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Message no. 1
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: [OT] GT PHYS 3211 Electronics for Physicists
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 06:04:22 -0400
At 04:33 PM 10-20-98 +1000, you wrote:
>
>The speed of light is not the same as the speed of electricity. Here's why:

I was going to give it a bye, but since someone else brought it up I might
as well pass on what the physics professors at Georgia Tech taught me...

>1) Light moves slower in different mediums. The speed of light in, say,
>copper is significantly slower than in vacuum.

No and yes. All EM waves move at the same speed: c. However, an EM wave
moving through a physical medium gets deflected by a certain amount
depending on the wavelength of the wave. Long-wavelength waves are
deflected the least. This is important, because...

>2) Electrons don't move at lightspeed anyway. They move near to that speed,
>but not at it.

Electrons actually only move a few centimeters per second. That's okay,
the speed at which electrons propagate really has very little to do with
how electricity works. That's because...

>3) Electrons don't move in a straight line. Even with a current, they'll
>bounce around, which slows down the speed of the electronic signal.

Electrons are the medium, not the message. It's the electric field that
propagates at light-speed and transmits energy through the system. So, for
example, when you flip on a light switch you're not sending the electrons
zipping up the wire. Rather, you're creating a closed circuit with a
relatively large degree of difference in electric potentials. This creates
an electro-motive force (EMF) which pushes energy through the system.
Where the electrons come in to it, quantum mechanically speaking, is that
they absorb the photons of EM energy, get excited and jump to a higher
energy-level, then radiate a photon and drop to a lower energy-level.
Chemically speaking, metals make better conductors because they have a
outer energy-shells containing only a few loose electrons; makes it easier
for them to get excited and jump energy-levels. This is also why all
plasmas are superconductors; a plasma by definition is the state of matter
where all electrons are stripped away from their nuclei, so all electrons
in a plasma are "free" electrons.

>IIRC, the speed used for how fast electronic signals propagate is about
>1/2c, but it's a statistical average that varies between different
>conductors.

Yes, but that's due to the dispersion factor of an EM wave moving through a
physical medium, not how fast an electron moves through a particular
material. Also, keep in mind that "signal" and "wave" are not the
same
animal. A wave's speed is defined as "phase speed." A signal moves at
what's called the "group speed" which is defined as the speed which a wave
pulse carrying a piece of information can travel, based on how much the the
medium causes the wave to disperse. In systems with no dispersion (such as
light moving through a vacuum) phase speed and group speed are the same.

>Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 2
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [OT] GT PHYS 3211 Electronics for Physicists
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:25:16 -0400
Starjammer wrote:
>
> I was going to give it a bye, but since someone else brought it up I might
> as well pass on what the physics professors at Georgia Tech taught me...

Arrrrgh! The pain, THE PAIN!!! Begone, foul Professor Stanford! Begone,
memories of torturous multiple-choice exams!

(For those who weren't there -- the required electromagnetics class at
Tech is known as Emag, Remag or Threemag, depending on how many times
you've taken it before you passed... By actually signing up for MORE,
Starjammer's just proven he's a braver man than I.)


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley (CS '96)
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 3
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] GT PHYS 3211 Electronics for Physicists
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:46:14 -0400
At 11:25 AM 10-20-98 -0400, you wrote:
>Starjammer wrote:
>>
>> I was going to give it a bye, but since someone else brought it up I might
>> as well pass on what the physics professors at Georgia Tech taught me...
>
>Arrrrgh! The pain, THE PAIN!!! Begone, foul Professor Stanford! Begone,
>memories of torturous multiple-choice exams!
>
>(For those who weren't there -- the required electromagnetics class at
>Tech is known as Emag, Remag or Threemag, depending on how many times
>you've taken it before you passed... By actually signing up for MORE,
>Starjammer's just proven he's a braver man than I.)
>
> - Steve Eley (CS '96)

Nah, just a Physics major. Electronics was actually the last
physics-curriculum class I took before changing majors (good at physics,
BAD at DiffEq ;). Between three classroom and six lab hours a week, I
figure I should have learned SOMETHING. :)

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 4
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [OT] GT PHYS 3211 Electronics for Physicists
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:22:21 -0700
>No and yes. All EM waves move at the same speed: c. However, an EM wave
>moving through a physical medium gets deflected by a certain amount
>depending on the wavelength of the wave. Long-wavelength waves are
>deflected the least. This is important, because...

