Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 19:10:55 EDT

Message no. 1 Last night I picked up Dunkelzahn's Secrets, and have so far read quite a
bit of it in procrastinating over a research paper due next week. In any
case, a few questions for those of you who play Earthdawn and SR and
might know what I'm talking about:

Does the description of the thing which emerged from the limo after the
explosion match with any known Horror? (black blob with worm-like things
inside)

What is the Everliving Flower (remember hearing, but can't remember what
exactly it is, now)

The Rose Crystal

The Shroud of Shadows

The Jewel of Memory

Does anyone know what the Tradeus Manual is or might be?

Has anyone else caught the idea that the Big D is managing to sponsor
research into the creation of magical weapons to arm the mundane masses
with?

Does anyone else figure on something _very_ big coming down in SR in
about 2 years?

While I'm sure that many of the assumptions that I've drawn are rather
obvious, I thought I'd share my recent enlightenment with you, rather
than contribute to the constant OT bickering (something I've done more
than enough of lately)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 02:42:54 +0100

Message no. 2 In article <19970505.190932.26735.0.lobo1@****.com>, L Canthros
<lobo1@****.COM> rambled on endlessly about The (almost) recent death of
(almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn

<snipped earlier questions because of non-interest>
>Does anyone else figure on something _very_ big coming down in SR in
>about 2 years?

Yep. However...

>While I'm sure that many of the assumptions that I've drawn are rather
>obvious, I thought I'd share my recent enlightenment with you, rather
>than contribute to the constant OT bickering (something I've done more
>than enough of lately)

There is a slight problem at the moment, the previous SR line developer
was, ISTR involVed in the Earthdawn development, he was, and still is an
immortal elf fan, hence so much of SR went that way during his
stewardship, something that some, myself included, disagree _very_
strongly with. The announced involvement of Horrors was also something
that many screamed out against. SR magic is unable to cope with an
influx of horrors, some twit didn't think about it. So, yes, there is a
good chance that something extremely nasty is planned in the future, yes
there's a good chance that it is something that will have a dramatic and
world altering effect on SR, it may even bring SR into an Earthdawn
mind. If this happens, if horrors are introduced into shadowrun, if
immortal elves suddenly save the world yet again, if a whole pile of
massive crossovers between SR and Earthdawn occur, I for one will cease
playing the game, my players have already announced their intention of
ignoring any material that follows this line.

Earthdawn and Shadowrun are seperate games, they should have remained
seperate games without the present links that already exist, they do
exist, and are in the main, ignored by myself and my players, any
attempts to bring the two games and the two worlds together anymore than
has already occured, will receive vicious, loud and lengthy opposition
from myself, and possibly others.

If it was a horror that killed Dunklezahn, and I will wait for
"official" material, not a fan based novel to determine that, then as
far as I'm concerned Dunky didn't die, he never ran for president, and
my involvement with the purchase of further Shadowrun material ends. Not
because a horror killed him, but because the involvement or Earthdawn
creatures, system and background is unavoidable, pre-determined and
unacceptable.

<stopping now before rant takes hold>

My opinion is mine, and mine alone. It is not intended as a flame or as
an attitude of right and wrong, it is and always will be, simply *my*
_opinion_ :)

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk

From:	Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Mon, 5 May 1997 23:08:46 -0500

Message no. 3 [Avenger's Earthdawn rant deleted]

Amen. If they link the games, I'll never buy
anything else for Shadowrun, and any game
I play in will have it's timeline diverge from
FASA's at this point, and ne'er the twain
shall meet again...

Gossamer

From:	NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 01:24:37 -0400

Message no. 4 >Amen. If they link the games, I'll never buy
>anything else for Shadowrun, and any game
>I play in will have it's timeline diverge from
>FASA's at this point, and ne'er the twain
>shall meet again...
>
>Gossamer
>

Hear! Hear!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ah at last! The TRANSFORMATION is complete!
For YEARS they mocked me! They took the name EMMANUEL LEWIS in vain!
But tonight RETRIBUTION will be mine!
For I am REBORN as --WEBSTER--, The adorable scamp of DOOM!
Ma'am's and Georges beware Webster walks the earth and he's got a
HANKERIN' for some SPANKERIN'!

Man did I nail this mad doctor routine or WHAT?
"Deadpool #4"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 08:53:29 +0100

Message no. 5 |
|Last night I picked up Dunkelzahn's Secrets, and have so far read quite a
|bit of it in procrastinating over a research paper due next week. In any
|case, a few questions for those of you who play Earthdawn and SR and
|might know what I'm talking about:
|
|Does the description of the thing which emerged from the limo after the
|explosion match with any known Horror? (black blob with worm-like things
|inside)

WormSkull mayhap?

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 12:15:52 +0100

Message no. 6 Spike said on 8:53/ 6 May 97...

> |Does the description of the thing which emerged from the limo after the
> |explosion match with any known Horror? (black blob with worm-like things
> |inside)
>
> WormSkull mayhap?

I don't think they're powerful enough to kill a dragon, let alone a
great one...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 12:15:51 +0100

Message no. 7 L Canthros said on 19:10/ 5 May 97...

> Does the description of the thing which emerged from the limo after the
> explosion match with any known Horror? (black blob with worm-like things
> inside)

Not sure, it might be. Black in astral space is often associated with
Horrors.

> What is the Everliving Flower (remember hearing, but can't remember what
> exactly it is, now)

A rose that would live forever, created for elven queen Failla before
the Scourge, but gone missing as it was being brought to her. After the
Scourge, it was discovered in the ruins of Parlainth, and brought to queen
Alachia in Blood Wood. It's described in the GM book from the Barsaive box
set.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've got to go there and find it, my friend.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 13:08:50 +0100

Message no. 8 |
|Spike said on 8:53/ 6 May 97...
|> WormSkull mayhap?
|
|I don't think they're powerful enough to kill a dragon, let alone a
|great one...

Who said it was working alone?

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Dennis-c Thomas (Dennis-c Thomas)" <DMTHOMAS@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 06:18:55 -0600

Message no. 9 >>> Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> 05/06 6:08 AM >>>
|
|Spike said on 8:53/ 6 May 97...
|> WormSkull mayhap?
|
|I don't think they're powerful enough to kill a dragon, let alone a
|great one...

>Who said it was working alone?

I think it would have to be something just a tad bit more powerful than a
wormskull. Let alone a group of them.

Cowboy

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 13:31:06 +0100

Message no. 10 |I think it would have to be something just a tad bit more powerful than a
|wormskull. Let alone a group of them.

What about a group of them in concert with a bunch of corrupted IE?

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Dennis-c Thomas (Dennis-c Thomas)" <DMTHOMAS@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 06:37:58 -0600

Message no. 11 >>> Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> 05/06 6:31 AM >>>
|I think it would have to be something just a tad bit more powerful than a
|wormskull. Let alone a group of them.

What about a group of them in concert with a bunch of corrupted IE?

Sounds Deadly enough. I applaud your ingenuity

Cowboy

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 13:45:15 +0100

Message no. 12 |
|>>> Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> 05/06 6:31 AM >>>
||I think it would have to be something just a tad bit more powerful than a
||wormskull. Let alone a group of them.
|
|What about a group of them in concert with a bunch of corrupted IE?
|
|Sounds Deadly enough. I applaud your ingenuity

Yup.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Harlequin <harlequin@*********.CA>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 10:06:57 -0400

Message no. 13 > > Does the description of the thing which emerged from the limo after the
> > explosion match with any known Horror? (black blob with worm-like
things
> > inside)
>
> Not sure, it might be. Black in astral space is often associated with
> Horrors.

