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Message no. 1
From: gsw13@****.com gsw13@****.com
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 17:34:46 -0400
Firstly, sorry for forgetting a subject before.

There is no background because it is not a character, just an example of
a pretty bad loophole in SR2 and SR3. And now I will fill you in on how
this cheap little bugger can happen.

Use Sum-to-Ten or Point system: Get 30 attribute points and 1M nuyen.

Race: Human
Magic: None
Edges:
Exceptional Body
Exceptional Quickness
Lightning Reflexes 3
Starting attributes:
Bod: 7
Qck: 7
Str: 4
Chr: 3
Int: 6
Wil: 3
Cyberware:
Reaction Enhancer 6
Bioware:
Muscle Augmentation 4
Synaptic Accelerator 2
Suprathyroid
Enhanced Articulation

And you end up with the god of munchkins.
Bod: 7(8)
Qck: 7(12)
Str: 4(9)
Chr: 3
Int: 6
Wil: 3
Rea: 6(20)
Ini: 1(3)
Essence: 4.2
Body Index: 6.8

And in conclusion. I love bioware, don't think otherwise, but watch out
it is a major loophole. All the gear costs under 1M nuyen.

-God of Nothing

>>>>>(Yes but does that mean that I'm the God of nothingness or
that I'm not the God of anything at all)<<<<<
-God of Nothing <00:00:00/00-00-00>

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Message no. 2
From: Hamish Laws h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:05:06 +1000
At 05:34 PM 5/30/99 -0400, gsw13@****.com wrote:
>Firstly, sorry for forgetting a subject before.
>
>There is no background because it is not a character, just an example of
>a pretty bad loophole in SR2 and SR3. And now I will fill you in on how
>this cheap little bugger can happen.
>
>Use Sum-to-Ten or Point system: Get 30 attribute points and 1M nuyen.
>
>Race: Human
>Magic: None
>Edges:
> Exceptional Body
> Exceptional Quickness
> Lightning Reflexes 3
>Starting attributes:
> Bod: 7
> Qck: 7
> Str: 4
> Chr: 3
> Int: 6
> Wil: 3
>Cyberware:
> Reaction Enhancer 6
>Bioware

listed as not available to starting character. If the GM gives permission
you can have it but then again if the GM gives permission you can have a
great dragon.

Also note that Bioware is not yet released in SR3. It will apparently be
heavily changed.

> Muscle Augmentation 4
> Synaptic Accelerator 2
> Suprathyroid
> Enhanced Articulation
>
>And you end up with the god of munchkins.
> Bod: 7(8)
> Qck: 7(12)
> Str: 4(9)
> Chr: 3
> Int: 6
> Wil: 3
> Rea: 6(20)
> Ini: 1(3)
> Essence: 4.2
> Body Index: 6.8
>
>And in conclusion. I love bioware, don't think otherwise, but watch out
>it is a major loophole. All the gear costs under 1M nuyen.

Street index....

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:13:42 +1000
Hamish Laws wrote:
> >And in conclusion. I love bioware, don't think otherwise, but watch out
> >it is a major loophole. All the gear costs under 1M nuyen.
>
> Street index....

Hmm... a fill in the blank question. The answer, of course, is "does not
apply at character creation time".

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 4
From: Bob Tockley arkham@*******.com.au
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:19:51 +1000
>Use Sum-to-Ten or Point system: Get 30 attribute points and 1M nuyen.
>
>Race: Human
>Magic: None
>Edges:
> Exceptional Body
> Exceptional Quickness
> Lightning Reflexes 3
>Starting attributes:
> Bod: 7
> Qck: 7
> Str: 4
> Chr: 3
> Int: 6
> Wil: 3
>Cyberware:
> Reaction Enhancer 6
>Bioware:
> Muscle Augmentation 4
> Synaptic Accelerator 2
> Suprathyroid
> Enhanced Articulation
>
>And you end up with the god of munchkins.
> Bod: 7(8)
> Qck: 7(12)
> Str: 4(9)
> Chr: 3
> Int: 6
> Wil: 3
> Rea: 6(20)
> Ini: 1(3)
> Essence: 4.2
> Body Index: 6.8
>
>And in conclusion. I love bioware, don't think otherwise, but watch out
>it is a major loophole. All the gear costs under 1M nuyen.

