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Message no. 1
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial arts
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 04:57:16 +0100 (BST)
> Do you know how many martial arts there are? And
how many variants of each style? If you want a good
overview, I suggest GURPS Martial Arts; it does a good
job. Otherwise, let us know more specifically what
you are looking for.

This is why I asked for the arts YOU specifically have
studied. If you don't know enough about an art to
answer my questions, then don't answer them regarding
that art. :) I've got GURPS Martial Arts and the
problems with that is a) it's only got the most basic
descriptions of different moves, b) EVERYTHING is
based on Dexterity for success and Strength for
damage, which doesn't really give the best idea of
whether speed/agility or strength are more useful for
the different arts, and c) it's a game resource. I'm
trying to find answers from people who've actually
studied and experienced the different martial arts.

To break it down more specifically? I'm looking for
ideal martial arts to learn if you're i) big and
strong, but not so fast, and ii) small and quick and
agile, but not so strong and how best you would go
about "breaking" opponents in as quick and effective a
fashion as you could manage. Locks aren't such a good
thing, because I'm thinking of a situation where you'd
be fighting multiple opponents (not necessarily all at
once, but close enough together that you couldn't
really afford to devote a lot of time to locking one
opponent's fingers/wrist/arm etc.).

> I've dabbled in Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Tang So
Do Karate and read various books on Akido, Hapkido,
Ninjitsu, and others. And even among the experts,
your questions are difficult to answer. Each
instructor/master has different interpretations.

Then, regarding the arts that YOU know well, how would
YOU answer my questions? That's all I'm looking for.

<snipt!(TM)>
> If you want to take someone out of a fight,
hard-kick their knees. Especially from the side.
Lots of pain, and they stop moving without even more
pain. Akido has a wrist lock of persuasion. It hurts
lots, and if the person does not choose to be
persuaded, you can break their arm in 3 places.

Okay, these two are useful. A kick to the knee is
fairly easy to figure out. The wrist lock on the other
hand...know of any books that show this lock? And what
three places can you break the arm in (and what would
you have to do to break it)?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 2
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial arts
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:54:26 +1000 (EST)
--- Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> wrote: > As
noted, I've got some questions for the martial
> arts
> gurus on the list. Can you guys give me a list of:
>
> 1. all the different martial arts that you know;
> 2. what kind of "attribute" each art favours (is it
> better to be strong, or fast, or have quick reflexes
> or what for each particular art);
> 3. the nastiest, dirtiest gutter-moves you've been
> taught as part of each art and a brief description
> of
> how you perform each move (for instance, you're in a
> "kill or be killed" situation, but you don't want to
> kill anyone, just incapacitate and/or maim them - so
> what do you do to them?).
>
> Thanks, guys.
>

I'll reply in full descriptive mode when I'm not
feeling so beat.

1)Karate,Tae Kwon Do (Traditional Korean), Ninjitsu (I
hate my former instructor for his blatant brutality, I
didn't take in as much but enough (basics) as I was
always rushed, the rawness of It all made me have
nothing but contempt for my master & the art (& I'm
not easily scared off or a wuss'), the human mind is
fragile & doesn't respond well to the infliction of
pain, not to mention the drawbacks It has in learning
whilst training under such conditions.

1)Karate(forms I've learn't) raw power & brute force,
focus, strong determined mind frame/set

Tae Kwon Do (IIRC this is correct form to write It,
not western bastardisation of forming 1 word, because
It's not) speed & technique (produces power), reach &
height.

Ninjitsu is the bastardisation of all forms the
Japanese stole or conquered, majority from chinese
temple fighting & kung fu. Anything the Japanese liked
or considered advantagous or deadly they took as their
own (They still do to this day in modern ninjitsu).
Ninjitsu lacks own originality but is adaption upon
adaption. It mimicks form only to employ discipline
amonst It's rank. It employs weaponry so fluently
amongst open handed techniques its a force to be
reckoned with. Its extemely dirty, deadly,
devious,etc. Any true traditional or modern practioner
should be avoided as they say your blade etc is just a
tool, throw it away if needed as you (mind) are the
true weapon. (GZ)


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Message no. 3
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial arts
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:12:26 +0000
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>1. all the different martial arts that you know;

I'm assuming you mean know as opposed to know of.
I have been taught Ju-Jitsu (although I'm a long way from knowing the art.)
I have also been exposed to Tai Kwon Do, Tai Chi Chuan, Judo and Karate.

>2. what kind of "attribute" each art favours (is it
>better to be strong, or fast, or have quick reflexes
>or what for each particular art)

In all of the disciplines I've mentioned it's better to be smart and be able
to run away very quickly.
Physical advantages for when running is not an option are:
Being very short for Ju-Jitsu &
Having very long, strong & fast legs for Tai Kwon Do.

And important in any art is good footwork.

>3. the nastiest, dirtiest gutter-moves you've been
>taught as part of each art and a brief description of
>how you perform each move (for instance, you're in a
>"kill or be killed" situation, but you don't want to
>kill anyone, just incapacitate and/or maim them - so
>what do you do to them?).

