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Message no. 1
From: Carsten Gehling alvion@****.uni2.dk
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 14:45:34 +0100
I have yet again run into a problem with my player having too much money
to make that a reason to run the shadows.
It has happened to me before, and as GM I know it's my fault alone.
However, I'd like to ask you all:
What is the common price for a run in your campaigns?
What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?

Now, before you answer, I do already know, that money should not be the
only reason to run - I can whip up other reasons if needed. Also don't
answer: "It depends on their lifestyle" and the like. I've heard that
before, I'm looking for "real life" examples from your campaigns.

Thanks in advance,

- Carsten
Message no. 2
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:13:04 +0200
On Wednesday, June 02, 1999 3:46 PM, Carsten Gehling
[SMTP:alvion@****.uni2.dk] wrote:
<snipping>
> What is the common price for a run in your campaigns?
> What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?
<snipping>
> I've heard that
> before, I'm looking for "real life" examples from your campaigns.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> - Carsten
>
>
Usually the runners will earn between 2000¥ and 20000¥ each, depending
on the nature of the run and the dangers involved.

First of all they spend it on their lifestyle (I tend to keep a detailed
timeline in which the adventures/campaigns are placed) and new gear they
want to buy. fi. The mage in one of the groups wanted to spend some
time (about 2 months) on enchanting and on his studies (learning
spells). However he had to limit his private time to about 1 month,
because by then their resources ran out on the materials he needed and
on their lifestyles that had to be kept up-to-date.
Secondly they spent quite some money on getting information from their
contacts when they want additional information during a run. The
runners usually do quite some investigation on their run and they use
quite some contact to do this which will cost them from 50¥ upto 1500¥
or more depending on what they are requesting.
Finally they will spent their money on replacing/repairing gear that was
either lost or damaged during a run or on specific gear needed for the
run which will increase the price tremendously because of the short
delivery times needed. One time they needed to get into a building the
legitimate way and so the runners needed a fade SIN which could
withstand a decent check. They wanted it at a high rating and they
wanted it NOW,... so it COST THEM quite some nuyen. However it was
worth it and they successfully completed the run because of this.

Hope this helps or at least gives you some ideas to use,
Sven :)

SRCG v0.2 SR1! SR2++ SR3++ h b++>+++ B>+ UB->++ IE+(-) RN+(-) dk++>+++
sa- ma++ sh++ ad+ ri+ mc- m+ gm+>++(+++) M-(+)
Message no. 3
From: AndMat3@***.com AndMat3@***.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:14:23 EDT
In a message dated 6/2/99 8:45:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
alvion@****.uni2.dk writes:

> I have yet again run into a problem with my player having too much money
> to make that a reason to run the shadows.
> It has happened to me before, and as GM I know it's my fault alone.

have you considered that there might be other reasons to run
the shadows? money as a motivating factor is a bad one. it holds
no "greater goal" than aquiring more money.

i realize that shadowrun is (by nature) a moral-gray game; and i'm
not advocating turning shadowrunners into superheores (or any more
or less black and white... we're doing it b/c we're good!... game).
i just believe that any game that is based solely on the gathering of
money is destined to end when the characters get "x" money.

if you need some other motiviation and cannot think of any... blow
someone up. give them a run that puts a hurt on a mega-corp and
then have that corp make their life hell. they are now in the shadows
b/c if they stick their head up; it will be shot off.

just an idea.
andy
Message no. 4
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:24:03 -0500
Carsten Writes:
>>I have yet again run into a problem with my player having too much money
>>to make that a reason to run the shadows.
>>It has happened to me before, and as GM I know it's my fault alone.
>>However, I'd like to ask you all:
>>What is the common price for a run in your campaigns?

Anywhere from 10-30k generally depending on risk and resources that will
have to be expended.

>>What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?

SOTA rolls, Contact upkeep, DocWagon contracts, Hospital fees, New
Cyber/Bio, Foci ect.
Message no. 5
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:32:16 EDT
In a message dated 6/2/99 8:45:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
alvion@****.uni2.dk writes:

> What is the common price for a run in your campaigns?

I usually get around 5k per runner. Of course, it does depend on the run
(First run, hired to take a ring to Arkham, the Cthulhu Theme Town, second,
to try to find out why all the people in Arkham keep getting killed :-)
I will probably keep the runs in that price range, and keep the power in
the similar area.


> What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?

Well, got a few hermetics in my group, they will spend so much on keeping up
on elementals, I doubt they will have a problem. The others, I offered the
"run for karma" that I mentioned a few weeks ago, so tehy are not
accunulating money very quickly.
Message no. 6
From: Cybertroll cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:44:07 +0300
Carsten Gehling wrote:
>
> I have yet again run into a problem with my player having too much money
> to make that a reason to run the shadows.
> It has happened to me before, and as GM I know it's my fault alone.
> However, I'd like to ask you all:
> What is the common price for a run in your campaigns?
> What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?

Depends on the run... For a small run 5K - 10K will be more than
enough... Don't forget that medium lifestyle costs 5000 Y so 10000 are
enough for someone to live for 2 months! For more dangerous ones the
prize can go really high, but personally I would give 50000Y+ only to
very lethal runs, like to infiltrate the Renraku headquarters and get
some files.
If ur players complain about low fees, remind them that their enemies
use guns. Guns cost money.
Let them think by themselves ways of getting more money out of a run.
About spending money now... Well from the simplest things like
lifestyle, fixing the car that got damaged in the last run (don't forget
that not many persons would fix a car that has let's say 10-20 bullet
holes without asking questions... and those that don't ask questions,
ask for more money :-) ), buying new weapons, new chips, software for
the deck etc to the most extreme ones like expensive cyberware and
bioware, magical equipment etc... Never forget the Street Index and the
fact that most of the stuff that your characters woill be interested to
buy will be illegal. And if they are SINless they will have a big
problem to find cheap things :-))

Cybertroll

--
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ICQ# : 7483400 but u have to beg to get my authorization!! :-)))
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Message no. 7
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:49:11 -0400
At 14.45 06-02-99 +0100, you wrote:
>What is the common price for a run in your campaigns?

If it is a milk run (ie: grab the reporter kidnapped by the street punks),
about 10K/operative. If it something good (ie: a corp. vp highers you to
kidnap himself and hisfamily so that he can deffect), as much 40K a piece.
But the group I've been running with has incorporated, and the company gets
half of the money.

>What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?

Life style. I have general idea of how beat armour is getting. I make
them track ammo. Skills improvement requires materail, and frequently an
instructor.




CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://www.Geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
Message no. 8
From: Carsten Gehling alvion@****.uni2.dk
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:08:55 +0100
cmpetro@*********.com wrote:

> >>What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?
>
> SOTA rolls, Contact upkeep, DocWagon contracts, Hospital fees, New
> Cyber/Bio, Foci ect.

Now, this sounds interesting, what do you mean by "Contact upkeep"? A little
dough here and again to keep them interested in you?

- Carsten
Message no. 9
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:16:13 +1000
> I have yet again run into a problem with my player having too much money
> to make that a reason to run the shadows.

Knowing the average player character, and quite a few players, having too
much money is a problem that rarely, if ever exists. You may not know what
to do with it momentarily, but everyone's saving for something. Unless
you've already let them get that permanent luxury lifestyle, or delta wires
3, or that MPCP 15, or... You get the picture.

> It has happened to me before, and as GM I know it's my fault alone.
> However, I'd like to ask you all:
> What is the common price for a run in your campaigns?

It varies depending on many factors... The danger, urgency, the time
involved, the complexity, needs for stealth etc... Generally from a few
thousand dollars each for common, easy runs to 20k upwards when the runner's
lives are on the line.

> What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?

Want some advice? Don't MAKE your players spend it. If he wants to save up
a trillion dollars, let him. It's a Panther Assault Cannon less that the
group can get it's hands on, if it comes to that. Money in the bank usually
causes no harm on a run, particularly if you remember availability times
when the character want that certain piece of equipment.

If, however, you REALLY don't want them to have spare cash, offer them lots
of options between games for them to spend it on. Maybe drop hints. I
remember one occasion when the GM asked "Does your character have a
grappling hook? No? Ok... Oh, it's nothing." I went and bought one out
of paranoia. Remember that spell formulae mages need to learn new spells
cost money. Tell your players to set aside a certain amount of money per
month for ammo, or travel expenses, or petrol costs, or snacks while
surveying potential targets, etc. Don't go overboard, catalogueing
everything, just remind them that life isn't free. The Johnson gets up and
leaves the restraunt, and leaves you with the bill. Cross a few hundred
dollars off the account.

Depending on the situation, let them get their big, expensive toy too.
Denying something a player wants simply because you don't want him to have
it usually ends up with bad feelings. So, let him have it. Let him play
with it for a while, too. Sure, for the next run or two the characters
might breeze through it, but after that find some way to get rid of it, or
remind the player how dangerous it is to have. Sand Blast is great at
destroying weapons. Wrecker works for vehicles. Having the character hear
a trid report on how the police are cracking down on illegal firearms.

Trust me, there's lots of ways to get rid of unwelcome wealth. And no one
ever has too much.

> Now, before you answer, I do already know, that money should not be the
> only reason to run

It actually can be the only reason to run... But I can't recall even one
player in our group that's retired his character because of too much spare
cash. Even those that planned to retire when they became rich didn't make
it to the magic $10 million for permanent luxury.

Oh, and if you're playing a game where the characters already have one or
two permanent luxury lifestyles, you're way out of my league. The players
need a goal, and there's only two ways to measure their progress: money and
karma. Take away money, and that takes half the fun. (And I'm talking
about needing LOTS of money to take money from the equation... Several
million at least, probably several hundred million).

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scattered showers my ass... - Noah
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:15:42 -0500
Carsten Gehling <alvion@****.uni2.dk>
06/02/99 10:08 AM


Please respond to shadowrn@*********.org



To: shadowrn@*********.org
cc: (bcc: Chris M. Petro/Household International)
Subject: Re: The money issue




cmpetro@*********.com wrote:

>> >>What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?
>>
>> SOTA rolls, Contact upkeep, DocWagon contracts, Hospital fees, New
>> Cyber/Bio, Foci ect.

>Now, this sounds interesting, what do you mean by "Contact upkeep"? A
little
>dough here and again to keep them interested in you?

Yep, I believe it's in the rules (don't remember where). Also the more
money they spend on/with their contacts the more likely their contacts may
go up in level. Of course a level 2 contact also costs more to maintain
than a level 1 contact. Plus a good number of contacts gives you as GM a
lot of openings and the players a lot of opportunities for role playing.
Message no. 11
From: Shaun E. Gilroy shaung@**********.net
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:36:42 -0400
At 04:08 PM 6/2/99 +0100, you wrote:
>cmpetro@*********.com wrote:
>
>> >>What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?
>>
>> SOTA rolls, Contact upkeep, DocWagon contracts, Hospital fees, New
>> Cyber/Bio, Foci ect.
>
>Now, this sounds interesting, what do you mean by "Contact upkeep"? A little
>dough here and again to keep them interested in you?
>
>- Carsten
>

The rules for SOTA advancement and Contact Upkeep are in the Companion. It
also has rules to help determine the time it takes for a character to train
for a skill upgrade. That book has a 101 ways to force PCs to burn time
and money if you invoke many of the 'fluff' rules it provides. :)

All in all, its a good book to have around if you GM.



Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corp.
Message no. 12
From: Karsten_DÃŒrotin karsten@****.net
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:37:54 +0200
>I have yet again run into a problem with my player having too much
money
>to make that a reason to run the shadows.
>It has happened to me before, and as GM I know it's my fault alone.
>However, I'd like to ask you all:
>What is the common price for a run in your campaigns?
>What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?
>
>Now, before you answer, I do already know, that money should not be the
>only reason to run - I can whip up other reasons if needed. Also don't
>answer: "It depends on their lifestyle" and the like. I've heard that
>before, I'm looking for "real life" examples from your campaigns.


Well, we have all player characters living at a "revised middle"
lifestyle at the moment, meaning that they mostly live in a bad
neighbourhood, usually in small flats or ugly houses where only the
interior looks somewhat ok, but spending lots of money bribing people,
paying for their hobbies and visiting clubs, upping their rep.

In our gaming group, it's the other way around: Having played several
campaigns, the lifestyle is actually determined after what PC's earn -
and that depends on the quality of their jobs, and that, in turn,
entirely on their reputation.

In the current campaign, a single job pays between 10,000 and 150,000
Nuyen, depending on the job itself. The usual little run with the
standard team (3 people) brings about 10,000 Nuyen, and is handled in
three to four days. Two of these are enough to pay for a month of
living, the higher-paid runs adding the money for other things.

The higher-paid runs usually involve a larger team and many NPC's in
different functions (have a look here, do this for me, could you get me
a car, a Knight Errant uniform etc.), whom we usually consider part of
the team for that run. So, finally, of the 150,000 Nuyen, typically
90,000 remain after paying everything else to be divided among the
members of the rump team - that's 30,000 as absolute top payment.

