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Message no. 1
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:40:52 -0500
Here's a Chromium Mage (Burnout) for ya...

Attributes (50 pts)
-------------------
Body: 3(6) Reaction: 6(10)
Quickness: 6 Initiative: 6+1D6(10+3D6)
Strength: 2 1 point impact armor
Charisma: 1 Combat Pool: 9
Intelligence: 6 Sorcery Pool: 6
Willpower: 6

Skills (10 pts)
---------------
Sorcery: 6
Magic Theory: 3
Hermetic: 5

Magician: Hermetic Mage (20 pts)
Resources: 400,000 nuyen (20 pts)

Cyberware
---------
Wired Reflexes 2 (3.00 essence)
Dermal Sheath 2 (1.40 essence)

Bioware
-------
Trauma Damper (0.40 body index)

Spells
------
Mana Missile 6 (drain 3M physical)
Stun Bolt 6 (drain 2S physical)
Treat 6 [drain 3(wound level) physical, target 7]
Redirect 6 [drain (1/2 spell force)(spell damage code - 1 DC) physical]
Power Dart 6 (drain 4L physical)

Equipment (135,000)
---------
Secure Jacket (dikoted) 6/4 armor rating
Helmet (dikoted) 2/2 armor rating
Forearm Guards (dikoted) 1/3 armor rating (only in melee)
Large Riot Shield (dikoted) 3/1 armor rating (not in melee)
>>>>[That's an 11/8 armor factor, 9/10 in melee, 8/7 without
toys]<<<<
DocWagon Platinum
As much high lifestyle as can be afforded...

Not only does he cause an enormous amount of damage, he gets to do it often,
can dodge anything shot at him with ease, and (should by some miracle, he be
hit) handle damage if it does get through. Not too shabby, eh? Fully
legal, too. Not a munchkinous bone in his body. Didn't need any edges or
flaws to do this. Didn't need any optional tweaks. He just plain rocks.

As this character gains in karma, he'll increase few things....

1) Sorcery - for increased sorcery pool
2) Spell Forces - for irresistable spells
3) Spells - As many high-force/low-drain spells as possible (my fave is a
force 12+ manadart)
4) Stats - gotta raise Body, so he's nigh-impossible to hurt, and Strength,
so he can eventually wear dikoted heavy military armor...

Physical drain is actually a good thing for this character (he can Treat
it). The spells' drains are generally so low anyway that he should resist
them with ease. Then if your GM allows for some serious rule-bending... **I
WOULD NOT ALLOW THIS!!**... the Trauma Damper helps him resist drain further
through it's ability to lower TNs to resist pain by 2. After all, physical
drain is nothing if not pain (btw, **I WOULD NOT ALLOW THIS!!**). So drains
go from 3 TN to 2 TN (can't go lower) and that Treat suddenly becomes much
(33.4%) easier to cast if needed. If that's allowed, then pump up the Mana
Missile to a Mana Bolt and the Power Dart to a Power Bolt.

Did I mention that I would not allow Trauma Dampers to do that? Well, I
wouldn't...

Granted, this character represents perhaps the pinnacle of powergaming for
his sort. It was intended to be such though, and I have no intentions
whatsoever of playing such a beast (though I would happily play a cybered
mage, this one doesn't thrill me). For those of you lacking in moral fiber,
give the guy a shot and I guarantee that (if you follow the guidelines for
the character) you won't be disappointed in the results. It's also fairly
easy to convert this creature to the priority-based system should that be
your wish.

Enjoy at your own risk...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 2
From: Joshua T Brown <spamquat@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:01:24 -0500
TopCat's Chromed Mage.....

><BIG snip>

>As this character gains in karma, he'll increase few things....
>1) Sorcery - for increased sorcery pool>

Huh?

><snip the rest of it, too, what the hell...>

Why exactly do you want to increase his magic pool? He already has more
than he knows what to do with.... The maximum number of dice that can be
allocated for magical tests is equal to the _Magic Rating_, not the force
of the spell or any other value IIRC. In this case it is 1. Kinda cuts
back on the neccessity for a high sorcery, doesn't it? And with 7 dice at
his command for Casting and Drain, instead of 12, he's not nearly as
beasty, or am I missing something?

==============================================================
The Kumquat -- Josh Brown -- Kumquat@*****.com -- Spamquat@****.com --
Shadowrun Page Still Under Development -- Coming Soon!
"Support Whirled Peas" -- <smirk> -- "Whatever, Man" --
"Woo Hoo!" --
....Don't hate me Because I'm... ahh, screw it, hate me. <smirk>
Message no. 3
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:14:18 -0500
At 07:01 PM 7/25/97 -0500, Joshua wrote:
>Why exactly do you want to increase his magic pool? He already has more
>than he knows what to do with.... The maximum number of dice that can be
>allocated for magical tests is equal to the _Magic Rating_, not the force
>of the spell or any other value IIRC. In this case it is 1. Kinda cuts
>back on the neccessity for a high sorcery, doesn't it? And with 7 dice at
>his command for Casting and Drain, instead of 12, he's not nearly as
>beasty, or am I missing something?

Drain can have as many dice thrown into it as one wishes...(pg. 85 SR2).
Whne this guy is casting force 12 spells, he'll need all the drain dice he
can find. Also, spell defense dice are very important. It adds to the
whole invincibility factor...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 4
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:48:00 GMT
on 25.07.97 topcat@***.NET wrote:

t> Here's a Chromium Mage (Burnout) for ya...

[cutting...]

t> Skills (10 pts)
t> ---------------
t> Sorcery: 6
t> Magic Theory: 3
t> Hermetic: 5

Hmmm...Where I come from, he wouldn't survive ten minutes. No chance to
flee, fight or anything. Kinda like a weapon I take out of my van, use to
blow everything into pieces and put back before it get's damaged. No fun
at all. (No *roleplaying* at all)

t> Mana Missile 6 (drain 3M physical)
t> Stun Bolt 6 (drain 2S physical)
t> Treat 6 [drain 3(wound level) physical, target 7]
t> Redirect 6 [drain (1/2 spell force)(spell damage code - 1 DC) physical]
t> Power Dart 6 (drain 4L physical)

Ouch!

t> Secure Jacket (dikoted) 6/4 armor rating
t> Helmet (dikoted) 2/2 armor rating
t> Forearm Guards (dikoted) 1/3 armor rating (only in melee)
t> Large Riot Shield (dikoted) 3/1 armor rating (not in melee)
t> >>>>[That's an 11/8 armor factor, 9/10 in melee, 8/7 without
toys]<<<<
t> DocWagon Platinum
t> As much high lifestyle as can be afforded...

Do you allow dikoted stuff at CharGen?

t> 4) Stats - gotta raise Body, so he's nigh-impossible to hurt, and Strength,
t> so he can eventually wear dikoted heavy military armor...

STOP!! Dikoted heavy milspec?!? What is this? The Mr. Mega-Munchkin-
Contest? I don't know any GM who would allow this (and I know quite a lot)
This guy's a nice example how to make a killing-maschine, but no char.

t> Granted, this character represents perhaps the pinnacle of powergaming for
t> his sort.

And my GM didn't allow my phyad to have unarmed combat >8.....Man!

t> It was intended to be such though, and I have no intentions
t> whatsoever of playing such a beast (though I would happily play a cybered
t> mage, this one doesn't thrill me).

Do you think, he is playable?

bye

## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 5
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:16:13 EDT
On Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:48:00 GMT Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
writes:
<very big snip>
>STOP!! Dikoted heavy milspec?!? What is this? The Mr. Mega-Munchkin-
>Contest? I don't know any GM who would allow this (and I know quite a
>lot)
>This guy's a nice example how to make a killing-maschine, but no char.