It's not a major loophole. Pay attention to the Edges and Flaws. In order
to get a Body and Quickness that high you have to pay an extra four Edge
Points (cost of the Exceptional Attribute alone is two points plus it costs
two points to increase the Attribute to the new maximum). Note that it
does NOT say you can use Attribute points to cover this cost so it looks
like Mr. Munchkin is going to be Flawed. You'll also need to pay an
additional two Edge points in order to get that bioware.

As for being the god of munchkins, well you're going to have to try a LOT
harder. You're only barely min-maxing there.
Message no. 5
From: Damon Harper nomad74@*******.com
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 17:32:09 PDT
[snip]
> >And you end up with the god of munchkins.
> > Bod: 7(8)
> > Qck: 7(12)
> > Str: 4(9)
> > Chr: 3
> > Int: 6
> > Wil: 3
> > Rea: 6(20)
> > Ini: 1(3)
> > Essence: 4.2
> > Body Index: 6.8
> >
[snip]
>As for being the god of munchkins, well you're going to have to try a LOT
>harder. You're only barely min-maxing there.

Yeah, no kidding. Willpower 3? Can you say "Spell-bait", boys and girls?
I knew ya could... <g>


-Damon Harper
"I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only
regret I have was that I didn't study Latin harder in
school so I could converse with those people."
-J. Danforth Quayle
________________________________________________________
<nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>




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Message no. 6
From: Kate . liliths_childe@*******.com
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 01:33:10 GMT
>[snip]
>> >And you end up with the god of munchkins.
>> > Bod: 7(8)
>> > Qck: 7(12)
>> > Str: 4(9)
>> > Chr: 3
>> > Int: 6
>> > Wil: 3
>> > Rea: 6(20)
>> > Ini: 1(3)
>> > Essence: 4.2
>> > Body Index: 6.8
>> >
>[snip]
>>As for being the god of munchkins, well you're going to have to try a LOT
>>harder. You're only barely min-maxing there.
>
> Yeah, no kidding. Willpower 3? Can you say "Spell-bait", boys and
>girls?
> I knew ya could... <g>

Yep, especially with my favorite spell: Influence...

I love permanent, mind-fucking spells. They're so juicy.

Love,

Kate


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Message no. 7
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 19:02:39 -0700 (PDT)
One point, bubba.

<Snipples(TM)>
> > Lightning Reflexes 3
<Snippola(TM)>

Read SR3 Companion. Lightning Reflexes no longer effects Reaction.
Personally, I think it never did, but it was written sufficiently
vaguely that you could argue it did. No longer.

Btw, if you really want to munchkinise, go the wired reflexes or
move-by-wire. Synaptic accelerators are tasty in that they don't show
up on cyber scanners, but they're duds as far as reaction enhancing
goes.

*Doc' remembers the good old days when he first started Shadowrun and
he thought that characters could buy extra essence. "It was the GM's
fault, dammit!"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 8
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 21:06:24 -0500
On Sun, 30 May 1999 19:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Rand Ratinac
<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
>*Doc' remembers the good old days when he first started Shadowrun and
>he thought that characters could buy extra essence. "It was the GM's
>fault, dammit!"*

You can ... how much was it to play a Shaper? (8 Essence, doncha know)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:04:38 -0700 (PDT)
> >*Doc' remembers the good old days when he first started Shadowrun
and he thought that characters could buy extra essence. "It was the
GM's fault, dammit!"*
>
> You can ... how much was it to play a Shaper? (8 Essence, doncha
know)
> D. Ghost

Not exactly. I still fondly (*sound of sputtering laughter*) recall one
character (he didn't last long :) ), who had a base essence of 24 (the
GM let us buy essence with karma) and finished up with an essence of
6.75 after buying all his cyberware.

