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Message no. 1
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: shadowdawn
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:02:00 -0400
Zach wrote:
[snip]
>Since Horrors were creatures from.. well.. i don't
>know where they were from.. but could there be a scourge in shadowrun?
>That'd be fun to play around with.. hmm..

Yecch. Not in any game I'd play in. I prefer cyberpunk; Earthdawn with
submachine guns instead of swords isn't very appealing to me. Luckily my
current gm has the same bias :) Terry

Terry L. Amburgey Email: xanth@***.uky.edu
Associate Professor Phone: (606) 257-7726
College of Business and Economics Fax: (606) 257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Message no. 2
From: Zach Hall <fdelirum@****.net>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:19:42 -0400
>Yecch. Not in any game I'd play in. I prefer cyberpunk; Earthdawn with
>submachine guns instead of swords isn't very appealing to me. Luckily my
>current gm has the same bias :) Terry

Earthdawn with submachine guns would be a little drastic.. nothing
so innocent in atmosphere as Earthdawn could be in Shadowrun. I was also
wondering what decides the changing point of one world to another world (5th
world to the 6th world), and if so what happened to so drastically change
the 4th world to the 5th world compared to the change of the 5th to the 6th..

+-- - - - - ---- - - - - - -- - - - - -- ---+
| Zach Hall Unravel me from this shroud of indifference |
' fdelirum@****.net ' i want to clear my eyes -- breath in clean air |
' home.rica.net/fdelirum | i want to remember how wonderful life is. '
- - -- - - - - --+-- - - - -- --- -- - - - -- - -
Message no. 3
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:13:09 -0500
> I was also wondering what decides the changing point of one world to another
> world (5th world to the 6th world), and if so what happened to so drastically
> change the 4th world to the 5th world compared to the change of the 5th to the
> 6th..

I'm going from memory, and the "end" of Earthdawn isn't something FASA is
likely to publish anytime soon, but I believe the end of the fourth age is dated from
the expolosion of Thera (Atlantis). Note that there are several hints in ED that
Thera is heavily dependant on magic for it's very existance, and so a drop in the
magic level would be catastrophic.

It has also been revealed (or at least hinted at) what is keeping the magic level
high in ED and what is bringing the horrors quicker in SR:

********* SPOILER ALERT ********* SPOILER ALERT ******************

















It's Blood Magic!
There is a "natural" level of magic in the world, one that comes and goes with
the
ages. In addition, blood magic pumps up the magic level more than is "natural".

In ED, Thera is using massive blood magic to sustain itself (sacrificing slaves).
In ShadowRun, Aztlan is doing similar things (or so I've heard, I don't have that
sourcebook) and the Great Ghost Dance was actually a form of blood magic.
Also, the Tirs (expecially Tir Na Nog) are working powerful magics which as a
side effect are raising the magic level.

One ED conjecture: There is a legend about when enough blood is spilled, that
burning sea will go out (and death will be freed?) Could this be related?

BTW, it doesn't take to much conjecturing to figure out the end of Thera. The
base magic level is gradually dropping lower and lower. The amount of blood
magic necessary to sustain their lifestyle is getting higher and higher. At some
point, the supply of slaves to Thera will get cut off or simply not equal demand and
Thera will sink into the sea. At this point, the amount of blood magic being done
goes way down and the magic level of the planet drops like a snapped rubber
band. Imagine what would happen if all the engines and motors of the world
stopped suddenly on the same day, and electricity didn't work any more too...
The magic going away would be like that. The supportable population of the
planet would suddenly be much less, which means famine and massive die-offs.
When you lose a large proportion of a population, nobody cares about
unimportant things like books or education: its a struggle to feed yourself. A dark
age, with almost no memory of what went before. The birth pains of the fifth
age...

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 4
From: Marc Lipshitz <MLIPSHIT@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:11:16 +0200
Zach wrote:
[snip]
>Since Horrors were creatures from.. well.. i don't
>know where they were from.. but could there be a scourge in
shadowrun?
>That'd be fun to play around with.. hmm..

What I don't get is this tying in of the horrors to shadowrun. The cycles
seem to take about 6000 years each. In Earthdawn the people lived in
their Caers for about 400 years( or somewhere in that region, can't
remeber the exact number offhand) while the scourge occured. Now by
my calculations that meens there is about 2000 years on either side of
that of increasing and decreasing magic. So I can't see how the horrors
would be coming through so soon. Even the minor horros in Earthdawn
only started appearing a couple of centuries before the main scourge
began. After all, people had over a century to prepare and build huge
elaborate structures. I reckon that the sixth wouldn't be seeing horrors
for another four or five hundred years at the minimum. Anyone out there
got a campaign running in that time frame:)

Marc
Message no. 5
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:37:44 GMT
Mike Elkins writes

> but I believe the end of the fourth age is dated from
> the expolosion of Thera (Atlantis).
correct see 'Ehran to Young elven technologists' a FASA flyer but
also in game on shadowland.
See also the comment in 'cybertechnology' about the explosive end to
things, the file on this in threats points out the correct section
very nicely.