So... maybe Big D. was an horror ??? *lol*

or maybe that was NOT Dunkie in the limo and at the presidential
party????????
just something that was powerfull enough to mask his aura....

what do you think of that??? :) am i crazy? :)

Harlequin - The master of chaos
harlequin@*********.ca

From:	"Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 09:16:56 -0500

Message no. 14 At 06:18 AM 5/6/97 -0600, Dennis-c Thomas (Dennis-c Thomas) whispered:
>>>> Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> 05/06 6:08 AM >>>
>|
>|Spike said on 8:53/ 6 May 97...
>|> WormSkull mayhap?
>|
>|I don't think they're powerful enough to kill a dragon, let alone a
>|great one...
>
>>Who said it was working alone?
>
>I think it would have to be something just a tad bit more powerful than a
>wormskull. Let alone a group of them.

And just what the hell was going on with those Wendigos that night anyway?

-Thomas Deeny
Visit http://telltale.hart.org - faster, stronger, better than before!

"... what character deserves to be left alone more at the end of the world
than that idiot Ash?"
-Bruce Campbell on the dropped ending for _Army of Darkness_

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 08:19:56 -0600

Message no. 15 Harlequin wrote:
|
| > > Does the description of the thing which emerged from the limo after the
| > > explosion match with any known Horror? (black blob with worm-like
| things
| > > inside)
| >
| > Not sure, it might be. Black in astral space is often associated with
| > Horrors.
|
| So... maybe Big D. was an horror ??? *lol*

I got it! Some force captured Dunk and took his place. Forces on
Dunk's side couldn't free Dunk, but they could take out the force
that replaced him. The force isn't dead, but it's pissed off. Dunk
is in a cage somewhere.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	"Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 10:20:41 -0400

Message no. 16 >
>> > Does the description of the thing which emerged from the limo after the
>> > explosion match with any known Horror? (black blob with worm-like
>things
>> > inside)
>>
>> Not sure, it might be. Black in astral space is often associated with
>> Horrors.
>
>So... maybe Big D. was an horror ??? *lol*
>
>or maybe that was NOT Dunkie in the limo and at the presidential
>party????????
>just something that was powerfull enough to mask his aura....

Now, there's a twisted thought. What if the being inside the limo
wasn't dunky at all, and someone, finding this out, decided to 'nuke'
him. If that's the case, where's the 'real' Dunky? [I'm not tellin...]

"Killing never solved anything, but it keeps people out of your hair
while you decide what to do."
Jhereg, by Steven Brust

From:	"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 13:08:44 -0400

Message no. 17 > I got it! Some force captured Dunk and took his place. Forces on
> Dunk's side couldn't free Dunk, but they could take out the force
> that replaced him. The force isn't dead, but it's pissed off. Dunk
> is in a cage somewhere.
^^^^^

It's not a cage. It's a cocoon.
Verjigorm!

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"We could find a speck of dust and scribble down our life stories ..."

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 11:31:10 -0600

Message no. 18 Steven A. Tinner wrote:
|
| > I got it! Some force captured Dunk and took his place. Forces on
| > Dunk's side couldn't free Dunk, but they could take out the force
| > that replaced him. The force isn't dead, but it's pissed off. Dunk
| > is in a cage somewhere.
| ^^^^^
| It's not a cage. It's a cocoon.
| Verjigorm!

<shudder> I feel sorry for the players in your game (well, not
really, but they have my sympathy, or my pity, or an equitable
emotion that a fellow EGM can feel).

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 11:33:46 -0600

Message no. 19 Fisher, Victor wrote:
|
| Now, there's a twisted thought. What if the being inside the limo
| wasn't dunky at all, and someone, finding this out, decided to 'nuke'
| him. If that's the case, where's the 'real' Dunky? [I'm not tellin...]

Great minds think alike, and then Tinner goes and adds the final twist :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 13:15:00 MST

Message no. 20 |
| Now, there's a twisted thought. What if the being inside the limo
| wasn't dunky at all, and someone, finding this out, decided to 'nuke'
| him. If that's the case, where's the 'real' Dunky? [I'm not tellin...]

I'd like Dunkelzahn to really die. I think it would add to the realism of
the world for somebody as charismatic and powerful as him to die. It would
sort of take away the comic-book feel of immortal invincibles, like the IE.

One of the things I kind of like about shadowrun is the deadliness of the
game. This is a dangerous world where even the most powerful have to watch
their step. No matter how powerful your character gets, he/she is not
guaranteed anything. The idea that such an icon and mainstay of the game
like Dunklezahn (who even had his stats appear in Dragon Magazine) could be
killed without making a Superman/Magneto come back is very appealing to me.

I don't believe for a second he is dead. Which is the problem.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com

From:	Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 13:34:24 -0700

Message no. 21 >I don't believe for a second he is dead. Which is the problem.

It's interesting to read posts like this. You see, I really think
he /IS/ dead. I think Dunkie went out a martyr (although most of
the world is currently unaware of this). Dunkie had strong views
on what needed to be done to save and educate humanity. And there
were (still are) many powerful beings out there who did NOT want
Dunkie to share this knowledge. So, Dunkie put the wheels into
motion with his Draco foundation and other resources. The people
who opposed Dunkie are finding that the damn wyrm is a hell of
a lot harder to stop now that he's dead than he /ever/ was alive.

- Brett

From:	Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 15:59:35 -0500

Message no. 22 At 09:16 AM 5/6/97 -0500, Faux Pas (Thomas)" @****** wrote:
>At 06:18 AM 5/6/97 -0600, Dennis-c Thomas (Dennis-c Thomas) whispered:
>>>>> Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> 05/06 6:08 AM >>>
>>|
>>|Spike said on 8:53/ 6 May 97...
>>|> WormSkull mayhap?
>>|
>>|I don't think they're powerful enough to kill a dragon, let alone a
>>|great one...
>>
>>>Who said it was working alone?
>>
>>I think it would have to be something just a tad bit more powerful than a
>>wormskull. Let alone a group of them.
>
>And just what the hell was going on with those Wendigos that night anyway?
>
It was a big, bad, mojo gathering ritual. That was Dunk that got in the
car. He was watched the _entire_ time he was at The Whitewater Hotel.
Now, admittedly, his car exploding and being sucked into a vortex was not
the first thing I expected. The sniper, sure, the int'l terrorist, ok, but
I huge reverse explosion? No.

Mike Broadwater

"I don't mind if you don't like my manners. I don't like them much myself.
They're pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings."

From:	Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 14:01:00 MST

Message no. 23 >>I don't believe for a second he is dead. Which is the problem.
>
>It's interesting to read posts like this. You see, I really think
>he /IS/ dead. I think Dunkie went out a martyr (although most of
>the world is currently unaware of this). Dunkie had strong views
>on what needed to be done to save and educate humanity. And there
>were (still are) many powerful beings out there who did NOT want
>Dunkie to share this knowledge. So, Dunkie put the wheels into
>motion with his Draco foundation and other resources. The people
>who opposed Dunkie are finding that the damn wyrm is a hell of
>a lot harder to stop now that he's dead than he /ever/ was alive.
>
>- Brett

I hope that's the way it turns out, and that is how I would like to run it
in my campaign. Dunklezahn (who, for some reason, I just can't bring myself
to call Dunky:]) really made a stand in a world that doesn't allow them.
But then I can believe he went the way of Obi-Won Kenobi and left behind a
legacy, since he probably saw his death coming.

I've just seen too many movies, TV shows, books, etc, where the main,
colorful characters won't die. They are protected. TV shows are the worst
because you know the actors or there for the whole season. The two-part
episode where Captain Picard was believed dead? Do you realize the kind of
riot that would ensue if he really was? During the first season, Tasha Yar
was killed (for real, at least for a few seasons) and I was shocked and very
pleased until I found out that she posed in Playboy and was fired, so they
had to kill her character. But for a few episodes, when the away team
landed, I was actually worried about them.