He was an elf, but he weighed more than a troll. :)

*Doc' lol about that guy now..."Lordy, NOTHING could touch me..."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 10
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:41:24 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] Not exactly. I still fondly (*sound of sputtering laughter*) recall one
] character (he didn't last long :) ), who had a base essence of 24 (the
] GM let us buy essence with karma) and finished up with an essence of
] 6.75 after buying all his cyberware.
]
] He was an elf, but he weighed more than a troll. :)

Yeah...I had a player who tried to make an Adept...he didn't quite
understand the rules for allocating Power Points, confusing them with
Force points. He ended up with 50 points of Adept powers ("Are there
any more powers? I still have points to spend!"). Very nice character
until the GM noticed.

-Murder of One
Message no. 11
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:32:24 EDT
In a message dated 5/30/1999 10:42:52 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

>
> Yeah...I had a player who tried to make an Adept...he didn't quite
> understand the rules for allocating Power Points, confusing them with
> Force points. He ended up with 50 points of Adept powers ("Are there
> any more powers? I still have points to spend!"). Very nice character
> until the GM noticed.

<K just sits there quietly staring at the screen, trying, desperately trying,
to imagine what that character must have looked like..."yes, I'll take
Thermographic Vision; Enhanced Sense with Ultra-Galactic Binocular Vision
Level 10 please...">
Message no. 12
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@****.com
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:58:55 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: <Ereskanti@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: Munchkinism (Here's How)


> In a message dated 5/30/1999 10:42:52 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:
>
> >
> > Yeah...I had a player who tried to make an Adept...he didn't quite
> > understand the rules for allocating Power Points, confusing them with
> > Force points. He ended up with 50 points of Adept powers ("Are there
> > any more powers? I still have points to spend!"). Very nice character
> > until the GM noticed.
>
> <K just sits there quietly staring at the screen, trying, desperately
trying,
> to imagine what that character must have looked like..."yes, I'll take
> Thermographic Vision; Enhanced Sense with Ultra-Galactic Binocular Vision
> Level 10 please...">

And imagine all of the points into the armor ability.. "Yes sir.. that is
right.. yes sir it was a sherman tank.. what.. oh I think it was 75
tons.. Umm no sir.. Uhhu.. well sir he is asking for a glass of tea."

The man of steel.. unless shot.

Josh
Message no. 13
From: Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Mon, 31 May 99 03:48:26 -0400
On 5/30/99 11:41 pm, Scott Wheelock said:

>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
>] Not exactly. I still fondly (*sound of sputtering laughter*) recall one
>] character (he didn't last long :) ), who had a base essence of 24 (the
>] GM let us buy essence with karma) and finished up with an essence of
>] 6.75 after buying all his cyberware.
>]
>] He was an elf, but he weighed more than a troll. :)
>
> Yeah...I had a player who tried to make an Adept...he didn't quite
>understand the rules for allocating Power Points, confusing them with
>Force points. He ended up with 50 points of Adept powers ("Are there
>any more powers? I still have points to spend!"). Very nice character
>until the GM noticed.
>
>-Murder of One
>
>
>
That's ok I had a player who's character had 34 Essence worth of Cyber in
him and 14 Body worth of Bio. No we weren't making the mistake of
thinking you could buy extra essence either, He was just cheating. He was
supposedly a Decker and when one of the Sams in the party came to me and
complained that the decker was better than him in every combat stat I
looked at the character. Needless to say he died instantly. The player
was not allowed to touch his character sheet after that. The worst thing
is this guy didn't even have the excuse of being young or in experienced.
He was pushing 40 and had been playing RPG's since the late 70's. He was
such a bad munchkin that he was nearly banned for life from RPGA events
at cons for cheating on his living city character (he had more xp's than
was physically possible and magic items that had never been given out in
any Living City Event).

