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Message no. 1
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: New Spell question.
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 11:10:35 -0700
I had an Idea
and wanted to hear some comments about it.

SPELL...
Force Manifest.
Description. By means of this spell a spellcaster
causes an astral creature (only creatures that can
manifest), to manifest for a number of combat turn
equal to the number of (xtra) successes.

i.e.Billy the sorcer adept sees a earth elemental gurading
an entrance of an apartment. (from astral perception)
The elemental is rather large and he does not think
that can take him out by himself. So he decides to
try to get his friend to help. Jo Bob the Physical
adept prepares his +2 pitchfork weapon focus for the
fight as Billy (SorAdpt) cast his new spell
Force Manifest. Billy cast and gets 3 successes
the Elemental resists and only gets 2 successes.
(thus billy nets 1 success)
The Elemental is forced to manifest. (manifesting
in this way does not use services, but is considered
an act of agression, *in otherwords don't do it to
your spirits/elementals*)
Billy better hurry because he knows that they only
have one turn before the elemental goes back into
astral, and then they'll be in real trouble.

I haven't worked out the drain yet but I thought
I would ask what you think....


*comments desired*
Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 2
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:30:31 -0600
On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Gary Carroll wrote:

> ...Billy better hurry because he knows that they only
> have one turn before the elemental goes back into
> astral, and then they'll be in real trouble.
>
> I haven't worked out the drain yet but I thought
> I would ask what you think....

I like it! I've had a couple mage-players complain about not being able
to do anything against an elemental. This way, they feel like they can
do something, and it is also a creative way of diverting astral combat.

Let me know when you have the final work-up.

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes after an electrical storm I see in 5 dimensions. Why are the
sixty of you looking at me like that?"

--Cornfed, from _Duckman_
Message no. 3
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:03:03 -0400
>>>>> "John" == John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
writes:

John> I like it! I've had a couple mage-players complain about not being
John> able to do anything against an elemental.

Say what? They can always go after it in astral space.

John> This way, they feel like they can do something, and it is also a
John> creative way of diverting astral combat.

Except that you have to go astral in order to target a non-manifest
being with the spell. Kinda defeats the purpose, don't you think?

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ of skin.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 4
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:32:45 -0700
Gary writes:

>I had an Idea
>and wanted to hear some comments about it.
>
>SPELL...
>Force Manifest.
>Description. By means of this spell a spellcaster
>causes an astral creature (only creatures that can
>manifest), to manifest for a number of combat turn
>equal to the number of (xtra) successes.
>
>I haven't worked out the drain yet but I thought
>I would ask what you think....
>
Sounds intriguing to me. I can see how a Sorcer Adapt would have a
particular intrest in this spell. What TN are you looking at, and how have
you classified the spell (combat, manipulation)? Keep posting.

Enjoy.
Brian
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Message no. 5
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:22:21 -0700
John>> This way, they feel like they can do something, and it
John>> is also a creative way of diverting astral combat.

The Spell has several practical functions that I could
think of. 1) cast it at a spirit so non astrally
perceiving characters can help. 2) cast it on a spirit
that is trying to escape (sorry you can't go through
walls anymore) 3) cast it on a spirit to keep it from
chasing / following you. *you only need one round to
get out of sight*

Rat>Except that you have to go astral in order to target a
Rat>non-manifest being with the spell. Kinda defeats the
Rat>purpose, don't you think?

Well sometimes yes, but if you have conditions listed
above it could be very handy.
I guess you could cast it on an already manifested spirit
to keep it from returning to Astral space.
How about the inverse of the spell *Force Astral* now for a
spirit to return he has to use a power to manifest.
(now that would cost an extra favor) (doesn't do much for
free spirits though)

Brian>Sounds intriguing to me. I can see how a Sorcer Adapt
Brian>would have a particular intrest in this spell. What TN
Brian>are you looking at, and how have you classified the spell
Brian>(combat, manipulation)? Keep posting.

Well just off the top of my head I would have to say the force
of the spirit would be the TN# (target number). And he would
resist with It's base willpower (maybe his force).
*so it could be really hard.* but many spells are.
The classification would prob. fit best under manip.