Rather than gutter moves, subtle moves. Ju-Jitsu is a very all round art,
but it's most known for its locks and joint manipulation, any lock (almost)
can be used to "immobilise" an opponent including the infamous "prison
guard's hold" (it does have a Japanese name but...) which apart from being
one of the few locks British prison guards are allowed to use is an
incredibly nasty control lock.
So instead of nasty moves imagine you meet someone for the first time,
they're a big guy and when you shake hands it becomes clear that he's the
sort of person who judges people on their handshakes...
Instead of allowing your knuckles to pop through the back of your hand move
your thumb across to the lower joint of his, at the same time, flex your
hand at the roots of your fingers to put a gap between your palms. Then push
down, try to put your thumb between your hand and theirs. Stop before they
make any totally overt signs of agony and you can say "You know it, I know
it. Noone else needs to so just calm down."

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Message no. 4
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial arts
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:22:34 +0000
>From: JS Bracher <JSB@**************.net>
>Do you know how many martial arts there are? <Snip>

Could you try to avoid top posting please, I knew which questions you were
answering because I'd just done the same myself but placing your reply above
the mail you're replying to makes it difficult to follow. Where possible,
(as it was there) if you can insert your answer underneath the question
you're answering it is a lot easier to understand.

Sorry to jump on your case like that.

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Message no. 5
From: shadowrun@********.demon.co.uk (Andrew Norman)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial arts
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:24:42 +0100
On Thursday 10 Oct 2002 2:01 am, Rand Ratinac wrote:
> As noted, I've got some questions for the martial arts
> gurus on the list. Can you guys give me a list of:
>
> 1. all the different martial arts that you know;

3 years Tae Kwon Do (Blue Belt / Instructor Certification / Judges
Certification)
6 months Judo

Played with Zen Do Kye Freestyle (Spelling?) and military hand-to-hand
combat techniques. Plus a couple of other variants of martial arts during the
many training weekends I've attended.

> 2. what kind of "attribute" each art favours (is it
> better to be strong, or fast, or have quick reflexes
> or what for each particular art);

Tae Kwon Do - Speed and Balance (Strength comes from weight control and
breathing)
Judo - My style was more strength based than anything else but I was slowly
getting to the moves that needed smooth transfer of your/enemies momentum.

> 3. the nastiest, dirtiest gutter-moves you've been
> taught as part of each art and a brief description of
> how you perform each move (for instance, you're in a
> "kill or be killed" situation, but you don't want to
> kill anyone, just incapacitate and/or maim them - so
> what do you do to them?).

Throat punch ... will either kill or incapacitate.
Wrist lock (with optional broken arm)
4 step defensive attack against a charging person, they end up on the floor
with a dislocated shoulder, (possible) broken neck, dislocated knee and if
all goes well out cold.
Generally punching in the right locations to wind or knock out attacker.

-Andrew
Message no. 6
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial arts
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:30:12 +1000 (EST)
I always had "sense of urgency gentleman" yelled at
me If I wasn't quick enough at something, or "kill or
be killed!" If an opponent wasn't disabled fast
enough, also "If you hesitate you die!", "if It
doesn't work the first time round, try something
different", "recover when you falter or your left
open, then your dead!". (GZ)

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Message no. 7
From: john@*****.net (John Constable)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial arts
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:10:37 +0100
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:01 AM
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial arts
gurusamongst us...


> As noted, I've got some questions for the martial arts
> gurus on the list. Can you guys give me a list of:

I'm not a guru, nor do I play one on TV, but I do have 19 years experience
of assorted martial arts so here goes..

>
> 1. all the different martial arts that you know;

Tai Chi Chuan (TaiJi Quan, great ultimate fighting)
Ba Gua Chang (Pa Gua Chang, eight triagram palm)
Hsing I Chuan (Mind/form fighting)
I also do some Wing Chun, but I dont have as much experience, and Christian
has already covered this well in a previous post.. I've done others in the
past as well, but they've also been covered better than I could..


> 2. what kind of "attribute" each art favours (is it
> better to be strong, or fast, or have quick reflexes
> or what for each particular art);

amost all martial arts are well served by all of the above ;-)
Tai Chi emphasises technique over strength, and redirection over
confrontation. As such, you dont have to be strong or fast, but unless
you've trained a lot, a faster fighter is going to overwhelm your reflexes,
but then I guess thats true of any art :-) . In addition, of the differing
styles of Tai Chi, each emphasis different elements, Chen style, for
example, works more on striking, where Wu style practices more throwing,
mainly due to the backgrounds of the original instructors who came to the
original art after studying others (legends of Chan Seng Feng - the
semi-mythical founder notwithstanding), and Yang attempts to mix both, at
least IMHO.
Ba Gua Chang you have to be fairly fast and flexible for; it became famous
around the 1900's when bodygaurds in Beijing had to protect thier charges
(wealthy merchants etc usually) from attacks by packs of starving brigands,
who usually outnumbered the merchants and bodyguards, but had little skill
and or weapons. It
centres around positioning and turning, constantly changing position with
relation to the opponent(s). The strikes are designed to be issued on the
move, and most of the training goes in learning how to do this, and how to
move around people, rather than in a linear fashion.. Those that know both
comment that its approach to movement is like Aikido, altough as thats one
art I've never studied, I couldn't say..
Hsing I empasises leg strength, and a famous quote goes "the opponent can
hit me many times, I only have to hit him once!" it is a mainly linear
style, concentrating on powerfull strikes, and general overpowering moves.

