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Message no. 1
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:39:52 -0400
Nigel <westln@***.EDU> wrote
>One question comes to mind. Once you have successfully passed
>through an object, do you need to make another test to
>do it again? I am going to assume yes, but I hate assuming.

I would say yes as well.

>Second question. If a mage has successfully passed through an
>object and is now in the center, lets say hollow area. If the
>mage goes unconscious what then? Do you make a test to see
>if he returns to his body. I assume if he fails he dies,
>other wise he lives?
>
>Third question. Again assuming your inside the hollow object.
>Someone "shakes your body, or slaps it doing just a little
>damage, does the mage still notice it? Again I would assume
>yes.

This raises the whole "what happens when a person's astral form is knocked
unconscious" (reaches Deadly Stun damage). AFAIK, there is no current
"official" answer (at least not that I have seen). The general opinion seems
to be that the character "snaps back" to his physical body, which is
certainly a possibility. Another is the astral form simply drifts in astral
space, in which case the projector had better wake up in time to get back to
his body before his Essence runs out and he dies. And of course, if the
projector snaps back, what if there is a barrier between him and his body?

I tend to favor the idea of the astral form of an unconscious character
snapping back to the physical body automatically with no test required and no
penalty other than the character being unconscious until he would normally
have less than Deadly Stun damage. I realized some might consider this an
"escape hatch:" if you're astrally trapped, just knock yourself out and
you're home free; but I just don't buy the idea you can knock yourself out
just like that (with a spell or any other way), and any player who tried that
in my game would get knocked out all right; the PLAYER, not the character : )

As far as the projector noticing stimulus inflicted on his body, the only
fact we have is an astral projector automatically knows if his body is
killed. Other than that, I would say a projector should know if any injury
(any boxes of damage) are inflicted on his body and might be able to detect
something like a hard slap or the like with a simple Perception Tests.
Otherwise, no stimulus affecting the body is noticed by the astral form.

BTW, I don't buy the interpretation "any damage whatsoever to the physical
body kills it." The projector's physical body is just as resiliant as always,
it's merely helpless and easy to inflict a Deadly wound on if someone wants
to do so. But random or accidental damage in necessarily instantly fatal to
an astral projector's body.

What are everyone's thoughts on the "unconscious astral forms" question?

Steve K.
Message no. 2
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 03:44:36 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-18 03:31:01 EDT, you write:

> This raises the whole "what happens when a person's astral form is knocked
> unconscious" (reaches Deadly Stun damage)

Actually, there is no such thing as Stun Damage when a mage is astrally
projecting, any and all damage or drain thy suffer is Physical. And if a
mage died horrendously enough in the astral, then their limp astral self
could be floating around in the astral, as a testament to the tragedy they
suffered to have themselves permanently burned into the astral.

AirWisp
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:07:37 +0100
Steve Kenson said on 22:39/17 Aug 97...

> I tend to favor the idea of the astral form of an unconscious character
> snapping back to the physical body automatically with no test required and no
> penalty other than the character being unconscious until he would normally
> have less than Deadly Stun damage.

Same here. It fits in with what's said in some of the novels (Burning
Bright springs to mind) but it is badly in need of some rules, IMO.

> I realized some might consider this an "escape hatch:" if you're
> astrally trapped, just knock yourself out and you're home free; but I
> just don't buy the idea you can knock yourself out just like that (with
> a spell or any other way)

It might be slight rules abuse, but I don't see why it isn't possible, if
you say that being knocked unconscious snaps you back to your body.
Hitting yourself until you fall unconscious would be difficult, IMHO, but
using a spell would be somewhat easier. I might throw a Willpower test in
there to see if the character is capable of hurting him-/herself enough to
go unconscious, though.

> and any player who tried that in my game would get knocked out all
> right; the PLAYER, not the character : )

Remind me not to play with you as the GM, should I ever get the chance :)

> As far as the projector noticing stimulus inflicted on his body, the only
> fact we have is an astral projector automatically knows if his body is
> killed. Other than that, I would say a projector should know if any injury
> (any boxes of damage) are inflicted on his body and might be able to detect
> something like a hard slap or the like with a simple Perception Tests.
> Otherwise, no stimulus affecting the body is noticed by the astral form.