Keep the comments flowing...
Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 6
From: Nika Nikolic <MNik@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 20:22:15 -0400
In a message dated 95-07-25 14:32:17 EDT, you write:

>On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Gary Carroll wrote:
>
>> ...Billy better hurry because he knows that they only
>> have one turn before the elemental goes back into
>> astral, and then they'll be in real trouble.
>>
>> I haven't worked out the drain yet but I thought
>> I would ask what you think....
>
>I like it! I've had a couple mage-players complain about not being able
>to do anything against an elemental. This way, they feel like they can
>do something, and it is also a creative way of diverting astral combat.
>
>Let me know when you have the final work-up.
>
>

cool spell gary. but john IV if your read the last SR bu Nyx Smith (god rest
his soul) you see that the shaman "Bandit" summons a familiar to battle a
manifested spirit so that's what your shamans/mages should do to combat them.
Message no. 7
From: Nika Nikolic <MNik@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 20:33:32 -0400
and i forgot to add that you must already be in astral form.:>)
Message no. 8
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 19:43:49 +1000
Gary writes:

> [Force Manifest spell]

Sounds like quite a nifty idea to me. Something the magician in my team
would probably jump for joy at getting (he's been scared silly of elementals
in astral space ever since one beat the snot out of him a couple of years
back, and no amount of "you wuss" from the other players can convince him to
hang round on the ethereal when there's a bad guy elemental nearby). I'd
rate it as a Manipulation spell, probably with a target number of Force, and
to be resisted by Force (incidently this is the same as a target number of
Willpower, since when elementals are on the astral their stats equal their
Force).

Brian A. Stewart writes:

> Sounds intriguing to me. I can see how a Sorcer Adapt would have a
> particular intrest in this spell. What TN are you looking at, and how have
> you classified the spell (combat, manipulation)? Keep posting.

I could see it being absolutely useless for a Sorcery adept myself. To cast
the spell one would need to be either perceiving or projecting onto the
astral plane (so's that one could identify and see the target). Sorcery
adepts can do neither.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 9
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 12:40:21 GMT
John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU> writes

> On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Gary Carroll wrote:
>
> > ...Billy better hurry because he knows that they only
> > have one turn before the elemental goes back into
> > astral, and then they'll be in real trouble.
>
> I like it! I've had a couple mage-players complain about not being able
> to do anything against an elemental. This way, they feel like they can
> do something, and it is also a creative way of diverting astral combat.
>
> Let me know when you have the final work-up.
>
interesting. I assume this is some sort of mind control, which in SR
would require that in be a sustained spell, and that needs astral
perception. However new spells that last time by successes but are
instants to cast are defendable (similar to how ED works and certain
critter powers).

The easiest answer to elementals is hit them with a force 6 damaging
manipulation, you need a fixed target 4, they don't have armour,
oops. Why mess about. Weapon focus quarterstaffs also work nicely but
are much more difficult to aquire/ get to required location, and as
someone suggested handing staffs to manifest elementals are a
solveable problem.

Mark
Message no. 10
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:04:28 GMT
Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM> writes
>
> The Spell has several practical functions that I could
> think of.
> 1) cast it at a spirit so non astrally
> perceiving characters can help.
simpler and faster to blow it up with a damaging manip.

> 2) cast it on a spirit that is trying to escape (sorry you can't go
> through > walls anymore)
ditto 1.

> 3) cast it on a spirit to keep it from
> chasing / following you. *you only need one round to
> get out of sight*
>
This actually could be very useful if trying to be subtle. As if you
kill the thing its controller knows you did it. Force it manifest and
run off leaves the poor spirt trying to find you (astral fast speed -
yeah like it can see you anymore), and it might take it a while to
find its summoner to tell him/her about you, assuming of course it
was given report orders.

