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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:21:51 +0100

Message no. 1 Justin Pinnow said on 12:04/22 Jul 97...

> Are you sure you were playing things out correctly? I mean, bug spirits
> are NOT that easy to kill. They have threat ratings equal to their force
> (which means your force 4 true form should have 8 dice to roll with every
> attack/counter attack it makes)

12 dice: its "skill" is its Reaction, which is equal to twice its Force.
Add the Threat Rating to it, and the bu attacks with Force x 3 dice.

> they have immunity to normal weapons (2 x essence in armor vs. guns,
> arrows, explosions, etc.)

Explosions won't do anything AT ALL against them. You chuck a grenade,
it blows up, and the spirit just walks out of it as if nothing happened.

> and if they are hurt, they can up and leave (in the case above,
> involving a true form anyway).

That is definitely a big advantage for the spirit. Also add in a few nice
powers like venom and paralyzing touch, and you have one tough fragger,
unless perhaps it's a simple Force 1 or 2 critter. Force 3 gets difficult,
4 is difficult, and fighting a Force 5+ is tempting fate in most cases.

> I just don't see how a character with a willpower of 6 can whoop so much
> butt...I mean, he doesn't get to use his Combat Pool, because he's using
> Willpower, NOT Armed Combat to attack the bug. Thus, the PC should be
> rolling 6 dice for Armed Combat, and the Bug should be rolling 8. Not to
> mention, the bug's armor against the sword...the PC should be toast.

For the attack/defense tests, the Force 4 spirit has twice as many dice as
the player. Assuming it gets hit, it has natural armor in the order of
2 or 3 points, and a Body of around 6, plus those 4 Threat Rating dice.
That should make it survive many armed and unarmed attacks, if you play
them right.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Rudely awakened by the telephone.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:39:09 -0400

Message no. 2 On Tuesday, July 22, 1997 14:21, Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.NL] wrote:
>Justin Pinnow Wrote
> > I just don't see how a character with a willpower of 6 can whoop so
much
> > butt...I mean, he doesn't get to use his Combat Pool, because he's
using
> > Willpower, NOT Armed Combat to attack the bug. Thus, the PC should be
> > rolling 6 dice for Armed Combat, and the Bug should be rolling 8. Not
to
> > mention, the bug's armor against the sword...the PC should be toast.
>
> For the attack/defense tests, the Force 4 spirit has twice as many dice
as
> the player. Assuming it gets hit, it has natural armor in the order of
> 2 or 3 points, and a Body of around 6, plus those 4 Threat Rating dice.
> That should make it survive many armed and unarmed attacks, if you play
> them right.

As my players have learned, an assault rifle in FA mode tends to put bugs
down crunchy. (course, at 6-9 rounds of ammo per bug, they'd better be
carrying a few extra clips, and I penalize firearm use in close combat.)
Bugs *don't* have immunity to normal weapons as printed.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)

From:	Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:35:45 -0400

Message no. 3 > From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
> Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 1:39 PM

> As my players have learned, an assault rifle in FA mode tends to put bugs
> down crunchy. (course, at 6-9 rounds of ammo per bug, they'd better be
> carrying a few extra clips, and I penalize firearm use in close combat.)
> Bugs *don't* have immunity to normal weapons as printed.

What source are you using for that last comment? Everything I have ever
read states that bugs have immunity to normal weapons. That makes a HUGE
difference in their power level.

> --
> Quicksilver rides again

Justin :)

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:57:35 EDT

Message no. 4 On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:39:09 -0400 Jonathan Hurley
<jhurley1@************.EDU> writes:

>As my players have learned, an assault rifle in FA mode tends to put
>bugs
>down crunchy. (course, at 6-9 rounds of ammo per bug, they'd better be
>carrying a few extra clips, and I penalize firearm use in close
>combat.)
>Bugs *don't* have immunity to normal weapons as printed.

Okay, for the sake of discussion: Ant Spirit Soldier, True Form, Force
Four. Said critter has a Reaction of _18_ on the physical plane, and its
skill in Combat is the same as its Reaction. That's 18! Plus a Threat
Rating of 4 (equal to Force), Armor equal to Force, note that Immunity to
Normal Weapons _is_not_ listed, though neither is manifestation which
includes Immunity to Normal Weapons:) Technically a true form bug can't
manifest:):) Since we all know better... This immunity counts only for
ranged attacks (like guns and explosions).

Okay, melee combat discussion solved:)

So you have a guy with (again, for discussion's sake) an AK-97 with,
we'll say, explosive ammo. So, he's doing 9M per round. Let's say he
fires 9 rounds at the bug (damage: 18D, by the book). For discussion's
sake, let's say he hits. All right, 4 points of armor, plus 8 points from
Immunity to Normal Weapons (unless you also assume they cannot manifest:)
makes that 6D Ant-boy now has 9 dice (Body plus Threat rating) to resist.
He'll take damage, but he should survive, I would think:)

--
-Canthros (Still here, just being quiet:)
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:29:17 EDT

Message no. 5 On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:35:45 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:
>What source are you using for that last comment? Everything I have
>ever
>read states that bugs have immunity to normal weapons. That makes a
>HUGE
>difference in their power level.

Actually, having just checked the Grimmy and Bug City with a close read,
it would appear that only the Queen and Mother-type spirits have Immunity
to Normal Weapons (which makes no sense at all, if you ask me...)

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:43:19 -0500

Message no. 6 You wrote:
> Actually, having just checked the Grimmy and Bug City with a close read,
> it would appear that only the Queen and Mother-type spirits have Immunity
> to Normal Weapons (which makes no sense at all, if you ask me...)
It might be that, since they are produced in some measure from human hosts,
that insect spirits are not so purely 'spirits' as the Queen, and so do not
have the benefit of INW. They are still human enough to hurt the way humans
hurt. From a game-balance POV, it's also sensible, because otherwise the bugs
wouldn't have to hide so much, and would probably be taking over more than just
poor old Chicago.

losthalo

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:01:08 -0400

Message no. 7 At 06:43 PM 7/22/97 -0500, Wendy Wanders, Subject 117 wrote these timeless
words:
>You wrote:
>> Actually, having just checked the Grimmy and Bug City with a close read,
>> it would appear that only the Queen and Mother-type spirits have Immunity
>> to Normal Weapons (which makes no sense at all, if you ask me...)
>It might be that, since they are produced in some measure from human hosts,
>that insect spirits are not so purely 'spirits' as the Queen, and so do not
>have the benefit of INW. They are still human enough to hurt the way humans
>hurt. From a game-balance POV, it's also sensible, because otherwise the
bugs
>wouldn't have to hide so much, and would probably be taking over more than
just
>poor old Chicago.
>
Q
U
E
E
N

E
U
P
H
O
R
I
A

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

Actually, in QE, all the trueforms have Immunity to Normal Weapons, and
while i's been a while sicne I read over Bug City, I thought all the True
Forms did...

And someone asked how INW worked, you (IIRC) double the force of the spirit
and that counts as the spirits armor when getting shot and such. In
addition, you use your WIllpower instead of Strength of the weapon when
fighting in HTH... When you're dealing with the average sammy (Srength 8+,
wilppower 3-4), this can be a HUGE difference, when suddenly the force 8
you're fighting is takeing 4M damamge instead of 10M, and has 8 points of
armor, making it's resistance role effectively a 2 (Of course, it would
have been a 2 anyways, but you get the point.)

As a note: Most of this comes from my sketchy memory, and the QE Module,
which is in 1st edition rules, so... Some of the Bug Stuff may have
changed...