Where's the danger in a world where nobody ever dies? When the script puts
someone like Captain Picard in mortal danger, what's the point? In Joel
Rosenburg's "The Sleeping Dragon" one of the main characters gets killed in
the first few chapters. Throughout the rest of the series, the "good guys"
died on a regular basis, and I found myself really being drawn into the
book, and getting excited when a fight would break out because I felt the
main characters were in very real danger.

If anyone in the game industry is capable of killing off their icon, FASA
is. Could you ever imagine Elminster the Sage dying? He has a few times,
and made a Superman comeback.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 17:12:14 -0500

Message no. 24 Speaking of this stuff, is Stranger Souls in the
stores yet?

Double-Domed Mike

From:	"Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 16:19:50 -0500

Message no. 25 At 03:59 PM 5/6/97 -0500, Michael Broadwater whispered:
>At 09:16 AM 5/6/97 -0500, Faux Pas (Thomas)" @****** wrote:
>>And just what the hell was going on with those Wendigos that night anyway?
>>
>It was a big, bad, mojo gathering ritual.

So, no connection with the explosion under the street that left a big
astral rip? Or perhaps the death of a great dragon who has lived that long
and had that much power resulted in the astral disturbance (as in major
localized background count).

-Thomas Deeny
Visit http://telltale.hart.org - faster, stronger, better than before!

"... what character deserves to be left alone more at the end of the world
than that idiot Ash?"
-Bruce Campbell on the dropped ending for _Army of Darkness_

From:	tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 11:30:52 -1000

Message no. 26 >not in response to anything, but still on topic...
Maybe Dunkelzahn was the victim of random violence ;)

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
>Visit Dot's Deck Technologies! Just north of the Sea-TAC!

From:	Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 16:41:18 -0500

Message no. 27 At 04:19 PM 5/6/97 -0500, Faux Pas (Thomas)" @****** wrote:
>At 03:59 PM 5/6/97 -0500, Michael Broadwater whispered:
>>At 09:16 AM 5/6/97 -0500, Faux Pas (Thomas)" @****** wrote:
>>>And just what the hell was going on with those Wendigos that night anyway?
>>>
>>It was a big, bad, mojo gathering ritual.
>
>So, no connection with the explosion under the street that left a big
>astral rip? Or perhaps the death of a great dragon who has lived that long
>and had that much power resulted in the astral disturbance (as in major
>localized background count).
>
Well, that I don't know. The other half (the stupid half<g>) of my team
thought it would be a good idea to try and take the wendigo's down. I
stuck to the prez. with a couple others. They left. We _thought_ they
disturbed the ritual, but I'm not sure of that either. The last thing the
gm said was
"And as he drives away, his car explodes up into the air, and seems to be
sucked into a vortex and disapears into the fireball..."

And the session was over. Didn't advance, so I never got to find out what
really happened.

From:	Kevin Roberts <krst0023@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 16:50:04 -0500

Message no. 28 snip
snip...
guaranteed anything. The idea that such an icon and mainstay of the game
> like Dunklezahn (who even had his stats appear in Dragon Magazine) could
be
> killed without making a Superman/Magneto come back is very appealing to
me.
>
snip..

That is interesting.
What Issue had this Shadowrun Dragon in it?
snip.....

From:	Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 15:17:00 MST

Message no. 29 >> guaranteed anything. The idea that such an icon and mainstay of
>>the game like Dunklezahn (who even had his stats appear in Dragon
>> Magazine) could be killed without making a Superman/Magneto
>>come back is very appealing to me.
>>
>
>
>That is interesting.
>What Issue had this Shadowrun Dragon in it?
>snip.....

Not sure offhand, I'll check my database when I get home, but the one I have
here says Dragon #199, which would place it a few years back. I think the
article was called "The Dragon Project: Shadowrun". The theme of the
magazine, or article over a few, was dragons in other game systems, and had
a page or two about Dunklezhan, including stats (in shadowrun form).

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 18:34:09 -0500

Message no. 30 <snip: Random violence>

LOL!

Actually, natural causes. Spontaneous human
combustion. It happens sometimes, people
just... explode.

Double-Domed Mike

From:	Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 18:51:40 -0400

Message no. 31 I have just one thing to point out about the whole dunklezahn assassination theory stuff.

Consider what the PC's are hired to do by Dunklezahn in Super Tuesday.

Isn't a box the size of a dictionary a little large for a bug? Remember, the
PC's are on a dry run to try and get "something" past the USSS onto a limo
to be used by a president(ial candidate)

Coincidence?

Paranoia?

Think about it.

***********
Quicksilver

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 18:58:12 EDT

Message no. 32 On Tue, 6 May 1997 09:16:56 -0500 "Faux Pas (Thomas)"
<thomas@*******.COM> writes:
<snipping wormskulls>
>And just what the hell was going on with those Wendigos that night
>anyway?

What wendigos? I heard nothing of this...

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 18:58:12 EDT

Message no. 33 On Tue, 6 May 1997 10:20:41 -0400 "Fisher, Victor"
<Victor-Fisher@******.COM> writes:
<snip>
>>or maybe that was NOT Dunkie in the limo and at the presidential
>>party????????
>>just something that was powerfull enough to mask his aura....
>
> Now, there's a twisted thought. What if the being inside the limo
>wasn't dunky at all, and someone, finding this out, decided to 'nuke'
>him. If that's the case, where's the 'real' Dunky? [I'm not tellin...]

Easy. He's sitting on his butt back home at Lake Louise, laughing his
butt off at all the world trying to figure out exactly what's going on:)

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn)
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 18:58:12 EDT

Message no. 34 On Tue, 6 May 1997 00:43:42 -0400 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes:
>> Does anyone know what the Tradeus Manual is or might be?
>
>This one caught my eye again as well.
>IIRC isn't this the book that details a magical formula for the
destruction
>of ALL vampires?
>Maybe I'm way off on this one, but I seem to remember something like
this.

I don't know, either, but that does sound familiar (now where did _I_
hear it?)

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 18:58:13 EDT

Message no. 35 On Tue, 6 May 1997 13:08:44 -0400 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes:
>> I got it! Some force captured Dunk and took his place. Forces on
>> Dunk's side couldn't free Dunk, but they could take out the force
>> that replaced him. The force isn't dead, but it's pissed off. Dunk
>> is in a cage somewhere.
> ^^^^^
>
>It's not a cage. It's a cocoon.
>Verjigorm!

Sick! You're sick, Tinner, sick, sick, SICK! :)

So why do I wish _I_ thought like that? :)

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 18:58:12 EDT

Message no. 36 On Tue, 6 May 1997 10:06:57 -0400 Harlequin <harlequin@*********.CA>
writes:
>> > Does the description of the thing which emerged from the limo
>after the
>> > explosion match with any known Horror? (black blob with worm-like
things
>> > inside)
>>
>> Not sure, it might be. Black in astral space is often associated with
>> Horrors.
>
>So... maybe Big D. was an horror ??? *lol*

Doubtful, certain other parties (namely Harlequinn) that he apparently
had close contact with would have noticed, I think. I would assume,
however, that it was not the Big D's aura ascending out of the limo.

>or maybe that was NOT Dunkie in the limo and at the presidential
>party????????
>just something that was powerfull enough to mask his aura....

Possible. More likely that it was the Big D using a false replica of
himself to fake his death/evade his destroyers.