> Brian>What TN
> Brian>are you looking at, and how have you classified the spell
> Brian>(combat, manipulation)? Keep posting.
>
> Well just off the top of my head I would have to say the force
> of the spirit would be the TN# (target number). And he would
> resist with It's base willpower (maybe his force).
> *so it could be really hard.* but many spells are.
> The classification would prob. fit best under manip.
>
it really would have to be a mind controlling manipulation, due to
similarity to 'mind control' though you could drop the threshold. It
also must be ED type it instant cast, lasts for duration. There is a
'paralysis' abilty in HB that works like that, duration = successes
(in rounds). Also we have 'Qintin Harlech' (yeah right) in 'house of
the sun' throwing ED magic about in SR (yes we knew he could do it,
but here is a demo (but in a novel) that the magic level will
support magic of this type, so no mana level problems).

> Keep the comments flowing...
> Thanks
> Gary C.
>
Mark
Message no. 11
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 09:23:04 -0700
>>>Gary writes:
>>> [Force Manifest spell]

>Damion Milliken
>Sounds like quite a nifty idea to me. Something the magician
>in my team would probably jump for joy at getting (he's been
>scared silly of elementals in astral space ever since one beat
>the snot out of him a couple of years back, and no amount of
>"you wuss" from the other players can convince him to hang
>round on the ethereal when there's a bad guy elemental nearby).
>I'd rate it as a Manipulation spell, probably with a target
>number of Force, and to be resisted by Force (incidently this
>is the same as a target number of Willpower, since when
>elementals are on the astral their stats equal their Force).

Well yes in most cases (spirits and elementals) the force
is the same as the willpower, but not all. Another application
that I had in mind was for Bug City true form spirits. Many
of the true form spirits have low willpowers. And it would be
very handy to be able to get away from them once in a while.
*another question this brings up is would the Hive willpower
protection cover this sort of action*
(i.e. TrueForm Spirit willpower(2) hive protect(8)= new will(10))

>Mark
>interesting. I assume this is some sort of mind control, which
>in SR would require that in be a sustained spell, and that
>needs astral perception. However new spells that last time
>by successes but are instants to cast are defendable (similar
>to how ED works and certain critter powers).

Well I would say that as I thought of it as a sustained I had a
definately eerie feeling about being astrally linked to any
kind of spirit or elemental. So I tried to make it more like a
kind of confusion like spell. The function I was trying to
accomplish *for ease of explaining* is to stun their manifest
power. *like making their manifest button stuck in the "on"
position for a short period of time*
So the type would be instant with a base # of rounds = # of
successes before the can go astral (remember that they can
go astral: however you want to look at it)
*and yes it would be a resisted spell*

>> 1) cast it at a spirit so non astrally
>> perceiving characters can help.
>simpler and faster to blow it up with a damaging manip.

I don't have my book here but I don't think damaging manips
would do much in astral *not to mention it would flow over
into the physical world* and it would take very little time
to get out of the area of effect.

>it really would have to be a mind controlling manipulation,
>due to similarity to 'mind control' though you could drop
>the threshold. It also must be ED type it instant cast, lasts
>for duration. There is a 'paralysis' abilty in HB that works
>like that, duration = successes (in rounds). Also we have
>'Qintin Harlech' (yeah right) in 'house of the sun' throwing
>ED magic about in SR (yes we knew he could do it, but here is
>a demo (but in a novel) that the magic level will support magic
>of this type, so no mana level problems).

well mind controlling manip is one way to look at it, but I was
trying to avoid any problems others have about the mental
capacities of spirits elementals and paranormals. Yes I was
tryng to make it instant *kind of like paralysis as you described*
only less powerful I don't want to render them held or incapable
of action I just want them to temp. leave the astral space.

Thanks for all the comments.
Keep them comming.
I'll prob. try to hash out the spell tonight and post tomorrow, or
friday.

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 12
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 12:21:48 -0600
I mean high-force elementals. If you don't like the spell, respond to
the original post instead of trahing on my response.

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes after an electrical storm I see in 5 dimensions. Why are the
sixty of you looking at me like that?"

--Cornfed, from _Duckman_
Message no. 13
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 12:28:35 -0600
On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Nika Nikolic wrote:

> cool spell gary. but john IV if your read the last SR bu Nyx Smith (god rest
> his soul) you see that the shaman "Bandit" summons a familiar to battle a
> manifested spirit so that's what your shamans/mages should do to combat them.

