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Message no. 1
From: JSB@**************.net (JS Bracher)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 18:52:50 -0700
Do you know how many martial arts there are? And how many variants of each
style? If you want a good overview, I suggest GURPS Martial Arts; it does
a good job. Otherwise, let us know more specifically what you are looking for.

I've dabbled in Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Tang So Do Karate and read
various books on Akido, Hapkido, Ninjitsu, and others. And even among the
experts, your questions are difficult to answer. Each instructor/master
has different interpretations.

More questions you could ask are:
How much is dodging & blocking taught? Not all instructors make
them an issue. The head of my TKD school said "head take many blows". He
said defend the torso and don't worry about the head. But we never saw him
block, and he was never where you kicked, so I'm not sure dodging really
describes it. And he moved like a big cat; fast and smooth. He was always
moving before you were.

Which arts focus more on combat and which on sport? (judo was
developed as a sport).

Which are more integrated, and which are more diverse? Tae Kwon
Do (where I was taught it) really focused on kicks, some blows, and a
little bit of "other stuff". Some arts are more collections of many
different techniques (a book I read on Jujitsu was page after page of "if
you are in this situation, do this; in that situation, do this other thing...)

In general, if you kick or hit, muscle is really important. Throws require
mass and balance. Locks/holds require dexterity.

And it's always better to do unto others before they do unto you.

As for gutter moves, I was never taught them. Not as a separate thing,
anyway. Some of the books I read talked about hand positions good for
striking eyes. Some had maps of the nervous system with pressure
points. But those areas are more challenging to hit. It's just much
easier to really pound whatever part of you opponent is handy.

If you are much better than your opponent, just beat on them. You don't
need to take the time/effort to do anything special. And the fight should
be over quickly anyway.

If your opponent is equal or better, "called shots" are really tough to
pull off, and just beating on them is a good solution (unless they goof and
present a good target).

Where the locks and holds are really handy is if you don't want to beat on
them. There is a nice thumb/wrist hold that is good for dissuading people
from further strenuous activity. And since most people will try punches,
just grab their arm, grab the thumb and start bending.

If you want to take someone out of a fight, hard-kick their
knees. Especially from the side. Lots of pain, and they stop moving
without even more pain. Akido has a wrist lock of persuasion. It hurts
lots, and if the person does not choose to be persuaded, you can break
their arm in 3 places.

At 02:01 AM 10/10/2002 +0100, Rand Ratinac wrote:
>As noted, I've got some questions for the martial arts
>gurus on the list. Can you guys give me a list of:
>
>1. all the different martial arts that you know;
>2. what kind of "attribute" each art favours (is it
>better to be strong, or fast, or have quick reflexes
>or what for each particular art);
>3. the nastiest, dirtiest gutter-moves you've been
>taught as part of each art and a brief description of
>how you perform each move (for instance, you're in a
>"kill or be killed" situation, but you don't want to
>kill anyone, just incapacitate and/or maim them - so
>what do you do to them?).
>
>Thanks, guys.
>
>====>Doc'
>(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka
>Doc' Vader)
>
>.sig Sauer
>
>If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!
>
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Message no. 2
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 04:12:20 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Ennew" <robertennew@*****.com.au>

> Tae Kwon Do (IIRC this is correct form to write It,
> not western bastardisation of forming 1 word, because
> It's not)

Agreed. This is how my instructor wrote it [when using english
letters].

2nd line, 'cause I don't like 1 line replies. :)

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 3
From: shannon@*****.co.za (Shannon Buys)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:35:34 +0200
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>1. all the different martial arts that you know;

Capoeria
Martial art believed to have originated in Brazil with roots in Africa.
Concentrates mainly on kicks and disorienting oponent. Normally 'played' as
a game in a 'roda' (circle of people with a drummer and singer). Only two
moves in which the hands or arms are ever used to physically strike or hold
an oponent and this only in the 'Rio' style which originated recently (last
3 decades) among gangs in Rio dejanero (sp?).