>
> It has also been revealed (or at least hinted at) what is keeping the magic level
> high in ED and what is bringing the horrors quicker in SR:
>
> ********* SPOILER ALERT ********* SPOILER ALERT ******************
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It's Blood Magic!
> There is a "natural" level of magic in the world, one that comes and goes
with the
> ages. In addition, blood magic pumps up the magic level more than is
"natural".
> In ED, Thera is using massive blood magic to sustain itself (sacrificing slaves).
> In ShadowRun, Aztlan is doing similar things (or so I've heard, I don't have that
> sourcebook)
consider it very confirmed. Have a look at 'blood mage gesalt' in
threats, then go find something big (rouge asteroid would do best,
even thermonukes are underkill) and sort out Atzlan. This confirms
the immortals worst fears (see atzlan chat if you can)

> and the Great Ghost Dance was actually a form of blood magic.
and despite what too many folks think just as bad for spikes despite
its 'nicer' intentions.

> Also, the Tirs (expecially Tir Na Nog) are working powerful magics which as a
> side effect are raising the magic level.
>
Add tibet at least to that list.

> One ED conjecture: There is a legend about when enough blood is spilled, that
> burning sea will go out (and death will be freed?) Could this be related?
>
possibly. I haven't seen any game level stuff about that.
It does require the 13th pasion be Death, in which case what about
the 14th one (isis, from Black Madona)

> BTW, it doesn't take to much conjecturing to figure out the end of Thera. The
> base magic level is gradually dropping lower and lower. The amount of blood
> magic necessary to sustain their lifestyle is getting higher and higher. At some
> point, the supply of slaves to Thera will get cut off or simply not equal demand and
> Thera will sink into the sea. At this point, the amount of blood magic being done
> goes way down and the magic level of the planet drops like a snapped rubber
> band. Imagine what would happen if all the engines and motors of the world
> stopped suddenly on the same day, and electricity didn't work any more too...
> The magic going away would be like that. The supportable population of the
> planet would suddenly be much less, which means famine and massive die-offs.
> When you lose a large proportion of a population, nobody cares about
> unimportant things like books or education: its a struggle to feed yourself. A dark
> age, with almost no memory of what went before. The birth pains of the fifth
> age...
>
That explains how ED could be SR's past as it gives an excuse for why
so much got lost. Though it parrallels the loss of technology in
Battletech due to the chaos from the succession wars rather, reusing
old ideas FASA? (ok it works)

> Double-Domed Mike
>
>

Mark
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 20:53:48 +1100
>What I don't get is this tying in of the horrors to shadowrun. The cycles
>seem to take about 6000 years each. In Earthdawn the people lived in
>their Caers for about 400 years( or somewhere in that region, can't
>remeber the exact number offhand) while the scourge occured. Now by
>my calculations that meens there is about 2000 years on either side of
>that of increasing and decreasing magic. So I can't see how the horrors
>would be coming through so soon. Even the minor horros in Earthdawn
>only started appearing a couple of centuries before the main scourge
>began. After all, people had over a century to prepare and build huge
>elaborate structures. I reckon that the sixth wouldn't be seeing horrors
>for another four or five hundred years at the minimum. Anyone out there
>got a campaign running in that time frame:)

They can get here a LOT earlier 'cause the great ghost dance raised the
level of magic THERE to nearly ED levels. And, unlike other times, they
are actively working to get here, 'cause the early arrival will make a
BIG difference.

As for the time frame: the invae reached the ED world only a few hundred
years before the scourge. They got to SR about 10 years after the Great
Ghost Dance, if the UB story is the earliest. Even if you aren't
concerned about the horrors, the presence of horror constructs, horror
converts (eg, the blood magic of Aztlan, possibly), and such all make for
elements of a powerful magic campaign. If that's what you want.



--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 7
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:03:17 -0400 (EDT)
At 03:19 PM 7/16/96 -0400, Zach wrote:

>I was also wondering what decides the changing point of one world to another
>world (5th world to the 6th world), and if so what happened to so drastically
>change the 4th world to the 5th world compared to the change of the 5th to the
>6th..

The change between the nth and (n+1)th is determined by the level of magic.
We don't know what happened at the end of the 4th worldyet, although it is
possible that some races became extinct.

--
"You cannot escape. Everyday a part of you turns to shit."
Message no. 8
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:45:24 -0500 (CDT)
> The change between the nth and (n+1)th is determined by the level of magic.
> We don't know what happened at the end of the 4th worldyet, although it is
> possible that some races became extinct.

