Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:22:40 +0200
> >>Any one know of any good mapping software?
> >
> >I just draw my players a map by hand when they are just getting
someplace,
> >but it does give a nice touch when you have a printed map for when they
> >actually get a map...either from the Johnson or from a decker run.

> Worked out pretty well too. Especially when the decker hacks a
> system to get a blueprint and you can actually pull one out.

Hey,

I am very very new to this list, and I am also very very new to
Shadowrunning (about 5 weeks of GM'ing behind me now). I have of course a
million-and-one questions,...but they are all swirling through my mind.
The first one being; the NAV-DAT GPS (p. 294, SR3 sourcebook, street gear
chapter), can that be used for a person, or is it singly rigger material
(for use in a car or plane, etc.)? And if you can use it for a person, let's
say as an attachment to your headmemory, could you use it for the
aforementioned maps gotten from Johnson in a run?
I would see the B&E specialist crawling through the ventilation ducts,
meanwhile having the blueprint of the building in a NAV-DAT GPS format being
projected through an image link on his or her retina, while the GPS side of
things constantly portray where the runner is represented by a red blip on
the map.

Dennis Steinmeijer

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 2
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:38:55 -0400
:At 11:22 AM 6/24/99 , Dennis Steinmeijer wrote:
>I am very very new to this list, and I am also very very new to
>Shadowrunning (about 5 weeks of GM'ing behind me now). I have of course a
>million-and-one questions,...but they are all swirling through my mind.
>The first one being; the NAV-DAT GPS (p. 294, SR3 sourcebook, street gear
>chapter), can that be used for a person, or is it singly rigger material
>(for use in a car or plane, etc.)? And if you can use it for a person, let's
>say as an attachment to your headmemory, could you use it for the
>aforementioned maps gotten from Johnson in a run?

The GPS listed in SR3 is a handheld model, although it can be used in a car
or plane by having it installed. Personally,I would say that the cost is
for any GPS unit, and that the rigger model is made as a component to put
in the electrical system. Although now that I think about it, you might
want to check out autopilots to see if the higher ranked ones already have GPS.

Any GPS unit already has maps built into it, and can be periodically
updated with a new memory flash card. If you could get a building map, and
format it to be accepted by the GPS, it should work okay.

Generally a GPS is about the size of a Palm Pilot, so wouldn't be good for
headware. You can use it in a cyberarm, however, and get a cybernetic link
to it. Rules for modifying gear like that is in Cybertechnology and is
either in SR3 or will be in Man and Machine.

The other option is to simply load a building blueprint into headware
memory and look at it using a datalink. There won't be a little GPS mark
saying "You are here" but you can follow the map the same way that you woul
if you had a hardcopy. It just won't bein the way.

>I would see the B&E specialist crawling through the ventilation ducts,
>meanwhile having the blueprint of the building in a NAV-DAT GPS format being
>projected through an image link on his or her retina, while the GPS side of
>things constantly portray where the runner is represented by a red blip on
>the map.

Good idea, but it would need a little more work than you're originally
guessing. With the other stuff above you could get it to work. I did for a
character a few years ago with a swiss army cyberarm.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 3
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:41:45 -0700 (PDT)
On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:38:55 -0400, Sommers wrote:

>Generally a GPS is about the size of a Palm Pilot, so wouldn't be good for
>headware. You can use it in a cyberarm, however, and get a cybernetic link
>to it. Rules for modifying gear like that is in Cybertechnology and is
>either in SR3 or will be in Man and Machine.

The japanese are now selling a wrist watch that also includes a fully functional GPS unit.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 4
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:52:49 -0500
:I am very very new to this list, and I am also very very new to
:Shadowrunning (about 5 weeks of GM'ing behind me now). I have of course a
:million-and-one questions,...but they are all swirling through my mind.
:The first one being; the NAV-DAT GPS (p. 294, SR3 sourcebook, street gear
:chapter), can that be used for a person, or is it singly rigger material
:(for use in a car or plane, etc.)? And if you can use it for a person,
let's
:say as an attachment to your headmemory, could you use it for the
:aforementioned maps gotten from Johnson in a run?

Yes, it is totally man portable; these are available toaday. The SR
version is somewhat more precise and has more advanced features (mapping
capbilty), but that's easy, give SR level technical advances. Of course, 60
years from now, there are likely different GPS satalites (and thus signals)
in use...