Bull-the-offering-up-his-opinion-before-he-goes-to-run-AD&D-Ork-Decker
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:38:38 EDT

Message no. 8 On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:01:08 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
<snip>
>Q
>U
>E
>E
>N
>
>E
>U
>P
>H
>O
>R
>I
>A
>
>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>S
>
>Actually, in QE, all the trueforms have Immunity to Normal Weapons,
>and
>while i's been a while sicne I read over Bug City, I thought all the
>True
>Forms did...

Nope, at least, not as listed in either Bug City or Grimmy 2.

<rest of message snipped>

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:38:38 EDT

Message no. 9 losthalo (under the guise of 'Wendy Wanders':) wrote:

<<It might be that, since they are produced in some measure from human
hosts, that insect spirits are not so purely 'spirits' as the Queen, and
so do not have the benefit of INW. They are still human enough to hurt
the way humans hurt. From a game-balance POV, it's also sensible,
because otherwise the bugs wouldn't have to hide so much, and would
probably be taking over more than just poor old Chicago.>>

Perhaps. Unfortunately, it also doesn't list them as having the power of
manifestation, so, by that reason, they shouldn't be able to manifest,
either:) And, if they have manifestation, they must also have Immunity to
Normal Weapons (SR2, p219). And therein lies the problem, I suppose:)

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:37:42 -0400

Message no. 10 > From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
> Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 10:38 PM
>
> losthalo (under the guise of 'Wendy Wanders':) wrote:
>
> <<It might be that, since they are produced in some measure from human
> hosts, that insect spirits are not so purely 'spirits' as the Queen, and
> so do not have the benefit of INW. They are still human enough to hurt
> the way humans hurt. From a game-balance POV, it's also sensible,
> because otherwise the bugs wouldn't have to hide so much, and would
> probably be taking over more than just poor old Chicago.>>

> Perhaps. Unfortunately, it also doesn't list them as having the power of
> manifestation, so, by that reason, they shouldn't be able to manifest,
> either:) And, if they have manifestation, they must also have Immunity to
> Normal Weapons (SR2, p219). And therein lies the problem, I suppose:)
This is why I believe that all true forms should have the powers of
Manifestation and Immunity to Normal Weapons. Also, I believe queens are
summoned into human hosts just like all other bug spirits...thus, by the
above reasoning, they wouldn't have INW either...just plain stupid. ;)

>
> --
> -Canthros
> I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
> and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
> --Francis Bacon
> http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:28:32 -0400

Message no. 11 On Tuesday, July 22, 1997 16:35, Justin Pinnow[SMTP:vanyel@*******.NET]
wrote:
> > From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
> > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 1:39 PM
>
> > As my players have learned, an assault rifle in FA mode tends to put
bugs
> > down crunchy. (course, at 6-9 rounds of ammo per bug, they'd better be
> > carrying a few extra clips, and I penalize firearm use in close
combat.)
> > Bugs *don't* have immunity to normal weapons as printed.
>
> What source are you using for that last comment? Everything I have ever
> read states that bugs have immunity to normal weapons. That makes a HUGE
> difference in their power level.

Grimoire pp103-107

None of the true form spirits have Immunity to Normal Weapons listed under
powers, except for the queens. Most of them have some sort of (critter
power) armor(the number after the slash under Body,) but none of them have
ItNW.

I was shocked as well.

Not that ItNW will help against an attack of 13-15 power level....

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)

From:	Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:32:24 -0400

Message no. 12 > From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
> Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 12:28 AM
>
> On Tuesday, July 22, 1997 16:35, Justin Pinnow[SMTP:vanyel@*******.NET]
> wrote:

> > What source are you using for that last comment? Everything I have
ever
> > read states that bugs have immunity to normal weapons. That makes a
HUGE
> > difference in their power level.

> Grimoire pp103-107

> None of the true form spirits have Immunity to Normal Weapons listed
under
> powers, except for the queens. Most of them have some sort of (critter
> power) armor(the number after the slash under Body,) but none of them
have
> ItNW.

> I was shocked as well.

Well, I believe that must be in error. True forms, IMO should have INW.
It's not canon, but Burning Bright certainly states that true forms have
said power, but flesh forms do not. I am inclined to believe that is the
intent.

> Not that ItNW will help against an attack of 13-15 power level....

Actually, it will help quite a bit. If you are fighting a force 5 true
form, that would reduce the power level to 3-5. Apply standard armor to
that and voila...almost no power left, if anything. Whatever is left will
be exceedinly easy to shake off. Big difference.

> --
> Quicksilver rides again

Justin :)

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:51:00 -0700

Message no. 13 ---John E Pederson wrote:
>
> Actually, having just checked the Grimmy and Bug City with a close
read,
> it would appear that only the Queen and Mother-type spirits have
Immunity
> to Normal Weapons (which makes no sense at all, if you ask me...)

Actually what it's implying IMHO is that Queens/Mothers have the
immunity to normal weapons per a Free Spirit's power. In other words,
immunity to all mundane weaponry (swords, clubs, guns, bows, etc.)

Whereas the other true forms only getting INW against ranged combat,
as is normal with the manifestation power.

Make sense?

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:00:08 +0100

Message no. 14 > When you're dealing with the average sammy (Srength 8+,
> willpower 3-4),

Why would a sammy have a willpower that low? He'd be wiped out by any
mage in fractions of a second... A willpower of 6 is standard for all
the sammies in my team as well as for all the sammies I ever thought
of as npc's... A samurai has to be able to fight in the front line,
and has to take the risk of catching bullets as well as mana
spells...

> this can be a HUGE difference, when suddenly the force 8
> you're fighting is takeing 4M damamge instead of 10M, and has 8 points of
> armor, making it's resistance role effectively a 2 (Of course, it would
> have been a 2 anyways, but you get the point.)

Isn't the ItNW supposed to give hardened armor? so the attack would
not harm the spirit anyway.

> Bull

ss

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:18:54 +0100

Message no. 15 >Okay, for the sake of discussion: Ant Spirit Soldier, True Form,
>Force
> Four. Said critter has a Reaction of _18_ on the physical plane, and its
> skill in Combat is the same as its Reaction. That's 18!

Hmmm.... The +10 to reaction is only for calculating initiative... To
determine the skill rating, you should only use twice the force as
reaction... (IMHO, but makes sense, doesn't it?)

> So you have a guy with (again, for discussion's sake) an AK-97 with,
> we'll say, explosive ammo. So, he's doing 9M per round. Let's say he
> fires 9 rounds at the bug (damage: 18D, by the book). For discussion's
> sake, let's say he hits. All right, 4 points of armor, plus 8 points from
> Immunity to Normal Weapons (unless you also assume they cannot manifest:)
> makes that 6D Ant-boy now has 9 dice (Body plus Threat rating) to resist.
> He'll take damage, but he should survive, I would think:)

How would he survive? If the attacking character has 1 success, the
average 1,5 successes the Spirit is likely to score will stage the
damage level to...... D. If the attacking character has more
successes than 1, the spirit is toast...

> -Canthros

ss

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:35:34 +0100

Message no. 16 > Actually what it's implying IMHO is that Queens/Mothers have the
> immunity to normal weapons per a Free Spirit's power. In other words,
> immunity to all mundane weaponry (swords, clubs, guns, bows, etc.)
>
> Whereas the other true forms only getting INW against ranged combat,
> as is normal with the manifestation power.
>
> Make sense?

No. ;) (yes, me again...)

> Loki

IMHO, attacks with melee weapons against any kind of spirit except
flesh forms of insect spirits should be resolved by
rolling willpower instead of uac, if the attacker is no
physad with killing hands. And all spirits in manifest form
should have ITNW, which gives them twice their force as hardened
armor against ranged attacks only.
(We could restart the discussion about how hardened armor works, now
that I've mentioned it..)

I don't think there are actually two forms of the ITNW power... One
for the queens and one for the rest.

ss

From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:47:49 -0600

Message no. 17 At 09:00 7/23/97 +0100, you wrote:
>> When you're dealing with the average sammy (Srength 8+,
>> willpower 3-4),
>
>Why would a sammy have a willpower that low? He'd be wiped out by any
>mage in fractions of a second... A willpower of 6 is standard for all
>the sammies in my team as well as for all the sammies I ever thought
>of as npc's...

In your game.
We've had this discussion before, but I feel compelled to point out that 6
is the maximum willpower for 3 races, and the other two races have a
maximum of 5 and 7.
Therefore... a willpower of 6 would not be 'standard', but closer to
'exceptional', or 'HolyShit!'
And don't forget, in that 'fraction of a second', the sammy likely acts at
least once before the mage does.

-Adam
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
GC3.1 GO d-- s--:-- a--- C++++ UL+ P+ L+@ E? W-- N++ o? K- w O- M- V-- PS+
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From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:12:23 -0400

Message no. 18 At 09:00 AM 7/23/97 +0100, Simon T. Sailer wrote these timeless words:
>> When you're dealing with the average sammy (Srength 8+,
>> willpower 3-4),
>
>Why would a sammy have a willpower that low? He'd be wiped out by any
>mage in fractions of a second... A willpower of 6 is standard for all
>the sammies in my team as well as for all the sammies I ever thought
>of as npc's... A samurai has to be able to fight in the front line,
>and has to take the risk of catching bullets as well as mana
>spells...
>
Yeah, but A) you're number crunching, which isn;t always a good things,
and B) If a Sammy DOESN'T put most of his Attribute points into Body,
Quickenss and Intelligence, he's lunch meat in a pgysical fight.

Sammies are not designed to take out mages, they're designed to deal with
mudnae threats...

The teams Wizard is there to deal with magical threats...

Rarely will you find a Sammy with a starting WP of more than 3, if that.
It's not really part of the character type.

Of course, this isn't true for EVERY sammy, but... How many 6's can you
have in a character, unless you're talking a high level character, in which
case it's a whole different ballgame anyways, and he should be fighting
something bigger than a force 4 bug spirit :]

>> this can be a HUGE difference, when suddenly the force 8
>> you're fighting is takeing 4M damamge instead of 10M, and has 8 points of
>> armor, making it's resistance role effectively a 2 (Of course, it would
>> have been a 2 anyways, but you get the point.)
>
>Isn't the ItNW supposed to give hardened armor? so the attack would
>not harm the spirit anyway.
>
<shrug>

Got me... I converted this from 1st edition, and in 1st ed. armor gave
automatic resistance results, rather than reducing the TN, so no clue.
There was no (IIRC) hardend armor in 1st ed.

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:54:22 +0100

Message no. 19 John E Pederson said on 16:57/22 Jul 97...

> Okay, for the sake of discussion: Ant Spirit Soldier, True Form, Force
> Four. Said critter has a Reaction of _18_ on the physical plane, and its
> skill in Combat is the same as its Reaction. That's 18!

Not quite true. They have a Reaction of 8, and get a +10 to initiative;
those are two separate things.

> So you have a guy with (again, for discussion's sake) an AK-97 with,
> we'll say, explosive ammo. So, he's doing 9M per round. Let's say he
> fires 9 rounds at the bug (damage: 18D, by the book). For discussion's
> sake, let's say he hits. All right, 4 points of armor, plus 8 points from
> Immunity to Normal Weapons (unless you also assume they cannot manifest:)
> makes that 6D Ant-boy now has 9 dice (Body plus Threat rating) to resist.
> He'll take damage, but he should survive, I would think:)

I give anyone with higher armor than the attack's Power an extra die for
every 2 points of difference, that makes many insect spirits even more
long-lived against firearms...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Rudely awakened by the telephone.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:54:22 +0100

Message no. 20 Simon T. Sailer said on 9:35/23 Jul 97...

> I don't think there are actually two forms of the ITNW power... One
> for the queens and one for the rest.

Yes, there are two forms. One is called ITNW, the other is called
Manifestation. The former works against ALL attacks except magical ones,
the second only against ranged attacks. I suggest you read the
descriptions of the powers again...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Rudely awakened by the telephone.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:54:22 +0100

Message no. 21 Jonathan Hurley said on 0:28/23 Jul 97...

> Grimoire pp103-107
>
> None of the true form spirits have Immunity to Normal Weapons listed under
> powers, except for the queens. Most of them have some sort of (critter
> power) armor(the number after the slash under Body,) but none of them have
> ItNW.
>
> I was shocked as well.
>
> Not that ItNW will help against an attack of 13-15 power level....

I think the point around which all this revolves is a misconception that
Manifestation grants Immunity to Normal Weapons power. It doesn't. It
gives a _limited_ form of ItNW, only effective against ranged attacks. The
full ItNW power also covers melee weapons and unarmed attacks, so
attacking an insect spirit queen with a club is even more stupid than
shootin at her with a rifle.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Rudely awakened by the telephone.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:54:22 +0100

Message no. 22 Jonathan Hurley said on 13:39/22 Jul 97...

> As my players have learned, an assault rifle in FA mode tends to put bugs
> down crunchy. (course, at 6-9 rounds of ammo per bug, they'd better be
> carrying a few extra clips, and I penalize firearm use in close combat.)
> Bugs *don't* have immunity to normal weapons as printed.

It's a bit strange... The Grimoire doesn't mention that they have
Manifestation power, but technically they should have -- else they can't
pop into the physical plane from the astral and back. Manifestation
automaticaly includes armor against ranged attacks, so I give that to true
form insect spirits.

BTW, nature spirits don't have Manifestation power either, according to
the critter table in SRII.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Rudely awakened by the telephone.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:02:33 -0500

Message no. 23 You wrote:
> losthalo (under the guise of 'Wendy Wanders':) wrote:
<sssssnip>

> Perhaps. Unfortunately, it also doesn't list them as having the power of
> manifestation, so, by that reason, they shouldn't be able to manifest,
> either:) And, if they have manifestation, they must also have Immunity to
> Normal Weapons (SR2, p219). And therein lies the problem, I suppose:)
Then perhaps it is merely assumed that they have MAnifest, and by association
INW.

losthalo (Wendy's other personality??)

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:11:12 EST

Message no. 24 > average sammy (Srength 8+, wilppower 3-4), this can be a HUGE
> difference, when suddenly the force 8 you're fighting is takeing 4M
> damamge instead of 10M, and has 8 points of armor, making it's
> resistance role effectively a 2 (Of course, it would have been a 2

Actually I think (awakenings will back me up) that the Willpower is
used for SKILL, but that Strength is still used for the weapons.

Also, Am I wrong in recalling that most Bug spirits Threat ratings
were something like Force/4??!?!?!?!!

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:51:27 EDT

Message no. 25 On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:02:33 -0500 "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117"
<KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:

>Then perhaps it is merely assumed that they have MAnifest, and by
>association
>INW.

That would be my assumption.

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:51:26 EDT

Message no. 26 Loki wrote
<<Actually what it's implying IMHO is that Queens/Mothers have the
immunity to normal weapons per a Free Spirit's power. In other words,
immunity to all mundane weaponry (swords, clubs, guns, bows, etc.)
Whereas the other true forms only getting INW against ranged combat, as
is normal with the manifestation power.

Make sense?>>

(Meant to reply when I saw this and hit the delete key before I could)
Yes, and it makes tangling with a queen some seriously scary sh!t,
doesn't it. <EGMG> :)

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:51:27 EDT

Message no. 27 On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:54:22 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

>Not quite true. They have a Reaction of 8, and get a +10 to
>initiative;
>those are two separate things.

<sheepish grin> This is what I get for not closely reading my books, I
guess. You're right, that's exactly the way it's listed in the Grimmy,
Bug City, though it's not exactly what is stated in the BBB, hence my
confusion.

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:51:26 EDT

Message no. 28 On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:18:54 +0100 "Simon T. Sailer"
<Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT> writes:

>Hmmm.... The +10 to reaction is only for calculating initiative... To
>determine the skill rating, you should only use twice the force as
>reaction... (IMHO, but makes sense, doesn't it?)

Actually, you're right, but my confusion stems from the section on Spirit
Initiative where it says that a spirit has a reaction equal to the base
reaction for that spirit PLUS ten while physically manifest. It doesn't
actually say that this only applies for initiative (something it does
state in the bug descriptions in the Grimmy and Bug City [stupid tables])

>How would he survive? If the attacking character has 1 success, the
>average 1,5 successes the Spirit is likely to score will stage the
>damage level to...... D. If the attacking character has more
>successes than 1, the spirit is toast...

I doubt the attacker would have much more than one success, in this case
anyway (no recoil comp, so +9 recoil mod, no combat pool, willpower only
- not too good for metal-boy, eh?) Even so, I just test-rolled some dice
(not having either a dice-rolling program or a probabilities table to
consult) and came up with four successes from 9 dice. He'd live. He
wouldn't be in real great shape, but he also heals a box of damage every
minute he's not in battle (ala an elemental:), right?

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:06:26 -0400

Message no. 29 On Wednesday, July 23, 1997 01:32, Justin Pinnow[SMTP:vanyel@*******.NET]
wrote:
> > From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
> > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 12:28 AM

> > Not that ItNW will help against an attack of 13-15 power level....
>
> Actually, it will help quite a bit. If you are fighting a force 5 true
> form, that would reduce the power level to 3-5. Apply standard armor to
> that and voila...almost no power left, if anything. Whatever is left
will
> be exceedingly easy to shake off. Big difference.

See, I'd give them one but not the other (as their "armor" is based on
their force.) If fact, the last time I ran my party against bugs, I *did*
give them ItNW, and it did help. (The entire team was captured in ~2 rounds
of combat (I love paralyzing tough.) But the PCs with assault rifles (one
with a firearms 8) did kill a few. Then the bugs got into HtH and it was
all over.

(in Re: firearms 8, the PC was a SpecFor sniper before he went into the
shadows, and still spends a *lot* of time keeping his edge (and quite
frankly, I don't run that much combat anymore.))

Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)

From:	Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:12:23 -0400

Message no. 30 > From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
> Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 11:11 AM

> > average sammy (Srength 8+, wilppower 3-4), this can be a HUGE
> > difference, when suddenly the force 8 you're fighting is takeing 4M
> > damamge instead of 10M, and has 8 points of armor, making it's
> > resistance role effectively a 2 (Of course, it would have been a 2

> Actually I think (awakenings will back me up) that the Willpower is
> used for SKILL, but that Strength is still used for the weapons.

You are correct, Brett. Strength still affects the damage code of the
weapon. Thus, keep the original damage code. However, don't forget about
the natural armor that True Forms have. Subtract that from the force of
the attack and then resist what's left (if anything).

> Also, Am I wrong in recalling that most Bug spirits Threat ratings
> were something like Force/4??!?!?!?!!

I highly doubt that. As I just stated in my last e-mail, I believe the
Threat Rating is equal to the spirit's Force, but I could be wrong and I
don't know if this varies for the Queen, etc. I can't find this in writing
anywhere.

Fasa, please clean up the Spirit stuff. Please. :)

Justin :)

From:	Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:19:12 -0400

Message no. 31 On Wednesday, July 23, 1997 04:35, Simon T.
> IMHO, attacks with melee weapons against any kind of spirit except
> flesh forms of insect spirits should be resolved by
> rolling willpower instead of uac, if the attacker is no
> physad with killing hands. And all spirits in manifest form
> should have ITNW, which gives them twice their force as hardened
> armor against ranged attacks only.
> (We could restart the discussion about how hardened armor works, now
> that I've mentioned it..)

Excuse me? HARDENED ARMOR? I don't think so. PAoE doesn't mention anything
of the kind (though, interestingly enough, it gives the critter
auto-successes against elemental-affect damage... (?)) Neither does PAoNA.
Neither does the BBB. (PAoE has precedence over the BBB, as it 1) came out
later, and 2) says so.)

Besides, true form insect spirits don't need armor beyond what they've got
in their stats (typically equal to their force or so.) *THEY OUTNUMBER THE
PCS.* Works much better for me. Sure, it means that a decently equipped PC
can kill a bug on his/her action with a firearm. But once they get into HtH
and the enemies in melee penalty starts to kick in.... It's goodbye PCs.

Think about bugs. Do you see one kick-ass bug, or a lot of smaller ones all
swarming their target. Re-read _Burning_Bright_. The K-E team going into
the hive crunched a *huge* number of bugs (mainly with shotguns and FA
weapons) and they still died, because they couldn't kill bugs *fast
enough.* There is a hive in a certain SR module with 300(!) bugs spirits in
it (IIRC). The PC's should never see one bug. There should be at least 9
more hiding around.

Oh, and ItNW doesn't work against a certain kind of ranged weapon, bows.
(Not x-bows, thought.)
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:21:59 EDT

Message no. 32 On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:11:12 EST Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:

>Also, Am I wrong in recalling that most Bug spirits Threat ratings
>were something like Force/4??!?!?!?!!

Oh, boy. I remember the last time we had this discussion with Brian
Allison:) What it says is Threat/Professional Rating: Force/4, which is
interpreted as Threat Rating=Force, Professional Rating=4.

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:06:20 -0700

Message no. 33 ---Brett Borger wrote:
>
> Also, Am I wrong in recalling that most Bug spirits Threat ratings
> were something like Force/4??!?!?!?!!

Actually I believe that listing is in the format of
threat/professional ratings. So the spirit's threat rating would be
equal to force, and their professional rating is 4 (meaning a fight to
the death).

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:13:11 EST

Message no. 34 > >Also, Am I wrong in recalling that most Bug spirits Threat ratings
> >were something like Force/4??!?!?!?!!
> Oh, boy. I remember the last time we had this discussion with Brian
> Allison:) What it says is Threat/Professional Rating: Force/4, which
> is interpreted as Threat Rating=Force, Professional Rating=4.

AH HA!!!! THank YOU! This makes life much more interesting!

<EGMG>

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:38:19 -0700

Message no. 35 ---"Simon T. Sailer" wrote:
>
> I don't think there are actually two forms of the ITNW power... One
> for the queens and one for the rest.

They are two seperate and distinct powers.

BBB, page 218, lists Immunity to Normal Weapons as a power and states:
"This power gives a being an armor rating equal tp double its Essence
when resisting damage from ordinary weapons. Against elemental damage,
the effect is halved." This would included ranged, melee, and all
other mundane attacks.

BBB, page 219, details manifestation as a powers and states: "In
addition, manifested spirits have the power of immunity to normal
weapons against ranged combat attacks, for these do not carry the full
'charge' of the attacker's will. Against such attacks, spirits have
'armor' equal to twice their force."

You'll find likewise descriptions of both powers in PAoNA and PAoE.

Grimmy also shows the varied forms of a Free Spirit (Animal Form,
Human Form, and Hidden Life) as having Immunity to Normal weapons, and
references to page 218 of the BBB. This power is above and beyond the
immunity to ranged attacks that comes with Manifestation.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign

_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:09:55 -0700

Message no. 36 ---Jonathan Hurley wrote:
>
>
> Oh, and ItNW doesn't work against a certain kind of ranged weapon,
bows.
> (Not x-bows, thought.)

Actually ITNW as a power works against all mundane attacks (fist,
sword, club, gun, bow, etc.). The limited form of ITNW that comes with
Manifestion, however, works as you've described.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign

_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:00:15 +1000

Message no. 37 > >Why would a sammy have a willpower that low? He'd be wiped out by any
> >mage in fractions of a second... A willpower of 6 is standard for all
> >the sammies in my team as well as for all the sammies I ever thought
> >of as npc's...

Let's not get into THIS thread AGAIN, please? The flames have only just
died down from the last time...

> Therefore... a willpower of 6 would not be 'standard', but closer to
> 'exceptional', or 'HolyShit!'

Agreed... I've played MAGES with lower willpower than that. Admittedly,
they got headaches more often, but hey... :)

The point is, be fair to your GM. A sammy has to have SOME weakness,
else the GM has to throw so much at your party to hurt it that all the
other team members will go down even quicke. My standard rule is "Don't
bother shooting a sammy, don't bother tossing spells at a mage"

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:37:23 +0100

Message no. 38 > Yeah, but A) you're number crunching, which isn;t always a good things,
> and B) If a Sammy DOESN'T put most of his Attribute points into Body,
> Quickenss and Intelligence, he's lunch meat in a pgysical fight.
>
> Sammies are not designed to take out mages, they're designed to deal with
> mudnae threats...

Imho, they are designed to fight. To fight whichever opposition,
magical, spirits, mundanes, vehicles, critters, whatever.

> The teams Wizard is there to deal with magical threats...
>
> Rarely will you find a Sammy with a starting WP of more than 3, if that.
> It's not really part of the character type.

different games, different characters, but as I see the sammi, all of
the attributes are part of the character type. Sammies are in
extremely good physical and psychical shape... and are a bit weak
with the skills. with other characters, it's the other way round.
"strong, stupid samurai" and "intelligent, weak decker" is totally
against the way I see shadowrun. Sr has the most flexible character
generation system I know.

> Of course, this isn't true for EVERY sammy, but... How many 6's can you
> have in a character, unless you're talking a high level character, in which
> case it's a whole different ballgame anyways, and he should be fighting
> something bigger than a force 4 bug spirit :]

*Grin* of course you can't have too many attributes at level 6 at the
beginning, but willpower and body have first priority as far as I am
concerned. The cyber and bioware will take care of the other
attributes.

> Bull

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:17:07 +0100

Message no. 39 > >How would he survive? If the attacking character has 1 success, the
> >average 1,5 successes the Spirit is likely to score will stage the
> >damage level to...... D. If the attacking character has more
> >successes than 1, the spirit is toast...
>
> I doubt the attacker would have much more than one success, in this case
> anyway (no recoil comp, so +9 recoil mod, no combat pool, willpower only
> - not too good for metal-boy, eh?) Even so, I just test-rolled some dice
> (not having either a dice-rolling program or a probabilities table to
> consult) and came up with four successes from 9 dice. He'd live. He
> wouldn't be in real great shape, but he also heals a box of damage every
> minute he's not in battle (ala an elemental:), right?
>
> -Canthros

Well, if you rolled 4 sixes with 9 dice.... *grin* can you do it
again?
On an average roll, you will get 1 or two successes, and the spirit
takes deadly damage.

ss (who loves number-juggling ;)

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:35:31 +0100

Message no. 40 > They are two seperate and distinct powers.
>
> BBB, page 218, lists Immunity to Normal Weapons as a power and states:
> "This power gives a being an armor rating equal tp double its Essence
> when resisting damage from ordinary weapons. Against elemental damage,
> the effect is halved." This would included ranged, melee, and all
> other mundane attacks.

I see... so I was wrong again... I love this list... people find
all my mistakes... And that's the only way to improve, isn't it?

Would this power work against melee attacks If the attacker uses the
willpower instead of the skill?

> You'll find likewise descriptions of both powers in PAoNA and PAoE.
>
> Grimmy also shows the varied forms of a Free Spirit (Animal Form,
> Human Form, and Hidden Life) as having Immunity to Normal weapons, and
> references to page 218 of the BBB. This power is above and beyond the
> immunity to ranged attacks that comes with Manifestation.
>
> Loki

Loads of thanks

ss

From:	Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:37:29 -0400

Message no. 41 > From: Simon T. Sailer <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
> Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 4:35 AM

> > They are two seperate and distinct powers.

> > BBB, page 218, lists Immunity to Normal Weapons as a power and states:
> > "This power gives a being an armor rating equal tp double its Essence
> > when resisting damage from ordinary weapons. Against elemental damage,
> > the effect is halved." This would included ranged, melee, and all
> > other mundane attacks.

> I see... so I was wrong again... I love this list... people find
> all my mistakes... And that's the only way to improve, isn't it?

Yep. Learn from your (and everyone else's) mistakes. :)

> Would this power work against melee attacks If the attacker uses the
> willpower instead of the skill?

Well, the attacker MUST use Willpower in place of his skill when attacking
a Spirit. Thus, yes, it does affect the attacker in melee (assuming it's
the all-encompassing version of the power).

> > You'll find likewise descriptions of both powers in PAoNA and PAoE.
> >
> > Grimmy also shows the varied forms of a Free Spirit (Animal Form,
> > Human Form, and Hidden Life) as having Immunity to Normal weapons, and
> > references to page 218 of the BBB. This power is above and beyond the
> > immunity to ranged attacks that comes with Manifestation.
> >
> > Loki
>
> Loads of thanks
>
> ss

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:55:26 +0100

Message no. 42 > In your game.
> We've had this discussion before, but I feel compelled to point out that 6
> is the maximum willpower for 3 races, and the other two races have a
> maximum of 5 and 7.
> Therefore... a willpower of 6 would not be 'standard', but closer to
> 'exceptional', or 'HolyShit!'
> And don't forget, in that 'fraction of a second', the sammy likely acts at
> least once before the mage does.
>
> -Adam

True indeed. It's a old topic...
Sorry.

ss

From:	"Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:01:36 +0100

Message no. 43 > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:37:29 -0400

> > Would this power work against melee attacks If the attacker uses the
> > willpower instead of the skill?
>
> Well, the attacker MUST use Willpower in place of his skill when attacking
> a Spirit. Thus, yes, it does affect the attacker in melee (assuming it's
> the all-encompassing version of the power).

So the attacker has to use the wilpower AND the spirit gets twice his
level as armor? But this would render nearly all spirits unbeatable
by mundanes... (EGMLOL)
cool..

ss

From:	Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:16:46 -0400

Message no. 44 > From: Simon T. Sailer <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
> Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 5:01 AM

> > > Would this power work against melee attacks If the attacker uses the
> > > willpower instead of the skill?

> > Well, the attacker MUST use Willpower in place of his skill when
attacking
> > a Spirit. Thus, yes, it does affect the attacker in melee (assuming
it's
> > the all-encompassing version of the power).