I don't know if this will hit the list before Bob's message does, but I
think you missed the message that spawned this. TopCat's Chrome Mage was
designed to absolutely abuse the rules system, it was intended to test
out how far you could go with the idea of a burned-out mage and see just
how munchkinish a character could be created with that idea in mind. It
wasn't designed to be realistic, or playable (from the standpoint of
personality;) It was designed to stretch the rules as far as possible.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 6
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:13:46 +1000
> out how far you could go with the idea of a burned-out mage and see just
> how munchkinish a character could be created with that idea in mind. It
> wasn't designed to be realistic, or playable (from the standpoint of
> personality;) It was designed to stretch the rules as far as possible.

Well, he certainly succeeded. :) That stretched the rules as much as a
woman giving birth to octuplets.

I hope he has stretch marks now. :)

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:50:51 +0100
Lady Jestyr said on 15:13/29 Jul 97...

> Well, he certainly succeeded. :) That stretched the rules as much as a
> woman giving birth to octuplets.

What, like an ork? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And you can try and you just might...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 8
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:06:08 -0500
At 09:48 PM 7/27/97 GMT, you wrote:
>t> Skills (10 pts)
>t> ---------------
>t> Sorcery: 6
>t> Magic Theory: 3
>t> Hermetic: 5

>Hmmm...Where I come from, he wouldn't survive ten minutes. No chance to
>flee, fight or anything. Kinda like a weapon I take out of my van, use to
>blow everything into pieces and put back before it get's damaged. No fun
>at all. (No *roleplaying* at all)

What do you mean "no chance to flee, fight or anything"? This guy fights
like a monster and can run pretty quick (6 quickness, huge reaction). As
far as "anything" goes... I'm not sure what you mean.

As for roleplaying: anything can be roleplayed, even this monstrosity. As
he is now, he's numbers. I can throw together 14 pages of background though
and then he's a great character.

As far as survival goes: what's going to hurt him? He's all but invincible
by human standards...

>t> Mana Missile 6 (drain 3M physical)
>t> Stun Bolt 6 (drain 2S physical)
>t> Treat 6 [drain 3(wound level) physical, target 7]
>t> Redirect 6 [drain (1/2 spell force)(spell damage code - 1 DC) physical]
>t> Power Dart 6 (drain 4L physical)

>Ouch!

Physical wounds mean nothing. I can cast Treat to heal them. Note that the
drains are all fairly low and the forces are high. Harder for opposition to
resist the spell, easier for me to deal with it.

>t> Secure Jacket (dikoted) 6/4 armor rating
>t> Helmet (dikoted) 2/2 armor rating
>t> Forearm Guards (dikoted) 1/3 armor rating (only in melee)
>t> Large Riot Shield (dikoted) 3/1 armor rating (not in melee)
>t> >>>>[That's an 11/8 armor factor, 9/10 in melee, 8/7 without
toys]<<<<
>t> DocWagon Platinum
>t> As much high lifestyle as can be afforded...

>Do you allow dikoted stuff at CharGen?

This is a powergamed character... but yes, I do allow it often enough. My
personal characters like to eventually dikote everything possible for
durability purposes (and I mean everything, not just melee weapons and
armor... stuff that does nothing for me like firearms and raincoats and
backpacks, etc).

>t> 4) Stats - gotta raise Body, so he's nigh-impossible to hurt, and Strength,
>t> so he can eventually wear dikoted heavy military armor...

>STOP!! Dikoted heavy milspec?!? What is this? The Mr. Mega-Munchkin-
>Contest? I don't know any GM who would allow this (and I know quite a lot)
>This guy's a nice example how to make a killing-maschine, but no char.

Nothing munchkin about it, it's all well within the rules. In fact, there's
not a single optional rule in effect on this character. I'm sure there are
plenty of GMs out there who would allow this character. I'm sure there are
plenty here on this list who have and would. I, though, would not. As for
making him a character, all it takes is some background...

>t> Granted, this character represents perhaps the pinnacle of powergaming for
>t> his sort.

>And my GM didn't allow my phyad to have unarmed combat >8.....Man!

The character must always fit the campaign. As a person who has exceeded
that limit before, I can say that I'd much rather have a GM say to me "I'm
sorry, that'll make you too powerful for the campaign" than "Yeah! He'll
really kick some ass now!". There are (unfortunately many) campaigns out
there where a character like this would fit in just fine. None of mine,
mind you, but they are out there.

>t> It was intended to be such though, and I have no intentions
>t> whatsoever of playing such a beast (though I would happily play a cybered
>t> mage, this one doesn't thrill me).

>Do you think, he is playable?

Certainly. Numbers don't make a character any less or more "playable".
Background, profile, goals... that's what makes a character. A totally
powder-gamed (the opposite of power-gamed) character with no background,
personality, or goals is far worse IMnsHO than a power-gamed monstrosity
with a clearly defined character.

This character is no worse or better playability-wise than a powder-gamed
character who lacks definition.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 9
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:38:52 +0000
> >Do you allow dikoted stuff at CharGen?
>
> This is a powergamed character... but yes, I do allow it often enough. My
> personal characters like to eventually dikote everything possible for
> durability purposes (and I mean everything, not just melee weapons and
> armor... stuff that does nothing for me like firearms and raincoats and
> backpacks, etc).

As long as you remember that Dikote is heat - pressurized diamond.
Whatever it is welded on needs to be able to take a couple of
thousand degrees celsius. (Only for a *very* short duration, though,
so some objects won't be affected.. but firearms, raincoats,
backpacks etc. would *definitely* be affected. (The electronics in
the firearms, if nothing else. The backpack, raincoats etc. would
flash ignite.). As for dikoting armor jackets and such... remember
that dikote is *not* flexible. Dikoting armor jackets etc. which is
basically flexible will possibly stiffen them beyond usefulness,
even if you could dikote them without ruining them.

(See the bottom of the page comments on dikote, also about wearing
off. Diamond shatters real easy, too, btw.).

I would also test if steel weapons (swords, etc) loose their temper.
Few can take much, if any, heat before being ruined as effective
weapons. (Most weapons are probably made of some sort of cerasteel,
though, which would not have that problem).

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 10
From: James A Riegel <riegelja@*****.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:28:49 -0400
>
> >Do you allow dikoted stuff at CharGen?
> >STOP!! Dikoted heavy milspec?!? What is this? The Mr. Mega-Munchkin-
> >Contest? I don't know any GM who would allow this (and I know quite a lot)
> >This guy's a nice example how to make a killing-maschine, but no char.
>
> Nothing munchkin about it, it's all well within the rules. In fact, there's
> not a single optional rule in effect on this character. I'm sure there are
> plenty of GMs out there who would allow this character. I'm sure there are
> plenty here on this list who have and would. I, though, would not. As for
> making him a character, all it takes is some background...
Just my $.02. The essence of munchkin is staying in the rules to the letter
but skewing normally excepted perception away.....cha 1 characters don't have
ettiquette(media)12......Quickness 2 characters don't have Athletics 12 (who
would want Quickness 2 anyway?). The point is does it make sense from the
roleplaying point of view....I tend to allow players to skew things slightly
and then play against on their weaknesses to bring roleplaying into effect
instead of dblhandful rollplaying. And yes....I would allow dikoted heavy mil
spec. And yes.....you would have a lot of trouble from the particular group
you 'borrowed' it from. (Unless you had a _damn_ clean run and used a tailor
spell to changed its appearance)

JR

--
Message no. 11
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:48:17 EDT
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:38:52 +0000 Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO> writes:
>> >Do you allow dikoted stuff at CharGen?