I'd say that the reputation could rise still a bit, making the top-level
payment more usual, and could even allow the PC's to stage major coups -
like the one we ended a past campaign with, which paid 2 million Nuyen
and involved our PC's working mainly as fixers, organizing a timed array
of several runs on a small corporation, bringing it crashing down and
leading the attack on the headquarters in the S-S Council lands
themselves.

Finally, we had smaller-level campaigns. The campaign in which everybody
played a youth from a neighborhood running errants for the Yakuza
brought about 200 to 300 Nuyen per character, and the usual
low-reputation Shadowrunners would earn about 500-1000 Nuyen per run.

Hope this helps,

--- Karsten
Message no. 13
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@****.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:29:05 -0500
<big snippage>
> It actually can be the only reason to run... But I can't recall even one
> player in our group that's retired his character because of too much spare
> cash. Even those that planned to retire when they became rich didn't make
> it to the magic $10 million for permanent luxury.

That is what I am going for in the game I run in. Would it be a retirement
point?? No. I might start seeing about purchaseing some permanent High
lifestyles in other locations though. Ya know somewhere nice to crash when
I visit Tahiti.

>
> Oh, and if you're playing a game where the characters already have one or
> two permanent luxury lifestyles, you're way out of my league. The players
> need a goal, and there's only two ways to measure their progress: money
and
> karma. Take away money, and that takes half the fun. (And I'm talking
> about needing LOTS of money to take money from the equation... Several
> million at least, probably several hundred million).

I think the several hundred million is more accurate. Money is their. Then
again I only have one weapon focus and it is a level one. The level six I
will be trying to buy should put a good sized dent in my cash flow and a
good stopper on my Karma for a while.
>
> Slipspeed

Grimlakin
Message no. 14
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:54:07 EDT
In a message dated 6/2/99 5:45:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
alvion@****.uni2.dk writes:

> I have yet again run into a problem with my player having too much money
> to make that a reason to run the shadows.
> It has happened to me before, and as GM I know it's my fault alone.
> However, I'd like to ask you all:
> What is the common price for a run in your campaigns?
> What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?
>
> Now, before you answer, I do already know, that money should not be the
> only reason to run - I can whip up other reasons if needed. Also don't
> answer: "It depends on their lifestyle" and the like. I've heard that
> before, I'm looking for "real life" examples from your campaigns.

*THAT* question has been bandied about for quite a while around here and I've
yet to hear a good general consensus as far as hard numbers!

The simple fact is that unless you're players all have the same lifestlye, if
you base it on that, some of them are not even going to have enough to pay
the bills while others will have money flowing out of their ears!

What I've heard suggested is base the pay on two things; one the percieved
threat on the part of the Johnson, and two, how desparate the Johnson is to
have the run done. The problem with giving you hard numbers is that each
campaing has a different feel in regards to money. In some, runners are down
on their luck lowlifes who have to scrabble for every nuyen they earn, so the
GM offeres them comparativly less. In others, the runners are well paid for
the risks they take, and the fees they command are well able to fund a high
lifestyle. There is also the GM's who tend not to pay out in cash, but often
sweeten the pot for runners with other goods like future favors or access to
equipment.

I do belive it has also been mentioned that there are some guidelines in
SR3's companion. However, since you want hard numbers, I can give you as
examples the last two runs of the present campaing I'm in. The previous run,
we recieved 5k in advance, and 50k upon completetion, each. The run was a
locate and recover, and time sensitive. The scientist DID have to be
returned alive, and it turned out that there was pretty heavy opposition.
The run we're working right now is to locate and eliminate a Humanis
activist, and the fee was 30k TOTAL (and there's like 7 of us in the group)
but so far the threat level has been minimal. I'm also playing in another
game in which payment is not in cash at all, but rather in future favors and
information.
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:59:08 +0200
According to Carsten Gehling, at 14:45 on 2 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> I have yet again run into a problem with my player having too much money
> to make that a reason to run the shadows.
> It has happened to me before, and as GM I know it's my fault alone.
> However, I'd like to ask you all:
> What is the common price for a run in your campaigns?

It varies widely. ATM one of our groups is playing a campaign where we're
going through all of FASA's adventures in chronological order, so the
price is set by the adventures. The other group is a Cyberpirates!
campaign, so they make the money they get for selling whatever they can
steal. (Which so far has been too much -- they captured a tanker full of
oil and made over a million from that. Luckily for me they sold the oil
and gave away the tanker...! :)

For home-made runs, though, I tend to let Mr. Johnson pay somewhere
between 5,000 and 20,000 nuyen per person, depending on the difficulty
involved. A run that can be easily completed in a few hours earns less,
while one that involves a lot of work, takes a long time, and/or has the
players travel will usually get them more than 20K.

> What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?

I spend it for them :) (In short: in the latest adventure of the
cyberpirates campaign, I played rather than GMed, and crashed the mini-sub
they'd bought -- with the money from the tanker -- in order to save the
other PCs.)

Usually, though, I don't make any particular effort to rid them of their
money. Maybe I should...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here I am, still intact, and I should give myself credit for that
-- Tilt, "Unravel"
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:59:08 +0200
According to Carsten Gehling, at 16:08 on 2 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> Now, this sounds interesting, what do you mean by "Contact upkeep"? A
little
> dough here and again to keep them interested in you?

Yep. But it doesn't really mean much when taken straight BTB. Spend a
couple of hundred nuyen a year on a level 1 contact and they'll be happy.
Levels 2 and 3 require more (several thousand) but it's still not all that
much compared to what, in my campaign anyway, runners make.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here I am, still intact, and I should give myself credit for that
-- Tilt, "Unravel"
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:32:34 CST
>cmpetro@*********.com wrote:
>
>Now, this sounds interesting, what do you mean by "Contact upkeep"? A
>little
>dough here and again to keep them interested in you?
>

Exactly! The same cost as buying the contact in the first place. Although,
a player can always find more creative ways of payment.

>- Carsten

Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


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Message no. 18
From: Felix Horbach horbach@*****.uni-mannheim.de
Subject: The money issue
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 02:47:53 +0200
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In a message dated 6/2/99 8:45:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
alvion@****.uni2.dk writes:

> I have yet again run into a problem with my player having too much
money
> to make that a reason to run the shadows.
> It has happened to me before, and as GM I know it's my fault alone.