Emphasises balance, fluidity (you never stop moving, all the moves lead into
each other) when not attacking or defending, capoeristas perform a sort of
dance called a 'jinga'. All moves flow into and out of the 'jinga'.
Cartwheels, handstands and summersaults are used extensively as attack and
defence moves.

Very flamboyant, personally I've heard that a well trained capoerista can
kick the daylights out of someone, but I'm not very sure of it's
practicality in an actual fight. The 'Rio' style however is a lot more
practical (and dirty) dropping a lot of the more flamboyant moves for things
like eye-gouging and throat punches.

The only weapon I know of that has any use in capoeria is the straight razor
and is very rarely seen.

Cannon Companion has some very good info on many martial arts by the way.
Message no. 4
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:43:04 +0000
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>To break it down more specifically? I'm looking for
>ideal martial arts to learn if you're i) big and
>strong, but not so fast, and ii) small and quick and
>agile, but not so strong and how best you would go
>about "breaking" opponents in as quick and effective a
>fashion as you could manage. Locks aren't such a good
>thing, because I'm thinking of a situation where you'd
>be fighting multiple opponents (not necessarily all at
>once, but close enough together that you couldn't
>really afford to devote a lot of time to locking one
>opponent's fingers/wrist/arm etc.).

If you're big and strong but not fast I would probably suggest boxing, as in
european boxing, as in Tyson and Lewis and such...
Small fast people tend to find the oriental martial arts more in keeping
with their abilities. As I said in my previous post, (I think I did anyway)
it is incredibly difficult to get to grips with someone short and light.
Short people may not have the reach of tall folk but damn can they jump.
Don't assume that locks take huge amounts of time either, watch Steven
Segall movies (I know he's a fat, slicked-back greasy rat, funky jacket,
prayer-bead premadonna but) he makes some very good use of locks very
quickly.

>Okay, these two are useful. A kick to the knee is
>fairly easy to figure out. The wrist lock on the other
>hand...know of any books that show this lock? And what
>three places can you break the arm in (and what would
>you have to do to break it)?

There are hundreds of different locks, way too many to explain in words
without demonstration. suffice to say that if you put six pounds of force on
a joint in the direction it is supposed to bend when that joint is at its
limit in that direction you can dislocate that joint. If you put a couple of
pounds of extra force onto any joint which you are holding at either full
flex or full extension you have control of the person's movements, the brain
would rather walk than have the elbow hyperextended, the mind doesn't
particularly get a say.
Think about the half nelson, where your arm is forced up behing your back.
You automatically go up onto tip-toe if the pressure is put on in the right
way. And if enough pressure is put on it will dislocate either your shoulder
of your elbow.

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Message no. 5
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:41:20 +0100 (BST)
<snipt!(TM)>
> Don't assume that locks take huge amounts of time
either, watch Steven Segall movies (I know he's a fat,
slicked-back greasy rat, funky jacket, prayer-bead
premadonna but) he makes some very good use of locks
very quickly.
<snipt!(TM) 'gain>
> Lone Eagle

Sorry, what I meant was that I didn't think locks
would be much help in the situation I described
because while I don't doubt that you can (and have
to!) perform them quickly, you're then tied up keeping
the lock in effect, or the guy you just locked can
start fighting back once you drop the lock. Or is that
what you're saying - you can quickly perform a lock,
then use the lock to disable the victim (or at least
the limb you're locking) then release the lock and
move on?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 6
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:18:30 -0600
At 02:01 AM 10/10/2002 +0100, Rand Ratinac wrote:
>As noted, I've got some questions for the martial arts
>gurus on the list. Can you guys give me a list of:
>
>1. all the different martial arts that you know;

9 months of Karate. Just enough to get a taste.

2 years of Hopkido. More than enough to become a flexible pacifist.

>2. what kind of "attribute" each art favours (is it
>better to be strong, or fast, or have quick reflexes
>or what for each particular art);

The Karate that I took was more competitive than defensive. Being fast was
a definite plus when it came to sparing. Dedication to practicing forms,
grace, and balance were required to be competitive in forms competitions.

Hopkido requires dedication and intelligence. Hopkido techniques don't
require strength, speed, etc. They do require dedication to practicing.