>As long as you remember that Dikote is heat - pressurized diamond.
>Whatever it is welded on needs to be able to take a couple of
>thousand degrees celsius. (Only for a *very* short duration, though,
>so some objects won't be affected.. but firearms, raincoats,
>backpacks etc. would *definitely* be affected. (The electronics in
>the firearms, if nothing else. The backpack, raincoats etc. would
>flash ignite.). As for dikoting armor jackets and such... remember
>that dikote is *not* flexible. Dikoting armor jackets etc. which is
>basically flexible will possibly stiffen them beyond usefulness,
>even if you could dikote them without ruining them.

Also remember that you wouldn't Dikote the ENTIRE cloth jacket... just
the ballistic inserts...
Given that they use melee weapons in the examples it's safe to assume
that things of that nature are able to withstand the temps involved (by
that I mean, things of that grade of metal or what ever). And finally, I
don't think you'd just hand over your entire Ares Predator with all it's
electronic toys attached and they just pop it in the Dikoting microwave
and when it goes DING they hand you back a nice shiny, albeit slightly
useless, weapon... it seems likely that they'd break the weapon down and
only dikote those parts that COULD wistand the heat... hm?

Just use some common sence when deciding what can and can't be dikoted
(I'd say no to a raincoat too..) and the rest is up to you and your
houserules as to how and when it wears.

~Tim
Message no. 12
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:13:33 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-30 08:23:03 EDT, you write:

> Just my $.02. The essence of munchkin is staying in the rules to the
> letter
> but skewing normally excepted perception away.....cha 1 characters don't
> have
> ettiquette(media)12......Quickness 2 characters don't have Athletics 12
(who
> would want Quickness 2 anyway?).

Who'd want Quickness 2? Anyone who starts the game with Dikoted Heavy
MilSpec Armor, that's who. =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 13
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:48:05 -0500
At 11:48 AM 7/30/97 EDT, Tim wrote:
>>As long as you remember that Dikote is heat - pressurized diamond.
>>Whatever it is welded on needs to be able to take a couple of
>>thousand degrees celsius. (Only for a *very* short duration, though,
>>so some objects won't be affected.. but firearms, raincoats,
>>backpacks etc. would *definitely* be affected. (The electronics in
>>the firearms, if nothing else. The backpack, raincoats etc. would
>>flash ignite.). As for dikoting armor jackets and such... remember
>>that dikote is *not* flexible. Dikoting armor jackets etc. which is
>>basically flexible will possibly stiffen them beyond usefulness,
>>even if you could dikote them without ruining them.

>Also remember that you wouldn't Dikote the ENTIRE cloth jacket... just
>the ballistic inserts...
>Given that they use melee weapons in the examples it's safe to assume
>that things of that nature are able to withstand the temps involved (by
>that I mean, things of that grade of metal or what ever). And finally, I
>don't think you'd just hand over your entire Ares Predator with all it's
>electronic toys attached and they just pop it in the Dikoting microwave
>and when it goes DING they hand you back a nice shiny, albeit slightly
>useless, weapon... it seems likely that they'd break the weapon down and
>only dikote those parts that COULD wistand the heat... hm?

Perfectly said, Tim...

The dikoted firearm example (a personal favorite even though it does,
effectively, nothing) included dikoting nearly the entire thing before
assembly. The action becomes supernaturally smooth and the weapon as a
whole will last longer, never suffering the nasty effects of corrosion. As
for the smartgun technology being dikoted, there is basis for combining
dikote with electronics, though the smartgun tech in that particular gun
would have to undergo a major revamping.

>Just use some common sence when deciding what can and can't be dikoted
>(I'd say no to a raincoat too..) and the rest is up to you and your
>houserules as to how and when it wears.

Depends on the fabric involved. Granted, the raincoat was a secure long
coat so I could probably get away with that anyway. However, the backpack
wouldn't have made it. Only reason I'd want that dikoted was for
waterproofing (acid rain is a nasty thing and all too common in SR, spending
a touch extra for dikoting makes for longer lasting). Guess I'll just have
to go with the Teflon coating on the other stuff :)

I do wonder why they stated the measurements for dikoting jackets, suits,
and long coats as being so high if all they ever dikote is the plates in the
given article... hmmm. A Kevlar (standard ballistic) weave would be able to
withstand such temperatures easily enough. It's just often combined with
ceramic to make it even tougher. Some fun thoughts there anyway...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 14
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:22:04 EDT
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:36:11 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 97-07-30 08:45:38 EDT, you write:
>
>> I'm vehemently against any sort of gradual initiation rules, because
>it
>> ENCOURAGES people to initiate more than they would otherwise.
>
> Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. I just have a slight
>problem with the concept of, "Okay, you aren't a novice mage anymore,
>you
>still have a lot of training to go through, and oh, by the way, here's
>metamagic<THUMP>." Initiation is a gradual thing in the real world,
>why
>shouldn't it be in Shadowrun?


Here's my thoughts on the matter:

As soon as you reach Grade 0, you gain the potential ability to use any
form of Metamagic, but not necessarily the knowledge. This is most
important for those of you self-initiating types out there. Figuring out
how all those wonderful new abilities work just might take an astral
quest or some serious thinking, at the least. About the only metamagic I
can see the magician taking advantage of automatically is the sheilding
pool they get (well, they get it after their second initiation). Masking
might automatically mask the newbie initiate's aura as a non-initiated
form of themself. Theoretically, you could have a magician who's
initiated up to Grade 5 or 6, all on his own, and about the only
differences he'd notice are that he can cast higher-force spells without
physically hurting himself, and he's a _lot_ harder to affect with
incoming spells. But that's just my thoughts on the matter:)


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 15
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:23:00 GMT
on 28.07.97 lobo1@****.COM wrote:

l> I don't know if this will hit the list before Bob's message does, but I

I got yours first, anyway :)

l> think you missed the message that spawned this. TopCat's Chrome Mage was
l> designed to absolutely abuse the rules system, it was intended to test
l> out how far you could go with the idea of a burned-out mage and see just
l> how munchkinish a character could be created with that idea in mind. It
l> wasn't designed to be realistic, or playable (from the standpoint of
l> personality;) It was designed to stretch the rules as far as possible.

Well, he said something about non-munchkin...:>
Anyway, even if you *are* a powergamer/munchkin/megalomaniac, this THING
is not going to be fun to you...no skills, no playing...

Tobias

## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 16
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:25:00 GMT
on 29.07.97 topcat@***.NET wrote:
t> At 09:48 PM 7/27/97 GMT, you wrote:
t> >t> Skills (10 pts)
t> >t> ---------------
t> >t> Sorcery: 6
t> >t> Magic Theory: 3
t> >t> Hermetic: 5
t>

t> What do you mean "no chance to flee, fight or anything"? This guy fights
t> like a monster and can run pretty quick (6 quickness, huge reaction). As
t> far as "anything" goes... I'm not sure what you mean.

Well, he can cast a *lot* of spell. BUT, if that nice little magical
whatever stops him...lose, lose (My GM always comes up with this stuff).
Or if that cybertroll attacks him, he will not be able to defend
himselfself (all his armor will not stop the 15M attack with 12 succsesses
my friend Hoss tends to do). About fleeing: What do you do, when you have
to escape in a car? Quickness 6 is nice, but somebody with athletics will
almost always run faster. Ever tried to break a lock in order to get out?
See what I mean?

t> As for roleplaying: anything can be roleplayed, even this monstrosity. As
t> he is now, he's numbers. I can throw together 14 pages of background
t> though and then he's a great character.

I doubt it. He does nothing but casting spells. O.K. you can explain that:
"He lived his life in a lab for magical research." He's chromed. "The
research was about the effect of cyberware on magic." His nice hardware?
"He stole is from the guards, when he escaped?" As you see, it kinda
works, but look very overconstructed. But my point was not, that it's hard
to write a background, but what he is going to be like in a group of PCs.
He can do *NOTHING* except casting spells. He can't find jobs on the
street, get his hands on some hardware, hell, he can't even drive a car!
(Imagine this: Your chrome-mage wearing his heavy milspec sitting in a
subway train...:))

t> As far as survival goes: what's going to hurt him? He's all but invincible
t> by human standards...

