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Message no. 1
From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:56:11 +0000
Well since I am a weekend reader of this mailinglist this might come
alittle late but durring the week I have had some spare time to think
about this Special Forces campaign issue, so bare with me.

RANK 'n' COMMAND
My group have played other "military" like games (we played alot of
Prime Directive (Star Trek)) and well there is a problem that usually
pops up there from time to time, it's RANK and ORDERS. How do you
deal with the command problem if one player outranks another ? Should
you allow the higher ranking player to command the lower ranking one
? Should you allow them to "boss" eachother around ? If you do this
could quickly get kinda borring. So is the solution making all PCs
the same rank ?


SKILLS
Special Forces troopers basically have to know it all don't they, but
there are some skills that you just MUST have since they give them to
you durring the long and extensive training you must have before
becoming a member of a SF Unit.

For grunts I would assume that this is what you get trained in
durring boot camp (I don't know what they teach in the army since I
was in the Navy, but I assume all soldiers and sailors learn the same
basics).

Fire Arms, (Un)Armed Combat, Athletics, Military Ettiquette, Tactics,
Biotech (FirstAid), Survival.

On that I guess you also could and would learn things like your
"speciallity" whatever that might be:

Communications, Leadership, Demolitions, Heavy Weapons.

I assume that the future speciallities would be something like:
Team Leader - Command
Communications Expert
Heavy Weapons operator
Mage
Demolitions
Sniper
Hand 2 Hand Specialist


GEAR
Well you don't really own anything in the military, you just get to
borrow alot of stuff that you are responsible for. So weapons and
such are handed out, but since "we" are the special forces I guess we
have a more liberal view and they get to choose alittle more what
they want not just the old here is your rifel.

Being a soldier doesn't pay very well, it is not a profession you
take on to become rich quick. So there arn't the big bucks that
perhaps shadowrunners might come over. Sure you might get some
high-risk bonus or war bonus or whatever they call it.

But since you don't get alot of money, you can't buy much but as
pointed out what is the point since you don't get to bring your own
gun on a mission anyway.

This does have a valid point when it comes to cyber/biotech. No
soldier can afford any of the cool and expensive stuff so they have
to pretty much give it to them, should you then allow the players to
go on a cyberspree since uncle sam, or whomever, is paying the bill ?


MAGIC
If there is something new and powerful out there you bet the military
is going to find a use for it, well now there is magic. Do they allow
magicans to select there own spells ? or is it going to be like the
basic training that the military require that the mage knows certain
spells ? I would assume that they want some controll of what the mage
knows.

Shamens would in my campaing be a big nono, since they are well to
much "nature" and they sing and chant and dance and smoke weird herbs
amd talk to imaginary animal totems on other planes. :)
And ofcause they also helped in blowing the military away durring the
great ghost dance, and the military is like an elephant and never
forgets. Mages are just more business like.

If your SF unit is from NAN then perhaps I would allow a Shamen
instead of a mage.


CONTACTS
How do you do with contacts and what use do you have for them now ?
It is not like you are going to get to call your street doc or corp
wage slave and ask them before they drop you in the jungle, since you
rarely get to know what you are supposed to do until just in time.

So I guess contacts would be limited more or less to other military
and goverment type people.


MISSIONS
The best thing about military missions is that they don't really have
to make sense to the players since they will most likely be lowly
grunts and they have no way of seeing the whole picture. So this
could be a great way of messing with there minds :)

Here just follows a bunch of "little" ideas of possible missions I
have come up with durring the week.

* Assassination.

Take out some important person, drug lord (Yes, they did show Sniper
on cable this week), dictator and so on ...

* Rescue POW.

Rescue some poor soldiers that have been taken capture by the enemy

* SAD - Search and Destroy.

Might be usefull on "bughive" mission where the troopers go out and
kill bugs or try out new weapons on the bugs, perfect to use before
they sprayed bugcity. Have your team be the test team for the agent.

These are also general go in and kill everything you see and then
burn the place and get out type missions

* Recover crashed object.

Satellite that has gone down in some remote and hostile area. Chopper
or plane that has gone down and in need of a rescue, can easily
become a Predator like mission.

* Hostage Situation.

Terrorists take important hostages that have to be freeded and the
evil terrorists have to be stone cold dead.

* Espionage.

Take pictures, place bug, steal information. This is the mission
where they don't bring the big guns for a change where they never
want to be seen. This can be used against other goverments and larger
corps.

* Kidnap someone.

Have them kidnap some important person or someone dear to and
important person to make them do what the goverment want.

* Try new gear.

This is a funny one, have done it quite a few times while playing
Paranoia. Put them down somewhere totally remote with some new hitech
gear that will fail and mess up. Loads of fun.

* Deliver and object to someone or somewhere.

Take object from point A to point B.

* Blow something up.

Go in and blow something up, kill, crush and destroy.

* Train rebel forces

Train the locals to fight non-friendly goverment, probably in Aztlan.

* Escape from POW camp.

If you are unlucky and have failed and being taken captured on some
mission this is escape or die time.


Well enough ... Hope someone found something interesting and worthy
of you comments and attention.