Wasn't that the point of the mayan long count. The change between worlds
was an apocalypse event, and only the strongest made if from world to
world, what with new creatures appearing to fight for the same niche?
Message no. 9
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:35:34 -0500 (CDT)
On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Marc Lipshitz wrote:

>
>
> Zach wrote:
> [snip]
> >Since Horrors were creatures from.. well.. i don't
> >know where they were from.. but could there be a scourge in
> shadowrun?
> >That'd be fun to play around with.. hmm..
>
> What I don't get is this tying in of the horrors to shadowrun. The cycles
> seem to take about 6000 years each. In Earthdawn the people lived in
> their Caers for about 400 years( or somewhere in that region, can't
> remeber the exact number offhand) while the scourge occured. Now by
> my calculations that meens there is about 2000 years on either side of
> that of increasing and decreasing magic. So I can't see how the horrors
> would be coming through so soon. Even the minor horros in Earthdawn
> only started appearing a couple of centuries before the main scourge
> began. After all, people had over a century to prepare and build huge
> elaborate structures. I reckon that the sixth wouldn't be seeing horrors
> for another four or five hundred years at the minimum. Anyone out there
> got a campaign running in that time frame:)
>
> Marc

You know I just had an evil thought since a laser beam is still
"attached" to the gun that fires it wouldn't it count as a direct
application of will? Looks like FASAMike is in for a fun time...

Stephen
Austin, TX

>
>
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 21:43:21 +1100
>You know I just had an evil thought since a laser beam is still
>"attached" to the gun that fires it wouldn't it count as a direct
>application of will? Looks like FASAMike is in for a fun time...

No, it isn't... A laser beam isn't like a sword, you know. Just because
the beam is still shining when the leading edge hits the target doesn't
mean it's attached to the gun.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 11
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 08:41:00 PDT
> >You know I just had an evil thought since a laser beam is still
> >"attached" to the gun that fires it wouldn't it count as a direct
> >application of will? Looks like FASAMike is in for a fun time...
>
> No, it isn't... A laser beam isn't like a sword, you know. Just
because
> the beam is still shining when the leading edge hits the target doesn't

> mean it's attached to the gun.

What about the Laser Crescent Axe? It's a melee weapon, yet
it's a welding laser that's doing the actual damage...

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 12
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 19:37:45 +0000
On 17 Jul 96 at 16:35, Stephen Delear wrote:
[Horrors and ED stuff snipped]
> You know I just had an evil thought since a laser beam is still
> "attached" to the gun that fires it wouldn't it count as a direct
> application of will? Looks like FASAMike is in for a fun time...

What?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 22:24:24 +1100
>What about the Laser Crescent Axe? It's a melee weapon, yet
>it's a welding laser that's doing the actual damage...

Oh, yeah, uh? Then why is the damage code so shitty? I mean, it weighs
twice as much as the combat axe, and doesn't do any more damage. Not to
mention how "easy it is to knock the laser out of alignment".

The Laser Crescent axe is an overweight, flashy axe for poseurs. The
damage is done by the blade, not the laser.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 14
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 13:07:03 EST
Sorry, lasers available in sr are PULSE lasers.
Neat idea though, I wonder if there is a dm anywhere that will allow
it... most treat spirits as their long lost children....
F.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: shadowdawn -Reply
Author: shadowrn@********.itribe.net at Internet
Date: 17-7-96 17:56




On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Marc Lipshitz wrote:

>
>
> Zach wrote:
> [snip]
> >Since Horrors were creatures from.. well.. i don't
> >know where they were from.. but could there be a scourge in
> shadowrun?
> >That'd be fun to play around with.. hmm..
>
> What I don't get is this tying in of the horrors to shadowrun. The cycles
> seem to take about 6000 years each. In Earthdawn the people lived in
> their Caers for about 400 years( or somewhere in that region, can't
> remeber the exact number offhand) while the scourge occured. Now by
> my calculations that meens there is about 2000 years on either side of
> that of increasing and decreasing magic. So I can't see how the horrors
> would be coming through so soon. Even the minor horros in Earthdawn
> only started appearing a couple of centuries before the main scourge
> began. After all, people had over a century to prepare and build huge
> elaborate structures. I reckon that the sixth wouldn't be seeing horrors
> for another four or five hundred years at the minimum. Anyone out there
> got a campaign running in that time frame:)
>
> Marc

You know I just had an evil thought since a laser beam is still
"attached" to the gun that fires it wouldn't it count as a direct
application of will? Looks like FASAMike is in for a fun time...

Stephen
Austin, TX

>
>
Message no. 15
From: Elfman <elfman@*********.net>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:35:12 -0700 (PDT)
At 09:03 17-07-96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 03:19 PM 7/16/96 -0400, Zach wrote:
>
>>I was also wondering what decides the changing point of one world to another
>>world (5th world to the 6th world), and if so what happened to so drastically
>>change the 4th world to the 5th world compared to the change of the 5th to
the
>>6th..
>
>The change between the nth and (n+1)th is determined by the level of magic.
>We don't know what happened at the end of the 4th worldyet, although it is
>possible that some races became extinct.

