Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: The viciousness of martial arts (was: Matrix Spoilers)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:18:29 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, David Buehrer wrote:

> The most grevious error was that they only moved back and forth most of
> the time. A martial artist at that skill level doesn't just restrict
> himself to moving backwards and forwards. He moves sideways and
> corners in and out on you (as you move forward he moves diagonal into
> you ending up off to your weak side and takes out your ribs). In fact,
> going sideways or cornering out are prefered.

Hell yes. When faced with someone coming at me, my first thought
will be to get the hell out of the way. The key is that this is
accomplished not simply by backing up but by angling, sidestepping,
twisting in place, or even by stepping forward (something that throws
people for a loop).

> There should have been a *lot* of throws. Of course, throws aren't very
> showy on the silver screen :)

Tell that to Steven Seagal. I find throws to be showier than most
punches and kicks, but that's probably because I am familiar with the
inherent difficulty involved in performing them correctly in an actual
combat situation.

> Posing before you attack is a major no no.

Agreed. The less warning someone has that you are about to hit
him, the less he can prepare for it. Even if your opponent is already in
"fight mode" mentally, surprise hits are what make the difference. It's
fairly easy to tense, relax, or subtly move away from a hit that you know
is coming. Hell, it's reflexive. But if you get jacked in the neck by a
shot that you didn't even know was inbound, you're gonna go down. Period.
Boxers can take a tremendous amount of punishment from body blows, but if
you hit one in the stomach when he's not expecting it you can do serious
damage (ruptured spleen, burst intestine, liver damage, bruised diaphragm,
etc).

> The sternum and face are valid targets, but they are not targets of
> choice for a martial artists. For example, my target of choice is the
> knee. Or if I can catch a strike you can kiss your elbow goodbye.

I've always been partial to the neck, knees, and kidneys. The
floating ribs are good too, and absurdly easy to hit under many
circumstances. The ankles and feet are fun simply because no one really
expects to get kicked in the ankle (which is what makes it effective).

The problem with portraying martial arts (or any kind of
combat) in movies is that it's over so quickly. Real combat takes place
in seconds, not minutes. You don't take twenty round-house kicks to the
head, then come from behind and kick your opponent's ass. The best way to
take your opponent out of a fight is before he even knows he's fighting.
Often times, the first hit will decide the outcome. After that, all
that's left is one guy on the ground trying to protect himself as best he
can, and another guy standing over him kicking him like a dog. With
trained martial artists who are serious about combat (and not all are),
there's usually a sickening crunch in that first hit as some major bone or
other gets broken.
Armed combat is the same way. Olympic fencing aside, people with
weapons in their hands are usually trying to kill each other. This
changes all the rules. Opponents circle cautiously (because recklessness
kills), sizing each other up and waiting for someone to make a mistake or
leave an opening. They come together suddenly, and usually one of them
dies, if not both. This is especially true where swords are concerned, as
even near-misses can cause grievous tissue damage.
But nobody wants to see a fight like this. You don't want to see
a minute of stillness followed by a momentary flurry of movement too
quick or subtle for the untrained observer to catch, followed by a guy on
the ground screaming in pain. You can't "root for the good guy" this way.
It doesn't get your blood pumping and isn't climactic. It's more like,
"Whoa! What the hell just happened there."
To bring this all back to Shadowrun, I've heard time and time
again that the melee combat rules make combat go too quickly. Well, if
you're looking for cinematic, then you're probably right. If you're
looking for realistic however, SR's melee mechanic produces results that
are surprisingly realistic given the level of abstraction of the rules.

Marc
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger bxb121@***.edu
Subject: The viciousness of martial arts (was: Matrix Spoilers)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:33:59 -0400 (EDT)
> To bring this all back to Shadowrun, I've heard time and time
> again that the melee combat rules make combat go too quickly. Well, if
> you're looking for cinematic, then you're probably right. If you're
> looking for realistic however, SR's melee mechanic produces results that
> are surprisingly realistic given the level of abstraction of the rules.