>3. the nastiest, dirtiest gutter-moves you've been
>taught as part of each art and a brief description of
>how you perform each move (for instance, you're in a
>"kill or be killed" situation, but you don't want to
>kill anyone, just incapacitate and/or maim them - so
>what do you do to them?).

Sticking thumbs in the attackers eyes. Just put your hands on either side
of their face and shove your thumbs into their eyes as hard as you can.

Slapping them in the ears.

Jabbing them in the throat.

Grabbing their larynx and squeezing/crushing it.

After successfully using one of the above maneuvers we were taught to press
the advantage and disable our attacker using a variety of follow-up techniques.

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
--
Message no. 7
From: cmaxfiel@****.org.au (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 00:24:55 +1000
Records show that at 11:01 on Thursday 10/10/02 AEST, Rand Ratinac advised:
>As noted, I've got some questions for the martial arts
>gurus on the list. Can you guys give me a list of:
>
>1. all the different martial arts that you know;
>2. what kind of "attribute" each art favours (is it
>better to be strong, or fast, or have quick reflexes
>or what for each particular art);
>3. the nastiest, dirtiest gutter-moves you've been
>taught as part of each art and a brief description of
>how you perform each move (for instance, you're in a
>"kill or be killed" situation, but you don't want to
>kill anyone, just incapacitate and/or maim them - so
>what do you do to them?).

I don't know any martial arts (the closest I ever get is watching Jackie
Chan and Jet Li movies) but the best resource I've found may also help you,
Doc. It's the extensive Martial Art FAQ at
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~mcweigel/rmafaq/rmafaq1.html#2

It's a prime reference for my SR games.

Chris
Message no. 8
From: christian@********.org (Christian Casavant)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:54:17 +0100
Once upon a time, I was a style monkey. I would rate peeps by the style
they practised and I would dismiss their prowess as fighters by the
style they chose. Years ago, I would have attributed SR3 rules bonuses
to styles based on their philosophy and perceived efficacy. However,
I've learned a lot in my many years of martial practise, and I've
changed. These are some of the many things I've learned over the years.

There was a large furore several years ago about Brazilian Ju-jitsu and
it's dominance as a fighting style. I disagree. Not that the style
isn't any good, I've practised it, and I still practice it to supplement
my favourite style, Wing Chun. When you hear a lot of people criticize
styles, you'll often hear them say well, the kicks are weak, or it's too
linear, or too flowery, or no groundwork, blah, blah. Whatever their
reasons, I say "Poppycock!" Style is cosmetic; fighting is fighting. I
believe the fighter is more important than the style, although I think
that some environments (and by that I mean, will there be rules to a
fight) favour certain styles. The most important thing I can say about
style is this: stick with it. I say this for two reasons: Jack of all
trades, master of none; I also say this because I can't count the number
of times I've squared off against fellow students of WC who break into
TKD kicks, spinning and flailing and forgetting their WC. When you
fight, be true to your style, believe in what you've learned and you
will fare better. If your opponent forces you to fight by his rules, he
will have a large advantage. If you force your opponent to fight by
your terms, you will turn that advantage.

I have seen hundreds of peeps pass through the schools I've been in and
no two looked alike when they were done. Every student takes something
different away from the instructor, and since all people are wired
differently, they won't likely use the same techniques in a fight. To
get technical for a moment, the most natural movement for me is a Biu
Jee block, pulling back into Lap Sau combined with a straight punch to
the face. Thrown into that is a checking kick to the leading knee to
disrupt balance and forward momentum. It's very natural for me, and I
fly into it without thought and with excellent balance. I am at the
stage where after this thought-no-though action, I can easily evaluate
whether my opponent needs more softening or not. However, I don't like
the Bong Sau, the signature block of Wing Chun. I find it weak on my
shoulder. I sometimes use it when moving backwards and my guard is
pinned, since it's ideal for that, but I don't use it as a punch block
like many others.

I've also seen that no matter how many years you've been practising and
how many techniques you've learned, you only really used half a dozen or
so when it's down to the crunch. For me, these tend to be short, fast,
simple, economical motions. Not too much spinning, nor high kicks, nor
fancy arm locks. I save those for when the opponent has almost had
enough. I don't want to wrestle. If I decide I need to restrain I
soften up first.