This sounds good. It makes for a good way of contacting an astrally
projecting character -- slap him/her across the face and hope the
Perception test succeeds, so the character knows something is wrong and
can go back to the body's physical location to ask what's up.

> BTW, I don't buy the interpretation "any damage whatsoever to the physical
> body kills it." The projector's physical body is just as resiliant as always,
> it's merely helpless and easy to inflict a Deadly wound on if someone wants
> to do so. But random or accidental damage in necessarily instantly fatal to
> an astral projector's body.

It looks much too harsh, yeah. Technically you can die by projecting wile
standing up, since falling to the ground can cause damage. I have this
feeling it's one of FASA's over-balanced rules (IMO they have a habit of
taking game balance too far at times) and would best be adjusted a bit.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Our foreign policy is not a political issue."
--Harry S. Truman
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 4
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:46:28 +1000
> Nigel <westln@***.EDU> wrote
> >One question comes to mind. Once you have successfully passed
> >through an object, do you need to make another test to
> >do it again? I am going to assume yes, but I hate assuming.
>
> I would say yes as well.
>

Definitely, otherwise the follow-on theory (corollary ??) states that you
can automatically affect an aura forever-after after doing once.

The difference between passing through an aura and dumping a spell
through it is only one of marginal degrees.


> BTW, I don't buy the interpretation "any damage whatsoever to the physical
> body kills it." The projector's physical body is just as resiliant as always,
> it's merely helpless and easy to inflict a Deadly wound on if someone wants
> to do so. But random or accidental damage in necessarily instantly fatal to
> an astral projector's body.
>
> What are everyone's thoughts on the "unconscious astral forms" question?
>

I like the snaps-back-automatically theme; It's less deadly to the
players (And NPS's alike). AFAIK You need to drop to S stun before you wake
up, and that can be anywhere between 4 and 1 hours (in most cases)....
If the PC is skating close to the essence limit, he dies and has no say
in the matter.. Unavoidable character death isn't 'fun'.

Marty
Message no. 5
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:03:27 +0100
|This raises the whole "what happens when a person's astral form is knocked
|unconscious" (reaches Deadly Stun damage). AFAIK, there is no current
|"official" answer (at least not that I have seen). The general opinion seems
|to be that the character "snaps back" to his physical body, which is
|certainly a possibility. Another is the astral form simply drifts in astral
|space, in which case the projector had better wake up in time to get back to
|his body before his Essence runs out and he dies. And of course, if the
|projector snaps back, what if there is a barrier between him and his body?

How about this?
If a character is knocked unconscious whilst in astral space, his snaps back
to his body, punching through any astral barriers in the way.
The is NOT a good option for getting out of trouble however, because
physical damage (based on the rating of the barriers) is inflicted with no
resistance test (as he has no willpower to resist, being unconcious).

<EGMG>

How's that?



--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
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Message no. 6
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:58:01 -0400
Spike once dared to write,

>How about this?
>If a character is knocked unconscious whilst in astral space, his snaps back
>to his body, punching through any astral barriers in the way.
>The is NOT a good option for getting out of trouble however, because
>physical damage (based on the rating of the barriers) is inflicted with no
>resistance test (as he has no willpower to resist, being unconcious).
>
><EGMG>
>
>How's that?

OUCH! That works for me providing the astral barrier couldn't be
circumvented on the trip back. But we still have the nagging question of
what happens to the "unconscious" astral form if the body was moved? Some
type of test would have to be made for it to locate it. The justification
for this homing beacon could be an extension of my idea for astral forms
not being statical locked to it's physical counterpart. The magician's
will is forcing the separation in this case as opposed to the astral form
forcing the separation of a FAB net. Without the magician's will to keep
the two (aura and physical) separated then the astral will be snapped
back to it's physical component sliding around any astral barrier it can.
Think of it as "jacking out of the Astral". Using this logic could also
require a will test to remain astral when damaged on either side if you
so wanted. That all depends of your view of the difficulty of astral
projection. I wouldn't require it though for game play.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"But we know evil is an exact science,
being carefully, correctly wrong!"
-Shriekback, Nemesis

I am MC23
Message no. 7
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:30:57 GMT
Gurth writes
> Steve Kenson said on 22:39/17 Aug 97...

