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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Poe Saoer)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 08:50:01 2001
okay i need as much help as i can get here.
i am writting a background for a character, and i need some ideas for
justifications.
what are some good ways to explain my PC having dermal plating, wired
reflexes, and bone lacing?
also, what is a good way to excuse my PC for having a monfilament whip at
the start of a game...
this game is a little different so i can't normaly start with anything like
that without a realy great explanation...
any ideas would be greatly appreciated...
Goldenfist
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 09:15:01 2001
On 2/20/01 8:48 am, Poe Saoer said:

>okay i need as much help as i can get here.
>i am writting a background for a character, and i need some ideas for
>justifications.
>what are some good ways to explain my PC having dermal plating, wired
>reflexes, and bone lacing?

Former Professional Football Player or Combat Biker
Retired Lone Star FRT Member
Doc Wagon High Threat Security Team Member
Former Intel Operative for some Corp or Government

Those would all explain why you have the cyber pretty easily although a
few of them are a bit cliched and all provide various problems to your
character.


>also, what is a good way to excuse my PC for having a monfilament whip at
>the start of a game...

Personal Opinion, None. It is a stupid piece of equiptment and never
should have existed in the game. That said if your game master is
allowing them and not going to be too cruel with fumbles then most of the
above character backgrounds will cover you.


>this game is a little different so i can't normaly start with anything like
>that without a realy great explanation...
>any ideas would be greatly appreciated...
>Goldenfist


Steve
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Tyfus)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 09:20:01 2001
1. Depending upon your GM you could bring him in at an advanced age as a
retired Corp Merc. The Corp. booted him cause he got too old. He got all
the Cyber working for them.

2. Used by a Street Doc as a test subject for the cyberware as a Teenager.
The tests took, he was lucky....very lucky, and he used his new found
strength to take over some local Gangbangers group. That's where he picked
up the monofilament and the skill to use it without taking his own head off.

Just some off-the-top-of-the-head ideas.

Coil



Goldenfist wrote:
>for a character, and i need some ideas for
> justifications.
> what are some good ways to explain my PC having dermal plating, wired
> reflexes, and bone lacing?
> also, what is a good way to excuse my PC for having a monfilament whip at
> the start of a game...
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sven De Herdt)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 09:30:03 2001
Poe Saoer wrote:
>
> okay i need as much help as i can get here.
> i am writting a background for a character, and i need some ideas for
> justifications.
<snip requirements>

A Yakuza goon that would use the whip because of its skill, elegance and
swiftness.

A (former) Corporate Black-Ops that would carry a monofilament whip in a
fingertip compartement as a final resort/backup weapon.

A (former maffia) assassin, using the monofilament whip as a silent, yet
deadly weapon.

Anyone crazy enough to own/handle such a whip, just because it is a "cool
and awesome" weapon (perhaps the character saw it in a movie and just had to
have it), although he/she seriously lacks both training and skills to wield
it properly (this leaves some options for the GM as well :)))

Just some thoughts,

-sven ;)
--
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 10:05:01 2001
> >also, what is a good way to excuse my PC for having a monfilament whip at
> >the start of a game...
> Personal Opinion, None. It is a stupid piece of equiptment and never
> should have existed in the game. That said if your game master is
> allowing them and not going to be too cruel with fumbles then most of the
> above character backgrounds will cover you.

C'mon, Steve, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel. :)
Seriously, though, why don't you like the whip?

Bai Shen
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 13:55:00 2001
According to Poe Saoer, on Tue, 20 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

> what are some good ways to explain my PC having dermal plating, wired
> reflexes, and bone lacing?

You could borrow heavily from the opening chapter of Cybertechnology, where
Hatchetman explains how he got his cyber.

Other than that, you could go the corporate route: started off as just a
corporate thug, and got cyber implanted as you got promoted for doing a good
job. Or the same in the government (either in some agency, or in the
military).

> also, what is a good way to excuse my PC for having a monfilament whip at
> the start of a game...

That one is a bit harder, although all the above could work.

--
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shane Hyde)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 14:25:01 2001
> what are some good ways to explain my PC having dermal plating, wired
reflexes, and bone lacing?

A debilitating disease during childhood that caused his body to start
breaking down, and the only things that would hold it together was
cyberwear. It had to keep being replaced as he grew, so the technology
'grew' with it, and he got more and more high tech stuff to help keep him
together (he's kinda like Samueal L Jackson's chr in Unbreakable).

How about he's a super-top-secret experiment by the Russian Government?