/Stefan


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Message no. 2
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:45:28 -0800
Stefan wrote:
>

<huge snip>

> This does have a valid point when it comes to cyber/biotech. No
> soldier can afford any of the cool and expensive stuff so they have
> to pretty much give it to them, should you then allow the players to
> go on a cyberspree since uncle sam, or whomever, is paying the bill ?

not necessarily. Rangers, for instance, although not considered SF,
have a life expectancy of approximately 30 seconds. Which means Uncle
Sam isn't going to spend an overly large sum of money to give them
cyber/bioware. They wouldn't want classified milspec cyber falling into
the wrong hands.

Panther
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:20:52 -0700
Stefan wrote:
/
/ RANK 'n' COMMAND
/ My group have played other "military" like games (we played alot of
/ Prime Directive (Star Trek)) and well there is a problem that usually
/ pops up there from time to time, it's RANK and ORDERS. How do you
/ deal with the command problem if one player outranks another ? Should
/ you allow the higher ranking player to command the lower ranking one
/ ? Should you allow them to "boss" eachother around ? If you do this
/ could quickly get kinda borring. So is the solution making all PCs
/ the same rank ?

It's a rollplaying issue and I as a GM stay out of it. If the
players want to play in games were rank is a factor, then it's up to
them to decide how their character deals with it. And if a
confrontation occurs between a PC and an NPC, then it's up to you to
figure out the consequences.

In my group I'm playing in a game (a Champions varient) where the
characters have been frozen for 400 years and wake up on an Earth
were man has de-evolved into tribes (why, I have no idea). Our
characters were part of a NASA research project, so rank is
involved. We have fun roleplaying because some PCs are egotistical
scientist who give orders and won't take them. There's a couple of
airforce captains with the leadership skills. And then there's my
character, a marine sergeant who doesn't have respect for airforce
flyboys.

The rank issue has been resolved over time and is applied depending
on the situation. If everything is peachy the captains are in charge
and the scientists do their thing. If we're recovering technology
the military characters stand back and try not to lose their tempers
with the scientists. If things get hairy the captains and the marine
work together to keep the scientists from getting everyone killed.

I've played in other games with a clear rank structure and just
rollplayed it.

-David
--
"You can do very little with faith, but you can do nothing without it."
- Samuel Butler
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 23:01:48 +0000
On 13 Mar 98, Stefan disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> Well since I am a weekend reader of this mailinglist this might come
> alittle late but durring the week I have had some spare time to
> think about this Special Forces campaign issue, so bare with me.
>
> RANK 'n' COMMAND
<snip>

Well, there has to be some leader. So, here's a solution I used in
Star Wars campaign I ran:
"Cursed team"
- Man, I tell you. Those guys are cursed. Yeah, cursed. Perhaps they
miffed some mojo-slinger, or something. I tell you, I want a
reassignment. Their first Commanding Officer's chute didn't open on a
LALO jump. They finished the mission by themselves. Their second CO
broke his leg when they were disembarking from the thunderbird that
crashed through a roof of the enemy's building. They dragged him
along and finished the mission, but he caught two bullets in his
shoulder and will spend next few months in hospital. Their third CO,
well, there was this sniper ambush right at the beginning of the
mission. Next one - a jumping mine in the jungle. Next one was taken
over by an enemy mojo-slinger and tried to kill them. So they shot
him.
And I'm supposed to be next!!! I tell you, I'll call sickbay! I don't
want to go with those guys!! HEEEEEELP!


Heh heh. (Of course, in the real military, the command would just go
to the next highest ranked officer/NCO with, IIRC, longest combat
experience resolvin the matter in case of ties, but you could make
them all the same rank with the same amount of combat experience.
;>>)

Hmm... this could be a Flaw, even.

Naaah.

<snip stuff I agree with>
> This does have a valid point when it comes to cyber/biotech. No
> soldier can afford any of the cool and expensive stuff so they have
> to pretty much give it to them, should you then allow the players to
> go on a cyberspree since uncle sam, or whomever, is paying the bill

Well, Uncle Sam is not goin to be throwing milions of nuyens out
through the window to get one of his soldiers a Beta-grade Wired III
with Reaction Enhancers. So you have to learn to say No.
And just give them limit on starting cash they can spend on
cyberware.

> MAGIC
> If there is something new and powerful out there you bet the
> military is going to find a use for it, well now there is magic. Do
> they allow magicans to select there own spells ? or is it going to
> be like the basic training that the military require that the mage
> knows certain spells ? I would assume that they want some controll
> of what the mage knows.

Well, I can't really imagine them controlling what spells a mage
should know, though there'd be probably some recommandations...

> Shamens would in my campaing be a big nono, since they are well to
> much "nature" and they sing and chant and dance and smoke weird
> herbs amd talk to imaginary animal totems on other planes. :) And
> ofcause they also helped in blowing the military away durring the
> great ghost dance, and the military is like an elephant and never
> forgets. Mages are just more business like.

Errr... That is, that may be correct when talking about UCAS/CAS
armed forces. But I played a Wolf shaman that was an ex NAN-armed
forces. (nothing special, just border guards.)

NAN forces would use lots of shamans. Especially totems like Wolf, or
Dog.