Hmmm, just have a look at the damage healing tables. Simply put, healing
from deadly damage to serious will take about 3 (minimum) to 30 days
(maximum) each day at 1000 nuyen. Magical care even more expensive and
since normally the mages are taken out first there will be no help
either.
And remember - this is only normal treatment. If you are hunted and
don't want anyone to know your whereabouts be prepared to pay tree times
normal fees to keep your delicate privacy.
On the other hand if the problem involves only one player its more of an
benefit. Just read the streets of blood novel. All you need are some old
friends (the runners) in distress and there you are - who could be of
more help than an old, rich and well connected friend of old.
And for the really insanely rich try the stock market. The players keep
their money (they could get even richer) but the access to the money can
be limited at will without bending reality too much ("Sorry, sir. No,
still no offers but Ill do my best. Keep calling").
Well, hope it's of some help,
Watcher spirit

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Message no. 19
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:25:51 -0700 (PDT)
> The run we're working right now is to locate and eliminate a Humanis
activist, and the fee was 30k TOTAL (and there's like 7 of us in the
group) but so far the threat level has been minimal. I'm also playing
in another game in which payment is not in cash at all, but rather in
future favors and information.
<Starrngr>

Errr...unless I'm terribly mistaken, it's 30K total APIECE, Mike. Not
for the whole group. I really would've been frothing and foaming at the
mouth if it was. :)

I concur with most everything else he says, though. My advice is, there
are NO hard and fast rules that will work for most people, let alone
EVERYBODY. Give your team what YOU think is fair. If, after the run,
they're rolling in cash, give them less next time. If they complain,
waffle on about market vagaries and a glut of runners making it a
buyer's market. If, on the other hand, they're merely scraping by,
increase the payments next time. Eventually you'll be able to find
something realistic and reasonable for your campaign. It just takes
time. No quick fix on this one, unless you get lucky.

*"Btw, I hardly think Grailen would agree with your assessment of the
threat level." Doc' grins evilly...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 20
From: Karsten_DÃŒrotin karsten@****.net
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:29:32 +0200
>> I have yet again run into a problem with my player having too much
money
>> to make that a reason to run the shadows.
>
>Knowing the average player character, and quite a few players, having
too
>much money is a problem that rarely, if ever exists. You may not know
what
>to do with it momentarily, but everyone's saving for something. Unless
>you've already let them get that permanent luxury lifestyle, or delta
wires
>3, or that MPCP 15, or... You get the picture.


Hm. An MPCP 15... or Delta Wires... now tell me one simple thing: Why
hasn't a character who has accumulated THAT MUCH money retired yet? I
mean, I have motiations for my player characters besides the money, but
I think it wouldn't be Shadowrun if money wasn't at least a nice
incentive. And a player character who has literally millions of nuyen on
a bank account doesn't need that incentive at all. Heck, he could simply
pay someone else to do HIS runs... At least I guess someone like that
would become a fixer or something.

>> What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?
>
>Want some advice? Don't MAKE your players spend it. If he wants to
save up
>a trillion dollars, let him. It's a Panther Assault Cannon less that
the
>group can get it's hands on, if it comes to that. Money in the bank
usually
>causes no harm on a run, particularly if you remember availability
times
>when the character want that certain piece of equipment.


Except if you want them to scrape for cash sometimes, when someone comes
looking for them over an old debt. Or, if you don't want them to EVER
buy another Panther Assault Cannon. or if you don't want their
characters to ask themselves why they haven't retired whenever the lead
starts flying.

--- Karsten
Message no. 21
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:22:14 EDT
In a message dated 6/2/99 6:23:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> Errr...unless I'm terribly mistaken, it's 30K total APIECE, Mike. Not
> for the whole group. I really would've been frothing and foaming at the
> mouth if it was. :)
>
Just an example of how two people can read the same thing and get two
different answers. I really thought it was 30k TOTAL, not each. Then again,
HM really doesnt like bigots, so like Shane, he would have taken it even
though there wasnt as much in the pot at the end of the rainbow.

>
> *"Btw, I hardly think Grailen would agree with your assessment of the
> threat level." Doc' grins evilly...*

Heh. Thats cause he didnt think about what he was doing...
Message no. 22
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:46:22 -0700 (PDT)
> Just an example of how two people can read the same thing and get two
different answers. I really thought it was 30k TOTAL, not each. Then
again, HM really doesnt like bigots, so like Shane, he would have taken
it even though there wasnt as much in the pot at the end of the
rainbow.

Gee, and you think Rabid LIKES anti-metahuman bigots? I've got
expenses, though. :)

> > *"Btw, I hardly think Grailen would agree with your assessment of
the threat level." Doc' grins evilly...*
>
> Heh. Thats cause he didnt think about what he was doing...

You've got a point there. As did the Nightstalkers, I believe. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 23
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:24:08 -0400
Karsten Dürotin wrote:

> <SNIP>
> Hm. An MPCP 15... or Delta Wires... now tell me one simple thing: Why
> hasn't a character who has accumulated THAT MUCH money retired yet? I
> mean, I have motiations for my player characters besides the money, but
> I think it wouldn't be Shadowrun if money wasn't at least a nice
> incentive. And a player character who has literally millions of nuyen on
> a bank account doesn't need that incentive at all. Heck, he could simply
> pay someone else to do HIS runs... At least I guess someone like that
> would become a fixer or something.
>

I guess you don't play PBEM very much, do you? Those who have, ever heard of
Earl and the gang? I've heard about it from a friend who played in a PBEM
with Earl, as an otaku, and who was BANNED from the group for making the
otaku too good!!!!

> >> What do you do to make your players spend their hardearned nuyen?
> >
> >Want some advice? Don't MAKE your players spend it. If he wants to
> save up
> >a trillion dollars, let him. It's a Panther Assault Cannon less that
> the
> >group can get it's hands on, if it comes to that. Money in the bank
> usually
> >causes no harm on a run, particularly if you remember availability
> times
> >when the character want that certain piece of equipment.
>
> Except if you want them to scrape for cash sometimes, when someone comes
> looking for them over an old debt. Or, if you don't want them to EVER
> buy another Panther Assault Cannon. or if you don't want their
> characters to ask themselves why they haven't retired whenever the lead
> starts flying.
>
> --- Karsten



--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M-
Message no. 24
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: The money issue
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 15:29:47 +1000
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > Just an example of how two people can read the same thing and get two
> different answers. I really thought it was 30k TOTAL, not each. Then
> again, HM really doesnt like bigots, so like Shane, he would have taken
> it even though there wasnt as much in the pot at the end of the
> rainbow.
>
> Gee, and you think Rabid LIKES anti-metahuman bigots? I've got
> expenses, though. :)
>
> > > *"Btw, I hardly think Grailen would agree with your assessment of
> the threat level." Doc' grins evilly...*
> >
> > Heh. Thats cause he didnt think about what he was doing...
>
> You've got a point there. As did the Nightstalkers, I believe. :)

who is grailen and who are the nightstalkers you are referring to here?

