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Message no. 1
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Soggy in milk Was: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 18:34:36 EDT
In a message dated 5/30/99 2:32:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gsw13@****.com
writes:

> Cyberware:
> Reaction Enhancer 6
> Bioware:
> Muscle Augmentation 4
> Synaptic Accelerator 2
> Suprathyroid
> Enhanced Articulation

Sorry, but this combination does NOT work. Synaptic Acceleratiors and
reaction enhancers do NOT mix. In fact, right there in the text in
shadowtech it notes that SA is not usable with either Boosted or Wired
reflexes. Also, if you READ the discriptive (some say fluff) text, you'll
note that both of these systems MUST be incompatable! SA notes that it
encourages the cells in the spinal column to grow in such a way that they
"carry more bandwidth"... and the notes on Reaction enhancers note that they
REPLACE the spinal column material with a superconductive material of some
type!

That means that you've just pulled out the same spine you just modified to
"carry more bandwidth" to begin with...

Now, also noting that you did use the "sum to 10", this means that the bloke
only had 2 points left for skills... Which means he will not have that many
skills, and probobly not at a very high level. And then there are the points
for the edges... where did they come from? If your using the "sum to 10"
system, those have to come out of the 10 points. You have 10 points worth of
edges listed here, and assuming you assigned a 0 to skills, that still leaves
you with 8 points of flaws the charecter needs to have! And any GM worth his
title should know how best to make those flaws count against the player until
he gives up and makes something more reasonable.
Message no. 2
From: gsw13@****.com gsw13@****.com
Subject: Soggy in milk Was: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 19:49:08 -0400
On Sun, 30 May 1999 18:34:36 EDT Starrngr@***.com writes:

> Sorry, but this combination does NOT work. Synaptic Acceleratiors and
> reaction enhancers do NOT mix. In fact, right there in the text in
> shadowtech it notes that SA is not usable with either Boosted or Wired
> reflexes. Also, if you READ the discriptive (some say fluff) text,
you'll
> note that both of these systems MUST be incompatable! SA notes that it

> encourages the cells in the spinal column to grow in such a way that
they
> "carry more bandwidth"... and the notes on Reaction enhancers note
that they
> REPLACE the spinal column material with a superconductive material of
some
> type!
>
> That means that you've just pulled out the same spine you just modified
to
> "carry more bandwidth" to begin with...
>
> Now, also noting that you did use the "sum to 10", this means that the
bloke
> only had 2 points left for skills... Which means he will not have that
many
> skills, and probobly not at a very high level. And then there are the
points
> for the edges... where did they come from? If your using the "sum to
10"
> system, those have to come out of the 10 points. You have 10 points
worth of
> edges listed here, and assuming you assigned a 0 to skills, that still
leaves
> you with 8 points of flaws the charecter needs to have! And any GM
worth his
> title should know how best to make those flaws count against the player
until
> he gives up and makes something more reasonable.

Starrngr:
You are mistaken in most of your contradictions. Synaptic Accelerators
states
that it is incompatible with Wired and Boosted Reflexes, true. However,
Reaction
Enhancers are NOT Wired or Boosted Reflexes but an entirely different
thing,
and in Cybertech (p. 38) it states, and I quote, "The reaction enhancer
is
completely compatible with all other reaction/initiative boosters except
the
move-by-wire system (see p. 39) and the adrenal pump (p. 19 Shadowtech)."
So it IS compatible, according to the rules. Personally, I agree that it
is a
little bit off to super myalinate nerves that are made of
superconductors, but
as far as the rules are considered it is legal.

As far as 8 flaw points and low skills here is what could be done (using
SR3):
Sum to ten will give C for skills and 34 points, so drop 8 for the edges
because
the skill/build point conversion is 1 to 1. So that leaves you with 26 so
ignore
guns and take something like Unarmed/Martial arts 5/7 +1 more to 6/8
because
of Enhanced Articulation and do the same with throwing/shuriken or knife
and
then you have another 14 points for etiquette, stealth, etc. (SR2 gives
24, so
that's just less etiquette and stealth or such.)