> So the attacker has to use the wilpower AND the spirit gets twice his
> level as armor? But this would render nearly all spirits unbeatable
> by mundanes... (EGMLOL)

Well, this certainly supports the standpoint that spirits should be hard to
defeat by mundanes. After all, spirits are magical constructs, thus the
best attack methods would involve magic (just like when defending against a
spell, spell defense is a definite advantage). Spirits are not from this
realm. They should be considered as "foreign" and should be respected and
perhaps feared because of this, IMO. IMO, without a Magical Theory skill,
you don't know anything about them and shouldn't know how best to defeat
them, either.

Bug Spirits are just plain rude, when it comes to combat. They are even
worse than Elementals. True Forms are especially harsh. Use them wisely.
;)

> cool..

Muwahaha! :)

>
> ss

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:57:55 +0100

Message no. 45 Brett Borger said on 10:11/23 Jul 97...

> Also, Am I wrong in recalling that most Bug spirits Threat ratings
> were something like Force/4??!?!?!?!!

Yes, but that doesn't mean "Force divided by 4." It says
"Threat/Professional Rating: Force/4" which indicates that the spirit has
a Threat Rating (i.e. extra dice) equal to its Force, and a Professional
Rating of 4 (i.e. it fights until it's dead).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Rudely awakened by the telephone.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:47:45 +0100

Message no. 46 Simon T. Sailer said on 9:35/24 Jul 97...

> Would this power work against melee attacks If the attacker uses the
> willpower instead of the skill?

You HAVE to use Willpower instead of your skill, unless you have access to
things a weapon focus (presumably that must be bonded to you, although
SRII fails to mention that) or something that attacks the spirit's
Vulnerability weakness (for example, using a flamethrower on a water
elemental).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Rudely awakened by the telephone.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:51:51 EDT

Message no. 47 On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:17:07 +0100 "Simon T. Sailer"
<Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT> writes:

>Well, if you rolled 4 sixes with 9 dice.... *grin* can you do it
>again?
>On an average roll, you will get 1 or two successes, and the spirit
>takes deadly damage.

Yes, and on an average roll, the sammie wouldn't have hit the broad side
of a very large barn with that full auto burst (the sammie's TN would
have been at least 13, 12 or 11 with a laser sight or smartlink,
respectively).

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:52:32 +1000

Message no. 48 > You HAVE to use Willpower instead of your skill, unless you have access to
> things a weapon focus (presumably that must be bonded to you, although
> SRII fails to mention that) or something that attacks the spirit's
> Vulnerability weakness (for example, using a flamethrower on a water
> elemental).

... or a baseball bat covered with insecticide... that's the only way we
lived through bug city.

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:05:16 -0400

Message no. 49 > From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
> Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 5:52 PM

> > You HAVE to use Willpower instead of your skill, unless you have access
to
> > things a weapon focus (presumably that must be bonded to you, although
> > SRII fails to mention that) or something that attacks the spirit's
> > Vulnerability weakness (for example, using a flamethrower on a water
> > elemental).

> ... or a baseball bat covered with insecticide... that's the only way we
> lived through bug city.

Well, not all bugs are effected by insecticides....

> Lady Jestyr

Justin :)

From:	Deosyne <deosyne@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
Date:	Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:21:16 -0400

Message no. 50 Lady Jestyr wrote:
>
> > You HAVE to use Willpower instead of your skill, unless you have access to
> > things a weapon focus (presumably that must be bonded to you, although
> > SRII fails to mention that) or something that attacks the spirit's
> > Vulnerability weakness (for example, using a flamethrower on a water
> > elemental).
>
> ... or a baseball bat covered with insecticide... that's the only way we
> lived through bug city.
>
> Lady Jestyr
>

My players in a Bug City campaign coated themselves in DEET (a no
bullshit bug repellant) during a hive attack. Had to give em the target
# mods for that; I failed to consider the idea myself :/ Gotta watch
them players, I swear! :)

Deosyne

Message no. 51 Lady Jestyr said on 7:52/25 Jul 97...

> > You HAVE to use Willpower instead of your skill, unless you have access to
> > things a weapon focus (presumably that must be bonded to you, although
> > SRII fails to mention that) or something that attacks the spirit's
> > Vulnerability weakness (for example, using a flamethrower on a water
> > elemental).
>
> ... or a baseball bat covered with insecticide... that's the only way we
> lived through bug city.

My players never did think of the simple fact that insects might be
vulnerable to insecticides (though now I've said it on the list, I'm
pretty sure at least one of them will think of it next time they encounter
a bucnh of bugs... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And you can try and you just might...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 52 Gurth writes
> > ... or a baseball bat covered with insecticide... that's the only way we
> > lived through bug city.
>
> My players never did think of the simple fact that insects might be
> vulnerable to insecticides (though now I've said it on the list, I'm
> pretty sure at least one of them will think of it next time they encounter
> a bucnh of bugs... :)
>
Lucky you.

I gave up on bugs, the PC's insecticide useage was starting to find
things they fall for in style, it was either use force 20+ bugs to
survive the clever attacks with S wounds and cleave all the PC's to
bits the moment an unhurt one made melee or allow whole scale
slaughter (these folks killed a force 10 spirit energy 5 queen and
were reaching the stage where when someone got it right force tens
were target practice, another couple of fights and i would have been
for it!). When it came to a hive they just hijacked a whole tanker of
insecticide and rammed the thing!

It's not fair!!!!

Still they now have Triad, Mob and Yak problems :) and they don't
fall for that :) muh ha ha.

Mark

Message no. 53 On Wednesday, July 23, 1997 19:09, Loki[SMTP:daddyjim@**********.COM]
wrote:
> ---Jonathan Hurley wrote:
> >
> >
> > Oh, and ItNW doesn't work against a certain kind of ranged weapon,
> bows.
> > (Not x-bows, thought.)
>
> Actually ITNW as a power works against all mundane attacks (fist,
> sword, club, gun, bow, etc.). The limited form of ITNW that comes with
> Manifestation, however, works as you've described.
>

Ahah. Thank you for that clarification. I don't think I've ever put the PCs
up against anything with immunity to normal weapons, just manifestation,
and that's why I thought that.

Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)

Message no. 54 On Thursday, July 24, 1997 10:51, John E Pederson[SMTP:lobo1@****.COM]
wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:17:07 +0100 "Simon T. Sailer"
> <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT> writes:
>
> >Well, if you rolled 4 sixes with 9 dice.... *grin* can you do it
> >again?
> >On an average roll, you will get 1 or two successes, and the spirit
> >takes deadly damage.
>
>
> Yes, and on an average roll, the sammie wouldn't have hit the broad side
> of a very large barn with that full auto burst (the sammie's TN would
> have been at least 13, 12 or 11 with a laser sight or smartlink,
> respectively).

Oh, I dunno. Example: Snapshot (a PC) honks off a nine-round burst at a
target. He's using an Ares Alpha combat gun(Two points recoil comp) with a
shock pad (another point.) He's got a strength of 7 (another 2 points (FoF
p83) for a grand reduction of 5, bringing his target number (at close
range, with his smartgun link) to 6. Not bad at all, all things considered.
If he was using a weapon with IGV4, he'd be looking at 4's for a target
number. Because of the way the Ares Alpha description is worded, he could
*add* the IGV4 to the weapon and get his TN down to 2. (The weapon offers 2
points of recoil comp, *and* can take barrel mounted accessories. Now I see
why this weapon is so hard to get.)