Generally speaking, yes. But there are nonlinear optic effects that change
this.

>Electrons actually only move a few centimeters per second. That's okay,
>the speed at which electrons propagate really has very little to do with
>how electricity works. That's because...

Electron drift velocity ...

>>3) Electrons don't move in a straight line. Even with a current, they'll
>>bounce around, which slows down the speed of the electronic signal.
>
>Electrons are the medium, not the message. It's the electric field that
>propagates at light-speed and transmits energy through the system. So, for
>example, when you flip on a light switch you're not sending the electrons
>zipping up the wire. Rather, you're creating a closed circuit with a
>relatively large degree of difference in electric potentials. This creates
>an electro-motive force (EMF) which pushes energy through the system.
>Where the electrons come in to it, quantum mechanically speaking, is that
>they absorb the photons of EM energy, get excited and jump to a higher
>energy-level, then radiate a photon and drop to a lower energy-level.

True, but electromagnetic force is carried by _virtual_ photons. All force
carriers are virtual. A virtual particle exists within a timeframe alloted
by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle formulated in the energy-time
domain.

>Chemically speaking, metals make better conductors because they have a
>outer energy-shells containing only a few loose electrons; makes it easier
>for them to get excited and jump energy-levels. This is also why all
>plasmas are superconductors; a plasma by definition is the state of matter
>where all electrons are stripped away from their nuclei, so all electrons
>in a plasma are "free" electrons.

The strict definition of a plasma involves quasineutrality and collective
behavior. Superconductivity has no part in it. Also, Debeye shielding
mitigates the free electron behavior in a plasma.

In fact, it would be very difficult to make a plasma superconductive, by
definition. The Cooper pairs would not form and the magnetic flux vortices
would not be constrained. Without "pinning" the flux vortices in place it
is not possible to have superconductivity.

This is why, typically, superconductivity occurs at very low temperatures.
Thermal motions constrain the above behaviors.

>animal. A wave's speed is defined as "phase speed." A signal moves at
>what's called the "group speed" which is defined as the speed which a wave
>pulse carrying a piece of information can travel, based on how much the the
>medium causes the wave to disperse. In systems with no dispersion (such as
>light moving through a vacuum) phase speed and group speed are the same.

Yes. It is actually possible to have a phase speed faster than c (the speed
of light), but information is propagated at group speed, thus special
relativity is not violated.

>Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 5
From: "Mark C. Farrington" <alareth@*****.DWEBS.NET>
Subject: Re: [OT] GT PHYS 3211 Electronics for Physicists
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:39:49 -0400
<Snip smart people talk>

You realize that showing such intelligence completely destroys my
ex-wifes theory that only brain dead morons play rpg's?

Alareth - Acolyte of the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
Investigator, Shadowrun Webring Internal Affairs
The Shiny Happy Gaming Group - http://www.dwebs.net/~alareth
ICQ UIN - 11468823
Message no. 6
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: [OT] GT PHYS 3211 Electronics for Physicists
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:42:53 -0400
Quoting Mark C. Farrington (alareth@*****.DWEBS.NET):
> <Snip smart people talk>
>
> You realize that showing such intelligence completely destroys my
> ex-wifes theory that only brain dead morons play rpg's?

Don't mistake education for intelligence. Alla us folks down hur at
the Tech be edumicated. Somen of us still be dumb as a post :)

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 7
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [OT] GT PHYS 3211 Electronics for Physicists
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:45:56 -0700
>Quoting Mark C. Farrington (alareth@*****.DWEBS.NET):
>> <Snip smart people talk>
>>
>> You realize that showing such intelligence completely destroys my
>> ex-wifes theory that only brain dead morons play rpg's?
>
> Don't mistake education for intelligence. Alla us folks down hur at
>the Tech be edumicated. Somen of us still be dumb as a post :)

Tha' whar purty darn funnin' !!

> --Sean

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 8
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [OT] GT PHYS 3211 Electronics for Physicists
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:57:42 -0400
On 22 Oct 98, at 11:45, Adam Getchell wrote:

> Tha' whar purty darn funnin' !!

Wow! Adam does speak English! :)

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - |"Letter writing is the only
- drekhead@***.net - | device for combining
HTML to: drekhead@********.net | solitude and good company."
ICQ - UIN 2883757 | -Lord Byron

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