Running around in heavy armor tends to attract snipers and (sometimes)
assault-cannons. The cops would eat him alive.

[spells]
t> >Ouch!
t>
t> Physical wounds mean nothing. I can cast Treat to heal them. Note that
t> the drains are all fairly low and the forces are high. Harder for
t> opposition to resist the spell, easier for me to deal with it.

The 'Ouch!' was for his victims.


[gear]
t> >Do you allow dikoted stuff at CharGen?
t>
t> This is a powergamed character... but yes, I do allow it often enough. My
t> personal characters like to eventually dikote everything possible for
t> durability purposes (and I mean everything, not just melee weapons and
t> armor... stuff that does nothing for me like firearms and raincoats and
t> backpacks, etc).

Hmmm...I doubt that anything except milspec-armor and *some* melee weapons
will survive the plasma-stream. Raincoats and backpacks will burn and the
plastic in all modern weapons is going to melt.

t> >STOP!! Dikoted heavy milspec?!? What is this? The Mr. Mega-Munchkin-
t> >Contest? I don't know any GM who would allow this (and I know quite a lot)
t> >This guy's a nice example how to make a killing-maschine, but no char.
t>
t> Nothing munchkin about it, it's all well within the rules.

Just because you are in the rules doesn't mean you are no muchkin. The art
of muchkinism is to stay within the rules while breaking what the
designers intended.

t> In fact,
t> there's not a single optional rule in effect on this character. I'm sure
t> there are plenty of GMs out there who would allow this character. I'm sure
t> there are plenty here on this list who have and would. I, though, would
t> not. As for making him a character, all it takes is some background...

As I said before, this guy can't even wash himself alone. That's the main
reason *I* wouldn't allow him. Powergaming can be fun, but you can't even
powergame with this one. Powergames have every skill....:))


t> The character must always fit the campaign.

100% agreed.

t> As a person who has exceeded
t> that limit before, I can say that I'd much rather have a GM say to me "I'm
t> sorry, that'll make you too powerful for the campaign" than "Yeah! He'll
t> really kick some ass now!". There are (unfortunately many) campaigns out
t> there where a character like this would fit in just fine. None of mine,
t> mind you, but they are out there.

I guess that's my problem. I can't think up a cmpaingn where he would fit
(none that would be fun to me, anyway).

t> >Do you think, he is playable?
t>
t> Certainly. Numbers don't make a character any less or more "playable".
t> Background, profile, goals... that's what makes a character. A totally
t> powder-gamed (the opposite of power-gamed) character with no background,
t> personality, or goals is far worse IMnsHO than a power-gamed monstrosity
t> with a clearly defined character.

Right, but IMO it would piss of the other players, if there was such a
beast in their party. You can always ignore the little idiot, but the guy,
who is killing half of the city is quite another matter.

t> This character is no worse or better playability-wise than a powder-gamed
t> character who lacks definition.

Actually, skill-wise he is, as you call it, powder-gamed.

bye

Tobias

## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 17
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:29:12 -0500
At 06:25 PM 7/30/97 GMT, Tobias Berghoff wrote:

>t> What do you mean "no chance to flee, fight or anything"? This guy
fights
>t> like a monster and can run pretty quick (6 quickness, huge reaction). As
>t> far as "anything" goes... I'm not sure what you mean.
>
>Well, he can cast a *lot* of spell. BUT, if that nice little magical
>whatever stops him...lose, lose (My GM always comes up with this stuff).
>Or if that cybertroll attacks him, he will not be able to defend
>himselfself (all his armor will not stop the 15M attack with 12 succsesses
>my friend Hoss tends to do). About fleeing: What do you do, when you have
>to escape in a car? Quickness 6 is nice, but somebody with athletics will
>almost always run faster. Ever tried to break a lock in order to get out?
>See what I mean?

So, what your saying is, that no matter what, somebody can always be
better? And that opponents will always have the perfect solution to what
you do everytime? Then how do you play? Or are all your characters great
at everything? Or do are they weak in some areas (oh no! now they can get
killed!)

>t> As for roleplaying: anything can be roleplayed, even this monstrosity. As
>t> he is now, he's numbers. I can throw together 14 pages of background
>t> though and then he's a great character.
>
>I doubt it. He does nothing but casting spells. O.K. you can explain that:
>"He lived his life in a lab for magical research." He's chromed. "The
>research was about the effect of cyberware on magic." His nice hardware?
>"He stole is from the guards, when he escaped?" As you see, it kinda
>works, but look very overconstructed.

That is a lame ass background. If any time was put into it, you (well, I
could, I don't know about you personally. If what you just typed was your
best effort...) could come up with something reasonable that would make sense.

>But my point was not, that it's hard
>to write a background, but what he is going to be like in a group of PCs.
>He can do *NOTHING* except casting spells. He can't find jobs on the
>street, get his hands on some hardware, hell, he can't even drive a car!
>(Imagine this: Your chrome-mage wearing his heavy milspec sitting in a
>subway train...:))

What can your cyber troll do? Anything but fight? Can he do something
besides pull a "hulk smash!" bit? You're calling the kettle black.


>t> As far as survival goes: what's going to hurt him? He's all but
invincible
>t> by human standards...
>
>Running around in heavy armor tends to attract snipers and (sometimes)
>assault-cannons. The cops would eat him alive.

Running around cybered to hell does the same thing. It seems you have the
same problems as this character with all of your characters.

>Just because you are in the rules doesn't mean you are no muchkin. The art
>of muchkinism is to stay within the rules while breaking what the
>designers intended.

No, what you just said is the find art of power gaming. Munchkins break
the rules, powergamers bend.

>t> In fact,
>t> there's not a single optional rule in effect on this character. I'm sure
>t> there are plenty of GMs out there who would allow this character. I'm
sure
>t> there are plenty here on this list who have and would. I, though, would
>t> not. As for making him a character, all it takes is some background...
>
>As I said before, this guy can't even wash himself alone. That's the main
>reason *I* wouldn't allow him. Powergaming can be fun, but you can't even
>powergame with this one. Powergames have every skill....:))

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? You seem to think
that a). anything you are good at can and will be countered, b). that
because you're strong in certain points, you can't do _anything_ else. So
you can't negotiate. Can your cyber troll? Is he eloquence its self?
Somehow, I doubt it. Or if he is, is he a "munchkin"?

Lets not forget c). You keep getting a powergamer and a munchkin confused.
Munchkins don't obey the rules. Powergamers use rules to their advantage.




Rasputin-the-going-to-GenCon-for-free-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

Gencon count down: 2 days
Message no. 18
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:03:00 GMT
on 30.07.97 z-i-m@****.COM wrote:

zim> Given that they use melee weapons in the examples it's safe to assume
zim> that things of that nature are able to withstand the temps involved (by
zim> that I mean, things of that grade of metal or what ever). And finally, I
zim> don't think you'd just hand over your entire Ares Predator with all it's
zim> electronic toys attached and they just pop it in the Dikoting microwave
zim> and when it goes DING they hand you back a nice shiny, albeit slightly
zim> useless, weapon... it seems likely that they'd break the weapon down and
zim> only dikote those parts that COULD wistand the heat... hm?

Remember: The components of a firearm have to be of exactly the size and
shape the designers calculates, of the weapons will jam, blow up,
whatever. If you start covering parts of it with dikote, their size and
shape will change, and your nice Predator will no longer be as good as it
was when you got it. You can put as much dikote on melee weapons as you
like, but a mechanical device has to be designed to be dekoted, otherwise
you destroy it.

so long

Tobias

## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 19
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:46:44 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-06 15:30:35 EDT, you write:

> Remember: The components of a firearm have to be of exactly the size and
> shape the designers calculates, of the weapons will jam, blow up,
> whatever. If you start covering parts of it with dikote, their size and
> shape will change, and your nice Predator will no longer be as good as it
> was when you got it. You can put as much dikote on melee weapons as you
> like, but a mechanical device has to be designed to be dekoted, otherwise
> you destroy it.

