do I take my extra
:action and subtract 10 from my Initiative again, or is the -10 considered
:inclusive with the first action? The wording leads me to believe the
:first, but I can see how somebody might make an argument for the second.
:Thus, it is not clear - to Gurth and I at least.

As I read it, According to p. 104 of SR3, you would act on 25, and then,
as the last step in the pass, subtract 10 from initiative. But wait- you
have MBW 3 or 4, and its the pass is now at its end? Well, you must take
another action, and then re-calculate your initiaitve, by subtracting 10.
If you splice the MBW rules for extra actions into the normal combat
order rules (as written in the SR3 book, not as "common sense" dictates),
then the intent is pretty clear, I think; it effecively inserts a "pass 1.5"
that MBW 3 + 4 users must take an action in, and a "pass 2.5" that MBW 4
users must take an action in.

-Mongoose

Message no. 57 In a message dated 12/1/1999 2:52:29 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA writes:

> So. On the first Pass, on Phase 25 I take my first action, and subtract
> 10 from my Initiative. At the end of the Pass, do I take my extra
> action and subtract 10 from my Initiative again, or is the -10 considered
> inclusive with the first action? The wording leads me to believe the
> first, but I can see how somebody might make an argument for the second.
> Thus, it is not clear - to Gurth and I at least.

All the actions involved take place *within* the pass though James.
Therefore, the adjustments are made to following/upcoming passes.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

Message no. 58 According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 14:10 on 1 Dec 99, the word on
the street was...

> In this case Gurth, I really don't have to. The rules are fairly straight
> forward and if you are confused by them, I would simply suggest reading
> through them slowly again and making sure of the *words* that are used.
> "Pass" in this particular instance.

Sorry, but I will maintain this can be interpreted two ways. I had already
read it more than once and came to the conclusion that you subtract an
_extra_ 10 from your initiative, but it's not specifically stated anywhere
-- and having to read between the lines for rules is not good, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 59 According to Sebastian Wiers, at 15:52 on 1 Dec 99, the word on
the street was...

> If you splice the MBW rules for extra actions into the normal combat
> order rules (as written in the SR3 book, not as "common sense" dictates),
> then the intent is pretty clear, I think; it effecively inserts a "pass
1.5"
> that MBW 3 + 4 users must take an action in, and a "pass 2.5" that MBW 4
> users must take an action in.

In other words, it's like James and I suspected it happens. As I said
yesterday, one extra line (like the one after your semi-colon) in the
description would have made it all so much clearer.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 60 On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:26:18 -0500
"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> wrote:

> Page 30, Paragraph 1:
> "The character must take these extra actions...and must recalculate
> his next Initiative Pass normally after doing so (subtract 10 from
> Initiative)."
>
> I take that to mean that as soon as you take an action, you subtract
> 10 from your Initiative, so you'd be at a total of -20 at the end
> of the first pass.

From this bit of text, I understand that everyone acts normally
in the first pass, then the wired character takes a "free" action,
without subtracting nothing from his score. Then everyone subtracts 10
>from their score normally, and the combat proceeds according to the
standard rules until the end of the whole turn (that is, Phase 0).

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
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Message no. 61 On Wed, 1 Dec 99 16:27:49 +1300
Shane Hyde <chaff.editor@*****.net.nz> wrote:

>
> Another thought. In your opinions, what's the relevance of
> Judeao-Christian religious beliefs in the Sixth World? Would everybody
> turn Religious now that doomsday has cometh and 'demons' (in the guise of
> trolls, drekcetera) walk the Earth? Or would the Awakening be taken as
> the final, clinching proof in the non-existence of God?

It would keep going, I think. There would be people with large
biases, but they'd be minority, please forget the stereotypes. There
would be people who would view metahumans as normal people and accept
magic as a natural thing (not necessarily because the Pope said so :) ),
and there would be plenty of magicians (shamanic and hermetic) slinging
their magic based ont these religions!

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
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ICQ# 4055455

Message no. 62 A-E wrote:

> Most, maybe, but not all. Haven't you ever played
> the character who thinks only about now? Who cares
> only about effectiveness, about living through the
> next year, not the next decade? The kind of guy
> who, in the real world, takes methamphetamines
> before a B&E so he won't run down?