> If your SF unit is from NAN then perhaps I would allow a Shamen
> instead of a mage.
Exactly my point.

<snip>
> * Try new gear.
>
> This is a funny one, have done it quite a few times while playing
> Paranoia. Put them down somewhere totally remote with some new
> hitech gear that will fail and mess up. Loads of fun.

Well, sorry, but I can't really imagine military using their troops
to test equipment. Now, a mission that happens to be their first
mission that uses a new radio/night visor/gizmo of the week (made by
the lowest bidder) may be fun when they realize the unit does not
stand up to it's specifications, but purposeful testing? That's what
the shooting range and maneouvers are for...

Oh, and while we're taking about maneuvers, here's an adventure seed:

* Maneuvers

PC can either play normal part in Army maneuvers, or (more fun) they
can be the OpFor. Complication: those are "demonstration" maneuvers,
and OpFor is supposed to loose. Players are told that threateningly
by some nosy, nasty superior they don't like, but he sais that
"unofficially".
Players will probably go out of their skins to win... ;>

Oh, another fun one - a third force intervenes, armed with real guns
instead of Ares ELD-ARs and MILES gear... And they are after
PC/VIP/VIPs son that's serving in the military and taking part
in the exercises/whatever.
<eGMg>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
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Consideration rules - is that OK?
Message no. 5
From: JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:14:57 EST
Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE> wrote,

> RANK 'n' COMMAND
> My group have played other "military" like games (we played alot of
> Prime Directive (Star Trek)) and well there is a problem that usually
> pops up there from time to time, it's RANK and ORDERS. How do you
> deal with the command problem if one player outranks another ? Should
> you allow the higher ranking player to command the lower ranking one
> ? Should you allow them to "boss" eachother around ? If you do this
> could quickly get kinda borring. So is the solution making all PCs
> the same rank ?

How about a RL example?

I once used to work in a battalion TOC. It was run by a major (although
the commander, a lieutenant colonel, came by to visit very frequently),
assisted by a few captains in staff positions. There were also several
lieutenants helping as assistant weenies, and plenty of NCOs
(sergeants for you non-military types), ranging in seniority from
buck corporals to a senior master sergeant (and also frequently visited
by the command sergeant major). We also had a few private-types, but no
more than 2 or 3 at a time.

Most of the time, the command atmosphere was largely informal. Of
course, everyone was mindful of rank: the NCOs addressed the officers
as "sir" or "ma'am," and no one called anyone by their first name
(except others of equal rank). Almost never did anyone pull rank; the
only exceptions were when the NCOs were dressing down upstart privates,
or when the major was really pi$$ed at someone for acting stupid. If a
superior wanted a subordinate to do something, it often took the form
of "Sgt (or Lt) So-and-so, would you please see that this gets done?"
And the subordinate always treated it like an order, because, in effect,
it WAS an order.

Another thing that you should keep in mind is that in a formal
hierarchy of command (like the military) RANK and SENIORITY are two very
different things. To use the above example, the lieutenants, as
officers, outranked even the most senior NCOs. But the NCOs, who had
been in the Army much longer than the officers, had more seniority. The
end result was that, even though the officers could tell the NCOs what
to do (and expect it to be done), in reality the officers consulted with
the NCO first, before giving the orders.

OK, now how to apply this to role-playing?

First, you don't make the PCs all the same rank. Quite frankly, it
never happens that way.

Second, appoint one player-character in the group to be the overall
leader. (Those of you who have been role-playing for a fairly long
time probably do this already in one way or another.) This guy is
in charge, and he probably will be the one who talks to the gamemaster
the most. When the gamemaster asks, "What are you going to do?" then
the group leader (and him/her alone) will usually answer for the whole
group.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the other players DON'T talk to the
gamemaster. Players can always ask the gamemaster for information, and
gamemasters are within their rights to talk directly to a specific
player. But for the most part, players (and player characters) will
mostly be talking with the group leader, and with each other.

Beyond that, almost anything goes. Keep in mind basic rank etiquette:
always address superior OFFICERS as "sir" (or "ma'am"), address
sergeants as "sergeant," and only address others of equal rank by
their first name (however, senior officers may address junior officers
by their first name, too). If a superior asks you to do something, it
should be always treated as an order, whether explicit or implied. On
the other hand, when a subordinate SUGGESTS an alternative (ESPECIALLY
a senior NCO), then a superior is well advised to listen.

Finally, anyone who holds the rank of private has no rights. He does
exactly what he is told to do, speaks only when spoken to, and doesn't
question orders. (I'd recommend that only NPCs should hold the rank of
private, for obvious reasons.)

(These are, of course, ideal organizations and don't take character
quirks into consideration.)

My $.02

-- Jon
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:57:09 +0100
JonSzeto said on 3:14/14 Mar 98...

[snip RL rank example]
> OK, now how to apply this to role-playing?
>
> First, you don't make the PCs all the same rank. Quite frankly, it
> never happens that way.
>
> Second, appoint one player-character in the group to be the overall
> leader. (Those of you who have been role-playing for a fairly long
> time probably do this already in one way or another.) This guy is
> in charge, and he probably will be the one who talks to the gamemaster
> the most. When the gamemaster asks, "What are you going to do?" then
> the group leader (and him/her alone) will usually answer for the whole
> group.