Steve
Message no. 14
From: Cybertroll cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:37:25 +0300
Damon Harper wrote:
>
> Yeah, no kidding. Willpower 3? Can you say "Spell-bait", boys and
girls?
> I knew ya could... <g>
>

Yes I can :

Willpower 3... :-PP
Terrible mistake... this character can't stand even a few secs in a
serious combat that involves mages. Even the smallest and weakest mana
spell can blow him into nothingless. Willpower 6 is essential in
shadowrun (actually it is essential in most RPG games :-)) ). That's why
all my Trolls have Intelligence of 1 and Willpower of 6 when I create
them :-))) (ok I know it is a bit of a munchkin but what the hell, I
need to survive :-))) ).

Cybertroll

--
E-Mail : cybertroll@********.gr
ICQ# : 7483400 but u have to beg to get my authorization!! :-)))
Homepage: http://www.crosswinds.net/athens/~cybertroll - WOA Photos!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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U'll find the servers in http://www.othernet.org or in
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Message no. 15
From: Geoff Skellams geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:45:12 +1000
On shadowrn@*********.org, Steve Collins[SMTP:einan@*********.net]
wrote:
> He was pushing 40 and had been playing RPG's since the late 70's. He
was
> such a bad munchkin that he was nearly banned for life from RPGA
events
> at cons for cheating on his living city character (he had more xp's
than
> was physically possible and magic items that had never been given out
in
> any Living City Event).

That is truly scary; Living City events were DESIGNED for munchkin
power-gamers. Shit they even MAKE you add STAT points when you go up
levels. They ruined my perfectly good senile gnome cleric by doing that
:( Having someone cheat is just beyond me.

At least the RPGA's Virtual Seattle SR campaign is marginally better.
Not much, but a bit :)

G

--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

Hili hewa ka mana'o ke 'ole ke kukakuka
(Ideas run wild without discussion)
Message no. 16
From: Hamish Laws h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:11:55 +1000
At 10:13 AM 5/31/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
>Hamish Laws wrote:
>> >And in conclusion. I love bioware, don't think otherwise, but watch out
>> >it is a major loophole. All the gear costs under 1M nuyen.
>>
>> Street index....
>
>Hmm... a fill in the blank question. The answer, of course, is "does not
>apply at character creation time".
>
And Shadowtech says that Bioware is not available at character creation
time...

Hence street index affects the cost of Bioware that a PC can have.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 17
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:26:55 -0700 (PDT)
> >> >And in conclusion. I love bioware, don't think
> otherwise, but watch out
> >> >it is a major loophole. All the gear costs under
> 1M nuyen.
> >>
> >> Street index....
> >
> >Hmm... a fill in the blank question. The answer, of
> course, is "does not
> >apply at character creation time".
> >
> And Shadowtech says that Bioware is not available at
> character creation
> time...
>
> Hence street index affects the cost of Bioware that
> a PC can have.
> Hamish Laws

You're working off a flawed premise there, Hamish. If bioware isn't
allowed at character creation, then the character being discussed
simply cannot exists, because he's a starting character with bioware.

Anyway, you CAN get bioware at character creation now for a couple of
reasons. Firstly, your GM could allow it. As a GM, I would and do. Why?
Because Shadowtech is set in 2052 IIRC (early 2050's at any rate). The
reason WHY Shadowtech says bioware isn't allowed at character creation
is that at the point of time that it was published, bioware was a very
new, very hard to get invention. (Anyway, I just thought Shadowtech
RECOMMENDED that starting characters shouldn't have it - beside the
point though.) If you want to be realistic, by 2056 or '57, let alone
by 2060, bioware's been around for years and it should be relatively
common now, and thus available to starting characters. Come to think of
it, it should also be cheaper, probably - bioware is no longer
experimental and cutting edge, which was why it was so expensive in the
first place. (Of course, you could subscribe to the view that you're
getting the latest models, which are more expensive, or something like
that.)

Second reason - you can buy the SOTA edge, which allows you to buy
better cyber AND bioware.