Its a "you dont know it happened until you look back on it" kind of thing.
When Jesus was born, nobody (at the time) said "Ah, this is the dawn off an
entirely new culture, lets call this year 1", but some centuries later a pope
said, "this was a crucial event, lets back date our calendar to it."

Looking back, scholars decided the new world (6th world) began 24 Dec, 2011,
the
day at least two dragon (one in Japan, one in Wales or Scotland) appeared. Dont
have my timeline handy, but I also think some kind of major magical
happening was
this day, (not the GGD). I believe some on the list have suggested the 5th
world
(ours) started when Thoria (Alantis) sank.

Of course all of this is from memory, and i could be totally wrong 8-)

Sgt Pepper

Visit me at ELFMAN'S WORLD, http://home.earthlink.net/~elfman/

GeekCodev3.0
GM/ED d- s+: g+ a26 c++ u- P? L E? W !N K- w+ M-- V+ PS+ PE Y+ PGP-
t+ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b+(++) DI d G e++(+++) h+ r++(+++) y+
Message no. 16
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 13:23:00 PDT
> >What about the Laser Crescent Axe? It's a melee weapon, yet
> >it's a welding laser that's doing the actual damage...
>
> Oh, yeah, uh? Then why is the damage code so shitty? I mean, it weighs

Huh? The Ares MP-III only does M...

> twice as much as the combat axe, and doesn't do any more damage. Not to

> mention how "easy it is to knock the laser out of alignment".

That's a comment and thus completely unreliable (ie it should
be read as a suggestion to the GM for when the character botches)

> The Laser Crescent axe is an overweight, flashy axe for poseurs. The
> damage is done by the blade, not the laser.

OK, so the weapon sucks. However, since there *is* no blade
(only "a crescent shaped mounting"), the laser must be doing
the damage.

The question is how does this affect a spirit, since the solid
part of the weapon should never actually come into contact with
the spirit, and yet it is a melee weapon (ie not ranged), and
so according to the rules carries the full force of the user's
will.

So I guess the real question is: at what point does laser
damage cease to carry the wielder's full will?

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right
now, so if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 17
From: mike.paff@*****.com
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 10:37:19 -0700
> From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
> > >What about the Laser Crescent Axe? It's a melee weapon, yet
> > >it's a welding laser that's doing the actual damage...
>
[snip]
>
> > The Laser Crescent axe is an overweight, flashy axe for poseurs. The
> > damage is done by the blade, not the laser.
>
> OK, so the weapon sucks. However, since there *is* no blade
> (only "a crescent shaped mounting"), the laser must be doing
> the damage.
>
> The question is how does this affect a spirit, since the solid
> part of the weapon should never actually come into contact with
> the spirit, and yet it is a melee weapon (ie not ranged), and
> so according to the rules carries the full force of the user's
> will.
>
> So I guess the real question is: at what point does laser
> damage cease to carry the wielder's full will?
>
I seem to remember a statement about technological improvements
to a weapon (i.e. Dikote) not applying in combat vs spirits.
If you define the laser as a technological improvement, then
the Laser Crescent axe would be treated as a club.

Mike
Message no. 18
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 15:34:00 PDT
[various bits hacked out almost at random]
> > > >What about the Laser Crescent Axe? It's a melee weapon, yet
> > > >it's a welding laser that's doing the actual damage...
> > The question is how does this affect a spirit, since the solid
> > part of the weapon should never actually come into contact with
> > the spirit, and yet it is a melee weapon (ie not ranged), and
> > so according to the rules carries the full force of the user's
> > will.
>
> I seem to remember a statement about technological improvements
> to a weapon (i.e. Dikote) not applying in combat vs spirits.
> If you define the laser as a technological improvement, then
> the Laser Crescent axe would be treated as a club.

Well, the Cougar Fineblade is a technological improvement over
a regular knife (using "sota molecular binding" etc).

A regular knife (carbon steel) is a technological improvement
over normal steel. A normal steel blade is an improvement over
bronze. Bronze is an improvement over obsidian.

Reductio ad absurdum, a cougar fineblade should probably do
(str-3)L, if that, according to that! I really hope that that
is not an actual rule. It would also make guns worse than
useless against a spirit: "OK, I point my Tube With a Rock In
at the spirit, and say 'Bang!'" :-)

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 19
From: Dan Robson <tene@****.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 21:10:57 +0100
In article <199607191435.HAA12941@***********.it.earthlink.net>, Elfman
<elfman@*********.net> writes
>
>Looking back, scholars decided the new world (6th world) began 24 Dec, 2011,
>the
>day at least two dragon (one in Japan, one in Wales or Scotland) appeared. Dont
>have my timeline handy, but I also think some kind of major magical
>happening was
>this day, (not the GGD). I believe some on the list have suggested the 5th
>world
>(ours) started when Thoria (Alantis) sank.
>
That rings a bell...I read _somewhere_ that the Awakening ie Change from
5th to 6th World was measured by the Awakening of the first Great
Dracoform, and that the end of the 4th was measured by the hibernation
of the last great Dracoform...
Ehran's "Humans and the Cycle of Magic" speel wasn't it?