He's a construction worker?

A deep sea specialist?

>also, what is a good way to excuse my PC for having a monfilament whip at
the start of a game...

A construction worker or an engineer may have use for a monofilament whip. I
don't know how firestry workers cut down trees, but a mono-whip may have a
good go at it. He's also a chef? And uses it to slice cheese?

Top of my head

SHane
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Tue Feb 20 19:20:01 2001
>what are some good ways to explain my PC having dermal plating, wired
>reflexes, and bone lacing?

Former (or current) underworld enforcer / courier escort / body guard all
work nicely, better than "legitmate" work, IMO. All are "careers"
where you
expect to be shot at or hit, and to shoot or hit back, and none care much
about the moral implications of augmenting the body to do so or impeed you
much from becoming a Shadowrunner.

>also, what is a good way to excuse my PC for having a monfilament whip at
>the start of a game...

The above all work for that too, but only at the highest power levels. Its
actually a rule for character creation in SR3 that starting gear is limited
to an Availability rating of 8 or less. Monofilament whips are therefore
not avaialble to starting characters, house rules excepted.

-Mongoose
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 00:25:01 2001
Poe Saoer writes:

> okay i need as much help as i can get here. i am writting a background
> for a character, and i need some ideas for justifications.

Sven De Herdt writes:

> Anyone crazy enough to own/handle such a whip, just because it is a "cool
> and awesome" weapon (perhaps the character saw it in a movie and just had
> to have it), although he/she seriously lacks both training and skills to
> wield it properly (this leaves some options for the GM as well :)))

Poe, Sven makes a good point here. I think that the objective you really
should be seeking is to convince your GM to allow you to begin play with
certain otherwise restricted items. The idea is not to munchkinise your
character and justify it any way that you are able. To this end, balancing
things out is likely to best way to proceed. Most GMs will reasonably allow
player characters to bend or even break the rules, so long as they are,
OVERALL, not overpowering to the campaign. The easiest way to do this is to
balance your advantages with appropriate disadvantages.

For example, you may have Wired Reflexes 2, Dermal Sheathing 3, and Titanium
Bone Lacing (and not be very appetising to vampires... :-)) becuase you made
a deal with a mafia boss about working for him for two years as an
assassin. Now, you've become a shadowrunner. Does this mean that you have
skipped out on the Don? Better watch out for those mafia hit squads! Or
does it mean that one of your contacts is the Don, and he can pretty much
call you in at will to perform free runs for him? Either way, your GM is
probably going to be a lot more likely to allow you to have the gear, as he
will have a hold over the character that can balance it out.

As for the monofilament whip, perhaps your character took it from an old
defeated nemisis. Maybe that nemisis isn't actually dead, and since you
have his signature weapon, he wants it back. Perhaps his followers are
seeking the item for some reason (to use it as a ritual link to summon up a
free spirit of their old leader...). Maybe you have the whip, but not the
skill, but would like to learn. Your GM will be more likely to approve
this. Perhaps you are hunted by Lone Star for a series of gruesome murders
involving cutting up pregnant women with your monowhip. Whether you're the
actual killer or not is almost immaterial here. Perhaps the women weren't
actually pregnant, maybe they were infested with bug spirits. If you
suggest ideas like this, then not only do you have a reasonable disadvantage
to balance your advantage, but you are providing some potentially cool plot
ideas for your GM. Giving GMs plot hooks is always more likely to make them
see your way.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 14:20:00 2001
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:48:10 -0000 "Poe Saoer"
<a_k_a_goldenfist@*******.com> writes:
> okay i need as much help as i can get here.
> i am writting a background for a character, and i need some ideas
> for
> justifications.
> what are some good ways to explain my PC having dermal plating,

Tired of getting skin rashes ...

> wired reflexes,

Improved reflexes to catch knocked over objects. (What a clumsy
Shadowrunner)

> and bone lacing?

Combating osteoporosis

> also, what is a good way to excuse my PC for having a monfilament
> whip at
> the start of a game...

Dental floss and personal defense in one.

> this game is a little different so i can't normaly start with
> anything like
> that without a realy great explanation...
> any ideas would be greatly appreciated...
> Goldenfist

Actually, that stuff, depending on what level the cyber is taken at, is
fairly common ganger `ware.
Something like Dermal x, Wired 1, and Plastic Bone Lacing should be
easily escusable. It's when you get into Wired 3 and Alpha or better
grade cyberware that it looks fishy.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 17:50:01 2001
> Actually, that stuff, depending on what level the cyber is taken
at, is fairly common ganger `ware. Something like Dermal x, Wired 1,
and Plastic Bone Lacing should be easily escusable. It's when you get
into Wired 3 and Alpha or better grade cyberware that it looks fishy.