>what do you think of that??? :) am i crazy? :)

Reading your .sig, I'd say that you're crazy:)
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
>Harlequin - The master of chaos

--
-Canthros - The Master of his own destiny
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 18:58:12 EDT

Message no. 37 On Tue, 6 May 1997 02:42:54 +0100 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
writes:
>In article <19970505.190932.26735.0.lobo1@****.com>, L Canthros
><lobo1@****.COM> rambled on endlessly about The (almost) recent death
>of
>(almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
>
><snipped earlier questions because of non-interest>
>>Does anyone else figure on something _very_ big coming down in SR in
>>about 2 years?
>
>Yep. However...
>
>>While I'm sure that many of the assumptions that I've drawn are rather
>>obvious, I thought I'd share my recent enlightenment with you, rather
>>than contribute to the constant OT bickering (something I've done more
>>than enough of lately)
>
>There is a slight problem at the moment, the previous SR line developer
>was, ISTR involVed in the Earthdawn development, he was, and still is an
>immortal elf fan, hence so much of SR went that way during his
>stewardship, something that some, myself included, disagree _very_

Including the _current_ SR Line Developer (I've been here since August,
so I didn't miss that:) I'm not necessarily thinking something along the
line of IE-to-the-rescue, but I'm certainly seeing shades of Apocalypse.
So far, we know that a volcano will erupt on Oct 3rd, 2060, some sort of
disease will affect any children born after Oct 31, 2060 (I'm betting on
a new outbreak of VITAS), the next UCAS election is slated for 2060,
Matrix Monocle (whatever it is) is due out by that Jan. I suppose that
could all be worked into a world-shaking Horror-that-ate-Seattle story,
It could also be worked into a world-shaking non-Horror/IE-story. Which
I'd much prefer and see as the most likely possibility.

>strongly with. The announced involvement of Horrors was also something
>that many screamed out against. SR magic is unable to cope with an
>influx of horrors, some twit didn't think about it. So, yes, there is a
>good chance that something extremely nasty is planned in the future, yes
>there's a good chance that it is something that will have a dramatic and
>world altering effect on SR, it may even bring SR into an Earthdawn
>mind. If this happens, if horrors are introduced into shadowrun, if
>immortal elves suddenly save the world yet again, if a whole pile of
>massive crossovers between SR and Earthdawn occur, I for one will cease
>playing the game, my players have already announced their intention of
>ignoring any material that follows this line.

I'd much rather that ED and SR remain linked as they are-in mostly vague
and ambiguous statements and coincidinces. Besides, my bet is that the
Horrors would be better than a hundred years off from SR at present. I'm
not against the idea hanging over the game and having the IE in
background, playing whatever games they want to play with the world in
general. But, if they become common, everyday things, then the idea turns
into the IE saves the world, and nobody wants that. Besides, the IE
couldn't truly deal with the Enemy last time, why in the name of God
should they be able to now? In any case, Apocalypse I can deal with. The
IE as the saviors of the world, I just don't get it.

>Earthdawn and Shadowrun are seperate games, they should have remained
>seperate games without the present links that already exist, they do
>exist, and are in the main, ignored by myself and my players, any
>attempts to bring the two games and the two worlds together anymore than
>has already occured, will receive vicious, loud and lengthy opposition
>from myself, and possibly others.

Agreed. Enough is enough. I don't mind the idea, however, so long as it
remains something that sits in the background. By the making the SR-is-ED
thing the main idea behind the game, you might as well drop the one and
keep the other, because you no longer have two games.

>If it was a horror that killed Dunklezahn, and I will wait for
>"official" material, not a fan based novel to determine that, then as
>far as I'm concerned Dunky didn't die, he never ran for president, and
>my involvement with the purchase of further Shadowrun material ends. Not
>because a horror killed him, but because the involvement or Earthdawn
>creatures, system and background is unavoidable, pre-determined and
>unacceptable.

I'd be more inclined to say that, until it's confirmed one way or the
other, the Big D ain't dead. As for Horror involvement, could be, could
be the IE, could be the Azzies, could be almost anyone with the right
amount of magical ability. But, I still think he faked his death, even
have a theory as to why, but it would involve the introduction of
Horrors, so I think I can safely rule it out.

In any case, I'd say that you're safe as far as Horrors in Sr goes. With
Mike as the Line Developer, I don't see too much happening in that
direction.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 19:22:23 EDT

Message no. 38 On Tue, 6 May 1997 13:15:00 MST Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
writes:
>|
>| Now, there's a twisted thought. What if the being inside the limo
>| wasn't dunky at all, and someone, finding this out, decided to 'nuke'
>| him. If that's the case, where's the 'real' Dunky? [I'm not tellin...]
>
>I'd like Dunkelzahn to really die. I think it would add to the realism
of
>the world for somebody as charismatic and powerful as him to die. It
would
>sort of take away the comic-book feel of immortal invincibles, like the
IE.

A good point, I hadn't thought of it that way. Although, despite the fact
that I think the Big D is still alive, I've been getting a sneaking
suspicion that he ain't coming back. If he is alive, he isn't in good
shape (in fact, I'd say that he's in _serious_ trouble if there's
something powerful enough to do what they did and he's in their
hands-Perhaps Tinner's got it right). Depressing, but true, I think.

>One of the things I kind of like about shadowrun is the deadliness of
the
>game. This is a dangerous world where even the most powerful have to
watch
>their step. No matter how powerful your character gets, he/she is not
>guaranteed anything. The idea that such an icon and mainstay of the
game
>like Dunklezahn (who even had his stats appear in Dragon Magazine) could
be
>killed without making a Superman/Magneto come back is very appealing to
me.

Again, I hadn't considered that. Still, I'll be missing the Big D.
Especially because I didn't really get to find out much about him until
after they killed him:( I'm still catching up on things in SR, things
from the past five years.

>I don't believe for a second he is dead. Which is the problem.

The bequests to Harlequinn, Knight, Leonard Aurelius, and Alamaise sort
of point to his death. The rest don't really seem to say anything one way
or the other.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Tue, 6 May 1997 20:29:52 EDT

Message no. 39 On Tue, 6 May 1997 18:34:09 -0500 Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
writes:
><snip: Random violence>
>
>LOL!
>
>Actually, natural causes. Spontaneous human
>combustion. It happens sometimes, people
>just... explode.
>

Hey, and if humans explode into flames, who can say what such a big and
magical creature as a dragon would do? :)

~Tim

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 02:59:30 +0100

Message no. 40 In article <19970506.185636.19887.8.lobo1@****.com>, L Canthros
<lobo1@****.COM> rambled on endlessly about The (almost) recent death of
(almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
>On Tue, 6 May 1997 02:42:54 +0100 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
>writes:

>>immortal elf fan, hence so much of SR went that way during his
>>stewardship, something that some, myself included, disagree _very_
>
>Including the _current_ SR Line Developer (I've been here since August,
>so I didn't miss that:)

Thankfully, Mike seems to have the same views on IE that I do, he hates
them passionately, so I'm hoping that in some later supplement he'll
have the whole damn lot killed off. <g> Just elave the we're as human
as the rest, normal elves, and steer away from this horrible Tolkien
syndrome that surrounds them at the moment.

>a new outbreak of VITAS), the next UCAS election is slated for 2060,
>Matrix Monocle (whatever it is) is due out by that Jan. I suppose that
>could all be worked into a world-shaking Horror-that-ate-Seattle story,
>It could also be worked into a world-shaking non-Horror/IE-story. Which
>I'd much prefer and see as the most likely possibility.

Agreed. There are more than enough natural, paranormal, paranatural and
despotic problems running around that could have a major restructuring
influence on the SR world, without the unwanted and premature
introduction of a horrors plague, which would only end up turning the
game into a simplified version of Rifts.

>>massive crossovers between SR and Earthdawn occur, I for one will cease
>>playing the game, my players have already announced their intention of
>>ignoring any material that follows this line.
>
>I'd much rather that ED and SR remain linked as they are-in mostly vague
>and ambiguous statements and coincidinces.

Those links already exist, the most obvious is the Bottled Demon module
and a few subtle links elsewhere, bad enough, but everything has an
ancient history. The time line for SR and ED has been slightly screwed,
with a little more careful thought, it could have been worked into our
"known" history a bit better, but hell, it's only a matter of tweeking
numbers. But I still would be much happier knowing that ED is part of a
seperate game universe altogether. I can't have it, because the links
are too well established, but I'm dammed if I'll accept any further
links peacefully. :)

>couldn't truly deal with the Enemy last time, why in the name of God
>should they be able to now? In any case, Apocalypse I can deal with. The
>IE as the saviors of the world, I just don't get it.