> > I tend to favor the idea of the astral form of an unconscious character
> > snapping back to the physical body automatically with no test required and no
> > penalty other than the character being unconscious until he would normally
> > have less than Deadly Stun damage.
>
> Same here. It fits in with what's said in some of the novels (Burning
> Bright springs to mind) but it is badly in need of some rules, IMO.
>
Agreed also, but i have supported this before. This still leaves you
painfully undefended if someone can access your body meantime, and if
they saw your aura one followed watcher spirit is all it takes to
find. If you were on a run and you just go unconcious a stim patch
will wake the mage for 5 minutes for 'what went wrong' but thats
about it, astral support still non existent for a mimimum about 2
hours (and thats with some good dice :) )

> > I realized some might consider this an "escape hatch:" if you're
> > astrally trapped, just knock yourself out and you're home free; but I
> > just don't buy the idea you can knock yourself out just like that (with
> > a spell or any other way)
I can see why but given that if you cannot 'instant kill' astral
traps are potentially creatable.

> It might be slight rules abuse, but I don't see why it isn't possible, if
> you say that being knocked unconscious snaps you back to your body.
> Hitting yourself until you fall unconscious would be difficult, IMHO, but
> using a spell would be somewhat easier. I might throw a Willpower test in
> there to see if the character is capable of hurting him-/herself enough to
> go unconscious, though.
>
Yeah. Given the present rules i would allow this based on the fact
that otherwise auto kill traps can be made, if Steves lastest
suggestions became true i could live with this as the magician could
always stand a chance of breaking through any astral barrier.

> > and any player who tried that in my game would get knocked out all
> > right; the PLAYER, not the character : )
>
> Remind me not to play with you as the GM, should I ever get the chance :)
>
Time to take precautions, now if only i could cast a barrier spell :)

> > As far as the projector noticing stimulus inflicted on his body, the only
> > fact we have is an astral projector automatically knows if his body is
> > killed. Other than that, I would say a projector should know if any injury
> > (any boxes of damage) are inflicted on his body and might be able to detect
> > something like a hard slap or the like with a simple Perception Tests.
> > Otherwise, no stimulus affecting the body is noticed by the astral form.
>
Agreed.
> This sounds good. It makes for a good way of contacting an astrally
> projecting character -- slap him/her across the face and hope the
> Perception test succeeds, so the character knows something is wrong and
> can go back to the body's physical location to ask what's up.
>
Again looks good.

> > BTW, I don't buy the interpretation "any damage whatsoever to the physical
> > body kills it." The projector's physical body is just as resiliant as
always,
> > it's merely helpless and easy to inflict a Deadly wound on if someone wants
> > to do so. But random or accidental damage in necessarily instantly fatal to
> > an astral projector's body.
>
> It looks much too harsh, yeah. Technically you can die by projecting wile
> standing up, since falling to the ground can cause damage.
Actually thats undefined! Nowhere does it say what happens if you are
balanced and on your feet when you project, it has often been assumed
that with your mind away you lose your balance pretty quick but
nowhere does SR address the problem.

I have always though this rule a little harsh as well. With it if the
mages buddies are attacked while hes away it's almost certainly death
no save no nothing, bashed about and captured is oh so much more fun
:). And as you say with no combat pools the body is kind of an easy
target and thats assuming they don't do something 'fatal i don't care
what the rules say - bullet through brain = DEAD' nasty :)

Mark
Message no. 8
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:33:15 GMT
Spike writes

> |This raises the whole "what happens when a person's astral form is knocked
> |unconscious" (reaches Deadly Stun damage). AFAIK, there is no current
> |"official" answer (at least not that I have seen). The general opinion
seems
> |to be that the character "snaps back" to his physical body, which is
> |certainly a possibility. Another is the astral form simply drifts in astral
> |space, in which case the projector had better wake up in time to get back to
> |his body before his Essence runs out and he dies. And of course, if the
> |projector snaps back, what if there is a barrier between him and his body?
>
> How about this?
> If a character is knocked unconscious whilst in astral space, his snaps back
> to his body, punching through any astral barriers in the way.
> The is NOT a good option for getting out of trouble however, because
> physical damage (based on the rating of the barriers) is inflicted with no
> resistance test (as he has no willpower to resist, being unconcious).
>
> <EGMG>
>
> How's that?
>
Could be, another option worth considering, given barriers do a base
M or so nasty without being fatal, take a D stun and M physical and
you are going to take half a day or so to come round, meanwhile the
corp hit squad are using wathers to find you and arriving on site.