Now the valid point you made is the GM. Since this is pure munchkinism,
it
is the GM's duty to make life a living Hell for such a character.

-God of Nothing

>>>>>(Yes but does that mean that I'm the God of nothingness or
that I'm not the God of anything at all)<<<<<
-God of Nothing <00:00:00/00-00-00>

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 3
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Soggy in milk Was: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:51:47 EDT
In a message dated 5/30/99 4:55:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gsw13@****.com
writes:

> As far as 8 flaw points and low skills here is what could be done (using
> SR3):
> Sum to ten will give C for skills and 34 points, so drop 8 for the edges
> because
> the skill/build point conversion is 1 to 1. So that leaves you with 26 so
> ignore
> guns and take something like Unarmed/Martial arts 5/7 +1 more to 6/8
> because
> of Enhanced Articulation and do the same with throwing/shuriken or knife
> and
> then you have another 14 points for etiquette, stealth, etc. (SR2 gives
> 24, so
> that's just less etiquette and stealth or such.)
>
> Now the valid point you made is the GM. Since this is pure munchkinism,
> it
> is the GM's duty to make life a living Hell for such a character.

Both of these points are INCORRECT. Those points for Flaws come out of BUILD
points, not skill points. This means that taking an edge or flaw affects the
Sum to 10 points, not the number of points which you recieve for your skill.

Secondly, Once again look at what I was talking about in the "Fluff" text.
If you replace what's in your "spine" with this superconductive material, you
obviously REMOVE what was in there before, namly the specially improved cells
of the Snyaptic accellerator!!! In addition

#3, if Reaction enhancers arn't refex boosters, WHAT IS??

#4, I do belive this subject came up on the list before... but at the moment
I don't recall what it was that MikeM said about it... Can anyone refresh my
memory? I pretty much thought he said "no" to the reflex enhancement / SA
combination...
Message no. 4
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Soggy in milk Was: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 22:10:16 EDT
In a message dated 5/30/1999 5:36:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Starrngr@***.com writes:

> Sorry, but this combination does NOT work. Synaptic Acceleratiors and
> reaction enhancers do NOT mix. In fact, right there in the text in
> shadowtech it notes that SA is not usable with either Boosted or Wired
> reflexes. Also, if you READ the discriptive (some say fluff) text, you'll
> note that both of these systems MUST be incompatable! SA notes that it
> encourages the cells in the spinal column to grow in such a way that they
> "carry more bandwidth"... and the notes on Reaction enhancers note that
> they
> REPLACE the spinal column material with a superconductive material of some
> type!
>
> That means that you've just pulled out the same spine you just modified to
> "carry more bandwidth" to begin with...

Sorry guy, there is something very specific you missed here.

Synaptic Accelerators and Reaction Enhancers *do* work together. One
augments one attribute, while the other improves the other. However, your
argument (game mechanics aside) for the reasoning why they do not work, I
completely agree with.

-K
Message no. 5
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: Soggy in milk Was: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 12:24:39 +1000
> Sorry guy, there is something very specific you missed here.
>
> Synaptic Accelerators and Reaction Enhancers *do* work together. One
> augments one attribute, while the other improves the other. However, your
> argument (game mechanics aside) for the reasoning why they do not work, I
> completely agree with.

I agree that game fluff being used, they wouldnt work together, but game
mechanics being used (as they hopefully should be) its allowable.

I just wonder at why the munchkin doesnt use wired or movebywire instead of
synaptic accel.? Its a whole lot more efficient at making a character into a
beast.

I have recently had a GM veto a character with one or the other of these because
it was just too FAST compared to the rest of the gang playing. This is even with
a 6 page background to go with it and decent flaws to offset the speed and other
cyberware.

Just because a character CAN be fast and muchkinised, doesnt mean it should be.
Game balance be preserved please!

Btw: I agree with the Gm's decision after geting a better idea of the other
characters. It was a great character made under the basic Sr3 rules and all...
but way to directed into combat effectiveness to be a rounded character.

There is more to a character than combat!

GreyWolf

--
***
"You never listen, do you?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Yes I do, I just dont remember what you said."
Jacob Wyrmfiend <12:32:44/6-1-51>

"Never make a deal with a Dragon."
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>

"Hasnt killed me yet"
Jacob Wyrmfriend <09:08:26/6-2-51>

"And _what_ was the operative word in that sentance?"
The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again/Ha-Ha-Ha>
***
Message no. 6
From: Karsten_DÃŒrotin karsten@****.net
Subject: Soggy in milk Was: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 23:00:08 +0200
(snip some explanations)
>Both of these points are INCORRECT. Those points for Flaws come out of
BUILD
>points, not skill points. This means that taking an edge or flaw
affects the
>Sum to 10 points, not the number of points which you recieve for your
skill.


Wow. I have never read the rules for the sum-to-10-system, since I
immediately discounted it as munchkin bait, but this is really stupid. I
mean, with the point system, you have 100 points which make up your
character, and each point of edges was worth 1 point of those. And in
sum-to-10, you only have 10, and you want to tell me that each edge
point is worth one of THOSE? Idiotic. Not you, but the rule, if it is
that way... :-(

>Secondly, Once again look at what I was talking about in the "Fluff"
text.
>If you replace what's in your "spine" with this superconductive
material, you
>obviously REMOVE what was in there before, namly the specially improved
cells
>of the Snyaptic accellerator!!! In addition
>
>#3, if Reaction enhancers arn't refex boosters, WHAT IS??


Reflex Boosters are reflex boosters. Stupid question. And remember: this
guy wasn't trying to convince us how cool this character was. He also
didn't want to tell us his ideas were realistic, or good roleplaying
choices, he just wanted to show they were possible under the rules.

--- Karsten
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Soggy in milk Was: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:06:14 +0200
According to Karsten Dürotin, at 23:00 on 31 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> Wow. I have never read the rules for the sum-to-10-system, since I
> immediately discounted it as munchkin bait, but this is really stupid. I
> mean, with the point system, you have 100 points which make up your
> character, and each point of edges was worth 1 point of those. And in
> sum-to-10, you only have 10, and you want to tell me that each edge
> point is worth one of THOSE? Idiotic. Not you, but the rule, if it is
> that way... :-(

Somebody, somewhere, is misinterpreting two systems, and confusing the two
on top of that... :)

In the sum-to-10 system, you simply replace the A, B, C, D, and E
priorities by values 4, 3, 2, 1, and 0 respectively. Then you have 10
points to spend, so you could take (for instance) two A priorities, a C,
and two E's. In the end you get a character that's about as well-balanced
as the normal system (which, by this method, also adds up to a 10-point
character -- 0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10). However, edges and flaws do _not_
come from these 10 points; that'd be silly -- take one 2-point flaw and
you could have three A's. That would be very prone to munchkin abuse...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here I am, still intact, and I should give myself credit for that
-- Tilt, "Unravel"
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 8
From: gsw13@****.com gsw13@****.com
Subject: Soggy in milk Was: Munchkinism (Here's How)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:49:41 -0400
On Mon, 31 May 1999 23:00:08 +0200 "Karsten_Dürotin"
<karsten@****.net> writes:

> Reflex Boosters are reflex boosters. Stupid question. And remember:
> this
> guy wasn't trying to convince us how cool this character was. He
> also
> didn't want to tell us his ideas were realistic, or good roleplaying
> choices, he just wanted to show they were possible under the rules.
>
> --- Karsten

Thank You.

-God of Nothing

>>>>>(Yes but does that mean that I'm the God of nothingness or
that I'm not the God of anything at all)<<<<<
-God of Nothing <00:00:00/00-00-00>

___________________________________________________________________
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