Actually, I encourage that sort of thing in the games I run. I've
had players play numerous addicted characters over the years. In the
current campaign, the group's face-man/negotiator/ex-spook has recently
become a methamphetamine freak. And who got him hooked on it? The
decker, who takes an occasional hit when he needs to be up all night
programming or finishing some custom electronics before a big run.
Either way, it makes for some great role-playing. If the player
gets into it, all sorts of interesting situations can come up.
I should point out, however, that I use different rules from those
found in Shadowtech (which were ridiculous, IMHO). I haven't read the M&M
rules yet, but the whole loss-of-Essence-for-addiction thing just rubs me
the wrong way. If anything that changes the fundamental chemical nature
of the brain causes Essence loss, then people with bipolar disorder will
eventually kill themselves by taking antidepressants. Dumb.

Marc

Message no. 63 Marc Renouf <renouf@********.com> writes:
> A-E wrote:
> > Most, maybe, but not all. Haven't you ever played
> > the character who thinks only about now?

I usually don't go to that extreme, but all of my characters
lack at least one aspect of common sense. The majority of them are
willing to do wild and reckless things of some sort, like install
cyberware (MBW may be really bad for you, but cyberware is bad too!),
take hard drugs, are more reckless in battle than necessary, etc. My
rationale is that I'd never do anything like that, but I'd also go
find a better career move than Shadowrunning, so who am I to judge?

If I were transplanted into the SR world and could get good at
it in time, I think a worthwhile goal would be to become the best damn
turtle in the Matrix you've ever seen. :) There's money in it, though
I'd need a good number of friends transplated as well to keep SOTA in
enough areas. Most other things fail miserably in the risk/reward
analysis.

> > Who cares
> > only about effectiveness, about living through the
> > next year, not the next decade? The kind of guy
> > who, in the real world, takes methamphetamines
> > before a B&E so he won't run down?
>
> Actually, I encourage that sort of thing in the games I run. I've
> had players play numerous addicted characters over the years. In the
> current campaign, the group's face-man/negotiator/ex-spook has recently
> become a methamphetamine freak. And who got him hooked on it? The
> decker, who takes an occasional hit when he needs to be up all night
> programming or finishing some custom electronics before a big run.

I admit to being a wuss. I usually stick to the more socially
acceptable drugs like heavy alcohol abuse, or even former heavy
alcohol abuse.

I really enjoyed performing alternative medicine on the other
characters when they asked for healing. (I convinced my GM that one
of my characters could create the equivalent of a medkit using herbal
concoctions. Paying rent sucked for that character though.)

> Either way, it makes for some great role-playing. If the player
> gets into it, all sorts of interesting situations can come up.

Yep, that's the biggest win. At the very least, you have
another default activity to attempt when there's a lull in the action.

Mark

Message no. 64 According to Bira, at 14:13 on 2 Dec 99, the word on the street was...

> From this bit of text, I understand that everyone acts normally
> in the first pass, then the wired character takes a "free" action,
> without subtracting nothing from his score. Then everyone subtracts 10
> from their score normally, and the combat proceeds according to the
> standard rules until the end of the whole turn (that is, Phase 0).

Thanks for helping prove that this paragraph is far too easy to interpret
in different ways :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 65 On Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:47:09 +0100
"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to Bira, at 14:13 on 2 Dec 99, the word on the street was...
>
> > From this bit of text, I understand that everyone acts normally
> > in the first pass, then the wired character takes a "free" action,
> > without subtracting nothing from his score. Then everyone subtracts 10
> > from their score normally, and the combat proceeds according to the
> > standard rules until the end of the whole turn (that is, Phase 0).
>
> Thanks for helping prove that this paragraph is far too easy to interpret
> in different ways :)

Anyway, that's how I'd do it. Maybe it seems more advantageous
to the "wired" PC, but if he went to the trouble of actually acquiring
the MBW 3 or 4 and installing it... :) .

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455

Message no. 66 From: Shane Hyde <chaff.editor@*****.net.nz>
<Snip>

>Anybody thought about what the toxicology of the atmosohere in 2060 would
.be doing to you lungs? What the acid rain is doing to your scalp? Whether
>this guy coming down the street is going to whip out a gun or a religious
>pamhlet? Life's too risky to go implanting heavy duty MBW systems to get
>the edge FOR THE SHORT TERM. I'd rather biff a few Offensive grenades and
>split. Gimmie longer legs, anyday.

PLEASE LET IT BE A GUN. Not the pamhlet... PLEASE!!!

<Snip>

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