Common ganger 'ware? Maybe in higher-power gang campaigns... I'm
sorry, but anything that costs fifty-five large isn't going to be
common security 'ware, much less ganger. Depends on your campaign's
power level and your view of the SR universe, I guess.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shane Hyde)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 17:55:01 2001
> Actually, that stuff, depending on what level the cyber is taken
at, is fairly common ganger `ware. Something like Dermal x, Wired 1,
and Plastic Bone Lacing should be easily escusable. It's when you get
into Wired 3 and Alpha or better grade cyberware that it looks fishy.

Gangers have 'ware? Maybe the high ranking ones who rake in all the cash
and hold their position by force, but I can't see them going under the
scalpel on a regular basis and being out of action for a week or two when
they could get the flick while they're not watching the little political
intrigues of their gang.

I'm curious - has anyone else ever done a Ganger based game? Or a political
one?

Shane
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dan Grabon)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 21:00:01 2001
> Dental floss and personal defense in one.
Ow, ow, OW!!! Man, I cut off the circulation in my fingers while flossing
as it is... I'd hate to just cut them off completely! Not to mention giving
a new definition to bleeding gums...

-moose

---
Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
There comes a time in every man's life when he has to look the potato of
injustice right in the eye.
--Stanley Spadowski
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Yacht)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Wed Feb 21 21:45:01 2001
I'm running a KE Special Investigative Unit now. Rent-a-detective.

Sort of fun. Very a-typical game. Somewhere between Lone Star and
Shadowrunners.

-Meatnog

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shane Hyde" <shane@*******.co.nz>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: some good ideas


> > Actually, that stuff, depending on what level the cyber is taken
> at, is fairly common ganger `ware. Something like Dermal x, Wired 1,
> and Plastic Bone Lacing should be easily escusable. It's when you get
> into Wired 3 and Alpha or better grade cyberware that it looks fishy.
>
> Gangers have 'ware? Maybe the high ranking ones who rake in all the cash
> and hold their position by force, but I can't see them going under the
> scalpel on a regular basis and being out of action for a week or two when
> they could get the flick while they're not watching the little political
> intrigues of their gang.
>
> I'm curious - has anyone else ever done a Ganger based game? Or a
political
> one?
>
> Shane
>
>
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 00:40:01 2001
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:25:32 -0800 (PST) Scott W
<see_scott_run@*****.com> writes:
> Common ganger 'ware? Maybe in higher-power gang campaigns... I'm
> sorry, but anything that costs fifty-five large isn't going to be
> common security 'ware, much less ganger. Depends on your
> campaign's
> power level and your view of the SR universe, I guess.

I'm not talking economics. I'm talking about the setting. Perhaps common
is not the right word, but it wouldn't be uncommon. Economicly speaking,
boosted reflexes would be fairly prevailant in gangs. However, I've
always gotten the impression that despite the cost of legitimately
aquiring and installing wired reflexes, many gangs have one or more
people with wires. Could just be me though ...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wordman)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 11:50:01 2001
> I'm not talking economics. I'm talking about the setting.

In SR, economics .is. the setting. Just about .everything. that happens in
the SR world is ultimately about money.

> However, I've
> always gotten the impression that despite the cost of legitimately
> aquiring and installing wired reflexes, many gangs have one or more
> people with wires.

It's not just the cost of the 'ware. It's also access to a surgeon. If you
assume that the wires are illegal (which they'd almost have to be for a
street gang), who is around to install them? Sure there may be one or two
gangs with access to a renegade street doc, but it takes serious cash to set
up even a substandard OR. It is quite likely the only way a street doc
focusing primarily on illegal 'ware could survive economically is by getting
"sponsored" by organized crime. This would likely mean that any ganger
getting 'ware installed would probably owe at least a favor to organized
crime. At that point, the gang largely becomes a tool of the crime
syndicate.

This outcome is neither good nor bad, but it much more complicated,
interesting and believable than just saying, "oh the ganger got some wires
from somewhere". My point here is that for thinking about economics of the
situation for about two minutes, you can make your setting much deeper.

Frankly, I'd think gangers are much more likely to use booster drugs than
cyberware. I don't think most gangs would want to give control to organized
crime. The whole point of a gang is independence.
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Yacht)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 12:20:01 2001
Wires are hideously expensive. Consider the cheaper Boosted Reflexes
alternative for gang members.