Again, agreed. A shattering quake dropping half of California into the
ocean, is osmething that is expected, and was in fact predicted by the
Mayan calendar, including volcanic eruptions and a number of other nasty
"mundane" events. The increased flooding and drought they predicted
we're already seeing, and there's only 15 years to go before their
calendar is proved right or wrong, so we're building up to it.
Shadowrun has been delayed for a world shattering event of these
proportions, not counting VITAS and UGE.

>>attempts to bring the two games and the two worlds together anymore than
>>has already occured, will receive vicious, loud and lengthy opposition
>>from myself, and possibly others.
>
>Agreed. Enough is enough. I don't mind the idea, however, so long as it
>remains something that sits in the background.

And the further in the background Mike stuffs it, the more I'll like him
- not that that's likely to influence him any, but...

>By the making the SR-is-ED
>thing the main idea behind the game, you might as well drop the one and
>keep the other, because you no longer have two games.

Exactly my problem, the next thing you know, some twit in Battletech
will discover dragons, and Mechs will be outclassed by the resurgence of
magic. I don't think so!!!

>>because a horror killed him, but because the involvement or Earthdawn
>>creatures, system and background is unavoidable, pre-determined and
>>unacceptable.
>
>I'd be more inclined to say that, until it's confirmed one way or the
>other, the Big D ain't dead.

Well, yeah, you do have a point, there's no confirmation that he's dead,
and we all know that Dunky had sufficient power and was devious enough
of mind to pull something like this off. But I have a suspicion that
Dunklezahn got a little out of hand. The classic Shadowrun comment is
"Never cut a deal with a dragon," Then the fans of Shadowrun developed
this strange attraction and affinity for the Big D, and voted the thing
into a presidential office, he shouldn't have been able to hold.
Ooopsy. A momentary panic at FASA, and a desperate attempt to tie it
into something big, and they "killed" Dunk. Even giving away his ashes
and an occassional eyeball at one of the cons (ISTR). If he's not dead,
Mike's going to have to do some fast talking to explain it, if Dunk is
dead, Mike's going to have to do some hard thinking to explain it.
Either way, the poor guy is caught between a rock and a not very nice
place.

>As for Horror involvement, could be, could
>be the IE, could be the Azzies, could be almost anyone with the right
>amount of magical ability.

Azzies is to passe, and the IE is to hated. Might just as well say they
are the original Martians, and that the HG Wells story is part of
Earth's history, and get over it that way. The horrors are too Cthulhu
based to work well in the existing Shadowrun material and world concept,
the mindset of modern man would attempt to battle the things with
mundane weapons, entire nations would be obliterated in their own
eagerness to defend themselves, they can't logically work in SR. ED is
geared towards dealing with them in a fantasy setting. I know people
have, and I've done it myself, incorporated Cthulhu or the "Alternative"
Cyberpunk systems into occassional games, adding horro as well as
Cyber/fantasy to the game, but there is a huge limit to how much SR can
withstand before it ceases to be Shadowrun. The only game system that
I've found melds nicely with Shadowrun, is Dark Conspiracy, using an
alien race as the opponents rather than Cthuloids, though with a similar
theme. Vampires, werewolves, zombies, all the familiar things of SR are
incorporated into it, and great if you want a horror based game, but I
was under the impression that SR was Cyberpunk based, with a large
smattering of pure fantasy not horror fantasy.

>But, I still think he faked his death, even
>have a theory as to why, but it would involve the introduction of
>Horrors, so I think I can safely rule it out.

I should think that every single person on this list could come up with
a theory as to why his "death" occured, and no one of them would be
identical, but then, we can speculate about it for years until Mike
finally decides what the case really is. Depending of course, on how
long he wears the mantle of DLOH, after all, he might get fed up with it
and move on to other pastures. :(

>In any case, I'd say that you're safe as far as Horrors in Sr goes. With
>Mike as the Line Developer, I don't see too much happening in that
>direction.

Provided he remains in that position, you are probably right,
unfortunately FASA is a corporate concern like other game companies, and
people are promoted, transferred, laid off, it's impossible to predict
how long Mike will keep the game clean, before some other oik tries to
destroy it again.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 10:26:58 +0100

Message no. 41 |>Actually, natural causes. Spontaneous human
|>combustion. It happens sometimes, people
|>just... explode.
|>
|
|Hey, and if humans explode into flames, who can say what such a big and
|magical creature as a dragon would do? :)

Spontaneous matter-antimatter anihalation?(totally spelled wrong, but tuff)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 03:30:12 -1000

Message no. 42 >spontaneous matter-antimatter annhilation?

Dunkelzahn was powered by dilithium crystals?

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
>Visit Dot's Deck Technologies! Just north of the Sea-TAC!

From:	"Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 09:51:56 -0500

Message no. 43 At 06:51 PM 5/6/97 -0400, Jonathan Hurley whispered:
>I have just one thing to point out about the whole dunklezahn
assassination theory stuff.
>
>Consider what the PC's are hired to do by Dunklezahn in Super Tuesday.
>
>Isn't a box the size of a dictionary a little large for a bug? Remember, the
>PC's are on a dry run to try and get "something" past the USSS onto a limo
>to be used by a president(ial candidate)

Red herring.

The bomb that killed Dunkelzahn was placed in the sewers, not in his limo.
The shaped charge blew up, through the street, and through the limo.

-Thomas Deeny
Visit http://telltale.hart.org - faster, stronger, better than before!

"... what character deserves to be left alone more at the end of the world
than that idiot Ash?"
-Bruce Campbell on the dropped ending for _Army of Darkness_

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 16:45:02 +0100

Message no. 44 |
|>spontaneous matter-antimatter annhilation?
|
|Dunkelzahn was powered by dilithium crystals?

Who needs dilithium crystals? Dunky never had built in warp drive did he?

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 10:16:26 -0600

Message no. 45 Faux Pas wrote:
|
| The bomb that killed Dunkelzahn was placed in the sewers, not in his limo.
| The shaped charge blew up, through the street, and through the limo.

So by the rules the explosion had enough to go through the street,
through the armored limo, through Dunk's reactive defensive spells,
and still have enough left over to kill Dunk, and still leave
Washington standing? Do you know how many successes you need on a
shaped charge to get that kind of effect?

I think the explosion was a red herring and something completely
different killed Dunk.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Jak Koke <jkoke@******.UOREGON.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 09:25:10 -0700

Message no. 46 Double-Domed Mike wrote:

>Speaking of this stuff, is Stranger Souls in the
>stores yet?

Should be in game stores by the end of the month and in book stores three or
four weeks into June. I, myself, haven't seen a complete printed book yet,
which means they haven't come off the press. I usually get a couple copies
overnighted to me from Penguin/Roc as soon as they're printed.

Stranger Souls will answer some questions about the assassination, and bring
up new ones. The focus is really on Ryan Mercury, and to a lesser degree on
Nadja Daviar, and not on Dunkelzahn, though he is still alive at the
beginning of the novel. The limo explosion occurs in Chapter Two.

Other characters include Thomas Roxborough (you should all know who he is),
Carla Brooks, Senor Oscuro, Jane-in-the-box (Dunkelzahn's decker and a new
character), a cyberzombie named Burnout (almost a brand new character,
though he posted in one of the sourcebooks, before becoming a cyberzombie),
a Matrix persona called Alice (new), Lucero (an ex-member of the Blood Mage
Gestalt, new), Kaylinn Axler (street samurai, new).

The "truth" behind the assassination (who did it and why) is not answered
definitively in Stranger Souls, but I will tell you this much: it is
answered over the course of the entire trilogy. I'm very excited to see what
everyone thinks about it.