Eternal Tenebreux AKA Dan Robson

Je suis le tenebreux, le veuf, l'inconsole,
Le prince d'Aquitaine a la tour abolie:
Ma seule etoile est mort, et mon luth constelle
Porte le soleil noir de la Melancoile

(This has been brutalized by the necessity of removing
the accent on some of the vowels)
Message no. 20
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 12:17:40 +0100
Ojaste,James [NCR] said on 13:23/19 Jul 96...

> The question is how does this affect a spirit, since the solid
> part of the weapon should never actually come into contact with
> the spirit, and yet it is a melee weapon (ie not ranged), and
> so according to the rules carries the full force of the user's
> will.
>
> So I guess the real question is: at what point does laser
> damage cease to carry the wielder's full will?

You seem to be forgetting the point that it's all a matter of believing in
what you're doing. A dull, medieval broadsword is just as effective
against a spirit as a nAres monosword, simply because they're both
"swords." Likewise, the laser crescent axe, combat axe, and woodcutter's
axe are all "axes" and so are equally effective against spirits.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I've often tried to hold the sea, the sun, the fields, the tide.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 21
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 19:08:55 +1100
>OK, so the weapon sucks. However, since there *is* no blade
>(only "a crescent shaped mounting"), the laser must be doing
>the damage.

Last time I looked it was rather tricky making a laser go around in
curves with a mechanism that would survive a couple of good solid hits.
Now, I wonder, is there any chance that the "crescent shaped mounting
which keeps the weapon from snagging" is sharpened?

Look at the picture. It's got a great big solid thing that looks a heck
of a lot like an axe head to me.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 22
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 19:08:48 +1100
>Reductio ad absurdum, a cougar fineblade should probably do
>(str-3)L, if that, according to that! I really hope that that
>is not an actual rule. It would also make guns worse than
>useless against a spirit: "OK, I point my Tube With a Rock In
>at the spirit, and say 'Bang!'" :-)

Guns are pretty close to being worse than useless against a spirit...
It's that Immunity to Ranged Weapons thing.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 23
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 10:44:00 EST
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Author: shadowrn@********.itribe.net at Internet
Date: 20-7-96 06:23

Gurth@******.nl wrote:
<snip>


You seem to be forgetting the point that it's all a matter of believing in
what you're doing. A dull, medieval broadsword is just as effective
against a spirit as a nAres monosword, simply because they're both
"swords." Likewise, the laser crescent axe, combat axe, and woodcutter's
axe are all "axes" and so are equally effective against spirits.

- - -

Yeah sure.... I wonder if you'd allow an old rusty medieval
sword to do str+3 M vs a spirit....
And what about an impressive looking toy sword [plastic] ?
And if it is all about believing in what you are doing,
then:1) why is the damage str-based? I don't see willpower in there?
Trolls with willpower 1 do more dmg vs a
2) A friend pointed out to me that officially spirits with
weapon immunity have it vs all normal [non-weapon-foci] weapons, so
melee weapons too.[see sr2 base rules, though I believe this to be a
typo] So just shoot the thingie, if it survives your shot it'd also
have survived a chop with your trusty weapon.

Ferri
Message no. 24
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 08:44:00 PDT
Gurth wrote:
> Ojaste,James [NCR] said on 13:23/19 Jul 96...
>
> > So I guess the real question is: at what point does laser
> > damage cease to carry the wielder's full will?
>
> You seem to be forgetting the point that it's all a matter of believing
in
> what you're doing. A dull, medieval broadsword is just as effective
> against a spirit as a nAres monosword, simply because they're both
> "swords." Likewise, the laser crescent axe, combat axe, and
woodcutter's
> axe are all "axes" and so are equally effective against spirits.

But since these weapons all have different damage codes, as
well as the fact that these spirits are manifesting, the
physical ability of the weapon to damage must be accounted
for somewhere. What if you attacked a spirit with a weapon
that the character truly believes does (str)S, when it really
does (str-3)L (a practice axe, for instance). Does it do
(str)S against the spirit's physical form?

To put it another way: If a tree falls on a spirit, and
nobody is there to believe in it, how much damage does the
spirit take?

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 25
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 08:50:00 PDT
> Last time I looked it was rather tricky making a laser go around in
> curves with a mechanism that would survive a couple of good solid hits.


Just put the laser generator along the shaft, and have a
prismatic mirror at the head of the axe, attach a motor to
spin the mirror to cover the prescribed arc.