:I would see the B&E specialist crawling through the ventilation ducts,
:meanwhile having the blueprint of the building in a NAV-DAT GPS format
being
:projected through an image link on his or her retina, while the GPS side of
:things constantly portray where the runner is represented by a red blip on
:the map.
:Dennis Steinmeijer


Good use, except that GPS satellite positioning signals don't penetrate
buildings so well. The map would still be handy, if accurate / detailed.
What you really want is Shadowtech's "Orientation System" cyberware, which
can both create a map based on user input, and track position via "dead
reckoning" based of user body motion, etc. That would work inside and in
unknown areas- and it accepts and processes mapchip input. While this could
be done externally, it would take more than just a NAV-DAT GPS.
Orientation System cyberware should be covered in "Man and Machine", a
tech book for SR3 that updates older books like Shadowtech and
Cybertechnology. MaM will be out "3rd quarter '99", meaning sometime in
September.

Mongoose
Message no. 5
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:05:29 -0400
At 12:41 PM 6/24/99 , Oliver McDonald wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:38:55 -0400, Sommers wrote:
>
>>Generally a GPS is about the size of a Palm Pilot, so wouldn't be good for
>>headware. You can use it in a cyberarm, however, and get a cybernetic link
>>to it. Rules for modifying gear like that is in Cybertechnology and is
>>either in SR3 or will be in Man and Machine.
>
>The japanese are now selling a wrist watch that also includes a fully
>functional GPS unit.

Yeah, there's always the 10 percent per year rule to watch out for. The
problem with that is, unless that wrist watch has a built in holographic
projector in it, how are you going to be able to see anythign on the map?
You can have it give verbal directions, but a unit the size of the Palm
Pilot is small enough to put in a big pocket or on a belt clip but still
big enough that you can actually use the screen on it.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 6
From: lomion lomion@*********.escnd1.sdca.home.com
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:12:33 -0700
>
>
> Good use, except that GPS satellite positioning signals don't penetrate
>buildings so well.

This is not always so, I was in a mall about a year and a half-ago and was
using a GPS fine, didn't give me any problems with signal penetration. I'd
say it depends on the building. Look at cell phones, many malls now have
their own cell sites built on the mall to aid in reception. Something like
that would only increase in the near future.
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:30:01 +0200
According to Dennis Steinmeijer, at 17:22 on 24 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> The first one being; the NAV-DAT GPS (p. 294, SR3 sourcebook, street gear
> chapter), can that be used for a person, or is it singly rigger material
> (for use in a car or plane, etc.)?

It's a hand-held model, much like the ones you can buy nowadays for a few
hundred dollars. You can tell by the Concealability rating of 8 --
equivalent to about a packet of cigarettes, IMHO.

Of course, you could stick it to your car's dashboard with double-sided
tape and call it a vehicle accessory... :)

> And if you can use it for a person, let's say as an attachment to your
> headmemory, could you use it for the aforementioned maps gotten from
> Johnson in a run?

I'd say yes. It has a mapping function, so if the maps you have are in a
format that the GPS device can use, you could put them into the thing and
use them. Of course, you would need to know the scale of the maps and at
least one coordinate on them for that to work.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:28:31 -0500
:>Generally a GPS is about the size of a Palm Pilot, so wouldn't be good for
:>headware. You can use it in a cyberarm, however, and get a cybernetic link
:>to it. Rules for modifying gear like that is in Cybertechnology and is
:>either in SR3 or will be in Man and Machine.
:
:The japanese are now selling a wrist watch that also includes a fully
functional GPS unit.


The unit in SR3 is described as working with a datajack, so linking its
output to an image link is pretty trivial. No headware memory needed, as it
stores its own maps. Enhance your performance by hanging dangly wires off
your skull, and look Cyberpunk doing it...

Mongoose
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:50:31 -0500
:> Good use, except that GPS satellite positioning signals don't
penetrate
:>buildings so well.
:
:This is not always so, I was in a mall about a year and a half-ago and was
:using a GPS fine, didn't give me any problems with signal penetration. I'd
:say it depends on the building. Look at cell phones, many malls now have
:their own cell sites built on the mall to aid in reception. Something like
:that would only increase in the near future.


Many malls are glorified warehouses- the signal only had to go through
the roof. I meant more of the "underground / crawl through ventilation"
type penetration.
I don't think you can build repeaters for GPS signals into your
building, like with cell phones- the whole point is to get a signal from a
satellite with a known position. You could use some other technology
(loran, for a real life example, or maybe some tie-in to gridlink for a SR
example), but that would not, by definition, be use of Global Positioning
Satellites. ;-)

Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:32:28 -0400
At 13.05 06-24-99 -0400, you wrote:
>problem with that is, unless that wrist watch has a built in holographic
>projector in it, how are you going to be able to see anythign on the map?