For choosing who to give the highest rank, I suggest paying careful
attention to the players in other sessions, before you start the military
campaign. There is usually one player who takes the lead, and the others
tend to listen to him or her. This player would be the best choice for the
leader, because it won't cause many clashes between players. (Of course,
if you're going to play Paranoia, make this player the Hygene Officer, NOT
the Team Leader :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Why live in the world when you can live in your head?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 7
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 00:31:12 +0000
In article <199803131856.TAA27197@******.passagen.se>, Stefan
<casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE> writes
>Well since I am a weekend reader of this mailinglist this might come
>alittle late but durring the week I have had some spare time to think
>about this Special Forces campaign issue, so bare with me.
>
>RANK 'n' COMMAND
>My group have played other "military" like games (we played alot of
>Prime Directive (Star Trek)) and well there is a problem that usually
>pops up there from time to time, it's RANK and ORDERS. How do you
>deal with the command problem if one player outranks another ? Should
>you allow the higher ranking player to command the lower ranking one
>? Should you allow them to "boss" eachother around ? If you do this
>could quickly get kinda borring. So is the solution making all PCs
>the same rank ?

Jon S answered this superbly. No, the team wouldn't all be the same
rank, there would be a well-defined chain of command. While when there's
leisure to talk and plan, all ideas are welcome and discussion is
invited: in action, the commander gives an order and everyone else
obeys, _right now_. Stopping to say "Actually, I think if we-" will get
you and/or your teammates killed.

>SKILLS
>On that I guess you also could and would learn things like your
>"speciallity" whatever that might be:
>
>Communications, Leadership, Demolitions, Heavy Weapons.
>
>I assume that the future speciallities would be something like:
>Team Leader - Command
>Communications Expert
>Heavy Weapons operator
>Mage
>Demolitions
>Sniper
>Hand 2 Hand Specialist

There wouldn't be a hand-to-hand specialist. Close combat would be
something the team would be trained in, but it's a last-ditch measure
rather than a preferred option.


>GEAR
>This does have a valid point when it comes to cyber/biotech. No
>soldier can afford any of the cool and expensive stuff so they have
>to pretty much give it to them, should you then allow the players to
>go on a cyberspree since uncle sam, or whomever, is paying the bill ?

No. I'd suggest that they get usual character generation money: if they
want cyber, they can have it, because Uncle Sam is paying for them to be
good soldiers. However, custom cyber will be very hard to explain, as
will anything esoteric: also, as GM go over the list with an
accountant's eye. Wired Reflexes II? Why? Boosted III is half the price
and very little worse...

Bone Lacing would be likely, at least plastic, as would Enhanced
Articulation. Not so much for the direct benefits, but to protect
expensive assets from wear and tear: EA should cut down on knee and
ankle injuries (the bane of SF troopers) and bone lacing reduces
fractures. Make those compulsory for anyone getting cyber fitted :)
Ditto datajacks and smartlinks.

SF troops would likely be augmented, but they wouldn't be deltaware
monstrosities: too expensive per soldier. For nY100K you can fit
Boosted-III, goo

Boosted Reflexes III 2.8 90
Cybereyes with - 0.2 5
Low Light - 3
Thermographic - 3
Flare Compensation - 2
Optical Image Mag III 0.2 6
Rangefinder 0.1 2
Datajack 0.2 1
Orientation System 0.5 15
Skillwires III 0.3 15
Damper Hearing 0.1 3.5
Plastic Bone Lacing 0.5 7.5
Smartlink II 0.5 3.2

Essence cost 5.4, nuyen cost 156.2. Add 40K for the enhanced
articulation.

Remember, also, the costs given are retail: when you have a five-year
contract to enhance two hundred graduating SF troopers per annum
according to a planned timescale, the cost per trooper drops
significantly. So the military pay less than the above would imply:
considering the benefits, I'd say it was worthwhile.

>MAGIC
>If there is something new and powerful out there you bet the military
>is going to find a use for it, well now there is magic. Do they allow
>magicans to select there own spells ? or is it going to be like the
>basic training that the military require that the mage knows certain
>spells ? I would assume that they want some controll of what the mage
>knows.

As with the military today: they want you to know it, they'll make sure
you do. Spell lists would mostly be imposed, though for reality and
fairness the player should choose how 20% of the Force Points get spent.

>Shamens would in my campaing be a big nono, since they are well to
>much "nature" and they sing and chant and dance and smoke weird herbs
>amd talk to imaginary animal totems on other planes. :)

They can do magic. They're in.

>And ofcause they also helped in blowing the military away durring the
>great ghost dance, and the military is like an elephant and never
>forgets. Mages are just more business like.

Not true. It beat us last time. we believe in it in a big way because it
wins wars. Shamans would be rarer than mages, but imagine the value a
Wolf or Dog or Shark shaman would be to a combat team. Bear shamans
would be drawn to medical units - it's where the wounded are. And Snake
shamans in intelligence units...

Hermetic magic would be more common, but shamans would be there too.