BTW, if anyone wants a signed copy of Stranger Souls, I will be doing a
signing at my local science fiction / fantasy / horror / mystery bookstore,
Mysterious Galaxy, on June 21. If you're in the San Diego area, come join
me. Emma Bull and Will Shetterly will also be there. If you can't make it,
but still want a signed book, Mysterious Galaxy has a web page and an 800
phone number and will be glad to mail copies out. If you order a book and
let them know who you are and that you're part of this list (before the
signing), I'd be glad to personalize a book for you.

They also have signed copies of Dead Air in stock. No, I do not have any
commercial affiliation with them; they're just good people and I like to
help them out any way I can. The web address is http://www.mystgalaxy.com

Hope this hasn't seemed too much like shameless self-promotion. I actually
do think one or two people on this list might be interested.

Best,

--Jak

Jak Koke La Jolla, CA
----------------------------------------------------------
Stranger Souls chapters are now online at
http://www.fasa.com/NEW%20FICTION/MAIN/NewFiction.html

From:	tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 07:38:00 -1000

Message no. 47 >Dunky never had built in warp drive, did he?
A dragon that can travel at warp speed. <shudder>

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
>Visit Dot's Deck Technologies! Just north of the Sea-TAC!

From:	Lars Richard Olsen <larsols@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 23:57:49 GMT

Message no. 48 On Wed, 7 May 1997 09:51:56 -0500, "Faux Pas (Thomas)"
<thomas@*******.COM> said:

> At 06:51 PM 5/6/97 -0400, Jonathan Hurley whispered:
>> I have just one thing to point out about the whole dunklezahn
> assassination theory stuff.
>>
>> Consider what the PC's are hired to do by Dunklezahn in Super Tuesday.
>>
>> Isn't a box the size of a dictionary a little large for a bug? Remember, the
>> PC's are on a dry run to try and get "something" past the USSS onto a
limo
>> to be used by a president(ial candidate)

> Red herring.

> The bomb that killed Dunkelzahn was placed in the sewers, not in his limo.
> The shaped charge blew up, through the street, and through the limo.

Green herring.

Dunkie is not dead, because he has detect enemies at force three
thousand.

(gotta love this thread)

-lars

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Wed, 7 May 1997 23:28:18 +0100

Message no. 49 In message <199705071616.KAA29235@******>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@****.ORG> writes
>Faux Pas wrote:
>|
>| The bomb that killed Dunkelzahn was placed in the sewers, not in his limo.
>| The shaped charge blew up, through the street, and through the limo.
>
>So by the rules the explosion had enough to go through the street,
>through the armored limo, through Dunk's reactive defensive spells,
>and still have enough left over to kill Dunk, and still leave
>Washington standing? Do you know how many successes you need on a
>shaped charge to get that kind of effect?

More to the point, you'd have identifiable pieces left from that. Unless
someone manhandled a ten-foot-wide copper cone weighing a few hundred
pounds down into the sewers, the charge would be unlined: and in any
case it would be suffering massive jet-growth interference, both making
it a lot less effective.

And you're not telling me a dragon as old and as powerful as Dunkelzahn
doesn't have some way to avoid mere HE. If Harlequin and Ehran can
teleport at will, I'd say if it was just the culvert bomb then D's
elsewhere and not dead.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn
Date:	Thu, 8 May 1997 07:40:46 -0600

Message no. 50 Paul J. Adam wrote:
|
| <dbuehrer@****.ORG> writes
|
| >Faux Pas wrote:
| >|
| >| The bomb that killed Dunkelzahn was placed in the sewers, not in his limo.
| >| The shaped charge blew up, through the street, and through the limo.
| >
| >So by the rules the explosion had enough to go through the street,
| >through the armored limo, through Dunk's reactive defensive spells,
| >and still have enough left over to kill Dunk, and still leave
| >Washington standing? Do you know how many successes you need on a
| >shaped charge to get that kind of effect?
|
| More to the point, you'd have identifiable pieces left from that. Unless
| someone manhandled a ten-foot-wide copper cone weighing a few hundred
| pounds down into the sewers, the charge would be unlined: and in any
| case it would be suffering massive jet-growth interference, both making
| it a lot less effective.
|
| And you're not telling me a dragon as old and as powerful as Dunkelzahn
| doesn't have some way to avoid mere HE. If Harlequin and Ehran can
| teleport at will, I'd say if it was just the culvert bomb then D's
| elsewhere and not dead.

Which means there was probably some very heavy magic support also.

Hm.. maybe the explosive wasn't mechanical. I could have been an
anchored manipulation spell with buckets of shielding layered over
it. Now who can cast that kind of spell?

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

Message no. 51 > From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
> Subject: Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn

> One of the things I kind of like about shadowrun is the deadliness of the
> game. This is a dangerous world where even the most powerful have to watch

You can't be playing with just the published rules. Combat is much
too survivable unless you work up some realistic additions to the
rules.

--Droopy
droopy@**.net

Message no. 52 On Wed, 7 May 1997 23:28:18 +0100 "Paul J. Adam"
<shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> writes:
<snippy, snippy>
>>So by the rules the explosion had enough to go through the street,
>>through the armored limo, through Dunk's reactive defensive spells,
>>and still have enough left over to kill Dunk, and still leave
>>Washington standing? Do you know how many successes you need on a
>>shaped charge to get that kind of effect?

Probably quite a few, but I don't know of too many types of conventional
explosives that don't sound like something...exploding when they go off.
The explosion that toasted the Big D's limo and most of his entourage
MADE NO NOISE. If anyone knows of a normal explosive that does not make
noise, let me know.

>More to the point, you'd have identifiable pieces left from that. Unless
>someone manhandled a ten-foot-wide copper cone weighing a few hundred
>pounds down into the sewers, the charge would be unlined: and in any
>case it would be suffering massive jet-growth interference, both making
>it a lot less effective.

Again, that should still have made noise, a very loud thump from the
explosion being muffled in the sewers if nothing else, and, if it didn't
have a lining, I'd expect a couple of blown-off manhole covers (not
talked about, but you never know)

>And you're not telling me a dragon as old and as powerful as Dunkelzahn
>doesn't have some way to avoid mere HE. If Harlequin and Ehran can
>teleport at will, I'd say if it was just the culvert bomb then D's
>elsewhere and not dead.

The explosion, whatever it's purpose, was magical. I have no doubt that
the Big D should be capable of surviving _almost_ anything thrown against
him. Exactly what ever it was that blew up, was not your typical ka-boom.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Message no. 53 On Wednesday, May 07, 1997 10:51 AM, Faux Pas (Thomas)[SMTP:thomas@*******.COM] wrote:
> At 06:51 PM 5/6/97 -0400, Jonathan Hurley whispered:
> >I have just one thing to point out about the whole dunklezahn
> assassination theory stuff.
> >
> >Consider what the PC's are hired to do by Dunklezahn in Super Tuesday.
> >
> >Isn't a box the size of a dictionary a little large for a bug? Remember, the
> >PC's are on a dry run to try and get "something" past the USSS onto a
limo
> >to be used by a president(ial candidate)
>
> Red herring.
>
> The bomb that killed Dunkelzahn was placed in the sewers, not in his limo.
> The shaped charge blew up, through the street, and through the limo.

You sure? (I don't have dunklezahn's secrets on hand right now)

Anyway, why *is* the big D trying to get a book put under a limo

***********
Quicksilver

Message no. 54 On Thu, 8 May 1997 07:40:46 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
<snipped previous speculation on explosive type>
>
>Which means there was probably some very heavy magic support also.

I'd have to say yes, since I don't know of many explosives that make no
noise at all:)

>Hm.. maybe the explosive wasn't mechanical. I could have been an
>anchored manipulation spell with buckets of shielding layered over
>it. Now who can cast that kind of spell?