Close. Certain parts, like the firing pin, aren't going to cause a problem
if it's a micron or two thicker. Any other parts that do require the level of
precision can be milled out to spec before the dikote is put on. I'd also
give any gun with a dikoted barrel - the inside, not the outside - a +1 to
power, simply because of the reduction in friction, enabling the bullet to
rifle like normal but attain a higher muzzle velocity.

Wolfstar
Message no. 20
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:27:00 GMT
on 04.08.97 mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM wrote:

m> So, what your saying is, that no matter what, somebody can always be
m> better?

Yes and no. Usually, a team of runners is far better than average security
guards. But usually, five runners encounter 15 guards (if there is a
fight, that is). So it's quality against quantity.

m> And that opponents will always have the perfect solution to what
m> you do everytime?

Nope. They make mistakes, just like everybody else.

m> Then how do you play? Or are all your characters great
m> at everything? Or do are they weak in some areas (oh no! now they can get
m> killed!)

EVERY char can get killed (it wouldn't be fun, if they were immortal,
would it?). But if a char has a lot of skills at - maybe - 3 or 4, they
can be more flexible. If they have to escape, but there rigger's plane got
shut down, do you run, or do you look for a vehicle? If all your sammies
have nothing but combat skills and your mana-fellas have nothing but magic-
related skills, you're dead, if you don't have a 'spare'-rigger ready.
I've seen a lot of chars that were optimized for combat, magic, decking
etc., but the only reason they stood alive (if they did) was because some
other player didn't create his char that one-dimensional.

m> >I doubt it. He does nothing but casting spells. O.K. you can explain that:
m> >"He lived his life in a lab for magical research." He's chromed.
"The
m> >research was about the effect of cyberware on magic." His nice hardware?
m> >"He stole is from the guards, when he escaped?" As you see, it kinda
m> >works, but look very overconstructed.
m>
m> That is a lame ass background. If any time was put into it, you (well, I
m> could, I don't know about you personally. If what you just typed was your
m> best effort...) could come up with something reasonable that would make
m> sense.

It was a 30-seconds-background, so don't get excited. Maybe you can write
a background that is way cool.

m> >street, get his hands on some hardware, hell, he can't even drive a car!
m> >(Imagine this: Your chrome-mage wearing his heavy milspec sitting in a
m> >subway train...:))
m>
m> What can your cyber troll do? Anything but fight? Can he do something
m> besides pull a "hulk smash!" bit? You're calling the kettle black.

Hoss (he's not my PC) is quite good at electronics, computers, motorbikes,
etiquette(street) and etiquette(military), he can pilot planes and is one
hell of an interogator.

m> >Running around in heavy armor tends to attract snipers and (sometimes)
m> >assault-cannons. The cops would eat him alive.
m>
m> Running around cybered to hell does the same thing. It seems you have the
m> same problems as this character with all of your characters.

A cybered troll doesn't have to look like a tank. A cyberlimb can look
quite normal. BTW, Hoss wears clothes. :)

m> >t> In fact,
m> >t> there's not a single optional rule in effect on this character. I'm
m> >t> sure there are plenty of GMs out there who would allow this character.
m> >t> I'm
m> sure
m> >t> there are plenty here on this list who have and would. I, though,
m> >t> would not. As for making him a character, all it takes is some
m> >t> background...
m> >
m> >As I said before, this guy can't even wash himself alone. That's the main
m> >reason *I* wouldn't allow him. Powergaming can be fun, but you can't even
m> >powergame with this one. Powergames have every skill....:))
m>
m> You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? You seem to think
m> that a). anything you are good at can and will be countered,

It will. Promised.

m> b). that
m> because you're strong in certain points, you can't do _anything_ else.

Your mage has no skills besides his magic-based, right? O.K., You could
start defauling everything you need, but that's not the idea behind
defaulting. Just because your reaction is high, you don't know how to
start a car, or fly a helicopter. (BTW, there is a nice part about this
problem is the SR Companion)


m> So
m> you can't negotiate. Can your cyber troll? Is he eloquence its self?
m> Somehow, I doubt it.

see above.

m> Or if he is, is he a "munchkin"?

No, just a two years old char, who has seen about everything (He once took
down a pane with his Ranger-X...nice one).

m>
m> Lets not forget c). You keep getting a powergamer and a munchkin confused.
m> Munchkins don't obey the rules. Powergamers use rules to their advantage.

Maybe my definitions are a bit different than yours....

bye

P.S.: I'm don't want to argue with you, 'kay? Just discussion, no jihad :)

## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 21
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:36:47 -0500
At 03:23 PM 7/30/97 GMT, Tobias wrote:
>l> think you missed the message that spawned this. TopCat's Chrome Mage was
>l> designed to absolutely abuse the rules system, it was intended to test
>l> out how far you could go with the idea of a burned-out mage and see just
>l> how munchkinish a character could be created with that idea in mind. It
>l> wasn't designed to be realistic, or playable (from the standpoint of
>l> personality;) It was designed to stretch the rules as far as possible.

>Well, he said something about non-munchkin...:>

And it wasn't munchkin, that's the beauty of it. It was merely min/maxxed
to the hilt (aka powergamed).

>Anyway, even if you *are* a powergamer/munchkin/megalomaniac, this THING
>is not going to be fun to you...no skills, no playing...

Skills matter exactly ought for roleplaying and "fun". This guy can default
to anything with some rather impressive stats. What's he need to throw away
karma/build points for if he can default? And not everyone is good at (or
even skilled at) everything, this guy is just more honest about it than most
characters are.

I'm not saying that he isn't powerful, or even that he isn't overpowerful
for many groups, but he can exist and be played/roleplayed as well as any
other character out there. His power doesn't detract from that.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 22
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:36:54 -0500
At 06:25 PM 7/30/97 GMT, Tobias wrote:
>t> What do you mean "no chance to flee, fight or anything"? This guy
fights
>t> like a monster and can run pretty quick (6 quickness, huge reaction). As
>t> far as "anything" goes... I'm not sure what you mean.

>Well, he can cast a *lot* of spell. BUT, if that nice little magical
>whatever stops him...lose, lose (My GM always comes up with this stuff).

But here's the deal, you don't accept jobs that you can't do (simple, but a
lot of people don't understand this), you ditch jobs that get too hairy (no
amount of money is worth it if you're dead), and you do what you're good at
(once again, simple, but a lot of people miss that part). Plus, there
aren't too many "magical whatevers" out there that I know of that this guy
wouldn't have a shot at taking down. He's not a big astral beacon because
he doesn't bother with locks and foci.

>Or if that cybertroll attacks him, he will not be able to defend
>himselfself (all his armor will not stop the 15M attack with 12 succsesses
>my friend Hoss tends to do).

I run from cybertrolls, turn, cast a mana spell... lather, rinse, repeat.
There isn't a troll out there that can outrun a decently cybered human. He
can swing his axe or whatever all he wants, it'll never get near me. Never
bring an axe to a spell/gun fight... heh

> About fleeing: What do you do, when you have
>to escape in a car? Quickness 6 is nice, but somebody with athletics will
>almost always run faster. Ever tried to break a lock in order to get out?
>See what I mean?

Default athletics to dex and I get 3 actions per round on average. Assuming
one dex/athletics success this character can run 21 meters his first action
and walk at 7 meters for his other actions. More than enough to stay away
from trolls. As for cars, they drive themselves just fine. Lock-breaking
isn't so difficult, that's what the other runners are for. Think "team", no
runner should try to do everything himself. Specialize and bring in others
to support the areas you can't.