GPS misconception number 1: GPS tells you were you are.

While this exactly true, a lot of people think that this means that it
includes a map. It does not. A global positioning system unit ONLY telles
you your co-ordinants. If you don't have map, that data is basically
worthless. Good ones can store a sketch of way-points in the form of a
line diagram, but they can't tell you that fifty meter wide river, a 100m
meter near-verticle climb and ten klicks of march are between you and where
you want to be.
While there are units that merge GPS to maps, they require that the map be
loaded into thier computer, usually in the form of a CD, and require a
laptop, vehilce mounted PC, or dedicated system to be connected to a GPS
reciever.
CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://www.Geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 11
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:32:56 -0400
At 11.52 06-24-99 -0500, you wrote:
>What you really want is Shadowtech's "Orientation System" cyberware, which
<snip>
>unknown areas- and it accepts and processes mapchip input. While this could
>be done externally, it would take more than just a NAV-DAT GPS.

Why not have a non-cyber version of this? What you would need is an
eletronic compass, a pedometer (or whatever they call those things that
joggers use to determine how far they've gone), and electronic level
mounted to a computer. The computer keeps track of your angle of motion,
angle of incline, and distance traveled, and gives youn idea of how far
you've gone from your point of origion, either in gross travel or net
distance. Mate it to a mapchip, a KNOWN point of origion and you're set.
The only dificulty I see is with things like ladders, verticle
climbs/decends and stairs, where your verticle travel is entirely up and
down, and that could be done with some kind of shock meter and/or
acceleratometer (sp) (OK, so it only works with fast decends), or a
barometric system.
This is basically the same thing as the older inertial guidnace systems
used in aircraft.

BTW, has anyone made up GPS headware?




CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://www.Geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 12
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:39:07 +0200
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0067_01BEBEDD.CEB87EC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

IronRaven wrote:
> BTW, has anyone made up GPS headware?

This is what I considered when I posted the original question about NAV-DAT GPS. A cybered
version, where you could hook it up to your cybereyes and watch the maps through an image
link.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."

------=_NextPart_000_0067_01BEBEDD.CEB87EC0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"
http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#a0a0a4>
<DIV><FONT size=2>IronRaven wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>&gt; BTW, has anyone made up GPS
headware?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>This is what I considered when I posted the original
question
about NAV-DAT GPS. A cybered version, where you could hook it up to your
cybereyes and watch the maps through an image link.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=2>Dennis</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=2>"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how
awful Goodness
is..."</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0067_01BEBEDD.CEB87EC0--
Message no. 13
From: JonSzeto@***.com JonSzeto@***.com
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:04:55 EDT
Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu> wrote,

> The GPS listed in SR3 is a handheld model, although it can be used in a car
> or plane by having it installed. Personally,I would say that the cost is
> for any GPS unit, and that the rigger model is made as a component to put
> in the electrical system. Although now that I think about it, you might
> want to check out autopilots to see if the higher ranked ones already have
GPS.

They do. Level 3 and higher Autonavs automatically incorporate GPS as
part of their systems. Level 2 and higher also incorporate various forms
of inertial dead-reckoning as well. This is covered in Rigger 2, BTW, p.
123.

> Any GPS unit already has maps built into it, and can be periodically
> updated with a new memory flash card. If you could get a building map, and
> format it to be accepted by the GPS, it should work okay.

As IronRaven pointed out, that ain't necessarily so. All GPS does is
determine your position by "listening" for at least three satellite
transponder signals (each transmitting a different code) and then using
triangulation to determine where on earth you are. Most GPS receivers in
use presently only give you a grid coordinate (either in lat/long, UTM,
or military grid), azimuth (either in degrees or mils), and time (local
or GMT, AM/PM or 24-hour, whichever you prefer). I'm not aware of any
present day system that will cross-check a grid with a computer-stored
map, though I'm sure such an option would be "standard" come SR-time.