GreyWolf
Message no. 25
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:06:48 -0700 (PDT)
> who is grailen and who are the nightstalkers you are referring to
here?
>
> GreyWolf

Whoops!

Before GridSec gets mad, let me just say - no more on this on the list
unless it directly relates to Shadowrun, 'kay?

And just to keep it on Shadowrun, if not on-topic, the Nightstalkers
are a gang first described in the Shadowrun Companion (I think - either
that or the Underworld Sourcebook) and later included in New Seattle.
They're described as the skinheads of 2060 - rabidly anti-metahuman
(pun unintentional, but somewhat appropriate nonetheless), big on
cyberware and really quite irritating.

And Grailen? He's just a dopey adept rigger who needs to learn to duck
when people shoot at him.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 26
From: Jean-Francois Audet axter@*****.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:13:12 -0700 (PDT)
--- Carsten Gehling <alvion@****.uni2.dk> wrote:
> I have yet again run into a problem with my player
> having too much money


> What do you do to make your players spend their
> hardearned nuyen?


I pay them around 5K to 30K but before we played Shadowrun we used to
play a fantasy game (like AD&D but different) where times are hard, so
they had that habit of salvaging everything they could. Unfortunatly,
they didn't lose that habit and are still salvaging stuff. One of my
adept just put a car besides his 2 racing bike in his garage.
But the stuff they salvage generally comes with holes, broken case...so
they need to repair them (lucky me!)

And some of them develop paranoia and move to higher lifestyle in
better district and they try to buy the best surveillance and security
equipment.

And this might have been my fault since I had this thing about giving
them bad luck with some of there stuff I didn't want them to have anymore!
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Message no. 27
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:13:23 EDT
In a message dated 6/2/99 10:29:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
sparrow@***.net.au writes:

> who is grailen and who are the nightstalkers you are referring to here?
>
> GreyWolf

Grailen is the other rigger in our runner group, and the Nightstalkers are a
gang that is being used by the lady we are out to eliminate as muscle.
Basicly, Grailen and our Sammie were supposed to try and infiltrate them but
They broke up an attempted rape instead...
Message no. 28
From: Carsten Gehling alvion@****.uni2.dk
Subject: The money issue
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:58:09 +0100
Having read all those great answer, gets me to another thing I've been
wondering about. How much is 1 nuyen worth in your campaigns? Buying an Ares
Predator for (what is it? 500 nuyen), isn't really doing the math for me.

If compared to present-day US-dollars, hwo much would you say it's worth? Or
in other words, how much does a NukeIt burger cost? :-)

- Carsten
Message no. 29
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: The money issue
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:28:20 +0200
According to Carsten Gehling, at 9:58 on 3 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> Having read all those great answer, gets me to another thing I've been
> wondering about. How much is 1 nuyen worth in your campaigns? Buying an
> Ares Predator for (what is it? 500 nuyen), isn't really doing the math
> for me.
>
> If compared to present-day US-dollars, hwo much would you say it's
> worth? Or in other words, how much does a NukeIt burger cost? :-)

The official answer is that one nuyen roughly equals one modern-day dollar
-- which I take to mean "use your local prices, converted to dollars"
(i.e. if a hamburger costs 3 guilders here, a soyburger costs 1.5 nuyen).

This doesn't work out 100% right for many of the items that have actual
prices on them in the books (for example, 2,200 dollars for a video camera
is a bit much), but for those that don't, it's a good indicator.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here I am, still intact, and I should give myself credit for that
-- Tilt, "Unravel"
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: Y.T. shadowrun y..t@********.com
Subject: Re[1]: The money issue
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:25:41 +0100 (WET DST)
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--=_NextPart_Caramail_020204928404901_ID
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> -------Message d'origine-------
> Having read all those great answer, gets me to another
thing I've been
> wondering about. How much is 1 nuyen worth in your
campaigns? Buying an Ares
> Predator for (what is it? 500 nuyen), isn't really doing
the math for me.
For my campaign it worst one Euro or 1US $;
it is the seam value for the moment…
YT



______________________________________________________
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--=_NextPart_Caramail_020204928404901_ID--
Message no. 31
From: Y.T. shadowrun y..t@********.com
Subject: Re[1]: The money issue
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:26:19 +0100 (WET DST)
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--=_NextPart_Caramail_020328928404909_ID
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> -------Message d'origine-------
> Having read all those great answer, gets me to another
thing I've been
> wondering about. How much is 1 nuyen worth in your
campaigns? Buying an Ares
> Predator for (what is it? 500 nuyen), isn't really doing
the math for me.
For my campaign it worst one Euro or 1US $;
it is the seam value for the moment…
YT



______________________________________________________
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--=_NextPart_Caramail_020328928404909_ID--
Message no. 32
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 19:57:40 EDT
In a message dated 6/3/99 3:58:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
alvion@****.uni2.dk writes:

> How much is 1 nuyen worth in your campaigns? Buying an Ares
> Predator for (what is it? 500 nuyen), isn't really doing the math for me.

I think the official 1¥=1 current day dollar is fitting well enough, paying
450-650 for a typical handgun is standard.
Message no. 33
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:07:26 EDT
In a message dated 6/3/99 5:01:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> > How much is 1 nuyen worth in your campaigns? Buying an Ares
> > Predator for (what is it? 500 nuyen), isn't really doing the math for
me.
>
> I think the official 1¥=1 current day dollar is fitting well enough,
paying
> 450-650 for a typical handgun is standard.

That's what its said in more than one book, and has been mentioned more than
once from the various DLOH's.....

Not to mention the fact that it makes it REAL easy to figure out what
something that isnt in the books should cost...
Message no. 34
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: The money issue
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 11:17:47 +1000
> Before GridSec gets mad, let me just say - no more on this on the list
> unless it directly relates to Shadowrun, 'kay?

At the risk of making myself look stupid (not hard, I know), I thought this
_was_ SR related..as per characters in some book or another that I havent
read yet.

GreyWolf

* All Hail Gridsoc - dont they make that silly TV show...? *
Message no. 35
From: lomion lomion@*********.escnd1.sdca.home.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 18:07:44 -0700
It also helps the players better realize the value of their nuyen. Plus
it saves on headaches for the GM to try and convert money heh.