It doesn't work all the time. Too many martial artists think that
when they get their black belts, they're ass-whoopin mofos. Not so. I
revere the ground my Sifu walks on, but every so once in a while, I
catch him out and one gets through.

Lastly, and this plays a bit on style, you need to fight fight fight.
Practising in a controlled environment, like a dojo, doesn't let you
feel what it's like to be on the receiving end of a full strength and
speed punch, full of malice. Most of the times (in my experience) those
are much harder to defend against rather than clean clinical straight
punches.

I don't really think physiology of a fighter is too important. However,
size aside speed and strength are always beneficial! Some styles might
benefit heights of people. For example, Angry White Pyjamas tells us
that short people are geared for Aikido. However Steven Seagal is 6'4
and he doesn't seem to have too much trouble with the style. To
illustrate the style doesn't work, towards the end, when they're at an
Aikido seminar, one of the major characters is attacked by a woman with
a sword while he stands frozen, unable to defend himself. (having said
that, whenever a woman asks me what art she should practice I reply
Aikido (or some form thereof) it's the best for women, no doubt.)

To address the question of technique, someone has already said that
biting, poking, gouging soft bits are all really effective. And they
are. It's hard to fight if you can't see. You definitely can't fight
if you can't breath. Again, I would say the fighter is more deadly than
the technique, although some applications are inherently more dangerous
than others. I am reminded of the argument about bullet efficacy. In
this respect, the arguments are similar. Just like there are plenty of
examples of people surviving being shot multiple times, there are hand
to hand techniques that may not work often. The classic example is the
upwards palm strike to the base of the nose, driving the cartilage up
into the brain. Why is it you only see this on TV? It's supposed to
work. But no martial arts teacher has ever tried to teach it in a class
I've ever attended. However, they always warn of the danger of striking
to the throat and eyes.

To sum up, style is an illusion. Fighting spirit, confidence, and
violence of action have usually served me in good stead. Whatever style
you practice in the dojo, needs to be the style you practice in the
street. Otherwise, you're sunk.
Message no. 9
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:50:09 +0000
>From: Andrew Norman <shadowrun@********.demon.co.uk>
>Tae Kwon Do - Speed and Balance (Strength comes from weight control and
>breathing)
>Judo - My style was more strength based than anything else but I was slowly
>getting to the moves that needed smooth transfer of your/enemies momentum.

My Sensai (Ju-Jitsu) is constantly saying two things, first that Ju-Jitsu is
the root art from which Judo, Akido and Karate sprang and even more
frequently
"If your relying on strength the you're not doing it right, it should be all
technique, you don't need to be strong to do this..."
It is his firm belief that short people have the advantage... (the fact that
he only just makes the minimum height requirement for a fireman and his
class is full of people at 6 foot plus might have something to do with that
of course.

> > 3. the nastiest, dirtiest gutter-moves you've been
> > taught as part of each art and a brief description of
> > how you perform each move (for instance, you're in a
> > "kill or be killed" situation, but you don't want to
> > kill anyone, just incapacitate and/or maim them - so
> > what do you do to them?).

I've just noticed something about this paragraph.
The most important thing to remember is that if you are in a kill or be
killed situation deciding that you just want to incapacitate will get you
killed, the options do not include break all your opponents limbs 'cause
then you might both get out alive...
I'm reminded of Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth saga; particularly of
Richard Cypher's "motto" which basically goes something like when you decide
it is time to cut, cut cut cut. or something like that.
When you "know" that your life is in immediate danger you use everything you
have, all the nastiest moves, all the strength, speed, power and weight you
can bring to bear and you do not stop until your life is no longer in
immediate danger.

Sorry, I know you're trying to get an urgency across but it's important to
note that surviving is more important than being moral...
To put it into shadowrun terms there comes a time when you have to drop your
Stun Baton and your Narcoject and pull your Predator and your Monowhip, and
if you don't it doesn't matter that you never ever killed anyone you'll
still be a smear on the floor.