One other bit of trivia about GPS: GPS satellites have a "built-in"
random uncertainty factor in them that throws off the accuracy of
regular GPS, by a factor of anywhere from 10-100 meters, maybe even
more. This is to prevent the "bad guys" (smugglers, terrorists, etc.)
from using GPS to their advantage (for example, building a crude
precision-guided munition). GPS satellites also broadcast the
"correction factor" on an encrypted signal that can normally be
decrypted only by military receivers (such as PLGR). The "random
uncertainty" can also be turned off for some/all satellites in times of
national crisis. (This was, in fact, done during Desert Shield/Storm.)

-- Jon
Message no. 14
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:55:19 -0400
At 07.04 06-25-99 EDT, you wrote:
>or GMT, AM/PM or 24-hour, whichever you prefer). I'm not aware of any
>present day system that will cross-check a grid with a computer-stored

They do exist, but they are all hardwired into aircraft or ships. I've
seen them in a couple of helicopters. To build one that is more versitile,
you literally need a linkable GPs module, a parrallel cable, a labtop, the
right interfacing software, and a CD of maps.
Actually, I was incorrect in stating that none of them project maps. I
understand that the navigation system that is in some of the new Caddies
can download maps via a cell modem. HOwever, that option costs a few
thousand, compaired to a hundred dollars for a budget priced model
(1993-era technology, with way point mapping and compass capabilites) or
~$US170 for one that can do thinks like talk to a computer, holds LOTS of
waypoints, can do altitiute and a number of other things.

>regular GPS, by a factor of anywhere from 10-100 meters, maybe even
>more. This is to prevent the "bad guys" (smugglers, terrorists, etc.)

Big deal. Just send a couple of them, or use non-explosive weapons.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://www.Geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 15
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:35:21 -0400
At 07:04 AM 6/25/99 , JonSzeto@***.com wrote:
>Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu> wrote,
>> Any GPS unit already has maps built into it, and can be periodically
>> updated with a new memory flash card. If you could get a building map, and
>> format it to be accepted by the GPS, it should work okay.
>
>As IronRaven pointed out, that ain't necessarily so. All GPS does is
>determine your position by "listening" for at least three satellite
>transponder signals (each transmitting a different code) and then using
>triangulation to determine where on earth you are. Most GPS receivers in
>use presently only give you a grid coordinate (either in lat/long, UTM,
>or military grid), azimuth (either in degrees or mils), and time (local
>or GMT, AM/PM or 24-hour, whichever you prefer). I'm not aware of any
>present day system that will cross-check a grid with a computer-stored
>map, though I'm sure such an option would be "standard" come SR-time.

Sorry, I was in a hurry and didn't type out as much as I should. Standard
GPS units will give you coordinates in the version of your choice. But,
some new models (like the one in the high end Lexus cars) have mapping
software embedded in them that are laid out in those same map coordinates.
So when you get a GPS lock for your location, the system then looks through
all of its maps and finds that corresponding spot on one of its maps and
projects it on the screen. The one that I've seen will figure out where you
are, ask you where you want to go, and plot a course. Once a year you are
entitled to a free map upgrade chip installed. Which is a good thing, if
you've ever heard the story of the German couple with one of these and a
map that showed a bridge in front of them instead of a ferry...

I've been doing a lot of work with space based GPS sats lately, and all of
the ones I've seen need at least 4 to lock on and get coordinates. I'm not
sure if that's a function of the environment or not, but I did think that
it required 4 for good accuracy even on the ground. How well it penetrates
into a building is another story. I haven't tried it myself, but I have
seen one work in a tunnel under a mountain.

>One other bit of trivia about GPS: GPS satellites have a "built-in"
>random uncertainty factor in them that throws off the accuracy of
>regular GPS, by a factor of anywhere from 10-100 meters, maybe even
>more. This is to prevent the "bad guys" (smugglers, terrorists, etc.)
>from using GPS to their advantage (for example, building a crude
>precision-guided munition). GPS satellites also broadcast the
>"correction factor" on an encrypted signal that can normally be
>decrypted only by military receivers (such as PLGR). The "random
>uncertainty" can also be turned off for some/all satellites in times of
>national crisis. (This was, in fact, done during Desert Shield/Storm.)

Right. The standard GPS gets this long mathematical signal from the
satellites. It processes those and from there figures out coordinates. An
additional signal is sent by the satellites that throws these computations
off (I think US law requires 50 -100 meters, although it has been
dropping). Military units have a chip built in that filters out that
correction factor, so that they get the original computation. There are
also places where you can buy a bootleg chip to filter it out, almost the
polar opposite of a cable de-scrambler box.