I haven't had any players play shamans before, so I hadn't given much
thought to suggesting that course of action (i.e., using spirits). Good
suggestion, though. I also haven't read any of the books. :)

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes after an electrical storm I see in 5 dimensions. Why are the
sixty of you looking at me like that?"

--Cornfed, from _Duckman_
Message no. 14
From: Josue <josuee@****.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 17:05:19 -0600
On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Gary Carroll wrote:

> I had an Idea
> and wanted to hear some comments about it.
>
> SPELL...
> Force Manifest.
> Description. By means of this spell a spellcaster
> causes an astral creature (only creatures that can
> manifest), to manifest for a number of combat turn
> equal to the number of (xtra) successes.
>
> i.e.Billy the sorcer adept sees a earth elemental gurading
> an entrance of an apartment. (from astral perception)
> The elemental is rather large and he does not think
> that can take him out by himself. So he decides to
> try to get his friend to help. Jo Bob the Physical
> adept prepares his +2 pitchfork weapon focus for the
> fight as Billy (SorAdpt) cast his new spell
> Force Manifest. Billy cast and gets 3 successes
> the Elemental resists and only gets 2 successes.
> (thus billy nets 1 success)
> The Elemental is forced to manifest. (manifesting
> in this way does not use services, but is considered
> an act of agression, *in otherwords don't do it to
> your spirits/elementals*)
> Billy better hurry because he knows that they only
> have one turn before the elemental goes back into
> astral, and then they'll be in real trouble.
>
> I haven't worked out the drain yet but I thought
> I would ask what you think....
>
>
> *comments desired*
> Thanks
> Gary C.
>


Just one thing to consider. If the player sorcerer adept can use this
spell what will happen if an NPC decides to use it on an astrally
projecting PC? Will they simply get forced back into their physical
body, or do they somehow become tangible in the physical space that they
are in at that moment when the spell hit them?

Comments...

Eric J.
Message no. 15
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:44:33 -0700
>> SPELL...
>> Force Manifest.
>> Description. By means of this spell a spellcaster
>> causes an astral creature (only creatures that can
>> manifest), to manifest for a number of combat turn
>> equal to the number of (xtra) successes.
>
>Eric.
>Just one thing to consider. If the player sorcerer adept
>can use this spell what will happen if an NPC decides to
>use it on an astrally projecting PC? Will they simply get
>forced back into their physical body, or do they somehow
>become tangible in the physical space that they are in at
>that moment when the spell hit them?

as I specifically put into the description it only
works in creatures that have the power to manifest.
so no watchers or mages, etc...

I'm thinking about a spell for Return To Body

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 16
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 22:31:30 -0400
Stainless Steel Rat writes, about the Force Manifest spell:

> >>>>> "John" == John IV <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
writes:
>
> John> This way, they feel like they can do something, and it is also a
> John> creative way of diverting astral combat.
>
> Except that you have to go astral in order to target a non-manifest
> being with the spell. Kinda defeats the purpose, don't you think?

Not really.. You cast the spell so your friends can whack the critter
too. Much more useful (and safe) than going at it alone.. Besides, there
may be other role-playing reasons to force the spirit to manifest.

Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "Suppose Euphoria is a state with
My opinions are my opinions. | 'n' cities..."
Please don't blame anyone else. | - Proof in CS 3158
Message no. 17
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 08:46:55 GMT
> From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>

> >>>Gary writes:
> >>> [Force Manifest spell]
>
> >Damion Milliken
> *another question this brings up is would the Hive willpower
> protection cover this sort of action*
> (i.e. TrueForm Spirit willpower(2) hive protect(8)= new will(10))
>
probably would actually, even the bug city version as it is 'mind
affecting' magic.

> >Mark
> >interesting. I assume this is some sort of mind control, which
> >in SR would require that in be a sustained spell, and that
> >needs astral perception. However new spells that last time
> >by successes but are instants to cast are defendable (similar
> >to how ED works and certain critter powers).
>
> Well I would say that as I thought of it as a sustained
one matter here was that you are not allowed to sustain spells while
astral project.