Perhaps the explosion was simply designed to blow up the limo and anyone
inside who was 'normal.' In which case, it wouldn't have to have been of
the really high force that would have been necessary to take down a great
dragon. Second, why couldn't it have been cast by a high-level initiate
magician, as opposed to being anchored? Perhaps a ritual sending using a
piece of the tarmac for a material link.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Message no. 55 At 09:06 PM 5/8/97 -0400, Jonathan Hurley whispered:
>On Wednesday, May 07, 1997 10:51 AM, Faux Pas
(Thomas)[SMTP:thomas@*******.COM] wrote:
>> The bomb that killed Dunkelzahn was placed in the sewers, not in his limo.
>> The shaped charge blew up, through the street, and through the limo.
>
>You sure? (I don't have dunklezahn's secrets on hand right now)

Word I heard was the explosion was C-14 (or whatever the most recent
version of the C- line of explosives is in 2057) was placed in a sewer line
under the street and detonated as the presidential limo rolled over it.

Now, as some people pointed out, that explosion didn't make any noise, nor
was there any physical remains of The Big Prez, so that may have been the
publicly released story.

-Thomas Deeny
Visit http://telltale.hart.org - faster, stronger, better than before!

"... what character deserves to be left alone more at the end of the world
than that idiot Ash?"
-Bruce Campbell on the dropped ending for _Army of Darkness_

Message no. 56 > If anyone in the game industry is capable of killing off their icon, FASA
> is. Could you ever imagine Elminster the Sage dying? He has a few times,
> and made a Superman comeback.
>

Hell yes. That's one of the things I really *like* about FASA. I think
(hope) he's either well and truly dead, and that he planned it all, or
that it's a big complicated hoax to draw his enemies into the open.

(Personally, i think he's better off dead, for the plot line.)

I think you could roughly equate Dunkelzahn with Machiavelli, and the
level of intrigue he was capable of.

Here's another nugget to chew upon; I've noticed that FASA draws their
wolrd political situations from past historical events. Whether this is
concious policy or not I never discovered (FASAMike never answered that
query, though he said the question was a good one).

Equate the death of Dunkelzahn with the assasination of JFK; Both were
highly public charismatic leaders, and the conspiracy theories still rage
on about JFK's death... Will the death of Dunkelzahn be any differnet?

Marty

Message no. 57 > Equate the death of Dunkelzahn with the assasination of JFK; Both were
> highly public charismatic leaders, and the conspiracy theories still rage
> on about JFK's death... Will the death of Dunkelzahn be any differnet?

Dunkie and JFK are not dead!!!

They only put some clones in their cars and now, they are on a deserted
island with
Elvis, Marilyn Monroe and Jimi Hendrix...

What i mean is : THEY plannified their own assassinations!

CIA just dont publish the truth about JFK's death because they don't want
to say that they just killed and innocent clone or
some guy that was just looking like JFK!!!!

hehehe

*** chaos! ***

"The chaos is the number of chances we have when tossing a penny in the air
and getting the "Clown" side when it lands back!"

Harlequin - The master of chaos
harlequin@*********.ca

Message no. 58 > From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
> Subject: Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn

> concious policy or not I never discovered (FASAMike never answered that
> query, though he said the question was a good one).

That's Mike...."Good question, however...<goes off somewhere else or
reasons why he can't answer it.>"

--Droopy
droopy@**.net

Message no. 59 > From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
> Subject: Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn

> >>Washington standing? Do you know how many successes you need on a
> >>shaped charge to get that kind of effect?
>
> Probably quite a few, but I don't know of too many types of conventional

Perhaps not as many as you'd think. Set properly, the shape charge's
force would go more or less straight up. Falling debris would be the
only real problem for people outside of the blast.

> explosives that don't sound like something...exploding when they go off.
> The explosion that toasted the Big D's limo and most of his entourage
> MADE NO NOISE. If anyone knows of a normal explosive that does not make
> noise, let me know.

A spell or noise damper could theoreticly do it.

> Again, that should still have made noise, a very loud thump from the
> explosion being muffled in the sewers if nothing else, and, if it didn't
> have a lining, I'd expect a couple of blown-off manhole covers (not
> talked about, but you never know)

Why set it into a sewer? For this kind of job you'd set it directly
into the ground. Not a stretch considering how much else would be
needed to pull this off.

> The explosion, whatever it's purpose, was magical. I have no doubt that
> the Big D should be capable of surviving _almost_ anything thrown against
> him. Exactly what ever it was that blew up, was not your typical ka-boom.

Agreed. I seriously doubt that the explosion itself was what did in
the poor worm, though. IIRC, the explosion seemed to be used to
launch him through the gate.

--Droopy
droopy@**.net

Message no. 60 On Sun, 11 May 1997 09:22:26 +0000 "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
writes:
>Perhaps not as many as you'd think. Set properly, the shape charge's
>force would go more or less straight up. Falling debris would be the
>only real problem for people outside of the blast.

Ahhh...but how many could the _dragon_ counter? :)

>A spell or noise damper could theoreticly do it.

What's a noise damper? And would either have necessarily corrupted all
footage of the actual blast? And would it mask the sound of the limo
soaring through the air and landing (which one of the witnesses claimed
to have heard, IIRC).

>Why set it into a sewer? For this kind of job you'd set it directly
>into the ground. Not a stretch considering how much else would be
>needed to pull this off.

For one, the new asphalt would have been obvious, for another, that was
what everyone else seemed to be discussing.

>> The explosion, whatever it's purpose, was magical. I have no doubt
that
>> the Big D should be capable of surviving _almost_ anything thrown
against
>> him. Exactly what ever it was that blew up, was not your typical
ka-boom.
>
>Agreed. I seriously doubt that the explosion itself was what did in
>the poor worm, though. IIRC, the explosion seemed to be used to
>launch him through the gate.

At the risk of contradicting myself, what if the explosion was some sort
of high-power, E-M blast? This could have been done through magic (light
Elemental Effect) and would have caused no noise other than the sound,
would/could have caused serious destruction on the physical plane, could
have resulted in the extremely high background count. I'm still not sure
exactly what the creature was that lifted out of the wrecked limo was,
however.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Message no. 61 > On Sun, 11 May 1997 09:22:26 +0000 "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
> writes:
> >Perhaps not as many as you'd think. Set properly, the shape charge's
> >force would go more or less straight up. Falling debris would be the
> >only real problem for people outside of the blast.
>
> Ahhh...but how many could the _dragon_ counter? :)
>
>
> >A spell or noise damper could theoreticly do it.
>
> What's a noise damper? And would either have necessarily corrupted all
> footage of the actual blast? And would it mask the sound of the limo
> soaring through the air and landing (which one of the witnesses claimed
> to have heard, IIRC).
>
>
> >Why set it into a sewer? For this kind of job you'd set it directly
> >into the ground. Not a stretch considering how much else would be
> >needed to pull this off.
>
> For one, the new asphalt would have been obvious, for another, that was
> what everyone else seemed to be discussing.
>
> >> The explosion, whatever it's purpose, was magical. I have no doubt
> that
> >> the Big D should be capable of surviving _almost_ anything thrown
> against
> >> him. Exactly what ever it was that blew up, was not your typical
> ka-boom.
> >
> >Agreed. I seriously doubt that the explosion itself was what did in
> >the poor worm, though. IIRC, the explosion seemed to be used to
> >launch him through the gate.
>
> At the risk of contradicting myself, what if the explosion was some sort
> of high-power, E-M blast? This could have been done through magic (light
> Elemental Effect) and would have caused no noise other than the sound,
> would/could have caused serious destruction on the physical plane, could
> have resulted in the extremely high background count. I'm still not sure
> exactly what the creature was that lifted out of the wrecked limo was,
> however.
>

As to the silence of the explosion, iirc the silence spell if
centered around where the explosion was (whatever it was) would keep it
completely silent. I dont have my books here and I'm not sure if this is
exact but whatever events occur within the radius of the spell would not
be heard by those out of the range of the spell. Maybe this is part of
why the explosion wasnt audible.