Also, don't forget this is a world where second-hand (third or fourth hand?)
cyberware is also done. Nab some poor schmuck who was stupid enough to get
in your turf and had wired-2. Drag his bullet-riddled corpse to a
disreputable streetdoc to gut and slap into you. Sure, it isn't pretty,
sure it isn't safe .. but you're in a GANG. Safe and pretty aren't part of
the ordeal.

Don't think that gangers have some guy with brand-spankin' new wires, that's
just unreasonable and unrealistic. Wires are just too damn expensive new
and properly installed.

At some point I should post my rules for second-hand cyberware/guns. I ran
a street-level game a while back, it was fun. Nothing says amorality than
mismatched cybereyes.

-Meatnog


----- Original Message -----
From: "Wordman" <wordman@*******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: some good ideas


> > I'm not talking economics. I'm talking about the setting.
>
> In SR, economics .is. the setting. Just about .everything. that happens in
> the SR world is ultimately about money.
>
> > However, I've
> > always gotten the impression that despite the cost of legitimately
> > aquiring and installing wired reflexes, many gangs have one or more
> > people with wires.
>
> It's not just the cost of the 'ware. It's also access to a surgeon. If you
> assume that the wires are illegal (which they'd almost have to be for a
> street gang), who is around to install them? Sure there may be one or two
> gangs with access to a renegade street doc, but it takes serious cash to
set
> up even a substandard OR. It is quite likely the only way a street doc
> focusing primarily on illegal 'ware could survive economically is by
getting
> "sponsored" by organized crime. This would likely mean that any ganger
> getting 'ware installed would probably owe at least a favor to organized
> crime. At that point, the gang largely becomes a tool of the crime
> syndicate.
>
> This outcome is neither good nor bad, but it much more complicated,
> interesting and believable than just saying, "oh the ganger got some wires
> from somewhere". My point here is that for thinking about economics of the
> situation for about two minutes, you can make your setting much deeper.
>
> Frankly, I'd think gangers are much more likely to use booster drugs than
> cyberware. I don't think most gangs would want to give control to
organized
> crime. The whole point of a gang is independence.
>
>
>
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (D. Raven De La Luna)
Subject: Some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 13:30:01 2001
When I look at the books, I get all gooey inside fantasizing about what I
could do with the high powered toys. I have always fought the desire to
create "SuperCyber Man" and kick ass all over the place. I have even done
it. To tell you the truth, it wasn't much fun. Sacrificing good role-playing
for number crunching is always a poor way to begin. I have also created
"Meat-boy", a poor street sam wannabe named Johnny X, he has taken more
lethal damage than anyone else, possibly in history...spent the largest part
of his life recouping. That wasn't much fun either. The best way to choose
cyber/bio/whatever is to create the person first, the cyber last. If you
feel that you have to justify cyber...then maybe you don't need it. A good
GM will not off you in the first part of your career. I also have it on good
authority that you rnext GM is VERY fair...hehehehe...just ask smUgE

Lunatec
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Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 19:40:01 2001
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:50:18 -0500 "Wordman" <wordman@*******.com>
writes:
> > I'm not talking economics. I'm talking about the setting.

> In SR, economics .is. the setting. Just about .everything. that
> happens in
> the SR world is ultimately about money.

Not exactly. Yes many players in the Shadowrun environment are money
driven, but that doesn't mean that elements of the setting are
economically viable. There is nothing you preventing you from saying
"Everyone is after money and nothing else, and every street sam has
Move-by-Wire 4 by the time they 12 despite the cost.

> > However, I've
> > always gotten the impression that despite the cost of
> legitimately
> > aquiring and installing wired reflexes, many gangs have one or
> more
> > people with wires.

> It's not just the cost of the 'ware. It's also access to a surgeon.

Which is why I said "the cost of acquiring _and_installing_".
Additionally, In both cases, cost is not necessarily an issue of money.
For example, the cheapest (monetarily speaking) feasible scenario I can
think of for the acquisition of wired reflexes would be cyberware stolen
from somewhere and the Street Doc forgoing labor costs as favor repaying
or to be repayed by x deed. If I understand it, getting wired inflicts
"only" a Serious wound so a hospital stay is not mandatory. The cost for
implanting a 55k piece of ware is ... I'm not sure and I have to go to
class. I'll look at it more later (P 151 M&M), but it doesn't appear to
be much.