> I had a
> definately eerie feeling about being astrally linked to any
> kind of spirit or elemental. So I tried to make it more like a
> kind of confusion like spell. The function I was trying to
> accomplish *for ease of explaining* is to stun their manifest
> power. *like making their manifest button stuck in the "on"
> position for a short period of time*
assumed.

> So the type would be instant with a base # of rounds = # of
> successes before the can go astral (remember that they can
> go astral: however you want to look at it)
> *and yes it would be a resisted spell*
>
yes as per 'control thoughts' not 'control actions' as for the latter
you need net successes equal to the targets willpower, thanks FASA
for only explaining what a threshold is under masking in SR2.

> >> 1) cast it at a spirit so non astrally
> >> perceiving characters can help.
> >simpler and faster to blow it up with a damaging manip.
>
> I don't have my book here but I don't think damaging manips
> would do much in astral *not to mention it would flow over
> into the physical world* and it would take very little time
> to get out of the area of effect.
>
the book rules don't say anything much on this sybject. FASA note
that you cannot ground damaging manipulation spells through spell
locks, and that they are dual when travelling to target, ie visible
and physically present.
I as a result rule that you are not allowed (in my game) to use
damaging manipulations on the astral plane. very nice for magicians
that have no armour there.

> >it really would have to be a mind controlling manipulation,
> >due to similarity to 'mind control' though you could drop
> >the threshold. It also must be ED type it instant cast, lasts
> >for duration. There is a 'paralysis' abilty in HB that works
> >like that, duration = successes (in rounds). Also we have
> >'Qintin Harlech' (yeah right) in 'house of the sun' throwing
> >ED magic about in SR (yes we knew he could do it, but here is
> >a demo (but in a novel) that the magic level will support magic
> >of this type, so no mana level problems).
>
> well mind controlling manip is one way to look at it, but I was
> trying to avoid any problems others have about the mental
> capacities of spirits elementals and paranormals.
they have willpower scores so the game mechanics work. despite how
folks use them most spirits have intelligence equal to force and the
full ability to use that IQ. (assuming they get the chance)

> Yes I was
> tryng to make it instant *kind of like paralysis as you described*
> only less powerful I don't want to render them held or incapable
> of action I just want them to temp. leave the astral space.
>
Thats what i assumed, i quoted that example as it lends acceptablity
to implementing a spell this way in SR as all existing duration
spells have to be sustained.

> Thanks for all the comments.
> Keep them comming.
> I'll prob. try to hash out the spell tonight and post tomorrow, or
> friday.
>
> Thanks
> Gary C.
>

Mark
Message no. 18
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Spell question
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:25:59 +1000
Mark Steedman writes:

> [Damaging manipulations cannot be cast from the astral plane]

I agree with that. A damaging manipulation has a physical component to it,
the spell must travel to its target both on the astral plane and in physical
space. Such a requirement will preclude it from being cast from the astral
plane.

> > but I was trying to avoid any problems others have about the mental
> > capacities of spirits elementals and paranormals.
>
> they have willpower scores so the game mechanics work. despite how
> folks use them most spirits have intelligence equal to force and the
> full ability to use that IQ. (assuming they get the chance)

Yup, a Force 3 spirit with an Intelligence of 3 is as quick of mind and can
perceive as well as the average human. Don't mix the SR stat Intelligence
with the real world definition of the word. Just because it's called
Intelligence doesn't mean it rates the intelligence of the character it
describes. The stat Intelligence describes the characters alertness and
perceptiveness. An intelligent person in SR is highly skilled. An alert and
perceptive person in SR has a high Intelligence stat.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 19
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 09:53:06 -0400
>>>>> "S" == S F Eley <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU> writes:

>> Except that you have to go astral in order to target a non-manifest
>> being with the spell. Kinda defeats the purpose, don't you think?

S> Not really.. You cast the spell so your friends can whack the critter
S> too.

So why not drop a Hellblast on the elemental instead?

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 20
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:28:51 +0200
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:28:48 +0200 (MET DST)

> SPELL...
> Force Manifest.
> [spell description]

I like this one ! A great idea.