>CONTACTS
>How do you do with contacts and what use do you have for them now ?
>It is not like you are going to get to call your street doc or corp
>wage slave and ask them before they drop you in the jungle, since you
>rarely get to know what you are supposed to do until just in time.
>
>So I guess contacts would be limited more or less to other military
>and goverment type people.

You'd know people off base still. You'd have a social life outside the
Army. You would have little cause to know a fixer or a street doc, but
you might know a mechanic, a rigger, a bartender, the bouncer at your
favourite nightclub, your neighbourhood policeman, a local businessman
who you saved from being mugged, the manager of your local Stuffer
Shack...

>MISSIONS
>The best thing about military missions is that they don't really have
>to make sense to the players since they will most likely be lowly
>grunts and they have no way of seeing the whole picture. So this
>could be a great way of messing with there minds :)
>
>Here just follows a bunch of "little" ideas of possible missions I
>have come up with durring the week.
>
<snipped ones that aren't a problem>

>* SAD - Search and Destroy.
>Might be usefull on "bughive" mission where the troopers go out and
>kill bugs or try out new weapons on the bugs, perfect to use before
>they sprayed bugcity. Have your team be the test team for the agent.
>
>These are also general go in and kill everything you see and then
>burn the place and get out type missions

Generally, these are "hide on a hilltop and designate the target for
air-dropped precision guided bombs" rather than storming in yourself.
(See "Clear and Present Danger" for a good example, or read the book for
even better treatment).

>* Recover crashed object.
>Satellite that has gone down in some remote and hostile area. Chopper
>or plane that has gone down and in need of a rescue, can easily
>become a Predator like mission.

Or the finale of GI Jane, which is also a surprisingly good film (I
expected to hate it, but I thought it was pretty good at capturing the
esprit de corps of the group, and in covering the necessary harshness of
the training)

>* Hostage Situation.
>Terrorists take important hostages that have to be freeded and the
>evil terrorists have to be stone cold dead.

Princess Gate, 1981. Again, prime SF missions.

>* Espionage.
>Take pictures, place bug, steal information. This is the mission
>where they don't bring the big guns for a change where they never
>want to be seen. This can be used against other goverments and larger
>corps.

Most of the time, SF don't want to be seen. A small unit can be
overwhelmed by numbers, however elite its members: better to be where
the enemy isn't.

>* Try new gear.
>This is a funny one, have done it quite a few times while playing
>Paranoia. Put them down somewhere totally remote with some new hitech
>gear that will fail and mess up. Loads of fun.

This would be one for a training exercise. New kit doesn't go out unless
it's been well worked through in practice and the bugs ironed out.

Mind you, having elite SF troops trampled by weekend-warrior reservists
on an exercise because they were using some unreliable new gear is
always good for a giggle...

>* Blow something up.
>Go in and blow something up, kill, crush and destroy.

More often spot for someone else to drop Something Nasty on the target
with great accuracy.

>* Train rebel forces
>Train the locals to fight non-friendly goverment, probably in Aztlan.

Key SF role, in fact what the Green Berets were created for.


>Well enough ... Hope someone found something interesting and worthy
>of you comments and attention.

The ones you missed...

Red Team
The target is a friendly installation. Your mission is to leave
insulting messages on the CO's blotter and steal the picture of his wife
from his desk. Base Security know this is an exercise, but know you're
coming and have been promised a 72-hour pass if they can catch you.

Orange Force
There's a training exercise in progress out on Salisbury Plain (for the
Brits, find a UCAS equivalent). You're there to scare the yokel regular
troops. Ambush their patrols, infiltrate their harbours, mess up their
lives, teach them the importance of camouflage, noise discipline and
alertness.

Executive Protection
Some VIP is visiting the foreign country of Uckfay Ouyay. You're
assigned to keep him alive for the duration of his stay. He wants to see
the sights, have some fun, and doesn't seem to believe that anything bad
could possibly happen to a UCAS diplomat in a foreign country...


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 8
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 04:10:03 +0000
On 15 Mar 98, Paul J. Adam disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip>
> Jon S answered this superbly. No, the team wouldn't all be the same
> rank, there would be a well-defined chain of command. While when
> there's leisure to talk and plan, all ideas are welcome and
> discussion is invited: in action, the commander gives an order and
> everyone else obeys, _right now_. Stopping to say "Actually, I think
> if we-" will get you and/or your teammates killed.

Yep.
Of course, that makes my idea about a cursed team pretty invalid, but
then, I used it in Star Wars, not SR... ;>

<snip>
> >I assume that the future speciallities would be something like:
[...]
> There wouldn't be a hand-to-hand specialist. Close combat would be
> something the team would be trained in, but it's a last-ditch
> measure rather than a preferred option.

Agreed. One possible function that was omitted is
intrusion/electronics specialis, for that infiltration missions - you
know, disable alarm system, pick locks and stuff...

Oh, and then there's also the Combat Decker, though I suppose that
would be the same person as above (and prolly a communications
specialist, too).

<snip>
<snip equipment>

> As with the military today: they want you to know it, they'll make
> sure you do. Spell lists would mostly be imposed, though for reality
> and fairness the player should choose how 20% of the Force Points
> get spent.