<SNIP>
> Frankly, I'd think gangers are much more likely to use booster drugs
> than
> cyberware. I don't think most gangs would want to give control to
> organized
> crime. The whole point of a gang is independence.

It may be that I've gotten a false impression due to tendencies for
fiction to note the exceptions (like what's his name from Cybertechnology
...)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 22:15:01 2001
> Wires are hideously expensive. Consider the cheaper
Boosted Reflexes alternative for gang members.
>
> Also, don't forget this is a world where second-hand
(third or fourth hand?) cyberware is also done. Nab
some poor schmuck who was stupid enough to get in your
turf and had wired-2. Drag his bullet-riddled corpse
to a disreputable streetdoc to gut and slap into you.
Sure, it isn't pretty, sure it isn't safe .. but
you're in a GANG. Safe and pretty aren't part of the
ordeal.
>
> Don't think that gangers have some guy with
brand-spankin' new wires, that's just unreasonable and
unrealistic. Wires are just too damn expensive new
and properly installed.
>
> At some point I should post my rules for second-hand
cyberware/guns. I ran a street-level game a while
back, it was fun. Nothing says amorality than
mismatched cybereyes.
> -Meatnog

I wasn't going to say anything here, but 'Nog's "Wires
are just too damn expensive new and properly
installed." begs a reply. :)

Not that I'm disagreeing with you completely, 'Nog,
but there ARE circumstances where some ganger goombah
might get his hands on enough money, or do the right
favours for the right people, to get a set of brand
spanking new wires, or something else like that.

I've done the 'cash windfall' thing myself. I've got a
character who was just a juve ganger at one point. His
story goes that his gang (the Blood Razors) wound up
in a war with another gang (the Hellborne). The Razors
ended up getting wasted for the most part, because the
Hellborne had secret backers, who were giving them
money, weapons and low-grade cyber. My character was
one of the few who survived and he began to plot
revenge. He got his hands on a nice ol' Remington 990,
found out where an exchange between the gang and their
backers was going down, made bolognese out of the bad
guys and nicked off with a cool million. He wasn't
done with revenge, though, so instead of retiring with
the money, he invested in some top of the line cyber
and bioware.

Now, of course, there are strings attached - my boy
doesn't owe anyone anything, but he's got the
Hellborne out for his blood. That's cool, though - he
WANTS them dead. On the other hand, the Hellborne's
secret backers were Mafia, so if they ever found out
my character stole their money, he could be in a heap
of trouble (can we say Dark Secret? :) ).

Anyway, the lesson for whoever was asking about the
ganger character to begin with (sorry, can't remember
who it was) is that anything's possible - in a RPG. ;)
You just have to figure out a good reason WHY it
happened. :) And remember, it's very likely there will
be strings of SOME sort attached.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nexx)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Thu Feb 22 22:25:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rand Ratinac"

> Not that I'm disagreeing with you completely, 'Nog,
> but there ARE circumstances where some ganger goombah
> might get his hands on enough money, or do the right
> favours for the right people, to get a set of brand
> spanking new wires, or something else like that.

Hel, simpler than that. Wires have to come from someplace, right? A group
of gangers boost the right shipment or raid the right warehouse, and they
might decide that, in lieu of protection payments this year, that unlicensed
Street Doc who lives in their turf can install them in a couple people. Is
it going to mean every ganger in Seattle is going to be moving at 70kph with
the juice running through them? No... but it is a simple, plausible reason
why they might have a couple members with it.

Hey, I just had a thought. Wires work, in part, off a chip-based processor,
right? What happens if you overclock someone's wires?

::evil chuckle::
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 00:30:01 2001
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:16:47 -0600 "Nexx" <nexx@********.net> writes:
<SNIP>
> Hey, I just had a thought. Wires work, in part, off a chip-based
> processor,
> right? What happens if you overclock someone's wires?
>
> ::evil chuckle::

Spinal column melts in your back, not in your hands? :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 00:30:12 2001
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:46:44 -0600 Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
writes:
<SNIP>
> For example, the cheapest (monetarily speaking) feasible scenario I
> can
> think of for the acquisition of wired reflexes would be cyberware
> stolen
> from somewhere and the Street Doc forgoing labor costs as favor
> repaying
> or to be repayed by x deed. If I understand it, getting wired
> inflicts
> "only" a Serious wound so a hospital stay is not mandatory. The cost
> for
> implanting a 55k piece of ware is ... I'm not sure and I have to go
> to
> class. I'll look at it more later (P 151 M&M), but it doesn't appear
> to
> be much.
<SNIP>

Am I understanding this correctly? If you remove from the equation the
cost of the ware and the doctor's fees, all that's left is the hospital
lifestyle costs? (or is it Serious wound outpatient services?) Assuming
two successes at each stage (a bit generous, I know), it would take 15
and half days to heal completely. Lifestyle requirements would be ten
days at High, 5 at Middle, and 12 hours at Low. That comes to a total of
3,333 (333.33 * 10) + 833 (166.67 * 5) + 17 (33.33 * 0.5) = 4,183.