So that character MAY have to take a few more flaws, but he CAN start
off with bioware, which means he doesn't have to pay street index,
which means he's feasible again.

Munchkin away...

*Doc' wonders if he can get a cyberweapon implant (twin cylinder
revolver) installed in his groin. "Just call me Sex Machine!!"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 18
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 03:40:18 EDT
In a message dated 6/2/99 12:23:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> Munchkin away...
>
> *Doc' wonders if he can get a cyberweapon implant (twin cylinder
> revolver) installed in his groin. "Just call me Sex Machine!!"

Oh golly gee shure ya can now... If you also bought the golly gee Mr Studd.
Gives a whole new meaning to the term shooting your wad, don't cha know...
Message no. 19
From: Hamish Laws h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:36:28 +1000
At 12:26 AM 6/2/99 -0700, Rand Ratinac wrote:
>> >> >And in conclusion. I love bioware, don't think
>> otherwise, but watch out
>> >> >it is a major loophole. All the gear costs under
>> 1M nuyen.
>> >>
>> >> Street index....
>> >
>> >Hmm... a fill in the blank question. The answer, of
>> course, is "does not
>> >apply at character creation time".
>> >
>> And Shadowtech says that Bioware is not available at
>> character creation
>> time...
>>
>> Hence street index affects the cost of Bioware that
>> a PC can have.
>> Hamish Laws
>
>You're working off a flawed premise there, Hamish. If bioware isn't
>allowed at character creation, then the character being discussed
>simply cannot exists, because he's a starting character with bioware.

Which I put in the original post I made in the thread


Bioware
"listed as not available to starting character. If the GM gives permission
you can have it but then again if the GM gives permission you can have a
great dragon.

Also note that Bioware is not yet released in SR3. It will apparently be
heavily changed."

>
>Anyway, you CAN get bioware at character creation now for a couple of
>reasons. Firstly, your GM could allow it.

Which I said, but it means that the character is not "book-legal" as claimed.

> As a GM, I would and do. Why?
>Because Shadowtech is set in 2052 IIRC (early 2050's at any rate). The
>reason WHY Shadowtech says bioware isn't allowed at character creation
>is that at the point of time that it was published, bioware was a very
>new, very hard to get invention. (Anyway, I just thought Shadowtech
>RECOMMENDED that starting characters shouldn't have it - beside the
>point though.) If you want to be realistic, by 2056 or '57, let alone
>by 2060, bioware's been around for years and it should be relatively
>common now, and thus available to starting characters.

I dunno, it depends a lot on what is causing the cost. If there's inherent
high cost in making the stuff and needs high technology it could stay high
priced...

> Come to think of
>it, it should also be cheaper, probably - bioware is no longer
>experimental and cutting edge, which was why it was so expensive in the
>first place. (Of course, you could subscribe to the view that you're
>getting the latest models, which are more expensive, or something like
>that.)
>
>Second reason - you can buy the SOTA edge, which allows you to buy
>better cyber AND bioware.
>
>So that character MAY have to take a few more flaws, but he CAN start
>off with bioware, which means he doesn't have to pay street index,
>which means he's feasible again.

With GMs permission, which I stated.

In any case 3rd ed rules don't support Bioware yet and apparently things
are going to be changed a fair bit for bioware...

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 20
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:23:28 -0500
> >> And Shadowtech says that Bioware is not available at
> >> character creation time...
> >
> >You're working off a flawed premise there, Hamish. If bioware isn't
> >allowed at character creation, then the character being discussed
> >simply cannot exists, because he's a starting character with bioware.
>
> Which I put in the original post I made in the thread

Okay, maybe it's just because I came in late after my recent unfortunate
email frag-up, or maybe it's because I have a job interview in about eight
hours and I really oughta be in bed, or maybe I'm just a bonehead.

In any case, I can't seem to find a citation in SHADOWTECH that says bioware
isn't available at chargen. I don't suppose you'd be willing to cite
chapter and verse for a senile coot like me, would you?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

Further Reading

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