>t> As for roleplaying: anything can be roleplayed, even this monstrosity. As
>t> he is now, he's numbers. I can throw together 14 pages of background
>t> though and then he's a great character.

>I doubt it. He does nothing but casting spells. O.K. you can explain that:
>"He lived his life in a lab for magical research." He's chromed. "The
>research was about the effect of cyberware on magic." His nice hardware?
>"He stole is from the guards, when he escaped?" As you see, it kinda
>works, but look very overconstructed. But my point was not, that it's hard
>to write a background, but what he is going to be like in a group of PCs.

He'll be like all the other PCs most likely. Only an asshole of a gamer
would play this thing in a group of low-power characters. S'why I set the
power-level of a campaign from the start and make the characters fit the
campaign. Keeps me from having to deal with situations like that.

>He can do *NOTHING* except casting spells. He can't find jobs on the
>street, get his hands on some hardware, hell, he can't even drive a car!
>(Imagine this: Your chrome-mage wearing his heavy milspec sitting in a
>subway train...:))

Sure he can find jobs. He can do tons of stuff, he just isn't skilled at
much. Defaulting is a beautiful thing if worked properly. He's also a
mage. Which is rare. Which means he probably won't have to worry if he can
cook chinese food or flip burgers for the rest of his life. Money won't be
a problem if he even pretends like he knows what he is. Cars drive
themselves in 205X, that's no problem. My chrome mage doesn't have heavy
milspec armor yet, he needs more strength before he can wear it (and no, he
wouldn't wear it in public, that'd just be stupid). All his stuff is
street-legal or amazingly well-hidden (e.g. cyberware). Heh, the subway
would work just fine for that character.

>t> As far as survival goes: what's going to hurt him? He's all but invincible
>t> by human standards...

>Running around in heavy armor tends to attract snipers and (sometimes)
>assault-cannons. The cops would eat him alive.

No heavy armor, no guns, no illegal equipment (cyberware excluded). His
only obvious toy is the shield and he doesn't really need it. The cops
would never know a thing. He's stealthy that way, he looks just like an
average guy you'd see walking down the street.

>Hmmm...I doubt that anything except milspec-armor and *some* melee weapons
>will survive the plasma-stream. Raincoats and backpacks will burn and the
>plastic in all modern weapons is going to melt.

Dikoting is not blasting an object with huge amounts of plasma. You
microwave small amounts of methane and hydrogen to a plasma state. This
small amount of plasma is then washed over the object, which instantly cools
the plasma and creates the dikote film. That's right, the object's
temperature is enough to cool the small amount of plasma instantly. If it
wasn't, then dikoting would be impossible as the plasma would always melt
everything. These gases love to change temp and will do so rapidly, thus is
dikoting possible.

In the end, it's nothing more than a superior form of Teflon coating...

>t> >STOP!! Dikoted heavy milspec?!? What is this? The Mr. Mega-Munchkin-
>t> >Contest? I don't know any GM who would allow this (and I know quite a lot)
>t> >This guy's a nice example how to make a killing-maschine, but no char.

>t> Nothing munchkin about it, it's all well within the rules.

>Just because you are in the rules doesn't mean you are no muchkin. The art
>of muchkinism is to stay within the rules while breaking what the
>designers intended.

Actually, because I am within the rules it means exactly that I am not a
munchkin. Munchkinism is no art, min/maxxing (powergaming) is. Munchkins
say "I take Harlequin as one of my contacts and he gave me a Force 100
Power/Weapon focus which can't be grounded through and is permanently masked
by him". Munchkins also say "I have Wired Reflexes 10 on my character".
They create things that don't exist for the express purpose of empowering
their characters beyond anything the rules ever intended possible.

>t> In fact,
>t> there's not a single optional rule in effect on this character. I'm sure
>t> there are plenty of GMs out there who would allow this character. I'm sure
>t> there are plenty here on this list who have and would. I, though, would
>t> not. As for making him a character, all it takes is some background...

>As I said before, this guy can't even wash himself alone. That's the main
>reason *I* wouldn't allow him. Powergaming can be fun, but you can't even
>powergame with this one. Powergames have every skill....:))

Sure he can. There is no "wash self" skill. Most of us can do things
regardless of whether or not we are particularly skilled in them. This
would be defaulting to another skill or stat and it is very common.
Powergamers don't have every skill, they have the skills they NEED and huge
stats so they can default to anything else (or skillwires, a personal
favorite). Trust me, I'm a numbers/systems guru. I know how to powergame...

>t> As a person who has exceeded
>t> that limit before, I can say that I'd much rather have a GM say to me "I'm
>t> sorry, that'll make you too powerful for the campaign" than "Yeah!
He'll
>t> really kick some ass now!". There are (unfortunately many) campaigns out
>t> there where a character like this would fit in just fine. None of mine,
>t> mind you, but they are out there.

>I guess that's my problem. I can't think up a cmpaingn where he would fit
>(none that would be fun to me, anyway).

I can think of many where he could play, but I would not want to play in
them. I said that much in my original post.

>t> >Do you think, he is playable?

>t> Certainly. Numbers don't make a character any less or more
"playable".
>t> Background, profile, goals... that's what makes a character. A totally
>t> powder-gamed (the opposite of power-gamed) character with no background,
>t> personality, or goals is far worse IMnsHO than a power-gamed monstrosity
>t> with a clearly defined character.

>Right, but IMO it would piss of the other players, if there was such a
>beast in their party. You can always ignore the little idiot, but the guy,
>who is killing half of the city is quite another matter.

See above... the characters must fit the campaign. Only an asshole would
play this guy in a low-powered game and only a truly weak GM would allow it
to happen if just such a person tried to.

>t> This character is no worse or better playability-wise than a powder-gamed
>t> character who lacks definition.

>Actually, skill-wise he is, as you call it, powder-gamed.

As I said, skills don't mean a whole lot in this game as they can always be
overcome in one way or another. Stats are the way to go. Proper creation &
distribution of die pools will always make up for a lack anywhere else.
This character has a combat pool of 9 that he uses for nothing other than
dodging. He has a sorcery pool which only resists drain or provides spell
defense (most likely the latter, drain is infinitessimal for this
character). His pools also refresh as fast as the average/above average
samurai's do. He's got enough defense to withstand pretty much anything
sensible and enough offense to put almost anything down. The dice are there
for him to do pretty much anything. Also remember that this character is
straight out of chargen. Give him some experience & nuyen and he only gets
more powerful.

It's a truly destructive creation... I'm proud of myself for making him. ;)
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 23
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:19:00 GMT
on 06.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:

W> Close. Certain parts, like the firing pin, aren't going to cause a problem
W> if it's a micron or two thicker. Any other parts that do require the level
W> of precision can be milled out to spec before the dikote is put on.

I don't know, how thick your average Dikote-layer is (never seen one, not
even a non-average one :)), but I think, it'll be enough to have you work
on nearly every part of the weapon.

W> I'd
W> also give any gun with a dikoted barrel - the inside, not the outside - a
W> +1 to power, simply because of the reduction in friction, enabling the
W> bullet to rifle like normal but attain a higher muzzle velocity.

I don't quite understand this. If the barrel is dikoted, it's harder and
more heat-resistant. What does this have to do with the powerlevel? O.K.,
you could make your own ammo with more cordit without having to risk
barrel-damage, but standart-ammo is still standart-ammo.....ain't it?!

bye

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 24
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:29:59 EDT
On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:19:00 GMT Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
writes:

>I don't know, how thick your average Dikote-layer is (never seen one,
>not
>even a non-average one :)), but I think, it'll be enough to have you
>work
>on nearly every part of the weapon.


A layer of Dikote glaze is probably only microns (_very_ small fractions
of a meter, I believe) thick, probably thinner than paper.