--Larry

At 09:07 PM 6/3/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 6/3/99 5:01:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
>writes:
>
> > > How much is 1 nuyen worth in your campaigns? Buying an Ares
> > > Predator for (what is it? 500 nuyen), isn't really doing the math for
>me.
> >
> > I think the official 1¥=1 current day dollar is fitting well enough,
>paying
> > 450-650 for a typical handgun is standard.
>
>That's what its said in more than one book, and has been mentioned more than
>once from the various DLOH's.....
>
>Not to mention the fact that it makes it REAL easy to figure out what
>something that isnt in the books should cost...
>
Message no. 36
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 14:24:31 +1000
> Hm. An MPCP 15... or Delta Wires... now tell me one simple thing: Why
> hasn't a character who has accumulated THAT MUCH money retired yet?

*shrugs* For the same reason AD&D characters keep going after 10th level or
so, or Shadowrun characters keep going after a few hundred karma, etc...
Because every now and then some people like to play games where the odds are
in the character's favour against regular people. Sometimes it's nice to
not scrape the bottom of the barrel just to get through a run, whether money
is the problem or simply living.

Sometimes it's nice to be able to save for all those nice, REALLY expensive
toys, and actually get them. One of my characters wanted a modified
Aguilar-Ex, for example. The satisfaction of actually getting it, and
playing with it for a while was well worth the months and months of play.
THEN I retired the character, because he no longer had a goal, however. : )

> Except if you want them to scrape for cash sometimes, when someone comes
> looking for them over an old debt. Or, if you don't want them to EVER
> buy another Panther Assault Cannon. or if you don't want their
> characters to ask themselves why they haven't retired whenever the lead
> starts flying.

If my GM did that, I'd consider quitting very seriously. Sure, money can't
buy the characters out of everything, but sometimes it's nice to be able to
do it. If you want to play a street rat campaign where players have to
scrape together money, fine. It's not MY idea of fun, though.

As for toys like PACs, if you don't want the characters to have them, tell
that to the PLAYERS, and have a damn good reason for it. Nothing annoys me
more than "You can't have object x because I say so." No, scratch that, the
most annoying thing is getting something like that and having the GM waste
it straight away because he doesn't want you to have it. A better way to
handle things like that is to make it very clear that there will be
penalties for misuse. Fine, let the character have the PAC, but keep it
locked in a cupboard somewhere until it's really needed. Otherwise that cop
you just passed is going to do quite a bit more than give you a talking to
about having an illegal weapon. If you actually USE the PAC, it'd better be
for a good reason and even then only occasionally, otherwise Lone Star is
going to send a HTR team to look for the psycho shooting big holes in things
with an even bigger gun.

As for characters asking themselves whether they should retire when the lead
starts to fly, if the players are considering doing that to their characters
that they've played with for quite a while, then you the GM should sit up
and take notice and think about what you're doing wrong. I've never seen a
character retire because it's threatened. In fact, I've only ever seen a
character retire for two reasons. 1) It grew too powerful for the group it
was in, or 2) the player was sick of the concept and wanted to play
something different.

Then again, maybe I just have too many expectations for my character -
advancement, getting ahead in the world, becoming more powerful/rich etc...
All those things I like to do myself.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scattered showers my ass... - Noah
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 37
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: The money issue
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 14:50:56 +1000
> In fact, I've only ever seen a
> character retire for two reasons. 1) It grew too powerful for the group it
> was in, or 2) the player was sick of the concept and wanted to play
> something different.

Personally option two is the only reason Ive ever seen a character retired.
Mostly the first option is avoided by the GM's Ive seen, by evening up the party
when allocating karma (or if a character is consistently better than other,
giving some other kind of benefit, like free contacts for example). new
characters also come in with a few more karma to spend so they arent so far
behind. The whole party gets retired after the fun goes because they all get too
good. They then start again. This is option 2 coming into effect.

GreyWolf
Message no. 38
From: Rori Steel cullyn@*****.com.au
Subject: The money issue
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 05:00:13 +0000 (GMT)
On Fri, 04 Jun 1999 14:50:56 +1000, you wrote:

>> In fact, I've only ever seen a
>> character retire for two reasons. 1) It grew too powerful for the group it
>> was in, or 2) the player was sick of the concept and wanted to play
>> something different.

Our group does it for reason 3 usually. Which involves reason 2. We
cant play a character unless we have a background for him. The more
detailed it is, the more the GM can do with it, and the more fun the
game is. When a character has what they want (money/contacts/object?)
they retire, usually a process to getting that done too. Of course you
get your characters who wanna run till they die, but they can be sent
to chicago until you want to reminise :>

Eg. Aby, has a 4 year old, runs to get set up, retires in the Tir and
never needs to work/run again. Calli (4 year old) is set up for life,
and so are all her grandkids.

Reminising is fun too. Gm's, you know how you get an awesome idea for
a run, but it could really kill everyone? well.. let your players
bring their old 'powerful' characters back, and let them go out with a
bang :> (or get bucketloads of karma)

Old characters who dont die make excellent NPC's (assumed knowledge)

*sigh* nice friendly topic :>

Cullyn
cullyn@*****.com.au
members.xoom.com/rori
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Message no. 39
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: The money issue
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 08:33:43
At 09:07 PM 6/3/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 6/3/99 5:01:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
>writes:
>
>> > How much is 1 nuyen worth in your campaigns? Buying an Ares
>> > Predator for (what is it? 500 nuyen), isn't really doing the math for
>me.
>>
>> I think the official 1¥=1 current day dollar is fitting well enough,
>paying
>> 450-650 for a typical handgun is standard.
>
>That's what its said in more than one book, and has been mentioned more than
>once from the various DLOH's.....
>
>Not to mention the fact that it makes it REAL easy to figure out what
>something that isnt in the books should cost...

But pay attention to caveats like the printer in (I think) SR1 that cost 1
Nuyen. The boom in tech makes things less expensive to manufacture, most
of the time. Remember technology can make things more expensive as well by
adding complexity to the process.