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)

Message no. 55 > From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
> Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 2:43 PM

> On Thursday, July 24, 1997 10:51, John E Pederson[SMTP:lobo1@****.COM]
> wrote:

> > On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:17:07 +0100 "Simon T. Sailer"
> > <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT> writes:

> > >Well, if you rolled 4 sixes with 9 dice.... *grin* can you do it
> > >again?
> > >On an average roll, you will get 1 or two successes, and the spirit
> > >takes deadly damage.

> > Yes, and on an average roll, the sammie wouldn't have hit the broad
side
> > of a very large barn with that full auto burst (the sammie's TN would
> > have been at least 13, 12 or 11 with a laser sight or smartlink,
> > respectively).

> Oh, I dunno. Example: Snapshot (a PC) honks off a nine-round burst at a
> target. He's using an Ares Alpha combat gun(Two points recoil comp) with
a
> shock pad (another point.) He's got a strength of 7 (another 2 points
(FoF
> p83) for a grand reduction of 5, bringing his target number (at close
> range, with his smartgun link) to 6. Not bad at all, all things
considered.

Well, gee. Don't forget that it can be dark in those underground hives,
incurring vision modifiers. Is the sammie walking or running? How about
the bugs, are they moving too? All these things need to be kept in mind
when assigning TNs. That's why gun battles take awhile...lots of lead that
doesn't hit anything. This also makes spell casting more deadly (many of
these mods don't apply to spellcasting, except for DMs).

<Snip>

> Quicksilver rides again

Justin :)

Message no. 56 Mark Steedman said on 14:31/25 Jul 97...

> I gave up on bugs, the PC's insecticide useage was starting to find
> things they fall for in style, it was either use force 20+ bugs to
> survive the clever attacks with S wounds and cleave all the PC's to
> bits the moment an unhurt one made melee or allow whole scale
> slaughter (these folks killed a force 10 spirit energy 5 queen and
> were reaching the stage where when someone got it right force tens
> were target practice, another couple of fights and i would have been
> for it!). When it came to a hive they just hijacked a whole tanker of
> insecticide and rammed the thing!

When things get that far, I think it's either time to make a new enemy, or
start a new campaign depending on whether the players want to keep
playing their current characters.

> It's not fair!!!!

I have this slight problem that the guy whose right leg got removed in two
different games when I was GMing is about to run an adventure for our
group... I'm thinking about bringing my body armor to the next session :)

> Still they now have Triad, Mob and Yak problems :) and they don't
> fall for that :) muh ha ha.

Two of my three players are currently in hospital with Deadly wounds, and
I think I'll have someone make them an offer they can't refuse...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And you can try and you just might...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 57 At 02:45 PM 7/25/97 -0400, Justin wrote:
>Well, gee. Don't forget that it can be dark in those underground hives,
>incurring vision modifiers. Is the sammie walking or running? How about
>the bugs, are they moving too? All these things need to be kept in mind
>when assigning TNs. That's why gun battles take awhile...lots of lead that
>doesn't hit anything. This also makes spell casting more deadly (many of
>these mods don't apply to spellcasting, except for DMs).

S'why I would never fire full-auto unless I wanted to use cover-fire rules.
Use the first cimple action to aim, the second to fire a three-round burst.
Keeps target numbers VERY low and does damage through increased successes
rather than obscenely high power. I never did understand why people liked
using more than one simple action for firing each round...

But that is neither here nor there... I've missed a great deal of this
thread and I was wondering what this had to do with unarmed combat?
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net

Message no. 58 On Friday, July 25, 1997 14:45, Justin Pinnow[SMTP:vanyel@*******.NET]
wrote:
> > From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
> > To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> > Subject: Re: the uac dilemma (minor insect spirit spoilers!)
> > Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 2:43 PM
>
> > On Thursday, July 24, 1997 10:51, John E Pederson[SMTP:lobo1@****.COM]
> > wrote:
> > Oh, I dunno. Example: Snapshot (a PC) honks off a nine-round burst at a
> > target. He's using an Ares Alpha combat gun(Two points recoil comp)
with
> a
> > shock pad (another point.) He's got a strength of 7 (another 2 points
> (FoF
> > p83) for a grand reduction of 5, bringing his target number (at close
> > range, with his smartgun link) to 6. Not bad at all, all things
> considered.
>
> Well, gee. Don't forget that it can be dark in those underground hives,
> incurring vision modifiers. Is the sammie walking or running? How about
> the bugs, are they moving too? All these things need to be kept in mind
> when assigning TNs. That's why gun battles take awhile...lots of lead
that
> doesn't hit anything. This also makes spell casting more deadly (many of
> these mods don't apply to spellcasting, except for DMs).

No kidding. But my point is that all of the recoil has been canceled, by
stuff that only cancels recoil. Those other modifiers apply to ranged
combat whether or not you're firing 1 bullet or 10.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)

Message no. 59 > From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
> Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 3:25 PM
>
> On Friday, July 25, 1997 14:45, Justin Pinnow[SMTP:vanyel@*******.NET]
> wrote:

> > > From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
> > > Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 2:43 PM

> > Well, gee. Don't forget that it can be dark in those underground
hives,
> > incurring vision modifiers. Is the sammie walking or running? How
about
> > the bugs, are they moving too? All these things need to be kept in
mind
> > when assigning TNs. That's why gun battles take awhile...lots of lead
> that
> > doesn't hit anything. This also makes spell casting more deadly (many
of
> > these mods don't apply to spellcasting, except for DMs).

> No kidding. But my point is that all of the recoil has been canceled, by
> stuff that only cancels recoil. Those other modifiers apply to ranged
> combat whether or not you're firing 1 bullet or 10.

Okay. The point I am trying to make is that you got the TN down to a 6
before any of these other modifiers were applied. The point you made about
it being easy to hit in such a case just isn't true. That's why I brought
up the other modifiers, and they didn't even include cover mods. You will
be looking at TNs from 8-16 after all these mods are applied...that's not
easy to do.

> --
> Quicksilver rides again

Justin :)

Message no. 60 On Friday, July 25, 1997 15:27, Justin Pinnow[SMTP:vanyel@*******.NET]
wrote:
> > From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>

> > No kidding. But my point is that all of the recoil has been canceled,
by
> > stuff that only cancels recoil. Those other modifiers apply to ranged
> > combat whether or not you're firing 1 bullet or 10.
>
> Okay. The point I am trying to make is that you got the TN down to a 6
> before any of these other modifiers were applied. The point you made
about
> it being easy to hit in such a case just isn't true. That's why I
brought
> up the other modifiers, and they didn't even include cover mods. You
will
> be looking at TNs from 8-16 after all these mods are applied...that's not
> easy to do.

I got the target number down to a 2! before other modifiers applied. (Ares
alpha has 2 points inherent recoil comp & can take barrel-mount
accessories, thus a IGV4 can be added. Add a shock pad and 7 strength to
completely negate the recoil, and a smartgun brings the TN to a 2.)

Now, admittedly, this is an extreme case (not too many weapon/accessory
combos can apply 7 points of recoil comp before strength) but with IGV4,
shock pads, and strength mods running around, even 6round aimed bursts are
possible without too much effort.

But that's not the point. Bugs are faster, and clean up in HtH. Charge the
guy. Sure he drops one, maybe two, before the bugs get there, but then he's
hosed.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)

Message no. 61 > > ... or a baseball bat covered with insecticide... that's the only way we
> > lived through bug city.
>
> My players in a Bug City campaign coated themselves in DEET (a no
> bullshit bug repellant) during a hive attack. Had to give em the target
> # mods for that; I failed to consider the idea myself :/ Gotta watch
> them players, I swear! :)

I hope you killed them shortly afterwards from nerve damage. Spraying
bug spray on weapons is one thing - you can spray it so thick it's
dripping off the weapon. i wouldn't want to spray the stuff on myself,
though - it's a rather nasty nerve toxin.