Really? While I find this true in unbalanced cases (Jet Li vs. Jimmy
Olsen), in balanced cases (Jimmy vs. Evil Jimmy, Jet vs. Fighter) the
successes almost always cancel each other out, and the final damage is
so low that Body easily shrugs it. Melee combat takes forever and is
ineffective unless you have a clear advantage over your opponent. (In
SR)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 3
From: Kelson kelson13@***********.com
Subject: The viciousness of martial arts (was: Matrix Spoilers)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 05:12:42 -0800
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:33:59 Brett Borger wrote:

>Really? While I find this true in unbalanced cases (Jet Li vs. Jimmy
>Olsen), in balanced cases (Jimmy vs. Evil Jimmy, Jet vs. Fighter) the
>successes almost always cancel each other out, and the final damage is
>so low that Body easily shrugs it. Melee combat takes forever and is
>ineffective unless you have a clear advantage over your opponent. (In
>SR)

Wow. What kinda SR you been playin'? ;) I've never really had this problem. As long as
you apply all the appropriate TN mods, I've seen UC take one turn or less (one action,
sometimes) pretty often. As soon as one person takes damage, it's all downhill from
there. Getting hit by a guy with a STR of 5 and a few successes behind it isn't easy to
shrug off unless you're wearing good armor and have a good Body attribute. Even so,
you've probably used up some of your combat pool dice and have fewer for to use the next
time the guy swings at you (unless you refresh before then). Using overdamage rules
always helps too. ;)

*shrug* Unarmed and Armed combat don't take very long most of the time that I've seen.
The only way I could see it doing so is if you don't use all the TN mods or you let people
walk around in lots of armor too much.

>-=SwiftOne=-

Justin


-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
Message no. 4
From: Brett Borger bxb121@***.edu
Subject: The viciousness of martial arts (was: Matrix Spoilers)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:07:29 -0400 (EDT)
> >so low that Body easily shrugs it. Melee combat takes forever and is
> >ineffective unless you have a clear advantage over your opponent. (In
> >SR)
>
> Wow. What kinda SR you been playin'? ;) I've never really had
> this problem. As long as you apply all the appropriate TN mods,
> I've seen UC take one turn or less (one action, sometimes) pretty
> often. As soon as one person takes damage, it's all downhill from
> there. Getting hit by a guy with a STR of 5 and a few successes
> behind it isn't easy to shrug off unless you're wearing good armor
> and have a good Body attribute. Even so, you've probably used up

Oh yeah, once someone gets hurt it's basically over....but that takes
forever to happen in balanced cases.

'Course, it may just be my luck. Let's examine a test case:

Both Jimmy and Johnny have Unarmed (pinky wrestling) at 5. Combat
pools of 8. Bodies of 4 and strengths of 5. Wearing Armor Jacket.
Unenhanced initiatives.

Jimmy goes for a left-pinky grab, devoting half-combat pool. Roll
9[4] gives 5 successes. Johnny evades with an unethical palm block,
rolling 9[4] (also w/ half combat pool). Johnny gets 6 success, and
Jimmy has to resist 5-3=2M stun. 4[2] gives 4 successes and no
damage.

Johnny, seeking to capitalize on his success, goes rolling 9[4] and
getting a stunning 6 successes. Jimmy, whose pinky came through
remarkably unscathed, saves his combat pool for damage resistance and
rolls 5[4], only getting 2 successes. He takes 5-3=2 M+2=D Damage.
He rolls 4+4=8[2] and gets 8 successes, and is fine.

Jimmy suffers a massive pinky cramp and they decide to fight another
day...

Where I seem right: If someone is wearing armor, and the attacker has
not-incredible strength, damage _is_ fairly easy to shrug off unless
someone got lucky when you got unlucky on the armed combat test.

Where I seem wrong: As soon as luck works one or the other (for
example, above if Jimmy rolled the more realistic 7 successes, he'd
get a light wound, and things would spiral. But then, in the same
example Johnny also got more successes than he should have.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 5
From: Kelson kelson13@***********.com
Subject: The viciousness of martial arts (was: Matrix Spoilers)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:36:44 -0800
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:07:29 Brett Borger wrote:

>Oh yeah, once someone gets hurt it's basically over....but that takes
>forever to happen in balanced cases.

>'Course, it may just be my luck. Let's examine a test case:

<Snip of example>

>Where I seem right: If someone is wearing armor, and the attacker has
>not-incredible strength, damage _is_ fairly easy to shrug off unless
>someone got lucky when you got unlucky on the armed combat test.

Well, the first thing to do in such a balanced situation is alter the balance in your
favor. You could call a shot to avoid armor (+2 TN) and if you even get 1 net success,
it's much harder to stage down. If you get 3 successes, he probably won't be able to
stage it down all the way (depending upon body and combat pool dice remaining, etc).
Alternately, you could throw your opponent in attemt to make him prone (lying on the
ground) (+2 to TN). Then, his being prone lowers your TN to hit him next time by 1. (I
believe it also increases his TN to hit by 1 until he gets up). Not to mention that the
throw itself could cause some damage (but impact armor will still apply).