The effectiveness of those GPS bombs became very apparent recently in
Yugoslavia. Very cheap to but on an iron bomb, as accurate as a laser
guided bomb or cruise missile, and thousands of them can be cranked out.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 16
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:25:48 EDT
In a message dated 6/25/99 4:06:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, JonSzeto@***.com
writes:

> Most GPS receivers in
> use presently only give you a grid coordinate (either in lat/long, UTM,
> or military grid), azimuth (either in degrees or mils), and time (local
> or GMT, AM/PM or 24-hour, whichever you prefer). I'm not aware of any
> present day system that will cross-check a grid with a computer-stored
> map, though I'm sure such an option would be "standard" come SR-time.

Yes, there are RW examples like this out there. Hertz installs a rig just
like this (GPS plus maps) in some of their rental cars under the brand name
"Neverlost" One of the Major car manufacturers was installing something
similar in one of their top scale lines in the next year or so.
Message no. 17
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:56:58 -0500
>In a message dated 6/25/99 4:06:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
JonSzeto@***.com
>writes:

>> Most GPS receivers in
>> use presently only give you a grid coordinate (either in lat/long, UTM,
>> or military grid), azimuth (either in degrees or mils), and time (local
>> or GMT, AM/PM or 24-hour, whichever you prefer). I'm not aware of any
>> present day system that will cross-check a grid with a computer-stored
>> map, though I'm sure such an option would be "standard" come SR-time.

>Yes, there are RW examples like this out there. Hertz installs a rig just
>like this (GPS plus maps) in some of their rental cars under the brand
name
>"Neverlost" One of the Major car manufacturers was installing something
>similar in one of their top scale lines in the next year or so.

For $150 you can get DeLorme's Map'N'Go or 3D Explorer software with a GPS
receiver that plugs into the seriel port of a computer... Works great on a
loptop. Shows your position on the map's provided by the software. The
GPS is a little smaller than a computer mouse.
Message no. 18
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:29:50 -0400
At 14.56 06-25-99 -0500, you wrote:
>For $150 you can get DeLorme's Map'N'Go or 3D Explorer software with a GPS

How much for the maps?


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://www.Geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 19
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:01:25 +0200
According to JonSzeto@***.com, at 7:04 on 25 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> I'm not aware of any present day system that will cross-check a grid
> with a computer-stored map, though I'm sure such an option would be
> "standard" come SR-time.

In SR3, the blurb for the GPS receiver that started this thread
specifically states it has a map display. It shouldn't be very difficult
to incorporate such a feature today, except possibly because of memory
limitations in a hand-held device; certainly a laptop with a GPS receiver
hooked up to it should be able to do it easily. All you'd need is the
scale of the map, which way is north on it, and the coordinates (etc.) of
one point on the map.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Kenneth Vinson kennethv@****.wisc.edu
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:13:10 -0500
Sommers wrote:

<snipped many lines of GPS discussion>

> Right. The standard GPS gets this long mathematical signal from the
> satellites. It processes those and from there figures out coordinates. An
> additional signal is sent by the satellites that throws these computations
> off (I think US law requires 50 -100 meters, although it has been
> dropping). Military units have a chip built in that filters out that
> correction factor, so that they get the original computation. There are
> also places where you can buy a bootleg chip to filter it out, almost the
> polar opposite of a cable de-scrambler box.
>
> The effectiveness of those GPS bombs became very apparent recently in
> Yugoslavia. Very cheap to but on an iron bomb, as accurate as a laser
> guided bomb or cruise missile, and thousands of them can be cranked out.
>
> Sommers
> Insert witty quote here.

I also happen to be doing some work with GPS receivers, from a meteorlogical
standpoint. The prof I'm working for is using specially configured GPS receivers
to measure the delay in the signal due to the atmosphere and then calculating how
much water vapor was along the signal path. What's this have to do with
anything, you ask? As Sommers pointed out above, the DoD doesn't want just
anybody to have high precision with their GPS satellites so they introduce a
fudge factor to keep the uncertaintly at ~100 meters. Those in the scientific
community, however, have not been satisfied with this situation and have bypassed
the scramble. The short of is that they use several GPS receivers at *fixed*
locations whose coordinates (lat, long) are very well known. Next, they have the
GPS receivers at the places where they want to take data recording. The GPS
receiver they have is configured to receive signals from both the satellites and
the fixed stations. By comparing the signals the receiver is able to reduce the
uncertainty from ~100 meters to, hold on to your hats, ~20 centimeters! This is
the kind of precision that they need to do their research so I'm certain of the
number. How does this apply to Shadowrun? Right now the tech and gear to do
what I just described costs around $15,000 and thus only corps and universities
can afford it. By 2060 I can only imagine that this sort of thing is commonplace
and available to the average Joe for no more than a couple thousand nuyen. Hope
this helps.