I also wouldn't say that the sort of insect spray intended for spraying
on yourself would hurt the bugs much - that's an insect REPELLANT. What
you need to hurt them is an INSECTICIDE. Chemically different, stronger,
and NOT the sort of thing I want to spray on myself.

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 62 Lady Jestyr wrote:
>
> > > ... or a baseball bat covered with insecticide... that's the only way we
> > > lived through bug city.
> >
> > My players in a Bug City campaign coated themselves in DEET (a no
> > bullshit bug repellant) during a hive attack. Had to give em the target
> > # mods for that; I failed to consider the idea myself :/ Gotta watch
> > them players, I swear! :)
>
> I hope you killed them shortly afterwards from nerve damage. Spraying
> bug spray on weapons is one thing - you can spray it so thick it's
> dripping off the weapon. i wouldn't want to spray the stuff on myself,
> though - it's a rather nasty nerve toxin.
Okay. Sure. Then how come I don't die using modren bug repellents? The
active ingrident in them these days IS DEET! Maybe we should step back
from a sec... If it's pure DEET, then yah. If it's a commercial product,
no.

--So first I get the Corbalist Crystal....
Kristling The Weird
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/5482/
kristlingweird@*********.com

Message no. 63 > From: Kristling the Weird <kristlingweird@*********.COM>
> Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 10:11 AM

> Lady Jestyr wrote:

> > I hope you killed them shortly afterwards from nerve damage. Spraying
> > bug spray on weapons is one thing - you can spray it so thick it's
> > dripping off the weapon. i wouldn't want to spray the stuff on myself,
> > though - it's a rather nasty nerve toxin.
> Okay. Sure. Then how come I don't die using modren bug repellents? The
> active ingrident in them these days IS DEET! Maybe we should step back
> from a sec... If it's pure DEET, then yah. If it's a commercial product,
> no.

My feeling has always been that Bugs are supposed to be hard to kill. Bugs
are supposed to be feared, even by veteran Shadowrunners. I think it's way
too easy to kill the Bugs if you treat them as having the Vulerability to
Insecticides as written in the rules. I would halve the effects of the
insecticide on them. Yes, they look a lot like giant bugs. However, they
are from another realm, thus it is easy to justify Insecticides not even
working on them at all.

But that's just an optional thing. Under the standard rules, it's easy to
kill them with insecticides.

> --So first I get the Corbalist Crystal....
> Kristling The Weird

Justin :)

Message no. 64 In message <33DA05AF.4F67@*********.com>, Kristling the Weird
<kristlingweird@*********.COM> writes
>Okay. Sure. Then how come I don't die using modren bug repellents? The
>active ingrident in them these days IS DEET! Maybe we should step back
>from a sec... If it's pure DEET, then yah. If it's a commercial product,
>no.

DEET is a repellent. It makes the insect think "Yuck!" and fly away: it
doesn't kill them. (Hateful memories of Scottish forest midges during an
Army exercise... each of us was the centre of a seething globe of black
specks, all landing on our repellent-soaked skins and then taking off
again, usually but not always without biting... none of the bastard
things seemed to be dying, though)

Your typical really effective insecticide (rather than a pyrethoid like
domestic flyspray) is an organophosphorous derivative: basically, nerve
gas. Dieldrin, for instance, is almost as toxic to humans as it is to
insects.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Message no. 65 >Dieldrin, for instance, is almost as toxic to
>humans as it is to insects.

There are insecticides that are completely
non-toxic to mammals, but they do that by being
specific to things like preventing the pupae stage
of developement..., not fast acting, and wont
harm an adult bug. Not the most useful stuff for
a bug hunt, but spraying it around the cocoon
room would force them to move out and build a
new hive (IMHO).

Message no. 66 > room would force them to move out and build a
> new hive (IMHO).

Not to mention hunting you down en masse.

Message no. 67 >> room would force them to move out and build
a
>> new hive (IMHO).
>
>Not to mention hunting you down en masse.

There is that. The bugs would be
rather...motivated <EGMG>

Double-Domed Mike

Message no. 68 Lady Jestyr wrote:
>
> > > ... or a baseball bat covered with insecticide... that's the only way we
> > > lived through bug city.
> >
> > My players in a Bug City campaign coated themselves in DEET (a no
> > bullshit bug repellant) during a hive attack. Had to give em the target
> > # mods for that; I failed to consider the idea myself :/ Gotta watch
> > them players, I swear! :)
>
> I hope you killed them shortly afterwards from nerve damage. Spraying
> bug spray on weapons is one thing - you can spray it so thick it's
> dripping off the weapon. i wouldn't want to spray the stuff on myself,
> though - it's a rather nasty nerve toxin.

DEET is a hardcore repellant, not insecticide. It was made to apply to
clothing and such. Bare skin isn't too bright as it may have side
effects (various studies have debated this point), but on clothing and
equipment, its fine.

>
> I also wouldn't say that the sort of insect spray intended for spraying
> on yourself would hurt the bugs much - that's an insect REPELLANT. What
> you need to hurt them is an INSECTICIDE. Chemically different, stronger,
> and NOT the sort of thing I want to spray on myself.

I didn't say it damaged the bugs; just distracted the everliving hell
out of them, especially up close or in an enclosed space; I gave 'em
target # mods, not damage.

>
> Lady Jestyr

Deosyne

Message no. 69 Mike Elkins wrote:
>
> >Dieldrin, for instance, is almost as toxic to
> >humans as it is to insects.
>
> There are insecticides that are completely
> non-toxic to mammals, but they do that by being
> specific to things like preventing the pupae stage
> of developement..., not fast acting, and wont
> harm an adult bug. Not the most useful stuff for
> a bug hunt, but spraying it around the cocoon
> room would force them to move out and build a
> new hive (IMHO).

Sounds like you're talking about Citronella-based repellants (non-toxic,
makes you smell like bad Kool-Aid). Not even strong enough to piss them
friggin' biting flies in the swamps off. Nah, I'd think you'd need
something as strong as 100% DEET to bother an insect spirit (and that's
all it'd do :)

Deosyne

Message no. 70 >Sounds like you're talking about
>Citronella-based repellants (non-toxic, makes
>you smell like bad Kool-Aid). Not even strong
>enough to piss them friggin' biting flies in the
>swamps off. Nah, I'd think you'd need
>something as strong as 100% DEET to bother
>an insect spirit (and that's all it'd do :)

No, I was talking about things like
Immadaznalone (sp?), which prevent little bugs
from every growing up. Because baby bugs
don't lay eggs, it can stop an infestation quite
well.

<spoiler space>

IMHO it would prevent a "merge" from
completing, although the spirit of the poor victim
would still be long dead. The queen would be left
with a brood chamber full of stillborns, and the
contamination could never be truly eliminated.
And of course, if the queen gets covered in it, it
could be months before she might be able to lay
a viable "egg".

Double-Domed Mike

Message no. 71 > There are insecticides that are completely
> non-toxic to mammals, but they do that by being
> specific to things like preventing the pupae stage
> of developement..., not fast acting, and wont
> harm an adult bug. Not the most useful stuff for
> a bug hunt, but spraying it around the cocoon
> room would force them to move out and build a
> new hive (IMHO).

-I think that the weakness of bugs to insecticides is mostly symbolic, so
strength is greatly amplified (citronella acts like tear gass, pesticides
might acutually hit like acid to the bugs (not how it works on real, but
appropriate)

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