>I don't quite understand this. If the barrel is dikoted, it's harder
>and
>more heat-resistant. What does this have to do with the powerlevel?
>O.K.,
>you could make your own ammo with more cordit without having to risk
>barrel-damage, but standart-ammo is still standart-ammo.....ain't it?!


The advantage is that the glaze would provide a smooth, hard surface
coating on the inside of the barrel and allow the bullet to travel faster
(because there would be less friction) along the same distance with the
same charge behind it. Other than that, you just get better durability.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 25
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:06:03 +0000
> >Or if that cybertroll attacks him, he will not be able to defend
> >himselfself (all his armor will not stop the 15M attack with 12 succsesses
> >my friend Hoss tends to do).

I've seen comments elsewhere about 'Hoss', also in this thread, and
how he has a lot of different skills, which is important and so on.

I can agree with that, but I think it is pretty reasonable that a
character played for two years ought to be able to be more diverse,
more dangerous, than a starting character, hmm? Comparing them isn't
all that good an idea. What was Hoss's stats when he was created?



--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 26
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:58:36 +0100
In message <19970811.202855.16863.0.lobo1@****.com>, John E Pederson
<lobo1@****.COM> writes
>On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:19:00 GMT Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
>writes:
>>I don't quite understand this. If the barrel is dikoted, it's harder
>>and
>>more heat-resistant. What does this have to do with the powerlevel?
>>O.K.,
>>you could make your own ammo with more cordit without having to risk
>>barrel-damage, but standart-ammo is still standart-ammo.....ain't it?!
>
>The advantage is that the glaze would provide a smooth, hard surface
>coating on the inside of the barrel and allow the bullet to travel faster
>(because there would be less friction) along the same distance with the
>same charge behind it. Other than that, you just get better durability.

You could do the same more cheaply and more durably with a stellite
barrel liner, or a more modern equivalent (a good plasma-sprayed ceramic
perhaps?)

The problem with DiKote is that it is, fundamentally, just a layer of
crystalline carbon, and would burn away within a few dozen shots if used
in a gun barrel.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 27
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage)
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:11:35 EDT
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:08:13 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>> A layer of Dikote glaze is probably only microns (_very_ small
fractions
>> of a meter, I believe) thick, probably thinner than paper.
>

<<A "micron" is a micrometer, or one-millionth of a meter, or 1/1000th of
a millimeter, and is abbreviated with the Greek letter mu (extended
ASCII, so I won't use it here). Paper is _much_ thicker than a micrometer
-- when pressed together, my SRII rulebook (minus the covers) is about 16
mm thick for 300 pages, translating to 0.053 mm per page: 53 micrometers
per page.>>


<g> All I could remember from Chemistry three years ago was that it was
an itty-bitty fraction and that it was the only one with a special letter
for it:) So, I guess I was right, huh? It _was_ thinner than paper;)



--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 28
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 03:26:16 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-12 03:01:23 EDT, you write:

> W> Close. Certain parts, like the firing pin, aren't going to cause a
problem
> W> if it's a micron or two thicker. Any other parts that do require the
level
> W> of precision can be milled out to spec before the dikote is put on.
>
> I don't know, how thick your average Dikote-layer is (never seen one, not
> even a non-average one :)), but I think, it'll be enough to have you work
> on nearly every part of the weapon.

Not really. Shadowtech doesn't say, but it does hint that the layer is a
molecular film. If you've ever field-stripped a gun, you know that there's
enough play in all of the components so that even if you had a layer 3
molecules deep, it should have no effect, the possible exception being the
barrel - on the inside.

> W> I'd
> W> also give any gun with a dikoted barrel - the inside, not the outside -
a
> W> +1 to power, simply because of the reduction in friction, enabling the
> W> bullet to rifle like normal but attain a higher muzzle velocity.
>
> I don't quite understand this. If the barrel is dikoted, it's harder and
> more heat-resistant. What does this have to do with the powerlevel? O.K.,
> you could make your own ammo with more cordit without having to risk
> barrel-damage, but standart-ammo is still standart-ammo.....ain't it?!

Dikote isn't more heat resistant, it just evaporates heat more quickly. It
is harder, but it's also a friction-reducer, which enables a similar powder
charge to attain a higher muzzle velocity for the bullet - less drag to slow
the round down in the barrel.

Wolfstar
Message no. 29
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:32:00 GMT
on 11.08.97 lobo1@****.COM wrote:

l> >I don't know, how thick your average Dikote-layer is (never seen one,
l> >not
l> >even a non-average one :)), but I think, it'll be enough to have you
l> >work
l> >on nearly every part of the weapon.
l>
l>
l> A layer of Dikote glaze is probably only microns (_very_ small fractions
l> of a meter, I believe) thick, probably thinner than paper.

O.K., if it's thin enough, you might not have any problems (sounds like:
"Up to the GM" to me)

l> >O.K.,
l> >you could make your own ammo with more cordit without having to risk
l> >barrel-damage, but standart-ammo is still standart-ammo.....ain't it?!
l>
l>
l> The advantage is that the glaze would provide a smooth, hard surface
l> coating on the inside of the barrel and allow the bullet to travel faster
l> (because there would be less friction) along the same distance with the
l> same charge behind it.

O.K., that's right, but would it give you +1 power? Hmmm....Does anybody
have the friction numbers for a barrel with and without dikote?

bye

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 30
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:02:00 GMT
on 11.08.97 topcat@***.NET wrote:

t> >Well, he said something about non-munchkin...:>
t>
t> And it wasn't munchkin, that's the beauty of it. It was merely min/maxxed
t> to the hilt (aka powergamed).

To me munchkin=powergamer most of the time (except, that there are
powergamers, who are really good roleplayers, but that's a different
matter...).

t>
t> >Anyway, even if you *are* a powergamer/munchkin/megalomaniac, this THING
t> >is not going to be fun to you...no skills, no playing...
t>
t> Skills matter exactly ought for roleplaying and "fun". This guy can
t> default to anything with some rather impressive stats.

6 lines up, revised version:...this THING is not going to be fun to you.
At least in no group I know, as defaulting from attributes is very seldom
allowed.

t> What's he need to
t> throw away karma/build points for if he can default? And not everyone is
t> good at (or even skilled at) everything, this guy is just more honest about
t> it than most characters are.

That's a nice way to put it. :)

t> I'm not saying that he isn't powerful, or even that he isn't overpowerful
t> for many groups, but he can exist and be played/roleplayed as well as any
t> other character out there. His power doesn't detract from that.

As you said above: Skills are for roleplaying. If you don't roleplay, you
will be kicked out of all the groups I know (well, not all. There is one,
where *nobody* can roleplay, so....)

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 31
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:37:00 GMT
on 11.08.97 topcat@***.NET wrote:

t> >Well, he can cast a *lot* of spell. BUT, if that nice little magical
t> >whatever stops him...lose, lose (My GM always comes up with this stuff).
t>
t> But here's the deal, you don't accept jobs that you can't do (simple, but a
t> lot of people don't understand this), you ditch jobs that get too hairy (no
t> amount of money is worth it if you're dead), and you do what you're good at
t> (once again, simple, but a lot of people miss that part).

The nice part is that you don't know that it's going to get ugly. Our
group figured out pretty soon that there are jobs they can't do, so our GM
keeps us busy with neat incidents that noone could have predicted (Like
the disturbance job, where we ended being hunted by two Ares Dragons full
of nice and friendly corp-guards....)

t> Plus, there
t> aren't too many "magical whatevers" out there that I know of that this guy
t> wouldn't have a shot at taking down.

Creativity, that's all you need for millions of 'whatevers' !

t> He's not a big astral beacon because
t> he doesn't bother with locks and foci.