> Now, I wonder, is there any chance that the "crescent shaped mounting
> which keeps the weapon from snagging" is sharpened?

It shouldn't be. In fact, the mounting should cover both
sides of the laser, which would make a really bad combat axe.

> Look at the picture. It's got a great big solid thing that looks a heck

> of a lot like an axe head to me.

The crescent looks more like plexiglass to me. The big lumpy
thing on the back of the axe head is probably where the laser
is.

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 26
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 11:27:11 GMT
Dan Robson writes

> >(ours) started when Thoria (Alantis) sank.
> >
> That rings a bell...I read _somewhere_ that the Awakening ie Change from
> 5th to 6th World was measured by the Awakening of the first Great
> Dracoform,
correct. The one seen over Japan, forgot the name.

> and that the end of the 4th was measured by the hibernation
> of the last great Dracoform...

> Ehran's "Humans and the Cycle of Magic" speel wasn't it?
>
Yes but they used the date Atlantis (Thera to be a little more
accurate) sank (Yeah Ehran, blew up more like) to mark the end of the
fourth world.

Spoilers for refs.















Atlantis / Thera. See also p63 or 64 of 'A killing glare' try the ED
boxed set on the place, or the comment in 'cybertechnology about the
'island on a world' [pointed out in threats, but some of us guessed a
long time ago] And the 'Atlean conspiracy', also threats.

Mark
Message no. 27
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:27:22 +0100
Ojaste,James [NCR] said on 8:44/22 Jul 96...

> But since these weapons all have different damage codes, as
> well as the fact that these spirits are manifesting, the
> physical ability of the weapon to damage must be accounted
> for somewhere. What if you attacked a spirit with a weapon
> that the character truly believes does (str)S, when it really
> does (str-3)L (a practice axe, for instance). Does it do
> (str)S against the spirit's physical form?

I'd say it does. It's an axe, and that's all that matters. Of course if
it's some soft plastic replica toy axe it wouldn't do the spirit any harm
because then it's a toy axe, but any real axe is a real axe as far as
hitting a spirit is concerned, plain and simple. The only thing of
relevance here, IMHO, is the individual GM's decision on what damage a
"typical axe" does. Since both published axes do (str)S, I would rule in
my game that it does (str)S.

> To put it another way: If a tree falls on a spirit, and
> nobody is there to believe in it, how much damage does the
> spirit take?

All colors. Oh wait, that's from The Secret Of Monkey Island, isn't it? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can trademark anything you want, as long as you can get someone to
believe it.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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Message no. 28
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:27:22 +0100
Ferri Pagano said on 10:44/22 Jul 96...

> Yeah sure.... I wonder if you'd allow an old rusty medieval
> sword to do str+3 M vs a spirit....

No, I'd make it do (str+2)M.

> And what about an impressive looking toy sword [plastic] ?

As I said in another post, a toy sword is not a sword but a toy sword.
Sicn toy swords are not meant to kill things, the spirit won't be bothered
more by it than you will be if someone hits you with it. IOW: (str)L
Stun or something.

> And if it is all about believing in what you are doing,
> then:1) why is the damage str-based? I don't see willpower in there?
> Trolls with willpower 1 do more dmg vs a

You could argue that it's your belief in your own strength that allows
you to hurt that spirit so much with your bare hands, although I suggest
you ask this to the ex-DLOH, not me. You are right, IMHO; I would
probably have made it Willpower-based too if I had written those rules.
Or perhaps average of Strength and Willpower.

> 2) A friend pointed out to me that officially spirits with
> weapon immunity have it vs all normal [non-weapon-foci] weapons, so
> melee weapons too.[see sr2 base rules, though I believe this to be a
> typo] So just shoot the thingie, if it survives your shot it'd also
> have survived a chop with your trusty weapon.

Spirits do not get Immunity To Normal Weapons power. They get a modified
version of it, and only when they are physically manifesting. The
modification consists of making them only "immune" (not really, as it just
makes it easier for them to resist the attack) to ranged weapons, and not
to melee attacks.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can trademark anything you want, as long as you can get someone to
believe it.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 29
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 18:01:14 +1100
>> Last time I looked it was rather tricky making a laser go around in
>> curves with a mechanism that would survive a couple of good solid hits.
>
>Just put the laser generator along the shaft, and have a
>prismatic mirror at the head of the axe, attach a motor to
>spin the mirror to cover the prescribed arc.

And how many good solid hits would this motor and mirror take?


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 30
From: Wynd <jeltzz@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:12:50 +1000
Gurth wrote:


> > And if it is all about believing in what you are doing,
> > then:1) why is the damage str-based? I don't see willpower in there?
> > Trolls with willpower 1 do more dmg vs a
>
> You could argue that it's your belief in your own strength that allows
> you to hurt that spirit so much with your bare hands, although I suggest
> you ask this to the ex-DLOH, not me. You are right, IMHO; I would
> probably have made it Willpower-based too if I had written those rules.
> Or perhaps average of Strength and Willpower.