Lloyd Vance
ljvance@*******.edu
(530)752-5643
"To be an artist is to fail,
as no other dare fail."
--Samuel Beckett
Message no. 40
From: Karsten_DÃŒrotin karsten@****.net
Subject: The money issue
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:26:28 +0200
>Having read all those great answer, gets me to another thing I've been
>wondering about. How much is 1 nuyen worth in your campaigns? Buying an
Ares
>Predator for (what is it? 500 nuyen), isn't really doing the math for
me.
>
>If compared to present-day US-dollars, hwo much would you say it's
worth? Or
>in other words, how much does a NukeIt burger cost? :-)


Most people assume a conversion of 1 Nuyen to 1 current US$. When I
compared some prices, especially those on lifestyle, I decided to assume
that 1 Nuyen equals 1 Deutsche Mark, which seemed to fit in much better.
Also, it's consistent with the fact that 1 Euro is about 2 Deutsche Mark
today, and 1 EC is given as 2 Nuyen in the Germany Sourcebook. Looks
fine, doesn't it? :-)

--- Karsten
Message no. 41
From: Karsten_DÃŒrotin karsten@****.net
Subject: The money issue
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:30:44 +0200
>In a message dated 6/3/99 3:58:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>alvion@****.uni2.dk writes:
>
>> How much is 1 nuyen worth in your campaigns? Buying an Ares
>> Predator for (what is it? 500 nuyen), isn't really doing the math
for me.
>
>I think the official 1¥=1 current day dollar is fitting well enough,
paying
>450-650 for a typical handgun is standard.


Yeah, but do you actually think that paying $1000 per month on one
person's lifestyle is just enough for lower class? Sounds kinda
stupid...

--- Karsten
Message no. 42
From: Karsten_DÃŒrotin karsten@****.net
Subject: The money issue
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:55:25 +0200
>> Hm. An MPCP 15... or Delta Wires... now tell me one simple thing: Why
>> hasn't a character who has accumulated THAT MUCH money retired yet?
>
>*shrugs* For the same reason AD&D characters keep going after 10th
level or
>so, or Shadowrun characters keep going after a few hundred karma,
etc...
>Because every now and then some people like to play games where the
odds are
>in the character's favour against regular people. Sometimes it's nice
to
>not scrape the bottom of the barrel just to get through a run, whether
money
>is the problem or simply living.


I didn't talk about the player here, I talked about the character. I'd
say 90% out of all people who are doing things like Shadowruns are in it
because it's what they can do best. They earn their living out of it,
and most will have the dream of eventually taking all that damn money
they saved up, buy a nice farm somewhere and retire. That's what I
meant: I think for every character who has that much money accumulated,
you should have a DAMN GOOD reason why he thinks risking his ass in
dangerous situations is more to his taste than buying that farm right
now.

>Sometimes it's nice to be able to save for all those nice, REALLY
expensive
>toys, and actually get them. One of my characters wanted a modified
>Aguilar-Ex, for example. The satisfaction of actually getting it, and
>playing with it for a while was well worth the months and months of
play.
>THEN I retired the character, because he no longer had a goal, however.
: )


Well, such things are beyond the scope of some campaigns, in some they
are in order. Usually, I only use attack helicopters in a run or two,
because the runners get to use it for that job. Mr. Johnson has access
to those things, but do PC's really have to own a helicopter? They won't
be able to use it in most runs, and when they actually bring it on, they
will be better off hiding it for a month or so, because they will
usually have used it in a crime...

My current campaign has a rigger who bought a helicopter now. Not a
military-grade thing, just a nice vehicle that can fly and carry the
team around. IMO, that's enough for a person to own. Corporations,
governments and organizations own military vehicles. Persons don't.

>If my GM did that, I'd consider quitting very seriously. Sure, money
can't
>buy the characters out of everything, but sometimes it's nice to be
able to
>do it. If you want to play a street rat campaign where players have to
>scrape together money, fine. It's not MY idea of fun, though.


You misunderstood. I have the imagination that no one can save up
massive amounts of money easily. Try to really get a feel for your
character here - he's earning THAT much money, and doesn't spend it to
have fun? Why shouldn't he? He is doing a great job, he is supposed to
live well on it...

And when my characters have real lots of money, they usually transfer it
to safe places. Our magician character (who has been reactivated after
retiring on a major run's payment) had half a million lying around when
the campaign restarted. The player didn't want all that money in a sock
under his pillow, so he decided to help a friend who owned a Nightclub
and had spent a few years in prison. The friend had no money, and so our
mage gave her that money to reopen the club. She gets free drinks, part
of what the club earns and a safe place for meetings and a great place
to hang out. Otherwise, running the club herself isn't what she likes to
do, and with her expensive tastes, she needs to earn more money than
what she gets out of the club. So she's still doing runs, but she
chooses the best runs possible and spends that money on lifestyle and
magical goods. Not a street rat, huh?

>As for toys like PACs, if you don't want the characters to have them,
tell
>that to the PLAYERS, and have a damn good reason for it. Nothing
annoys me
>more than "You can't have object x because I say so." No, scratch
that, the
>most annoying thing is getting something like that and having the GM
waste
>it straight away because he doesn't want you to have it. A better way
to
>handle things like that is to make it very clear that there will be
>penalties for misuse. Fine, let the character have the PAC, but keep
it
>locked in a cupboard somewhere until it's really needed. Otherwise
that cop
>you just passed is going to do quite a bit more than give you a talking
to
>about having an illegal weapon. If you actually USE the PAC, it'd
better be
>for a good reason and even then only occasionally, otherwise Lone Star
is
>going to send a HTR team to look for the psycho shooting big holes in
things
>with an even bigger gun.


Yeah, well, I usually make expensive items... well, expensive. And my
players look at it from their character's point of view. Should I pay
for that PAC, and leave it in the cupboard so no cop gets a look at it,
or should I spend the money to have a better life, and rent such things
when I need them?

Actually, with just a Panther, it's not that much of an issue to me -
the above statements are more for military vehicles and such. PC's can
have a Panther lying at home, as long as they know not to wave it around
in public. Heck, they won't even use it on a normal run. Only when the
drek hits the fan. And that's okay for me.

>As for characters asking themselves whether they should retire when the
lead
>starts to fly, if the players are considering doing that to their
characters
>that they've played with for quite a while, then you the GM should sit
up
>and take notice and think about what you're doing wrong. I've never
seen a
>character retire because it's threatened. In fact, I've only ever seen
a
>character retire for two reasons. 1) It grew too powerful for the
group it
>was in, or 2) the player was sick of the concept and wanted to play
>something different.


Why not? Well, are your characters adrenaline junkies who like the
prospect of being shot by some corporate sec guard who just does his
job? Do they really like THEIR job? I don't think so. They have reasons
to do what they do, and if those reasons aren't there anymore, they'll
quit. And buy that farm I mentioned...

>Then again, maybe I just have too many expectations for my character -
>advancement, getting ahead in the world, becoming more powerful/rich
etc...
>All those things I like to do myself.


Advancement - well, they want to become better. Why? To raise their
status, to earn more money, to show off. Well, a character who has, say,
half a million saved up will be good enough and have a high enough
status that that doesn't count that much anymore.