I think the TN should be the force(R) of the spirit and hence it has to be a
combat spell. The duration could be changed to sustained, though, because
it should be REALLY tough to get more than one success against elementals
whith a force above 6 (which most of them got).
For the drain I would propose (F:2)S, because the spell itself doesn't do
damage, so it shouldn't be too hard to resist (and you need to cast this
spell with a really big force, anyway or it will be pretty useless).

Bye...
Georg

--
Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE
Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de
Message no. 21
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: New Spell question.
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 16:42:12 -0700
The long lost Spell I promised a month ago
Well I finally found my Grimoure and GenCon is
over so I had some time to work this out.

I have created several versions of this spell
so here goes

SPELL: FORCE MANIFEST
Description. By means of this spell a spellcaster
causes an astral creature with the manifest power to
manifest on the prime material.

These are considered Manipulation spells

1) Type: physical
Range: LOS
Duration: Sustained
Target: Force of the spirit/elemental/para
Drain: [(f/2)+2]S
Description:
Well it does exactly as it says, your forcing
a spirit to physically manifest. This is painful
to the spirit/elemental/para so don't expect him
to be nice. *this will not use a favor of the mage
that summoned it*

2) Type: physical
Range: LOS
Duration: Instant
Target: Force of the spirit/elemental/para
Drain: [(f/2)+2]S
Description:
same as above but duration is:
for a number of combat turn(s) equal to
1+(1 for every 2 extra success).

3) Type: mana
Range: LOS
Duration: Sustained
Target: The spirit's willpower *plese see critter table*
Drain: [(f/2)+3]D
Description:
I created this for the weak willed Bug Spirits that
cause players so much grief. The drain is way out there
I know, but let me explain: first of all this version is
considered a mind affecting manipulation and since this
is using a special power I had to go with the deep mind
intrusion. But you are not trying to affect the creatures
thoughts or memory or even actions (other than manifest)
so I would rule the special power of this spell is that
the creature would not get his shared willpower bonus
from the queen.
*I know that one is going to pose some comments so let's
have it...*

Any of theses spells can be dropped to limited
range to lower the drain level by -1 (dropping from S to M),
or made more specific, ie. Force Insect Spirit Manifest
to lower the drain target by -1.
*adding both of these would make #1's drain [(f/2)+1]M *


Here's an example I posted earlier.

This is version 2 of the spell
i.e.Billy the Shaman sees a earth elemental gurading
an entrance of an apartment. (from astral perception)
The elemental is rather large and he does not think
that can take him out by himself. So he decides to
try to get his friend to help. Jo Bob the Physical
adept prepares his +2 pitchfork weapon focus for the
fight as Billy (Shaman) cast his new spell
Force Manifest. Billy cast and gets 5 successes
the Elemental resists and only gets 2 successes.
(thus billy nets 3 success)
(the elemental will be forced to manifest for
2 combat turns, (1 + (3/2 = 1.5 round down = 1)) = 2)
The Elemental is forced to manifest. (manifesting
in this way does not use services, but is considered
an act of agression, *in otherwords don't do it to
your spirits/elementals*)
Billy better hurry because he knows that they only
have two turns before the elemental goes back into
astral, and then they'll be in real trouble.

*comments desired*
Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 22
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New Spell question.
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 13:38:11 GMT
> From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>

> The long lost Spell I promised a month ago
>
> I have created several versions of this spell
> so here goes
>
> SPELL: FORCE MANIFEST
> Description. By means of this spell a spellcaster
> causes an astral creature with the manifest power to
> manifest on the prime material.
>
> These are considered Manipulation spells
>
> 1)
> Duration: Sustained
>
what i would call the perfectly legal SR way of doing it, suffers as
a practical spell from the fact that you cannot sustain spell while
astrally projecting.

> 2)
> Duration: Instant
What i think is the way to go. this looks reasonable and can be cast
from the astral. Eg force spirit to manifest then RUN!!!.... Ok this
is a spell type not covered by the Grimoire but there are a few FASA
things about that give a precdent for this sort of approach.

> 3)
> Target: The spirit's willpower *plese see critter table*
>
fine appart from i don't think you can cicumvent the 'hive queens
protection' as this is exactly what it is designed to counter, but
make up your own mind.

> *comments desired*
> Thanks
> Gary C.
>
Mark

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