If that's right, it won't taken many stolen cars to meet that cost ...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wordman)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 14:30:01 2001
>>> I'm not talking economics. I'm talking about the setting.

>> In SR, economics .is. the setting.

> There is nothing you preventing you from saying
> "Everyone is after money and nothing else, and every street sam has
> Move-by-Wire 4 by the time they 12 despite the cost.

You can run your game any way you like, naturally. However, I have found
that any campaign founded around totally unbelievable premises (like the one
above), either a) is populated by roll-players instead of role-players and,
thus, totally uninteresting to me or b) collapses in on itself sooner or
later as more and more spackle is used to "maintain the lie".

>> It's not just the cost of the 'ware. It's also access to a surgeon.

> Which is why I said "the cost of acquiring _and_installing_".

I heard you. That's why I said "access to", not "cost of". My point
was that
it would be almost impossible for a ganger to .find. a surgeon willing to
install stolen, illegal gear into him unless that surgeon had some financial
backing from someone. Unless that "someone" enjoys giving gangers cyber for
the hell of it, chances are the ganger is going to owe the "someone" a huge
favor, tantamount to giving the "someone" control of the gang.

Even of the street doc works in the back of a van, the gear in that van will
costs hundreds of thousands of nuyen, not to mention costs for drugs, etc.
Doing surgery on some sort of barter system is not going to pay for that
truck. As I said before, while you can easily invent a scenario where this
would happen from time to time (for example, the doc tells a gang, "steal
this crate of antibiotics for me, and I'll put you under the knife), this is
going to be an exception, not the norm.

However, even if you think that it actually .would. be the norm, that still
proves my larger point: economics .is. the setting. The "drugs for surgery"
plot above is grounded in reality entirely through economics.
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Walter Scheper)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 15:15:01 2001
On 23 Feb 2001, at 14:30, Wordman wrote:

[snip]
> Even of the street doc works in the back of a van, the gear in that van
> will costs hundreds of thousands of nuyen, not to mention costs for
> drugs, etc. Doing surgery on some sort of barter system is not going to
> pay for that truck. As I said before, while you can easily invent a
> scenario where this would happen from time to time (for example, the doc
> tells a gang, "steal this crate of antibiotics for me, and I'll put you
> under the knife), this is going to be an exception, not the norm.
>
> However, even if you think that it actually .would. be the norm, that
> still proves my larger point: economics .is. the setting. The "drugs for
> surgery" plot above is grounded in reality entirely through economics.
>
Just MHO, but aren't shadowrunners already not the norm? At least in my
campaign, norm is a wageslave or someother non-illegal lifestyle. If
you're SINless, then norm is a life of debilitating poverty that
probably ends somewhere around 30. So I would think that anyone who is
a shadowrunner is going to have an exceptional background by default. I
do agree with you about the economics of Shadowrun, though.

That is all
-Walter
---------------------------------------------------------
"We musn't run short of filmbase. Else how could we flood
village and city with our information? The people must
learn how well I govern them. How would they know if we
didn't tell them?"
-Duke Leto Atreides, Frank Herbert's _Dune_
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 15:45:01 2001
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Walter Scheper wrote:

> Just MHO, but aren't shadowrunners already not the norm?

Yes, but we're talking about gangers, not shadowrunners. And
gangers are not really the cream of the crop, neh?

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
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David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wordman)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 16:30:01 2001
> Just MHO, but aren't shadowrunners already not the norm?

Yes, that's true, but the initial question in the thread was about if the
typical gang had wired members.
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 17:00:01 2001
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:31:51 -0500 "Wordman" <wordman@*******.com>
writes:
> > Just MHO, but aren't shadowrunners already not the norm?

> Yes, that's true, but the initial question in the thread was about
> if the
> typical gang had wired members.