Getting ahead in the world - by Shadowrunning? Come on...

Become more powerful/rich - you won't ever become powerful when you
started out as a Shadowrunner. Powerful people are those who pull a
corporation's strings, who are politicos or immortal elves.
Shadowrunners usually only become more DANGEROUS, and that only because
they need it to survive. And rich? There's an end to that. Well, with a
million - or even half a million - I don't think I'd want to risk death
for 20K Nuyen. I'd look for a less dangerous occupation. And probably
return to Shadowrunning once that less dangerous occupation crashes
because I am not used to it, but that is another issue...

--- Karsten
Message no. 43
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 16:30:44 -0500
On Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:30:44 +0200 "Karsten_Dürotin"
<karsten@****.net> writes:
<SNIP>
>Yeah, but do you actually think that paying $1000 per month on one
>person's lifestyle is just enough for lower class? Sounds kinda
>stupid...

Actually, it sounds a bit overpriced ... it covers, food, utilities and
rent ... maybe a few miscilaneous other things, but yes, $1000 per month
can easily cover a low lifestyle. Remember, it does NOT include car
payments or car insurance!

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 44
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 01:00:20 EDT
In a message dated 6/5/99 2:45:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dghost@****.com
writes:

> Actually, it sounds a bit overpriced ... it covers, food, utilities and
> rent ... maybe a few miscilaneous other things, but yes, $1000 per month
> can easily cover a low lifestyle. Remember, it does NOT include car
> payments or car insurance!

It really depends on how you define low. I squeak by on about $700 a month,
and that just barely makes ends meet. That covers the real basics... Rent,
food, and phone. I effectivly have no entertainment budget, and definatly
couldnt afford a car. At $1000 a month, I could easily see a person having a
low lifestyle. The only difference is they would have a larger apt, basic
cable, and a couple of other things like that...
Message no. 45
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 11:00:48 -0700 (PDT)
On Sun, 6 Jun 1999 01:00:20 EDT, Starrngr@***.com wrote:

>In a message dated 6/5/99 2:45:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dghost@****.com
>writes:
>
>> Actually, it sounds a bit overpriced ... it covers, food, utilities and
>> rent ... maybe a few miscilaneous other things, but yes, $1000 per month
>> can easily cover a low lifestyle. Remember, it does NOT include car
>> payments or car insurance!
>
>It really depends on how you define low. I squeak by on about $700 a month,
>and that just barely makes ends meet. That covers the real basics... Rent,
>food, and phone. I effectivly have no entertainment budget, and definatly
>couldnt afford a car. At $1000 a month, I could easily see a person having a
>low lifestyle. The only difference is they would have a larger apt, basic
>cable, and a couple of other things like that...

Exactly, even low lifestyle includes net (matrix) access at a fast enough data-rate to
support even the hottest decker...

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 46
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: The money issue
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 17:38:44 +1000
> Actually, it sounds a bit overpriced ... it covers, food, utilities and
> rent ... maybe a few miscilaneous other things, but yes, $1000 per month
> can easily cover a low lifestyle. Remember, it does NOT include car
> payments or car insurance!

I didnt think you could GET insurance in SR?

GreyWolf
Message no. 47
From: Richard Tomasso richard@****.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:03:13 -0400 (EDT)
In a message dated 6/5/99 2:45:06 PM , dghost@****.com writes:

> Actually, it sounds a bit overpriced ... it covers, food, utilities and
> rent ... maybe a few miscilaneous other things, but yes, $1000 per month
> can easily cover a low lifestyle. Remember, it does NOT include car
> payments or car insurance!

I thought the prices were high as well, but they are for living in the
city of Seattle, which I imagine has a higher cost of living than most other
places since everthing has to be shipped in and a few other reasons.
Not to mention all the extra money for bribes, schmoozing contacts, etc that
would go with the shadowrunning lifestyle to keep people out of your business.





From kennethv@****.wisc.edu Tue, 08 Jun
Message no. 48
From: Karsten_DÃŒrotin karsten@****.net
Subject: The money issue
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:39:19 +0200
>In a message dated 6/5/99 2:45:06 PM , dghost@****.com writes:
>
>> Actually, it sounds a bit overpriced ... it covers, food, utilities
and
>> rent ... maybe a few miscilaneous other things, but yes, $1000 per
month
>> can easily cover a low lifestyle. Remember, it does NOT include car
>> payments or car insurance!
>
>I thought the prices were high as well, but they are for living in the
>city of Seattle, which I imagine has a higher cost of living than most
other
>places since everthing has to be shipped in and a few other reasons.
>Not to mention all the extra money for bribes, schmoozing contacts, etc
that
>would go with the shadowrunning lifestyle to keep people out of your
business.


I have designed a somewhat more detailed system for lifestyle
calculations that works to help players give more thought to their
character's living conditions. It's not bogged down in a thousand
details, but let's players decide on what their flat looks like, what
they are eating etc. and combine this into their monthly payment, giving
every category a "lifestyle" of its own. If anyone is interested, mail
me privately and I'll translate it to english.

--- Karsten





From lomion@*********.escnd1.sdca.home.com Tue,
Message no. 49
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:25:26 -0500
On Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:39:19 +0200 "Karsten_Dürotin"
<karsten@****.net> writes:
<SNIP>
>I have designed a somewhat more detailed system for lifestyle
>calculations that works to help players give more thought to their
>character's living conditions. It's not bogged down in a thousand
>details, but let's players decide on what their flat looks like, what
>they are eating etc. and combine this into their monthly payment, giving
>every category a "lifestyle" of its own. If anyone is interested, mail
>me privately and I'll translate it to english.

Please send it to me privately (or post it if it's too big or if there is
enough interest). :) I tried to do this myself but I got a bit bogged
down when I tried to categorize the factors I was going to consider.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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From Grimlakin@****.com Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:51:40
Message no. 50
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: The money issue
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:13:42 EDT
In a message dated 6/8/99 1:13:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, karsten@****.net
writes:

> I have designed a somewhat more detailed system for lifestyle
> calculations that works to help players give more thought to their
> character's living conditions. It's not bogged down in a thousand
> details, but let's players decide on what their flat looks like, what
> they are eating etc. and combine this into their monthly payment, giving
> every category a "lifestyle" of its own. If anyone is interested, mail
> me privately and I'll translate it to english.
>
> --- Karsten

I'd like to see this, and it would probobly make a great addition to either
TSS or the Shadowrun Archive. Have you considered submitting it to either of
those???




From docwagon101@*****.com Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:29

Further Reading

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Thwap!