Mark
Message no. 9
From: Pilgrim <jade@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:41:54 +1000
On Mon, 18 Aug 1997 03:44:36 -0400 Mike Bobroff wrote:

> > This raises the whole "what happens when a person's astral form is knocked
> > unconscious" (reaches Deadly Stun damage)
>
> Actually, there is no such thing as Stun Damage when a mage is astrally
> projecting, any and all damage or drain thy suffer is Physical. And if a
> mage died horrendously enough in the astral, then their limp astral self
> could be floating around in the astral, as a testament to the tragedy they
> suffered to have themselves permanently burned into the astral.
>
> AirWisp
>

Being that a magician has the option of doing either stun or physical
damage when attacking another astral form, he can and will take stun
damage. Well... as long as the attacking astral form chooses that
option. Non-sentient astral entities(ie. wards, foci, et al.) will only
do physical damage [quote(they don't know any better)].
Even a primarily astral entity like a spirit can suffer stun damage,
so why can't a magician?

Pilgrim
Message no. 10
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:32:09 -0500
At 18-Aug-97 wrote Pilgrim:



> Even a primarily astral entity like a spirit can suffer stun damage,
>so why can't a magician?

Because spirits and the like are astral entities they have no physical body.
And a projecting magician is not, he leaves behind his body when he goes
astral
and is in this way not a whole person. He is just an image of the magicians
mind
and images can`t be stunned the can only be damaged.


--
Barbie


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:45:02 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 16:30/18 Aug 97...

> > It looks much too harsh, yeah. Technically you can die by projecting wile
> > standing up, since falling to the ground can cause damage.
> Actually thats undefined! Nowhere does it say what happens if you are
> balanced and on your feet when you project, it has often been assumed
> that with your mind away you lose your balance pretty quick but
> nowhere does SR address the problem.

It does say that your body becomes comatose; now I've never seen a
comatose person up close, but I imagine it to be rather like
unconsciousness. Because of that, I tend to assume that when you astrally
project, muscles like those in your ankles, knees, and hips relax, making
you lose your balance quite quickly -- in short, you fall to the ground.

Evil GMs may then want to apply the Falling Damage rules from FoF since
you _are_ falling, even though it's only about a meter (from your center
of mass). That leaves you with a 2D physical wound (per FoF again) to
resist, needing a Body of 8 to totally resist -- unlikely, so you're now
wounded and thus dead...

Which is perfectly logical if you apply a reasonable combination of rules,
but it does feel a lot like someone's been using Spurious Logic skill...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Our foreign policy is not a political issue."
--Harry S. Truman
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 12
From: Pilgrim <jade@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:32:07 +1000
On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:32:09 -0500 Barbie wrote:

> At 18-Aug-97 wrote Pilgrim:
>
>
>
> > Even a primarily astral entity like a spirit can suffer stun damage,
> >so why can't a magician?
>
> Because spirits and the like are astral entities they have no physical body.
> And a projecting magician is not, he leaves behind his body when he goes
> astral
> and is in this way not a whole person. He is just an image of the magicians
> mind
> and images can`t be stunned the can only be damaged.
>
>
Wait a minute...Are you implying that even though my astrally projecting
PC chooses to do stun damage to another astrally projecting NPC, he is
really doing physical damage? Why even give the player the option (p.
147 BBB 1st sentence 3rd paragraph) of what kind of damage to do? Hell,
it would be in my best interest to do stun damage to another astral mage
since no one(ie. any one watching his meat body)
can heal it.
You will have the repurcussions from damage to your astral form
reflected in your physical body and vice versa. This does not mean that
you will only take physical damage when you are attacked on the astral
unless that is exactly what your aggressor intended.

Pilgrim
Message no. 13
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:47:11 -0700
---Mike Bobroff wrote:
>
> Actually, there is no such thing as Stun Damage when a mage is
astrally
> projecting, any and all damage or drain thy suffer is Physical. And
if a
> mage died horrendously enough in the astral, then their limp astral
self
> could be floating around in the astral, as a testament to the
tragedy they
> suffered to have themselves permanently burned into the astral.

Where do you get this idea from???

If this were the case, why would the BBB explicitly say a mage or
sentient astral enitity can choose between inflicting stun or physical
damage?