As I understood it the question was if it was plausible for a PC to get
wired reflexes, dermal plating, bone lacing, and a monowhip. The
conversation then went on to whether it was plausible for a ganger to
have wired reflexes.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Walter Scheper)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 17:20:01 2001
On 23 Feb 2001, at 16:09, Alfredo B Alves wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:31:51 -0500 "Wordman" <wordman@*******.com>
> writes:
> > > Just MHO, but aren't shadowrunners already not the norm?
>
> > Yes, that's true, but the initial question in the thread was about if
> > the typical gang had wired members.
>
> As I understood it the question was if it was plausible for a PC to get
> wired reflexes, dermal plating, bone lacing, and a monowhip. The
> conversation then went on to whether it was plausible for a ganger to
> have wired reflexes.
>
Which I think is plausible, just not typical. That was what I failed to
say the last time. I should have said PC's instead of shadowrunners,
because I intended my comment to be more general and more about what is
acceptable as character background. If the question is whether John Doe
ganger in Auburn has several ganger-buddies with wired reflexes, then
you're stretching my suspension of disbelief.

That is all
-Walter
---------------------------------------------------------
"We musn't run short of filmbase. Else how could we flood
village and city with our information? The people must
learn how well I govern them. How would they know if we
didn't tell them?"
-Duke Leto Atreides, Frank Herbert's _Dune_
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 17:30:01 2001
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:30:27 -0500 "Wordman" <wordman@*******.com>
writes:
<SNIP>
> I heard you. That's why I said "access to", not "cost of".

Sorry, I misread your statement.

> My point
> was that
> it would be almost impossible for a ganger to .find. a surgeon
> willing to
> install stolen, illegal gear into him unless that surgeon had some
> financial
> backing from someone. Unless that "someone" enjoys giving gangers
> cyber for
> the hell of it, chances are the ganger is going to owe the "someone"
> a huge
> favor, tantamount to giving the "someone" control of the gang.

That may be the case in your games, but don't impose it on others. It's
not part of the published Shadowrun game books. Thus, arguments based on
the premise that cyberware and surgery aren't available without strings
is invalid when taken out of context of a specific campaign.

<SNIP>
> However, even if you think that it actually .would. be the norm,
> that still
> proves my larger point: economics .is. the setting. The "drugs for
> surgery"
> plot above is grounded in reality entirely through economics.

No. Elements of the Shadowrun setting defies economics. In areas, an
understanding of economics can enhance the setting or bog it down.
However, the setting presented in the game books is not economics. It may
be related to it, it may be enhanced by it, but it is not economics.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 17:35:01 2001
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:19:13 -0500 "Walter Scheper" <ratlaw@*******.com>
writes:
<SNIP>
> If the question is whether John
> Doe
> ganger in Auburn has several ganger-buddies with wired reflexes,
> then
> you're stretching my suspension of disbelief.

I think I see where this mess came from. When, in my original post, I
said "depending on what level the cyber is taken at, is fairly common
ganger `ware.", I was thinking among PCs with a gang background. In my
next response on the thread, I think I erroneously generalized my own
statement/thoughts as if PCs were a representative sample of anything
other than PCs. :)

Sorry about my faulty thought process. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wordman)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 17:40:00 2001
> However, the setting presented in the game books is not economics.

Reread any SR book with comments by the Chromed Accountant and tell me if
you think that's really true.
Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nexx)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 17:45:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wordman"

> > However, the setting presented in the game books is not economics.
>
> Reread any SR book with comments by the Chromed Accountant and tell me if
> you think that's really true.

Counterpoint: Reread books with commentary from The Laughing Man and the
Big D and say if you still think "Its all about dollars and sense."
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wordman)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 18:20:01 2001
> > > However, the setting presented in the game books is not economics.
> >
> > Reread any SR book with comments by the Chromed Accountant and
> tell me if
> > you think that's really true.
>
> Counterpoint: Reread books with commentary from The Laughing Man and the
> Big D and say if you still think "Its all about dollars and sense."

Well, in a lot of ways the Horrors are essentially looking for a real estate
deal. :-).
Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: some good ideas
Date: Fri Feb 23 18:30:01 2001
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:37:38 -0500 "Wordman" <wordman@*******.com>
writes:
> > However, the setting presented in the game books is not economics.

> Reread any SR book with comments by the Chromed Accountant and tell
> me if
> you think that's really true.