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Message no. 10
From: shadowrun@********.demon.co.uk (Andrew Norman)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:06:39 +0100
On Thursday 10 Oct 2002 3:54 pm, Christian Casavant wrote:

[Snip a lot of stuff I agree with]

> To sum up, style is an illusion. Fighting spirit, confidence, and
> violence of action have usually served me in good stead. Whatever style
> you practice in the dojo, needs to be the style you practice in the
> street. Otherwise, you're sunk.

I agree with you here. My TKD instructor used to teach us both the style we
needed to fight with in the tournments and then would show us how to use
these moves in the street. As such New Zealand TKD is a lot more in-your-face
and upclose than the one that they teach in the UK.

But the spirit of the art is the hardest lesson to learn ... but a very
important one.

-Andrew
Message no. 11
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 01:37:42 +0100 (BST)
--- Christian Casavant <christian@********.org>
wrote:
<snipt!(TM)>
Interesting post, Christian - thanks for that.

Just got one question - you said that Aikido is always
the best style for women to learn. Why is that?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 12
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:25:07 +1000 (EST)
A dirty filthy move I've experimented with (ninjitsu
orientated) & works well, requires high concentration
in regards to your accuracy.

Aim with 1 or 2 fingers (make It look suttle or look
like something else your trying to do) strike quickly
& with as much force as your digit can take, just
above the top lip in the crease/crevess between
nostrils/nose, Its a pressure point, extremely painful
when happens to you, I think It crushes a maxilory
nerve or 2.

It's mainly a shock/sharp pain (It takes a while to
dissipate though as It strikes nerves violently) when
It happens then causing actual damage & ussually
causes a nose bleed. The moves effective enough to get
your opponent off your back for a good couple of
valuable seconds (while you stike him with another
dirty strike to finish him off), beware If you don't
follow up quickly It makes even a hardened warrior
lose his temper (could be to your advantage)when he
realises he's been put off from such a tiny & simple
move, a finger to his fists, like being beaten back by
a knat (annoying & demeaning to opponent).

2 fingers is easier to hit target as you can jam them
If your off slightly,definately more chance of causing
bleeding gums or nose bleed. 1 finger most effective
as smaller impact area sharper pain & effect lasts
longer.Remember when you strike try to breifly poise
the finger(s) on impact,so as all the force from your
strike dissipates into target area (for added effect
twist digit on impact,acting as a drill, tear
internally, nasty), finger(s) must be rigid bent
slightly towards flexion (not extension as they'll
lack force in strike & bend backwards, injuring self.

If you miss & jam fingers up nostrils, don't worry,
continue to jamfingers further & claw them backwards,
you've just successfully pulled off another move by
mistake & can proceed to drag your foe around by nose
(warning keep your distance at arms reach,reaf push &
pull to gain your distance as your opponent can still
line you up for a attack with hand or feet (not as bad
as If you keep a good grip on the nose/nostrils you'll
tear them off when forced back, inflicting more pain)
when pressure released breifly. Most effective way to
manetain pressure is by always keeping at arms reach,
If they step within this space,push forward (or back &
then forward, off balance, reaf on It, hard, then
he'll be forced back & be more compliant) & jam your
fingers further up his nose untill It bursts/splits
open or He's/she's more compliant & backpeddles.

Always be aware of your enviroment (don't concentrate
solely on the one opponent & lose sight of the larger
picture, where are the rest of your adversaries,
possible sneaking up behind to jump you if your not
careful), position your opponent where you want them &
where your in a less vulnerable postion to them.

When you have control of 1 opponent (this could be as
simple as leading him into a position of opportunity
using your enviroment to your advantage, & gaining
superior position) force him into the path of his
multiples, falling over each other to get to you, thus
controlling the situation (& possible rush from all
opponents at once), keep moving at all times (harder
target to strike, as long as you don't walk into or
are lead into a strike) & never let yourself be backed
into a corner or position where you altimately limit
the number of escape paths.

I apologise for the tolmewopper but It's all coming
back to me now that I'm on a roll. Note even basics of
ninjitsu are easier even for the laymen to understand,
& are the basis for most combat.


(GZ)



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