When we first started we made the mistake of using Willpower (M) as a damage
code, and using a normal skill. The problem is that the more trained you
are, the more you can focus your will. The only pure will based result
would be to roll willpower and use it as the power level as well, but
that just won't work. We've decided to continue with our mistake as a
house rule, until such point as we find something better.

--
Wynd, the Zen-Taoist-Celtic Mystic-Poet-Philosopher-Warrior-Dude
<jeltzz@*******.com.au>
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jeltzz

"For I am known, | "The Ravens took flight,
As the Fallen One, | and the sky, just moments Winter's white
He-Who-Walks-Alone, | turned black, as if night had descended"
Under Star, Moon and Sun." | - Flight of the Ravens
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message no. 31
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 08:41:00 PDT
> >Just put the laser generator along the shaft, and have a
> >prismatic mirror at the head of the axe, attach a motor to
> >spin the mirror to cover the prescribed arc.
>
> And how many good solid hits would this motor and mirror take?

I'd worry more about the motor than the mirror (which isn't
just a flat piece of glass, but more like an octagonal
cylinder (well, not quite, but you know what I mean).

It'd be pretty hard to knock the mirror out of alignment -
I'd be more worried about the motor (which wouldn't have
to be at all powerful - the mirror'd be quite light).
So, put a half inch of steel around the casing, and it'll
be fine. The jarring shouldn't affect anything (provided
the axe wasn't Made in Hong Kong).

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 32
From: sinless@**.netcom.com (Ross Hammer)
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 13:28:56 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
>>> Last time I looked it was rather tricky making a laser go around in
>>> curves with a mechanism that would survive a couple of good solid hits.
>>
>>Just put the laser generator along the shaft, and have a
>>prismatic mirror at the head of the axe, attach a motor to
>>spin the mirror to cover the prescribed arc.
>
>And how many good solid hits would this motor and mirror take?
>

Rather than using the motor & mirror, how about a high-quality plas-steel lense
that would be built into the blade. The lense would bend the laser at a TIGHT
angle and focus it directly beyond the edge of the material blade. At this
extreme angle, the dispersion beyond the focal point (in this case, not a point,
but an arc) would cause the potency to drop to negligible amounts in a short
distance.
The two problems with this would be:
If the laser is strong enough to cut through armor, then the dispersion
*might* not be fast enough... then again, you can cook your meals with you axe in
that case!
If it is a visible laser (ie red or violet or something) then your blinding a
lot of people (passible including yourself) in your immediate area with this
superpowerful "flashlight". It also becomes a beacon for any and all of your
enemies to home in on. Even if the laser is in the infra-red or ultra-violet
range, most any decent street samurai has an infra-red eye enhancment, not to
mention the infra-red goggles, etc. and as for UV, well, that might be the safest
way to go... except everyone will get sunburns (or tans!) when ever you turn on
your axe... and I personally (when playing a street samurai) like to special
order UV sights and/or goggles and/or eye enhancments... ;)

-SINless
Message no. 33
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 19:17:20 +1100
>It'd be pretty hard to knock the mirror out of alignment -
>I'd be more worried about the motor (which wouldn't have
>to be at all powerful - the mirror'd be quite light).
>So, put a half inch of steel around the casing, and it'll
>be fine. The jarring shouldn't affect anything (provided
>the axe wasn't Made in Hong Kong).

Hmm... half an inch of steel. Maybe THAT'S why it weighs so much.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 34
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 08:16:00 PDT
> >So, put a half inch of steel around the casing, and it'll
> >be fine. The jarring shouldn't affect anything (provided
> >the axe wasn't Made in Hong Kong).
>
> Hmm... half an inch of steel. Maybe THAT'S why it weighs so much.

Well, the whole mechanism would be smaller than a
coffee mug... If you learn to use an axe normally,
you expect the weight of a normal axe-head on the
end, so something has to provide that extra weight.

James

--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 35
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:36:49 -0500 (CDT)
> > That rings a bell...I read _somewhere_ that the Awakening ie Change from
> > 5th to 6th World was measured by the Awakening of the first Great
> > Dracoform,
> correct. The one seen over Japan, forgot the name.
Ryumyo?
Message no. 36
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:59:02 -0500 (CDT)
On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Gurth wrote:

>
> You could argue that it's your belief in your own strength that allows
> you to hurt that spirit so much with your bare hands, although I suggest
> you ask this to the ex-DLOH, not me. You are right, IMHO; I would
> probably have made it Willpower-based too if I had written those rules.
> Or perhaps average of Strength and Willpower.

what about a mix of Charisma (astral strength) and Str?
Message no. 37
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:31:13 +0100
Brian Johnson said on 16:59/25 Jul 96...

> > You could argue that it's your belief in your own strength that allows
> > you to hurt that spirit so much with your bare hands, although I suggest
> > you ask this to the ex-DLOH, not me. You are right, IMHO; I would
> > probably have made it Willpower-based too if I had written those rules.
> > Or perhaps average of Strength and Willpower.
>
> what about a mix of Charisma (astral strength) and Str?

In NAGEE 3 is an article that totally alters the way you hurt spirits,
but it's for SR1 (with a separate Staging stat). It always looked sort of
good to me, but I've never tried adapting it to SR2.

It comes down to attacking using Conjuring skill, and then using your
Charisma as the Power, and your Willpower for Wound Level (divide by 2
and round down), and your Essence divided by 2 (down) is the Staging

If you don't use Conjuring skill to attack, you follow the normal rules
for attacking a spirit.

To adapt it to SR2, I suggest just dropping the Staging, or maybe adding
Charisma and Essence together and dividing by 4 to find the Power Level.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Look at my cat... Why can't I live like that?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 38
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: shadowdawn
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:03:58 GMT
Brian Johnson writes
>
> > > That rings a bell...I read _somewhere_ that the Awakening ie Change from
> > > 5th to 6th World was measured by the Awakening of the first Great
> > > Dracoform,
> > correct. The one seen over Japan, forgot the name.
> Ryumyo?
>
sounds familiar. i think you are correct.

Mark
Message no. 39
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: RE: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 16:56:12 +1100
>Well, the whole mechanism would be smaller than a
>coffee mug... If you learn to use an axe normally,
>you expect the weight of a normal axe-head on the
>end, so something has to provide that extra weight.

You might want to remember you need the laser there, too... Actually,
considering the laser is what is meant to be doing all the cutting, AND
that the whole arrangement is fairly fragile, I'd want it to be as light
as possible. Why? A: I can swing it faster, bring it around to defend
better, and all that. B) It means it doesn't hit things as hard, so it's
not as likely to break.

If it feels different to a normal axe, you just learn to fight with it
again.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 40
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[4]: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 11:08:30 EST
On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Gurth wrote:

>
> You could argue that it's your belief in your own strength that allows
> you to hurt that spirit so much with your bare hands, although I suggest
> you ask this to the ex-DLOH, not me. You are right, IMHO; I would
> probably have made it Willpower-based too if I had written those rules.
> Or perhaps average of Strength and Willpower.

what about a mix of Charisma (astral strength) and Str?


---------------
I L O V E that idea!!!!, I really like to punish my munchkin players for taking
charisma 1 at character creation......
Now where was that rating 8 mantis spirit.... ;>

F.
Message no. 41
From: Wynd <jeltzz@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:04:57 +1000
Ferri Pagano wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Gurth wrote:
> > You could argue that it's your belief in your own strength that allows
> > you to hurt that spirit so much with your bare hands, although I suggest
> > you ask this to the ex-DLOH, not me. You are right, IMHO; I would
> > probably have made it Willpower-based too if I had written those rules.
> > Or perhaps average of Strength and Willpower.
>
> what about a mix of Charisma (astral strength) and Str?
>

How about rolling Willpower, and using average of Charisma and Essence.
This would mean that Physical strength is not important. Also, purely
cosmetic charisma enchancements, eg tailored pheremones, don't count
as it's more about your self-confidence, etc..

--
Wynd, the Zen-Taoist-Celtic Mystic-Poet-Philosopher-Warrior-Dude
<jeltzz@*******.com.au>
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jeltzz

"For I am known, | "The Ravens took flight,
As the Fallen One, | and the sky, just moments Winter's white
He-Who-Walks-Alone, | turned black, as if night had descended"
Under Star, Moon and Sun." | - Flight of the Ravens
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message no. 42
From: Wynd <jeltzz@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Re[4]: shadowdawn -Reply
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:04:57 +1000
Ferri Pagano wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Gurth wrote:
> > You could argue that it's your belief in your own strength that allows
> > you to hurt that spirit so much with your bare hands, although I suggest
> > you ask this to the ex-DLOH, not me. You are right, IMHO; I would
> > probably have made it Willpower-based too if I had written those rules.
> > Or perhaps average of Strength and Willpower.
>
> what about a mix of Charisma (astral strength) and Str?
>

How about rolling Willpower, and using average of Charisma and Essence.
This would mean that Physical strength is not important. Also, purely
cosmetic charisma enchancements, eg tailored pheremones, don't count
as it's more about your self-confidence, etc..

--
Wynd, the Zen-Taoist-Celtic Mystic-Poet-Philosopher-Warrior-Dude
<jeltzz@*******.com.au>
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jeltzz

"For I am known, | "The Ravens took flight,
As the Fallen One, | and the sky, just moments Winter's white
He-Who-Walks-Alone, | turned black, as if night had descended"
Under Star, Moon and Sun." | - Flight of the Ravens
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Further Reading

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