Yeah, that's a good side of him.

t> I run from cybertrolls, turn, cast a mana spell... lather, rinse, repeat.
t> There isn't a troll out there that can outrun a decently cybered human. He
t> can swing his axe or whatever all he wants, it'll never get near me. Never
t> bring an axe to a spell/gun fight... heh

No axe, Ranger-X :) Or simply a dikoted cyberfist. Some background on
Hoss: After about 1 3/4 years of playing, he was captured by the AG Chemie
(IIRC the biggest chem-corp in the world) and with some nice cybermancy
they maxed him out to be their best killer. Fortunatly, his friends
rescued him (a nice story: Including an F-22, some tanks, a vampire, a set
of mark 82 ironbombs and a dwarf called Zyklon-B). To make it short: Hoss
got wired 3(delta). He's gonna get everybody

[I think we should stop that Chrome Mage/Hoss fight.]

t> > About fleeing: What do you do, when you have
t> >to escape in a car? Quickness 6 is nice, but somebody with athletics will
t> >almost always run faster. Ever tried to break a lock in order to get out?
t> >See what I mean?
t>

t> As for cars, they drive themselves just fine.

Yeah. With cruise-speed and no evasive-manouvers.....no good.

t> Lock-breaking isn't so difficult, that's what the other runners are for.

I like that. "Hey, I've still got my slaves, right?"

t> Think "team", no runner should try to do everything himself. Specialize
t> and bring in others to support the areas you can't.

Yup, but you've got to be flexible, as 'no plan survives enemy contact',
remember?

t> He'll be like all the other PCs most likely. Only an asshole of a gamer
t> would play this thing in a group of low-power characters. S'why I set the
t> power-level of a campaign from the start and make the characters fit the
t> campaign. Keeps me from having to deal with situations like that.

O.K. that's fair. Just hope (the player, not you) everything works as
planed. Otherwise....I've still got this nice coffin....

t> >He can do *NOTHING* except casting spells. He can't find jobs on the
t> >street, get his hands on some hardware, hell, he can't even drive a car!
t> >(Imagine this: Your chrome-mage wearing his heavy milspec sitting in a
t> >subway train...:))
t>
t> Sure he can find jobs. He can do tons of stuff, he just isn't skilled at
t> much. Defaulting is a beautiful thing if worked properly. He's also a
t> mage. Which is rare.

Granted. Hadn't thought of that.

t> Which means he probably won't have to worry if he
t> can cook chinese food or flip burgers for the rest of his life. Money
t> won't be a problem if he even pretends like he knows what he is. Cars
t> drive themselves in 205X, that's no problem.

If his autopilot is 4+....

t> Heh, the subway would work just fine for that character.

"Errrmm Mr.Driver-Man? Do you stop at the 'raku-arco? Even while there's a
fight?"

t> >Running around in heavy armor tends to attract snipers and (sometimes)
t> >assault-cannons. The cops would eat him alive.
t>
t> No heavy armor, no guns, no illegal equipment (cyberware excluded). His
t> only obvious toy is the shield and he doesn't really need it. The cops
t> would never know a thing. He's stealthy that way, he looks just like an
t> average guy you'd see walking down the street.

Well, body-armor never looks 'normal', but that's something rather weird
in SR, anyway...

t>
t> >Hmmm...I doubt that anything except milspec-armor and *some* melee weapons
t> >will survive the plasma-stream. Raincoats and backpacks will burn and the
t> >plastic in all modern weapons is going to melt.
t>
t> Dikoting is not blasting an object with huge amounts of plasma. You
t> microwave small amounts of methane and hydrogen to a plasma state. This
t> small amount of plasma is then washed over the object, which instantly
t> cools the plasma and creates the dikote film.

If it was just that amount, there woundn't be any change in the armor-
value. It has to be more, just to be effective.

t> In the end, it's nothing more than a superior form of Teflon coating...

Ermm...sorry, but teflon and dikote have nothing in common, except for
people putting it on bullets for some reason. See, my own coat (in RL) has
a teflon coating, but that's because it pervents water from penetrating
the cloth, that's all. It won't stop any bullets (No, I'm not gonna test
that). Dikote, on the other hand is a non-flexible cristal-form.

t> >t> In fact,
t> >t> there's not a single optional rule in effect on this character. I'm
t> >t> sure there are plenty of GMs out there who would allow this character.
t> >t> I'm sure there are plenty here on this list who have and would. I,
t> >t> though, would not. As for making him a character, all it takes is some
t> >t> background...
t>
t> >As I said before, this guy can't even wash himself alone. That's the main
t> >reason *I* wouldn't allow him. Powergaming can be fun, but you can't even
t> >powergame with this one. Powergames have every skill....:))
t>
t> Sure he can. There is no "wash self" skill.

C'mon, you know what I mean.

t> Most of us can do things
t> regardless of whether or not we are particularly skilled in them. This
t> would be defaulting to another skill or stat and it is very common.
t> Powergamers don't have every skill, they have the skills they NEED and huge
t> stats so they can default to anything else (or skillwires, a personal
t> favorite).

I hate skillwires. Makes it easy for a GM to explain high NPC skills...

t> Trust me, I'm a numbers/systems guru. I know how to powergame...
No doubt about it.

t> >Right, but IMO it would piss of the other players, if there was such a
t> >beast in their party. You can always ignore the little idiot, but the guy,
t> >who is killing half of the city is quite another matter.
t>
t> See above... the characters must fit the campaign. Only an asshole would
t> play this guy in a low-powered game and only a truly weak GM would allow it
t> to happen if just such a person tried to.

Unfortunatly there are lots of both. (My first RPG-group was full of them)

t> It's a truly destructive creation... I'm proud of myself for making him. ;)

I can understand that. I was damn proud after blowing a 30cm hole into a
street when I was 12... ;)))

bye

BTW: You're one *EVIL* char generator

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 32
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:01:00 GMT
on 12.08.97 runefo@***.UIO.NO wrote:

r> I've seen comments elsewhere about 'Hoss', also in this thread, and
r> how he has a lot of different skills, which is important and so on.
r>
r> I can agree with that, but I think it is pretty reasonable that a
r> character played for two years ought to be able to be more diverse,
r> more dangerous, than a starting character, hmm? Comparing them isn't
r> all that good an idea. What was Hoss's stats when he was created?

I don't have the stats, but IIRC he started as a gang member. He wasn't
that hot back then, but that's not the point. I was just giving an exapmle
that the chrome mage isn't immortal if you know the right weapon. (O.K.,
Hoss is a pretty good weapon against nearly everything. I could tell you
storys.....geeezz...like back when he took down a fighter-plane with his
Ranger-X.....)

bye

P.S.:I'll ask Hoss' player what the stats were. Maybe he can remember.
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 33
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The Chromium Mage
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:33:00 GMT
on 13.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:

W> > I don't know, how thick your average Dikote-layer is (never seen one,
W> > not even a non-average one :)), but I think, it'll be enough to have you
W> > work on nearly every part of the weapon.
W>
W> Not really. Shadowtech doesn't say, but it does hint that the layer is a
W> molecular film.

Ermmm, you won't get a +1/+1 armor rating from a layer of single carbon
atoms. It's got to be thicker, or it's just good locking but no-use.

W> If you've ever field-stripped a gun, you know that there's
W> enough play in all of the components so that even if you had a layer 3
W> molecules deep, it should have no effect, the possible exception being the
W> barrel - on the inside.

Never did it. Nerver been in any army.

W> Dikote isn't more heat resistant, it just evaporates heat more quickly.
W> It is harder, but it's also a friction-reducer, which enables a similar
W> powder charge to attain a higher muzzle velocity for the bullet - less drag
W> to slow the round down in the barrel.

The physics part of my brain is very convinced that the reduction of
friction will be lost in the underflow. Do you have any friction figures?
I'll calculate it then.

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##

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