Man, fast turn around on this thread ... :)

Yes, I think it's really true. The Shadowrun setting is the current
setting with modifications. In Shadowrun, an element of the setting is
the current world's economics. It's arguable whether current economics
are present in Shadowrun unmodified. Regardless, like today, economics
does not constitute the entirety of the Shadowrun setting. As I implied
in another post, not every PC is after money (as the final goal). For
some, like a Doc PC I made (and haven't yet been able to play), their
motives can have more altruistic motives. (In my Doc PC's case, for
example, he wants to provide medical services for the community that he
lives in. He's working to get the funds to set up and maitain a decent
clinic and doesn't want to charge much for his services.) That sort of
behavior is not covered by economics (other than to call it irrational).

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: Some Good Ideas
Date: Sat Feb 24 23:10:01 2001
I remember reading a SR novel a long time ago about a decker...corp type...
using his datajack to pilot an ultralight without the benefit of a VCR... in
game terms, how accurate is this. I believe the book was "Never Deal With a
Dragon".... any thoughts?

Lunatec
Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Some Good Ideas
Date: Sat Feb 24 23:20:01 2001
http>I remember reading a SR novel a long time ago about a decker...corp
type...
>using his datajack to pilot an ultralight without the benefit of a VCR...
in
>game terms, how accurate is this. I believe the book was "Never Deal With
a
>Dragon".... any thoughts?
>
>Lunatec

You can do it. R3 and R2 both have rules for it, in that a vehicle can be
datajack controled even if its not adapated to a rigger. . Its basically
like normal driving, but the extra info and extra "virtual controls" give
you a +1 reaction for controlling the vehicle.

-Seb Wiers
Message no. 38
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nexx)
Subject: Some Good Ideas
Date: Sun Feb 25 04:00:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danyeal De La Luna"

> I remember reading a SR novel a long time ago about a decker...corp
type...
> using his datajack to pilot an ultralight without the benefit of a VCR...
in
> game terms, how accurate is this. I believe the book was "Never Deal With
a
> Dragon".... any thoughts?

Perfectly legit. Someone with a VCR will fly circles around him, but he's
got a +1 to either reaction or initiative (can't remember which) for being
jacked in.
Message no. 39
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Some Good Ideas
Date: Sun Feb 25 07:15:23 2001
According to Danyeal De La Luna, on Sun, 25 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

> I remember reading a SR novel a long time ago about a decker...corp type...
> using his datajack to pilot an ultralight without the benefit of a VCR... in
> game terms, how accurate is this. I believe the book was "Never Deal With a
> Dragon".... any thoughts?

All the glider needs is a datajack port, which gives some small bonuses to
operating the vehicle but nowhere near as good as when using a full VCR
with a vehicle equipped for it. The relevant tech is in all three rigger
books, so pick the one you like best from your bookshelf and turn to the
pages with vehicle modifications :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kogels houden van mensen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 40
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wavy Davy)
Subject: Some Good Ideas
Date: Mon Feb 26 08:55:00 2001
On Sat, 24 Feb 2001, Sebastian Wiers wrote:

>
> http>I remember reading a SR novel a long time ago about a decker...corp
> type...
> >using his datajack to pilot an ultralight without the benefit of a VCR...
> in
> >game terms, how accurate is this. I believe the book was "Never Deal With
> a
> >Dragon".... any thoughts?
> >
> >Lunatec
>
> You can do it. R3 and R2 both have rules for it, in that a vehicle can be
> datajack controled even if its not adapated to a rigger. . Its basically
> like normal driving, but the extra info and extra "virtual controls" give
> you a +1 reaction for controlling the vehicle.

IIRC, you also get a -1 TN# for driving tests. Can't remember whether
it's in a combat and/or non-combat situation, tho'. You can also use
smartlinks and such like, as long as the weapons are equipped with them.

R3 also has penalties for non-driving actions will using a datajack.

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...I think there probably should be a rule that if you're talking about how
many loaves of bread a bullet will go through, it's understood that you mean
lengthwise loaves. Otherwise, it makes no sense.
Message no. 41
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Some Good Ideas
Date: Mon Feb 26 22:25:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> > You can do it. R3 and R2 both have rules for it,
in that a vehicle can be datajack controled even if
its not adapated to a rigger. . Its basically like
normal driving, but the extra info and extra "virtual
controls" give you a +1 reaction for controlling the
vehicle.
>
> IIRC, you also get a -1 TN# for driving tests. Can't
remember whether it's in a combat and/or non-combat
situation, tho'. You can also use smartlinks and such
like, as long as the weapons are equipped with them.
>
> R3 also has penalties for non-driving actions will
using a datajack.
> Wavy Davy (who shares wins)

As of Rigger 2 it was +1 to initiative, Wavy. That may
have changed in R3.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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