-Harbinger

Message no. 62 >IIRC the explosion was used to launch him >through the gate.
Are you saying the big "D" isn't dead, but merely misplaced?

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
>Visit Dot's Deck Technologies! Just north of the Sea-TAC!

Message no. 63 On Mon, 12 May 1997, Lawrence Garnier wrote:

>
> As to the silence of the explosion, iirc the silence spell if
> centered around where the explosion was (whatever it was) would keep it
> completely silent. I dont have my books here and I'm not sure if this is
> exact but whatever events occur within the radius of the spell would not
> be heard by those out of the range of the spell. Maybe this is part of
> why the explosion wasnt audible.
>
> -Harbinger
>
OK this might be a slightly silly question, but how does a silence spell
affect an explosion? Does it damp the pressure waves associated with the
explosion? Is it specific to the pressure waves of high enough frequency
to be heard and ignores all else? If it isn't specific then there wouldn't
be any concussive force to the explosion, as that is just a pressure wave
moving throu air.
. .
// Bryce Kaspar \\
// CU Boulder Aerospace \\
// kaspar@***.colorado.edu \\
// _._ \\
.---. .//|\\. .---.
________ / .-. \_________..-~ _.-._ ~-..________ / .-. \_________
\ ~-~ / `-=.___.=-' \ ~-~ /
~~~ ~~~
______________________________________________________________
Tyger! Tyger! burning bright | What the hammer? what the chain?
In the forests of the night, | In what furnace was thy brain?
What immortal hand or eye | What the anvil? what dread grasp
Could frame thy fearful symmetry? | Dare its deadly terrors clasp?
|
In what distant deeps or skies | When the stars threw down their spears
Burnt the fire of thine eyes? | And watered heaven with their tears,
On what wings dare he aspire? | Did he smile his work to see?
What the hand dare seize the fire?| Did he who made the Lamb make thee?

--Blake

Message no. 64 At 01:25 PM 12/05/1997 -0600, Bryce wrote:

[snip]

>OK this might be a slightly silly question, but how does a silence spell
>affect an explosion? Does it damp the pressure waves associated with the
>explosion? Is it specific to the pressure waves of high enough frequency
>to be heard and ignores all else? If it isn't specific then there wouldn't
>be any concussive force to the explosion, as that is just a pressure wave
>moving throu air.

I would say that the spell creates a waves that cancels out the sound waves
so no sound could be heard in the spell area but with the intensity and
speed of the explosion wave the spell could not "react" so fast as to
cancel all the sound waves out thus the consussive force is not reduced but
the sound of the explosion is.

It would depend on the mechanics of this spell [to be determined by players
and GM] for adjusting this "reaction time" so it could damp all the waves
(sound and concussion).

ARRT
The elven mage

Message no. 65 > >OK this might be a slightly silly question, but how does a silence spell
> >affect an explosion? Does it damp the pressure waves associated with the
> >explosion? Is it specific to the pressure waves of high enough frequency
> >to be heard and ignores all else? If it isn't specific then there
wouldn't
> >be any concussive force to the explosion, as that is just a pressure
wave
> >moving throu air.
>
> I would say that the spell creates a waves that cancels out the sound
waves
> so no sound could be heard in the spell area but with the intensity and
> speed of the explosion wave the spell could not "react" so fast as to
> cancel all the sound waves out thus the consussive force is not reduced
but
> the sound of the explosion is.

It's a mana spell, so it doesn't affect anything but people's minds.
Technology is not affected, so you could still hear the noise with a
microphone or the like. This means that there is no physical effect at
all.

Ray.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au

Message no. 66 Feckless Leader said on 13:25/12 May 97...

> OK this might be a slightly silly question, but how does a silence spell
> affect an explosion? Does it damp the pressure waves associated with the
> explosion? Is it specific to the pressure waves of high enough frequency
> to be heard and ignores all else? If it isn't specific then there wouldn't
> be any concussive force to the explosion, as that is just a pressure wave
> moving throu air.

From the NAGRL (I believe), it appears silence spells stop air movements,
because they can be used to avoid sensors that measure the changes in air
pressure generated by someone moving through a room.
The only snag here is that the only Silence spell I could find is in
Awakenings, and it's an illusion spell. However, that works to our
advantage in explaining an explosion without sound: the _is_ sound
alright, but your brain (and recording devices too) refuses to hear it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... just ... for ... FUN ... !
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Message no. 67 Gurth wrote:
|
| Feckless Leader said on 13:25/12 May 97...
|
| > OK this might be a slightly silly question, but how does a silence spell
| > affect an explosion? Does it damp the pressure waves associated with the
| > explosion? Is it specific to the pressure waves of high enough frequency
| > to be heard and ignores all else? If it isn't specific then there wouldn't
| > be any concussive force to the explosion, as that is just a pressure wave
| > moving throu air.
|
| From the NAGRL (I believe), it appears silence spells stop air movements,
| because they can be used to avoid sensors that measure the changes in air
| pressure generated by someone moving through a room.
| The only snag here is that the only Silence spell I could find is in
| Awakenings, and it's an illusion spell. However, that works to our
| advantage in explaining an explosion without sound: the _is_ sound
| alright, but your brain (and recording devices too) refuses to hear it.

<tongue in cheek> Then could a munchkin cast silence on himself and
ignore the effects of stun grenades? Since he can't here them they
won't affect him?

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

Message no. 68 > From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
> Subject: Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn

> >A spell or noise damper could theoreticly do it.
>
> What's a noise damper? And would either have necessarily corrupted all
> footage of the actual blast? And would it mask the sound of the limo
> soaring through the air and landing (which one of the witnesses claimed
> to have heard, IIRC).

A noise damper is a device that creates a noise at a frequency that
masks a specific noise. They are developing these for cars to
replace the muffler.

> >Why set it into a sewer? For this kind of job you'd set it directly
> >into the ground. Not a stretch considering how much else would be
> >needed to pull this off.
>
> For one, the new asphalt would have been obvious, for another, that was
> what everyone else seemed to be discussing.

As I said, a lot went into this incident no matter how you look at
it. Blending the asphalt in is nothing compared to the other
details.

--Droopy

droopy@**.net

Message no. 69 > From: tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
> Subject: Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn

> >IIRC the explosion was used to launch him >through the gate.
> Are you saying the big "D" isn't dead, but merely misplaced?

Only saying that it is possible.

--Droopy
droopy@**.net

Message no. 70 > > What's a noise damper? And would either have necessarily corrupted all
> > footage of the actual blast? And would it mask the sound of the limo
> > soaring through the air and landing (which one of the witnesses claimed
> > to have heard, IIRC).
>
> A noise damper is a device that creates a noise at a frequency that
> masks a specific noise. They are developing these for cars to
> replace the muffler.
>
Only partly. The muffler is there to make the car less noisy to others
who you happen to drive past (noise pollution, etc.). A noise damper is
designer to cover up normal road noise (which includes the exhaust note),
and removing the muffler would have to be reflected by making the damper
correspondingly loud.

Marty

Message no. 71 > From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
> Subject: Re: The (almost) recent death of (almost) Pres. Dunkelzahn

> > A noise damper is a device that creates a noise at a frequency that
> > masks a specific noise. They are developing these for cars to
> > replace the muffler.
> >
> Only partly. The muffler is there to make the car less noisy to others
> who you happen to drive past (noise pollution, etc.). A noise damper is
> designer to cover up normal road noise (which includes the exhaust note),
> and removing the muffler would have to be reflected by making the damper
> correspondingly loud.

But the point is that the two noises cancell each other out
generating no noise.

--Droopy
droopy@**.net

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer