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Message no. 1
From: n.kobschaetzki@**********.com (Niels Kobschaetzki)
Subject: Shinto Tradition
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 17:34:10 +0200
Hi!

Just read the preview of Street Magic of the new Shinto Tradition. It
was a funny read and I hope it isn't published this way in east asia.

Where did they get the information that Shinto is some kind of
shamanistic cult, espescially which resembles the shamanistic
traditions of the Amerindian. Since when are Mikos priests? Since
when does Shinto has anything to do with ancestor - Japanese have
buddhism for this.
Why is it the "most influential shamanic tradition in Asia"?
Btw. if you play a Miko, she has to be a virgin, does not have her
period when she is doing her temple services.

Niels & Wiebke *combined knowledge of Japanese sciences since 1999*

P.s.: How shall anyone play such a character and how can such a
character work in a corp or as a shadowrunner?
Job requirements: be a virgin or be celibate, 100% pure, isn't
allowed to do any harm to nature, mankind and harmony (for the whole
nature, people - the whole environment by itself (even foreigners ;))

--
Elizabeth Swann: It's real!
Norrington: My God. You actually were telling the truth.
Jack Sparrow: I do that quite a lot. Yet people are always surprised.
Will Turner: With good reason
-- Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest
Message no. 2
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Shinto Tradition
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 08:39:58 -0700
On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 17:34:10 +0200
Niels Kobschaetzki <n.kobschaetzki@**********.com> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Just read the preview of Street Magic of the new Shinto Tradition. It was
> a funny read and I hope it isn't published this way in east asia.
>
> Where did they get the information that Shinto is some kind of shamanistic
> cult, espescially which resembles the shamanistic traditions of the
> Amerindian. Since when are Mikos priests? Since when does Shinto has
> anything to do with ancestor - Japanese have buddhism for this.
> Why is it the "most influential shamanic tradition in Asia"?
> Btw. if you play a Miko, she has to be a virgin, does not have her period
> when she is doing her temple services.
>
> Niels & Wiebke *combined knowledge of Japanese sciences since 1999*
>
> P.s.: How shall anyone play such a character and how can such a character
> work in a corp or as a shadowrunner?
> Job requirements: be a virgin or be celibate, 100% pure, isn't allowed to
> do any harm to nature, mankind and harmony (for the whole nature, people -
> the whole environment by itself (even foreigners ;))
>
> --
Hi, thanks for the advance feedback. You have stated that there are problems
with the presentation of Shinto in the new supplement, but could you be more
specific, and perhaps by way of illustration suggest solutions which could be
adopted either by the editors, or by individual GMs?
--Anders
Message no. 3
From: n.kobschaetzki@**********.com (Niels Kobschaetzki)
Subject: Shinto Tradition
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 18:13:11 +0200
On Aug 3, 2006, at 5:39 PM, Anders Swenson wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 17:34:10 +0200
> Niels Kobschaetzki <n.kobschaetzki@**********.com> wrote:
>

<snip my post>

> Hi, thanks for the advance feedback. You have stated that there are
> problems
> with the presentation of Shinto in the new supplement, but could
> you be more
> specific, and perhaps by way of illustration suggest solutions
> which could be
> adopted either by the editors, or by individual GMs?

We cannot be more specific because the given extract is too short and
what there's written does not clarify the base it's build upon. This
would be necessary to give a better explanation.

There would be other possibilities to integrate Shintô but those
completely depend on the way it should be realised (shintô of the
state or more anime-like).

Shintô of the state is based on the believe that the emperor is a
direct descendant of Amaterasu, the sun goddess and that the islands
of Japan and its people (only people of Japanese heritage (the line
heritage is dependant on the father) are of divine heritage. Because
of this they have a strong connection to the gods (kami). The
problem here is that Japanese will be even more Xenophobic than
today, very imperialstic and nationalistic (didn't read Shadows of
Asia). The priests of this kind of Shintô wouldn't be really pure but
more on the purifying-the-country-and-helping-to-emphasize-the-Tennô-
trip. Job requirements doesn't match because those would be recruited
through other priests. Isn't that realistic but could be possible.

If you use original Shintô, they (priests) could only ban evil
spirits, excorcise people, bless/purify things and locations. Job
requirements already mentioned.

Anime/Manga-style: is the same as original shintô but more flashy and
you could use more magic. Those priests or miko would be usually
bound to only one of the bigger kami and would usually have some
enemies (priests or miko which are bound to enemy kami of the bound
one). Job requirements already mentioned.

But all in all Shintô isn't really that playable... Because the kami
aren't very strong, there is no personality cult (except the Tennô)
and you need to be really pure.

If the buddhistic-cult would have been used, it would have been far
easier...they have a dead cult, they get their power from Buddha and
environment and the reputation isn't as good as the rep. of Shintô-
priests

As soon as we get the book, we can make suggestions for house rules
because the published stuff just isn't enough to give real good advice.

Niels & Wiebke

--
Norrington: Well, well, well Jack Sparrow, isn't it?
Jack Sparrow: Captain Jack Sparrow, if you please sir.
Norrington: I don't see your ship, Captain.
Jack Sparrow: I'm in the market, as it were.
-- Pirates of the Carribean: The Secret of the Black Pearl
Message no. 4
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Shinto Tradition
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 11:08:08 -0700
On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 18:13:11 +0200
Niels Kobschaetzki <n.kobschaetzki@**********.com> wrote:
> On Aug 3, 2006, at 5:39 PM, Anders Swenson wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 17:34:10 +0200
> > Niels Kobschaetzki <n.kobschaetzki@**********.com> wrote:
> >
>
> <snip my post>
>
>> We cannot be more specific because the given extract is too short and
what
> there's written does not clarify the base it's build upon. This would be
> necessary to give a better explanation.
>
> There would be other possibilities to integrate Shintô but those
> completely depend on the way it should be realised (shintô of the state
> or more anime-like).
>

[snip some more]

Well, in charity perhaps after magic came back, perhaps Shinto priests found
themselves empowered beyond their wildest dreams. Unfortunately, 4th ed SR is
all about one size fits all, so I have little hope for appropriately subltle
nuances to come through. One could hope...

Thanks for your reply, and we shall both be forearmed with a little
knowledge.
--Anders
Message no. 5
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Shinto Tradition
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:56:46 -0600
On 8/3/06, Niels Kobschaetzki <n.kobschaetzki@**********.com> wrote:
>
> Shintô of the state is based on the believe that the emperor is a
> direct descendant of Amaterasu, the sun goddess and that the islands
> of Japan and its people (only people of Japanese heritage (the line
> heritage is dependant on the father) are of divine heritage. Because
> of this they have a strong connection to the gods (kami). The
> problem here is that Japanese will be even more Xenophobic than
> today, very imperialstic and nationalistic (didn't read Shadows of
> Asia). The priests of this kind of Shintô wouldn't be really pure but
> more on the purifying-the-country-and-helping-to-emphasize-the-Tennô-
> trip. Job requirements doesn't match because those would be recruited
> through other priests. Isn't that realistic but could be possible.

Keep in mind that Shinto (among many other
religions/beliefs/philosophies) was adapted for Shamanic magic. It's
not like Shinto suddenly worked, but that Asian Shamans were able to
succesfully use some or most Shinto beliefs/philosophies/perspective
to channel their magic and summon spirits. This then became a Shinto
Shamanic Tradition. Then it goes on to state that the Shinto
Tradition became the most influential shamanic tradition in Asia. The
exact reasons for this are left to the GM's/player's imagination if
they really want to work it out. I would just accept it at face value
and play the game :)

Shinto <> Shinto Shamanic Tradition

> But all in all Shintô isn't really that playable... Because the kami
> aren't very strong, there is no personality cult (except the Tennô)
> and you need to be really pure.

Looks playable to me. And where does it say anything about having to
be pure? ;)

--
-Graht
Message no. 6
From: n.kobschaetzki@**********.com (Niels Kobschaetzki)
Subject: Shinto Tradition
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 21:36:00 +0200
On Aug 3, 2006, at 8:56 PM, Graht wrote:

> On 8/3/06, Niels Kobschaetzki <n.kobschaetzki@**********.com> wrote:

<snip state shintô>

> Keep in mind that Shinto (among many other
> religions/beliefs/philosophies) was adapted for Shamanic magic. It's
> not like Shinto suddenly worked, but that Asian Shamans were able to
> succesfully use some or most Shinto beliefs/philosophies/perspective
> to channel their magic and summon spirits. This then became a Shinto
> Shamanic Tradition. Then it goes on to state that the Shinto
> Tradition became the most influential shamanic tradition in Asia. The
> exact reasons for this are left to the GM's/player's imagination if
> they really want to work it out. I would just accept it at face value
> and play the game :)
>
> Shinto <> Shinto Shamanic Tradition

In the context to this argumentation (not the stuff mentioned before
by Anders): Then they shouldn't have called it Shintô in the first
place but should have searched for something which sounds cool in
Chinese/Japanese/Korean whatever

It's a little bit like in L5R - there they took a lot of pre-defined
terms and remodeled them to their world (oh yeah - in L5R they say
all the time that it's Rokugan and not Japan...).
Why do they have to fiddle in RPGs so often with pre-defined terms
and remodel the meaning of them (especially with East Asia it's the
case - do game developers never research about the stuff they write
about?)

>> But all in all Shintô isn't really that playable... Because the kami
>> aren't very strong, there is no personality cult (except the Tennô)
>> and you need to be really pure.
>
> Looks playable to me. And where does it say anything about having to
> be pure? ;)

It doesn't stand in the preview -- but I mentioned several times
before in my mails to this topic that Shintô priests and Miko as well
have to be really pure

e.g. the post scriptum of my first mail:
"How shall anyone play such a character and how can such a character
work in a corp or as a shadowrunner?
Job requirements: be a virgin or be celibate, 100% pure, isn't
allowed to do any harm to nature, mankind and harmony (for the whole
nature, people - the whole environment by itself (even foreigners ;))"

--
Jack Sparrow: A wedding? I love weddings. Drinks all around.
-- Pirates of the Carribean: The Secret of the Black Pearl
Message no. 7
From: ivan.upton@****.ca (Ivan Upton)
Subject: Shinto Tradition
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 22:00:17 -0600
Niels Kobschaetzki wrote:

> On Aug 3, 2006, at 8:56 PM, Graht wrote:
>
>> On 8/3/06, Niels Kobschaetzki <n.kobschaetzki@**********.com> wrote:
>
>
> <snip state shintô>
>
>> Keep in mind that Shinto (among many other
>> religions/beliefs/philosophies) was adapted for Shamanic magic. It's
>> not like Shinto suddenly worked, but that Asian Shamans were able to
>> succesfully use some or most Shinto beliefs/philosophies/perspective
>> to channel their magic and summon spirits. This then became a Shinto
>> Shamanic Tradition. Then it goes on to state that the Shinto
>> Tradition became the most influential shamanic tradition in Asia. The
>> exact reasons for this are left to the GM's/player's imagination if
>> they really want to work it out. I would just accept it at face value
>> and play the game :)
>>
>> Shinto <> Shinto Shamanic Tradition
>
>
> In the context to this argumentation (not the stuff mentioned before
> by Anders): Then they shouldn't have called it Shintô in the first
> place but should have searched for something which sounds cool in
> Chinese/Japanese/Korean whatever
>
> It's a little bit like in L5R - there they took a lot of pre-defined
> terms and remodeled them to their world (oh yeah - in L5R they say
> all the time that it's Rokugan and not Japan...).
> Why do they have to fiddle in RPGs so often with pre-defined terms
> and remodel the meaning of them (especially with East Asia it's the
> case - do game developers never research about the stuff they write
> about?)

it's called fiction I belive, and in fiction you can take anything from
the real world and turn it into what ever you want...... like George
lucas took (phoenetic spelling) chi gung, and used as the basis for the
force. the name of the character qui gon jinn is even almost the
accurate western alphabet spelling (qi gong).... the point I am trying
to make is that even if it is a game we all love, shadowrun is FICTION.
Message no. 8
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Shinto Tradition
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 00:18:33 -0400
At 12:00 AM 8/4/2006, Ivan Upton wrote:
>it's called fiction I belive, and in fiction you can take anything from
>the real world and turn it into what ever you want...... like George lucas
>took (phoenetic spelling) chi gung, and used as the basis for the force.
>the name of the character qui gon jinn is even almost the accurate western
>alphabet spelling (qi gong).... the point I am trying to make is that even
>if it is a game we all love, shadowrun is FICTION.

Your argument has a fundamental flaw:

While Star Wars is in fact fiction, it has never claimed to be based on the
world as we know it. The Star Wars story does not have real world history
as it's starting line. George Lucas took concepts from the real world and
adjusted them to fit his entirely made up setting.

Shadowrun is explicitly based on the real world. Shinto is a real practice.
It wasn't recycled into a Shadowrun-specific version with a
Shadowrun-specific name. The name "Shinto" - a known term - was slapped on
something that is apparently drastically different with no explanation for
the differences.


--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 9
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Shinto Tradition
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:21:44 -0600
On 8/3/06, Timothy J. Lanza <tjlanza@************.com> wrote:
> At 12:00 AM 8/4/2006, Ivan Upton wrote:
> >it's called fiction I belive, and in fiction you can take anything from
> >the real world and turn it into what ever you want...... like George lucas
> >took (phoenetic spelling) chi gung, and used as the basis for the force.
> >the name of the character qui gon jinn is even almost the accurate western
> >alphabet spelling (qi gong).... the point I am trying to make is that even
> >if it is a game we all love, shadowrun is FICTION.
>
> Your argument has a fundamental flaw:
>
> While Star Wars is in fact fiction, it has never claimed to be based on the
> world as we know it. The Star Wars story does not have real world history
> as it's starting line. George Lucas took concepts from the real world and
> adjusted them to fit his entirely made up setting.
>
> Shadowrun is explicitly based on the real world. Shinto is a real practice.
> It wasn't recycled into a Shadowrun-specific version with a
> Shadowrun-specific name. The name "Shinto" - a known term - was slapped on
> something that is apparently drastically different with no explanation for
> the differences.

Sure it was. It clearly states on the previous page that many shamans
looked to religions for methods. Asian shamans had success using
Shinto beliefs/philosophies and used it as a basis for the Shinto
Shamanic Tradition. Nowhere does it say that the tradition is the
same as the religion. In fact I get the distinct impression that the
tradition is pretty seperate from the religion. I.e., the Shinto
Shamanic *Tradition* is Shadowrun-specific.

--
-Graht

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Shinto Tradition, you may also be interested in:

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