Is this perhaps a house rule?

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 14
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 16:01:40 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 13:18:41 EDT, daddyjim@**********.COM (Loki)
writes:

>
> Where do you get this idea from???
>
> If this were the case, why would the BBB explicitly say a mage or
> sentient astral enitity can choose between inflicting stun or physical
> damage?
>
> Is this perhaps a house rule?
>
Actually, I don't believe it is. When in the Astral, a Magician takes damage
from Astral Actions (direct, non-spellcasting) as physical damage, which
translates to the physical body. Drain from spells and the like is still
drain.

Spirits (Ally Beings in this case) have only physical damage monitors, IIRC
from the Grimoire. I remember it because of a player with a magician who had
an ally asked me about the paragraph that says "even a light wound" would
disrupt the spirit. He showed me the page, we read the whole page just in
case we took this out of context by accident.

It was a unique rule-discovery moment.
-K
Message no. 15
From: Pilgrim <jade@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 19:13:24 +1000
On at, 23 Aug 1997 16:01:40 -0400 J. Keith Henry wrote:

>
> In a message dated 97-08-22 13:18:41 EDT, daddyjim@**********.COM (Loki)
> writes:
>
> >
> > Where do you get this idea from???
> >
> > If this were the case, why would the BBB explicitly say a mage or
> > sentient astral enitity can choose between inflicting stun or physical
> > damage?
> >
> > Is this perhaps a house rule?
> >
> Actually, I don't believe it is. When in the Astral, a Magician takes damage
> from Astral Actions (direct, non-spellcasting) as physical damage, which
> translates to the physical body. Drain from spells and the like is still
> drain.
>
> Spirits (Ally Beings in this case) have only physical damage monitors, IIRC
> from the Grimoire. I remember it because of a player with a magician who had
> an ally asked me about the paragraph that says "even a light wound" would
> disrupt the spirit. He showed me the page, we read the whole page just in
> case we took this out of context by accident.
>
> It was a unique rule-discovery moment.
> -K
>

On page 69 of the Grimoire, it states that allies are subject to the
normal rules for sorcery, including Drain. If they suffer Stun damage
from normal Drain, they are disrupted. If they Drain level causes
Physical damage, they disappear for good. It would follow that they
have both a Stun and Physical condition monitor. Look at the rules for
disruption. Only Stun damage will disrupt a spirit. That isn't gonna
happen if they can only take Physical damage.
The damage a mage takes on the astral will appear as damage on their
meatbod. Again, depending on the intetion of the attacker the damage
will translate as Stun or Physical. Drain always appears as Physical
damage on your meatbod. While I too am curious as to what will happen
if I'm KO'ed in astral space, I don't understand the difficulty with
taking Stun damage while in astral form. As I stated in an earlier post,
it would be in my best intrest to do Stun damage to an NPC astral mage
as no one doing overwatch could heal him.

Pilgrim
Message no. 16
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR 3] Unconscious Astral Forms
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 20:11:02 -0400
> From: Pilgrim <jade@***.net>
> Date: Saturday, August 23, 1997 5:13 AM

> On page 69 of the Grimoire, it states that allies are subject to the
> normal rules for sorcery, including Drain. If they suffer Stun damage
> from normal Drain, they are disrupted. If they Drain level causes
> Physical damage, they disappear for good. It would follow that they
> have both a Stun and Physical condition monitor. Look at the rules for
> disruption. Only Stun damage will disrupt a spirit. That isn't gonna
> happen if they can only take Physical damage.

Correct.

> The damage a mage takes on the astral will appear as damage on their
> meatbod. Again, depending on the intetion of the attacker the damage
> will translate as Stun or Physical. Drain always appears as Physical
> damage on your meatbod. While I too am curious as to what will happen
> if I'm KO'ed in astral space, I don't understand the difficulty with
> taking Stun damage while in astral form. As I stated in an earlier post,
> it would be in my best intrest to do Stun damage to an NPC astral mage
> as no one doing overwatch could heal him.

Good points. I have compiled from reading the sections on Astral space,
etc. that every magically active being has both a stun and physical
condition monitor and can choose what type of damage to do with an attack
they make. However, things like barriers and foci always do physical
damage.

Hopefully that clears things up a bit. Thanks for your help, Pilgrim. ;)

> Pilgrim

Justin :)

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