Cheers,

Ken Vinson
Message no. 21
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:00:04 EDT
In a message dated 6/28/99 12:08:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
kennethv@****.wisc.edu writes:

> How does this apply to Shadowrun? Right now the tech and gear to do
> what I just described costs around $15,000 and thus only corps and
> universities
> can afford it. By 2060 I can only imagine that this sort of thing is
> commonplace
> and available to the average Joe for no more than a couple thousand nuyen.

> Hope
> this helps.

This also does not take into account the fact that the military would have
had 70 years to develop another system for their own use and relased the GPS
system into general civilian use.
Message no. 22
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 08:32:04 -0400
At 02.13 06-28-99 -0500, you wrote:
>number. How does this apply to Shadowrun? Right now the tech and gear to

Easy. You know that laser-guided AV mortar shell in FoF? Well, if use
GPS with this kind of tightness, you just need a way to give the bomb the
cooridinants of the target at firing (BattleTac?). Bye-bye MobMaster

CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://www.Geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 23
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:51:41 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:13:10 -0500, Kenneth Vinson wrote:

>I also happen to be doing some work with GPS receivers, from a meteorlogical
>standpoint. The prof I'm working for is using specially configured GPS receivers
>to measure the delay in the signal due to the atmosphere and then calculating how
>much water vapor was along the signal path. What's this have to do with
>anything, you ask? As Sommers pointed out above, the DoD doesn't want just
>anybody to have high precision with their GPS satellites so they introduce a
>fudge factor to keep the uncertaintly at ~100 meters. Those in the scientific
>community, however, have not been satisfied with this situation and have bypassed
>the scramble. The short of is that they use several GPS receivers at *fixed*
>locations whose coordinates (lat, long) are very well known. Next, they have the
>GPS receivers at the places where they want to take data recording. The GPS
>receiver they have is configured to receive signals from both the satellites and
>the fixed stations. By comparing the signals the receiver is able to reduce the
>uncertainty from ~100 meters to, hold on to your hats, ~20 centimeters! This is
>the kind of precision that they need to do their research so I'm certain of the
>number. How does this apply to Shadowrun? Right now the tech and gear to do
>what I just described costs around $15,000 and thus only corps and universities
>can afford it. By 2060 I can only imagine that this sort of thing is commonplace
>and available to the average Joe for no more than a couple thousand nuyen. Hope
>this helps.

This is known as Differential GPS.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 24
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:59:28 -0500
>>For $150 you can get DeLorme's Map'N'Go or 3D Explorer software with a
GPS

> How much for the maps?

US, Parts of Canada and Mexico included
Message no. 25
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:55:51 -0700
From: Starrngr@***.com
Date sent: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:00:04 EDT
Subject: Re: NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software)
To: shadowrn@*********.org
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org

> In a message dated 6/28/99 12:08:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> kennethv@****.wisc.edu writes:
>
> > How does this apply to Shadowrun? Right now the tech and gear to do
> > what I just described costs around $15,000 and thus only corps and
> > universities
> > can afford it. By 2060 I can only imagine that this sort of thing is
> > commonplace
> > and available to the average Joe for no more than a couple thousand nuyen.
>
> > Hope
> > this helps.
>
> This also does not take into account the fact that the military would have
> had 70 years to develop another system for their own use and relased the GPS
> system into general civilian use.
>
The purpose behind the scrambled signal is to prevent anyone not on thier
"friends" list to use a civilian reciever for military tasks like artilery
spoting or
smart bombs or locating our secret bases. Even if the military develops
something better, the present system is good enough for effective use by the
"wrong hands".

Granted the "work arounds" discussed on the list have eliminated the
effectiveness of the scrambling, but that is not likely to cause the government
to stop scrambling the signal. What is more likely is a "ban" on the work
around. Consider satelite photos, US firms are limited by law in the resolution
they can use. This was to keep secret the goverments survalince capablity.
This continued even after a French firm and the Russian government began
marketing higher resolultion photos. Then there are the US laws on
encription...or how to convert a T shirt into a munition, but that is another
story.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about NAV-DAT GPS (was: Mapping Software), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!