I'd also suggest something like giving the players a break on the
cost of imposed spells... Like, 5 bonus force points or something
like that...

[snip stuff about shamans I agree with]

> >CONTACTS

[...]

> You'd know people off base still. You'd have a social life outside
> the Army. You would have little cause to know a fixer or a street
> doc, but you might know a mechanic, a rigger, a bartender, the
> bouncer at your favourite nightclub, your neighbourhood policeman, a
> local businessman who you saved from being mugged, the manager of
> your local Stuffer Shack...

Or you could know, say, a Mafia Don because you're dating his
daughter. Etc etc. There's always a way of justifying why you got
that contact, just use those grey cells of yours. ;)

> >MISSIONS
[...]

> >* Recover crashed object.
> >Satellite that has gone down in some remote and hostile area. Chopper
> >or plane that has gone down and in need of a rescue, can easily
> >become a Predator like mission.
>
> Or the finale of GI Jane, which is also a surprisingly good film (I
> expected to hate it, but I thought it was pretty good at capturing
> the esprit de corps of the group, and in covering the necessary
> harshness of the training)

Heh. I went to GI Jane expecting some cheesy movie, but I actually
liked it. And it gave me nice ideas for my Star Wars specops
campaign... <grin>

[...]
> >* Try new gear.
> >This is a funny one, have done it quite a few times while playing
> >Paranoia. Put them down somewhere totally remote with some new hitech
> >gear that will fail and mess up. Loads of fun.
>
> This would be one for a training exercise. New kit doesn't go out
> unless it's been well worked through in practice and the bugs ironed
> out.

Agreed. Of course, in a normal mission, their equipment could turn
out to be sabotaged. <eGMg>

[...]


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Fight for the right to pretend to work.
Message no. 9
From: Wafflemiesters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 15:01:17 -0600
> Stopping to say "Actually, I think if we-" will get
> you and/or your teammates killed.
>

This should be equally true of a NON-military combat unit (IE
shadowteam), and indeed often is. Shadowteams need some sort of
motivation towards combat cohesiveness, so finding one for characters on
a military team shouldn't be hard.

> >SKILLS
> >On that I guess you also could and would learn things like your
> >"speciallity" whatever that might be:
> >
> >Communications, Leadership, Demolitions, Heavy Weapons.

Not to mention either organic or attached Magic and Matrix support.
Military level ops in both would likely involve whole specialized
squads, but getting a decker or mage "on site" for certain ops would
probably be a good thing. And E-war riggers can do some NICE stuff,
too.

> >GEAR
> >This does have a valid point when it comes to cyber/biotech. No
> >soldier can afford any of the cool and expensive stuff so they have
> >to pretty much give it to them, should you then allow the players to
> >go on a cyberspree since uncle sam, or whomever, is paying the bill ?
>
> No. I'd suggest that they get usual character generation money: if they
> want cyber, they can have it, because Uncle Sam is paying for them to be
> good soldiers. However, custom cyber will be very hard to explain, as
> will anything esoteric: also, as GM go over the list with an
> accountant's eye. Wired Reflexes II? Why? Boosted III is half the price
> and very little worse...
>

Look at the stuff some of the Azzie special forces guys get. They are
REAL heavy on bioware, even synaptic accelerators, probably because it
doesn't break and need fixing out in the jungle. Or maybe because
you're a better blood sacrifice if you have more essence.
Either way, penny-pinching did not seem a concern. These are specail
forces- give them them cool toys, but obey KISS logic.
Regarding cash and gear, they may want stuff the military DIDN'T get
them, and maybe doesn't know about (ESPECIALLY contacts). Of course,
the militarywould know all thier cyber and most of thier contacts,
Butmaybe notabout certain gear stashes, etc.
I'd give them all a set amount of gear they can choose that's provided
by the military, and then let them spend character cash as normal, maybe
after reducing it some percent amount.
That way, you don't get physads who don't have any weapons and such.
You might also create a new "street index" reflecting the price of goods
to military personel. Certain items are real cheap In American PX's ,
and that might extend to non-compulsry weapons and 'wares in the SR
world. I'd definately advise this for a "cop" campaign.

> Bone Lacing would be likely, at least plastic, as would Enhanced
> Articulation.
> Ditto datajacks and smartlinks.
>
> SF troops would likely be augmented, but they wouldn't be deltaware
> monstrosities: too expensive per soldier. For nY100K you can fit
> Boosted-III, goo

Sure they would (be delta monsters)- look at the soldier in
cybertechnology. <g> Deltaware is a bad buy at character creation,
though. I agree- the military would go for durability (Booste reflexes,
bone lacing, and muscle aug can't break) and cost effectiveness over
"flash".
Small, cheapish cyberbits (like Smartlinks) might be custom just for the
lower upkeep cost, not to mention being less likely to create prolbems
in the feild.

>
> Boosted Reflexes III 2.8 90
> Cybereyes with - 0.2 5
> Low Light - 3
> Thermographic - 3
> Flare Compensation - 2
> Optical Image Mag III 0.2 6
> Rangefinder 0.1 2
> Datajack 0.2 1
> Orientation System 0.5 15
> Skillwires III 0.3 15
> Damper Hearing 0.1 3.5
> Plastic Bone Lacing 0.5 7.5
> Smartlink II 0.5 3.2
>
> Essence cost 5.4, nuyen cost 156.2. Add 40K for the enhanced
> articulation.

I'd add a Platelet factory and / or trauma damper, as well as extended
volume and sythracardium- they greatly enhance survivability and
endurance.
The sounddampers require cyberears, but likely at least one squad member
should have a "night fight" package that includes fancy earmods, or the
physad equivalent.
FASA seems big on grunts (and cops) with implant radio gear, but I
can'tsee why they can't carry the stuff just as easily.

> As with the military today: they want you to know it, they'll make sure
> you do. Spell lists would mostly be imposed, though for reality and
> fairness the player should choose how 20% of the Force Points get spent.
>

Mages are given a lot more lattitude in general, so I'd say require a
few specific spells (probaly ones they would want anyhow, but maybe
something weird, like "Mindlink, Commander X"), but allow the mage about
50% force to do as he likes.

> Shamans would be rarer than mages, but imagine the value a
> Wolf or Dog or Shark shaman would be to a combat team. Bear shamans
> would be drawn to medical units - it's where the wounded are. And Snake
> shamans in intelligence units...
>
> Hermetic magic would be more common, but shamans would be there too.

And their use of nature spirits would be invaluble to a specail forces
team. Heck, just a shamnic conjuring adept would be a great addition!

>
> >CONTACTS

> You'd know people off base still. You'd have a social life outside the
> Army. You would have little cause to know a fixer or a street doc, but
> you might know a mechanic, a rigger, a bartender, the bouncer at your
> favourite nightclub, your neighbourhood policeman, a local businessman
> who you saved from being mugged, the manager of your local Stuffer
> Shack...

And you'd have freinds from before you enlisted. It seems most computer
consultants have one special forces buddy- that road goes both ways....
Message no. 10
From: Eric JL Nute <nute@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 15:15:36 -0800
With the recent glamourization and expositions of the Navy SEALs, I'm sure
you could get lots of material about how to set up an SF unit. Get a book
on the SEALs, and just modify for the future. Special Forces training is
already expensive- a little more cyberwear is not likely to be a big deal.
As far as chain of command, work this out with your players. Part of
military training is breaking down the individual so that he can function
as part of a team. If your players are interested in telling military
stories, then they need to remember that they will be taking orders. And
even the general takes orders from the President .

Eric
Message no. 11
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:01:56 GMT
>*snip SF training is expensive, adding cyber is not likely to be a big deal.*
>Part of military training is breaking down the individual so that he can
>function as part of a team. If your players are interested in telling
>military stories, then they need to remember that they will be taking orders.

Here's a little thought - without that training, and without being, as
Eric so quaintly put it, 'broken down as an individual so he can function
as part of a team', how can your players do so? They might pretend to,
for a while, but it'll shine through that they are a group of individuals,
and not a team. And they will certainly chafe at taking orders - or misuse
the authority they have if able to give orders.

If they can't pull it off convincingly, is it worth trying? Probably, but as
GM you might want to take steps to help make it convincing...

*Not make them part of the 'best of the best of the BEST, SIR!', but rather
a good unit... that way they, as a unit, has something to prove, as well -
that they can be as good as those SAS guys, or whatnot, and helps focus
tempers outwards.

*Make sure that whoever is the commanding officer has a few marks on him - not
enough to throw him out, but enough so that he can't take many complaints
against him for abusing authority. And of course, he won't be assigned
hardened veterans. (They might be eventually, of course.).

*On the flip side, the 'grunts' are fairly new, too, and insubordination,
hitting an officer or similar might well be an end to their careers...
gives you a situation where both 'sides' are fairly interested in a
friendly, but professional, attitude. Be careful, it might backfire
badly if it effectively puts someone at the mercy of someone else.

*The 'grunts' should be fairly new in the unit, and hasn't worked much
together before.

*Send them on a few 'team building' missions in the beginning, where they
learn to cooperate, and see everyone's useful, whatever. Sent in as
target practice in a competition for a really hot SF team, for instance,
where they need to use inventive tricks and teamwork to pull it off.
(Someone else mentioned sending them in as OPFOR and make them know they're
supposed to loose - and then make sure they're motivated as hell to win.
That's a *good* idea.).
Message no. 12
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:20:38 PST
>Here's a little thought - without that training, and without being, as
>Eric so quaintly put it, 'broken down as an individual so he can
function
>as part of a team', how can your players do so? They might pretend to,
>for a while, but it'll shine through that they are a group of
individuals,
>and not a team. And they will certainly chafe at taking orders - or
misuse
>the authority they have if able to give orders.

First off, if you have this kind of problem, it lies within your
group. Not within the game or the GM.
But, that aside, what I plan to do is see who among my gamers is
willing to be a leader. I then tell them that I will give them a
leadership position based on how well thought-out the character is.
Tell them I want a character background for each players, and whoever is
the best, gets to be the leader first. I will also remind them that the
person they have to answer to is an NPC- in other words, the GM. If I
think someone is misusing their position as leader, may have the NPC
demote him, or I may have the team out in a secluded area doing a
mission... and quietly remind the other PCs that they could "make it
look like an accident".
When you have leadership over a team that is just as well armed as
you are, you don't have room to be a power-monger.

>
>If they can't pull it off convincingly, is it worth trying? Probably,
but as
>GM you might want to take steps to help make it convincing...

That's not the point. The point is: Are they having fun? If they are
having fun, who am I to change things?

>
>*Not make them part of the 'best of the best of the BEST, SIR!', but
rather
> a good unit... that way they, as a unit, has something to prove, as
well -
> that they can be as good as those SAS guys, or whatnot, and helps
focus
> tempers outwards.

By definition, Special Forces is the "best of the best". However, you
could make them all effectively newbies to combat and have them part of
a unit that is either unknown or frequently made fun of, and make them
rebuild their unit's rep of being good.

>*On the flip side, the 'grunts' are fairly new, too, and
insubordination,
> hitting an officer or similar might well be an end to their careers...
> gives you a situation where both 'sides' are fairly interested in a
> friendly, but professional, attitude. Be careful, it might backfire
> badly if it effectively puts someone at the mercy of someone else.

Not at the mercy. In the military, a soldier has the room to question
authority. If your superior orders you to do something in the field,
you do it. But you then report it to your CO after that. If it's
something you can't do(like kill a child, for example). YOu can refuse
there, but you'd have to answer to a courts-martial later(and so would
whoever ordered you to do it). A good example of this (as far as movies
go) is the movie "Casualties of War".

>
>*The 'grunts' should be fairly new in the unit, and hasn't worked much
> together before.

That's a given. The same can be said for any new Shadowrunning team.
:)

>
>*Send them on a few 'team building' missions in the beginning, where
they
> learn to cooperate, and see everyone's useful, whatever. Sent in as
> target practice in a competition for a really hot SF team, for
instance,
> where they need to use inventive tricks and teamwork to pull it off.
> (Someone else mentioned sending them in as OPFOR and make them know
they're
> supposed to loose - and then make sure they're motivated as hell to
win.
> That's a *good* idea.).

Yep, it is. And I saw Heartbreak Ridge, too. :)


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I
am right."
-Ashleigh Brilliant


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 13
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 05:39:26 +0000
> >Here's a little thought - without that training, and without being, as
> >Eric so quaintly put it, 'broken down as an individual so he can
> function
> >as part of a team', how can your players do so? They might pretend to,
> >for a while, but it'll shine through that they are a group of
> individuals,
> >and not a team. And they will certainly chafe at taking orders - or
> misuse
> >the authority they have if able to give orders.
>
> First off, if you have this kind of problem, it lies within your
> group. Not within the game or the GM.

I wouldn't expect it to happen automatically, but I would expect
friction. I think it's wiser to try to avoid that friction in the
first place, rather than do extreme measures like inciting the
soldiers to cack the leader if he gets obnoxious.

*snip 'an obnoxious leader can 'have an accident'*
I'd try fairly hard not to make things slip that far - internal
problems isn't much fun to RP, at least not if they go that far.

> >If they can't pull it off convincingly, is it worth trying? Probably,
> but as
> >GM you might want to take steps to help make it convincing...
>
> That's not the point. The point is: Are they having fun? If they are
> having fun, who am I to change things?

Well, it's better with convincing and fun, than just convincing or
fun, IMO - part of the fun, at least for me, is that things are
somewhat realistic taking certain assumptions about how the world
works into account. (Existence of magic, and so on.). I find that if
the setting isn't convincing - that I cannot make myself believe that
it might happen - then I usually do not find it entertaining.


> >*Not make them part of the 'best of the best of the BEST, SIR!', but
> rather
> > a good unit... that way they, as a unit, has something to prove, as
> well -
> > that they can be as good as those SAS guys, or whatnot, and helps
> focus
> > tempers outwards.
>
> By definition, Special Forces is the "best of the best".

True. You missed one 'of the best' though, so I guess the point is
still valid. :)

If a country has three different special forces units, one or more is
usually considered 'better' than another, yet all of them are good.

*snip*
> > gives you a situation where both 'sides' are fairly interested in a
> > friendly, but professional, attitude. Be careful, it might backfire
> > badly if it effectively puts someone at the mercy of someone else.
>
> Not at the mercy. In the military, a soldier has the room to question
> authority. If your superior orders you to do something in the field,
> you do it. But you then report it to your CO after that.
*snip*

And situations where someone says, 'I know you did X. Unless you do
me favor Y, then I'll report it.' doesn't happen? Sure, blackmailing
someone that is supposed to watch your back is shortsighted and
potentially stupid, but it's also human nature..
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 14
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Special Forces Stuff Part II (Kinda long)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:06:33 -0700
/ >*snip SF training is expensive, adding cyber is not likely to be a big deal.*

I have no idea who wrote this. If you want an example of cyberware +
special forces try reading "Cobra" by Timothy Zhan. It's a good book
too :)

-David
--
"I don't think of all the misery,
but of all the beauty that still remains."
- Anne Frank
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

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