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From:	lomion lomion@*********.escnd1.sdca.home.com
Subject:	the value of education[probably OT]
Date:	Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:57:51 -0700

Message no. 1 >
>Not really.
>Europe is still in the hands of it's rightful owners.

That a really big debate right there. There have been so many wars in
Europe, so much death and other events that that can be debated. The
anglos basially conquered engalnd are they they rightful owners or are the
original ppl who lived there? Rightful owners is one of those circular
arguments i think. How many invasions of countries happened in
europe? How about the gaul celts? Ceaser conquered it, but his losses
were massive, you could say they paid in blood. Can you really "own" land
anyway? Any event will mark a place i think, as for who owns the land
rightfully, i was born in the US, does the past history mean i don;t belong
even though it is the land of my birth?

Also the ghost dance was a form of blood magic, i think the aztech book
basically said that, also the first set of novels said that as well. What
they did was sacrifice their life energy, it's pretty hard to beat that
kind of sacrifice anywhere. I think that's what powered the magic, plus
the fact that no one knew what the hell magic really was at first besides a
few group, native americans among them.

--Lomion

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	the value of education[probably OT]
Date:	Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:51:09 +0200

Message no. 2 According to lomion, at 16:57 on 13 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> That a really big debate right there. There have been so many wars in
> Europe, so much death and other events that that can be debated. The
> anglos basially conquered engalnd are they they rightful owners or are the
> original ppl who lived there?

I feel the need to correct your history at this point :) Britain was
settled by Celts, who were conquered by the Romans, who in turn later
left. In the early centuries of our calendar came the Saxons, from western
Europe, who pushed the Celts back and settled what they called England.
Some Norsemen (Vikings) also settled in Britain at various points in
history, and then came the Normans (William the Conquerer, 1066, Battle of
Hastings, etc.) from -- what do you guess -- Normandy, France, who
actually were descendents of Scandinavians as well.

I probably left something out that the British listmembers will no doubt
correct me on :)

Anyway, this is fairly typical of European history, not just that of
Britain, and makes it impossible to say who a piece of land belongs to,
"historically." Sure, some people try to do that anyway (take a look at
Serbian nationalists, for a recent example) but that doesn't work anymore
today -- what matters nowadays is who a piece of land has belonged to in
the last few centuries.

> Rightful owners is one of those circular arguments i think.

Precisely.

> How many invasions of countries happened in europe?

I don't think you could ever find out the exact number. Thousands, is my
guess, but I have a feeling it's too low.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Cooking with the devil, frying down in hell.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject:	the value of education[probably OT]
Date:	Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:57:03 +1000

Message no. 3 Gurth writes:
> I feel the need to correct your history at this point :) Britain was
> settled by Celts, who were conquered by the Romans, who in turn later
> left. In the early centuries of our calendar came the Saxons,
> from western
> Europe, who pushed the Celts back and settled what they called England.
> Some Norsemen (Vikings) also settled in Britain at various points in
> history, and then came the Normans (William the Conquerer, 1066,
> Battle of
> Hastings, etc.) from -- what do you guess -- Normandy, France, who
> actually were descendents of Scandinavians as well.

Britain was settled by the Picts before the Celts turned up. The Celts
exterminated the Picts, mostly, but some cultural remnants lingered,
especially in Ireland, the last refuge of the Picts. All this happened
before the Romans turned up.

This is true of EVERY culture in the world. Take Native Americans, for
instance. Consider the Sioux. They moved into the Central plains only a
couple of _decades_ before they were encountered by the white man (the
evidence suggests that they were actually pushed into the region by tribes
moving away from the coast, where Europeans were dislodging them. Certainly
the fact that they had horses when the Europeans met them indicates that
there was a second-hand contact already). In doing so, they dislodged
several tribes who were already there, who in turn moved west and dislodged
those living on the West Coast.

The Aztecs were in power only about two or three generations before the
Spanish turned up. Central America wouldn't "belong" to the Aztecs, that's
for sure.

The Iriquous League was also fairly new when the French and British started
to influence things in that region.

Looking off the American continent, to Australia: the Aboriginal tribes
moved around, frequently shared hunting and nomadic ranges, and fought
between each other for rights to those areas. They are not a homogeneous
people, as much as some Aboriginal activists like us to believe. Australia
certainly doesn't have any connection to the "Aboriginal people", because
there is no such thing. One of the big problems with our native-title
legislation is that it really just cedes ownership to the group who happened
to live there when the white man turned up and started curtailing the
nomadic lifestyle.

In short, the idea that the land has some sense of "belonging" to a group of
people is, to put it bluntly, CRAP! If the land can belong to someone that
quickly, then it'll belong to the current owners.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

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