> 3. the nastiest, dirtiest gutter-moves you've been
> taught as part of each art and a brief description of
> how you perform each move (for instance, you're in a
> "kill or be killed" situation, but you don't want to
> kill anyone, just incapacitate and/or maim them - so
> what do you do to them?).

in Tai Chi, my favorite comes from a move called "step back, repulse monkey"
where when the opponent front kicks, you counter by stepping back out of the
way, and bringing your palm down and forwards onto the kicking knee,
blocking the technique, but also possibly dislocating the kneecap and
pushing it up and off the knee. It requires a certain amount of skill to
pull off, though, otherwise you just hit their knee :-) A lot of Tai Chi
applications centre around disabling moves, which is one of the many reasons
you dont see many practitioners in championship contests :-)
Hsing I, turning the hand to deflect a punch, stepping to the side, and
bringing your rear foot up to strike their shin (and if you're really evil
and have the time, sliding down to stamp on thier foot), while allowing
thier forward momentum to bring them onto an incoming punch with the other
hand.
Ba Gua - as the punch, say, comes in, step round the technique, guarding
aginst the punch with the forward hand while the rear one moves up, over,
and down to strike with the heel of the hand onto the temple, or that point
behind the ear Ice Heart menitioned in her email..

> Thanks, guys.

No problem :-) whats it for? not setting up your own "fast & dirty" martil
arts school are you? :-)

--
john@*****.net
Message no. 8
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial arts
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:46:27 +1000 (EST)
Another particularly filthy move I've encountered in
my travels is a head clamp. If you're taller than
someone by a good inch or two, have vast strength or
opponents a lightweight this is devestating to behold.
Opened handed, with 2 handes,clang your palms on
someones ears as if you were gonna burst their
eardrums. Once done this clamp palms on ears &
manetain adequate pressure like a vice, manouver a few
fingers underneath mandible/jaw just behind ear. Don't
let go, proceed to lift manetaining pressure whole
time.

I will never ever use this move again ever, as I
nearly broke the lads neck (experimenting) & It felt
like I could have caved his skull in from pressure I
had to manetain laterally on his ears to lift him with
out hands slipping ( I didn't whack his ears as no
need he was a willing subject. I only lifted him
breifly,like half a sec, not even half an inch off the
ground even before I let go 'cause I could see the
anguish in his eyes, he felt like his ears were
getting ripped off & he was a willing subject for
experiment, never again I say, I could have killed
him). (GZ)

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Message no. 9
From: chipeloi@***.nl (chipeloi@***.nl)
Subject: [OT] He's baaaack! And this time with one for the martial arts
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:33:54 +0200
On 10 Oct 2002 at 2:01, Rand Ratinac wrote:

> As noted, I've got some questions for the martial arts
> gurus on the list. Can you guys give me a list of:
>
> 1. all the different martial arts that you know;
> 2. what kind of "attribute" each art favours (is it
> better to be strong, or fast, or have quick reflexes
> or what for each particular art);
> 3. the nastiest, dirtiest gutter-moves you've been
> taught as part of each art and a brief description of
> how you perform each move (for instance, you're in a
> "kill or be killed" situation, but you don't want to
> kill anyone, just incapacitate and/or maim them - so
> what do you do to them?).
>
> Thanks, guys.
>

Hmmm the only training i got was about 1 year of judo
And then 4 years of torenvlied

Toren vlied is a special school of training, its a "normal"school but with kids
who have
learning disabilaty's and are not so social, so fights would break out a lot

I learned that almost any martial art is beateble with the stuf i learned the hard way
Just judo and any other sport that teatches stuf that work on the ground

The main thing i learned is : all those sports teatch ppl stiles and technics and if they
are
not adapting to the stile the other person(S) is using your a dead duck
And you need to learn at least 2 or more stiles to realy have any effect
Becose you are thought to see the strikes and defences of a oponent, but if that person
doesn't have these and uses stuf that you are thought to be either very stupit or suisidal


Ive been attacked by a lot of ppl who trained in martial arts i beat them all in a very
simple way:
Going for there neck, jump ontop of them get hit maby once twice and then use strenght
and mass to get them to the floor and start beating them the hard way no fair stuff if i
can hit someone in the balls a couple of times i wil, if you back of, he's going to see it
as
a weaknes (and so wil his friends and they might diside to jump in)

The only time i got into serius problems was with a guy who had ninjutsu for 6 years and
judo for 8, i was down and almost out within 6 seconds after i tried to rab his neck

So what i'm trying to say is: only the ppl who have had training 5 times a week for 8
years + are going to realy use there techniceus, sure you can scream and shout all you
want that its not treu, and with one punch your going to put my lights out
But ive had a lot of ppl say that to me =)

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