If you simply have both opponents (who have equal skills and attributes) in a 1-on-1 roll
the same amount of dice for their attacks, OF COURSE things will seem balanced. Your
example is a theoretical situation which will probably never happen (there's lots of
variety in SR -- not everyone has the same attributes, skill levels, armor, etc.).

>Where I seem wrong: As soon as luck works one or the other (for
>example, above if Jimmy rolled the more realistic 7 successes, he'd
>get a light wound, and things would spiral. But then, in the same
>example Johnny also got more successes than he should have.

You're not wrong. You're just not using a lot of creativity in combat. ;) It shouldn't
be "I hit him". "I counterattack". "I kick him". That
doesn't really include a lot of strategy. Calling a shot to the knee (special effect +2
called shot TN mod -- I allow this) could really hinder an opponent's mobility, for
example. Putting him in lock also hinders mobility while allowing you to do other nasty
things (pulling out that knife and stabbing him with it, for example).

It's all in how you play it. :)

>-=SwiftOne=-

Justin


-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
Message no. 6
From: Brett Borger bxb121@***.edu
Subject: The viciousness of martial arts (was: Matrix Spoilers)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:58:25 -0400 (EDT)
> Well, the first thing to do in such a balanced situation is alter
> the balance in your favor. You could call a shot to avoid armor
> (+2 TN) and if you even get 1 net success, it's much harder to

1) Your GM must allow called shots to bypass armor. Many don't, and I
believe the vanilla rules don't.
2) 9[6] will yeild maybe 1, or 2 successes, while my opponent rolling
9[4] will mean that my armor bypassing shot won't hit.

> dice remaining, etc). Alternately, you could throw your opponent
> in attemt to make him prone (lying on the ground) (+2 to TN).

1) Again, your GM must allow such creativity. Note the vamillar rules
say that Melee is a series of moves, and specific actions aren't
contained within. You are assumed to be attempting such throws and
called shots, just as your opponent is assumed to be trying them
against you.

> If you simply have both opponents (who have equal skills and
> attributes) in a 1-on-1 roll the same amount of dice for their
> attacks, OF COURSE things will seem balanced. Your example is a
> theoretical situation which will probably never happen (there's
> lots of variety in SR -- not everyone has the same attributes,
> skill levels, armor, etc.).

No, but with skills levels at 5 or less, and attrributes at 5 or less,
and armor at 2 or three points, your averages are pretty much in the
same area. And such average stats DO happen quite often.

> You're not wrong. You're just not using a lot of creativity in
> combat. ;) It shouldn't be "I hit him". "I counterattack".
"I
> kick him". That doesn't really include a lot of strategy.

SR has generalized strategy out of melee combat.

> It's all in how you play it. :)

True. And now, having compared my way and your way, I'm curious what
other people have....is melee an all-or-nothing proposition, or is it
lightning fast? Anyone?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 7
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: The viciousness of martial arts (was: Matrix Spoilers)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:58:35 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Kelson wrote:

> Well, the first thing to do in such a balanced situation is alter the
> balance in your favor. You could call a shot to avoid armor (+2 TN) and
> if you even get 1 net success, it's much harder to stage down.

It should be pointed out that the stuff that Justin is talking
about comes mainly from my house rules on hand-to-hand combat (which are
pretty simple, but add such concepts as aiming and called shots to melee
combat). They're not nearly as complicated as some systems I've seen and
were concocted with an eye towards gaining realism without sacrificing
playability.
If you're curious, check them out at the following URL:

www-personal.umich.edu/~jormung/shadowrun/rules.html

Sadly, they are for SR2. The SR3 update is in the works, and
should be done "Real Soon Now (tm)". But most of the principles remain
the same, and some of them were even included in SR3. The relevant parts
are the sections on martial arts, called-shots, ties in melee, and
grappling.
Check them out and you may get some ideas on how to make melee
combat both more realistic and more dangerous.

> You're not wrong. You're just not using a lot of creativity in combat.
> ;) It shouldn't be "I hit him". "I counterattack". "I
kick him".

Exactly. dictating the circumstances of combat are what make the
difference between winning and losing.

Marc
Message no. 8
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: The viciousness of martial arts (was: Matrix Spoilers)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:56:24 -0400 (EDT)
Brett Borger <bxb121@***.edu> writes:
> > >so low that Body easily shrugs it. Melee combat takes forever and is
> > >ineffective unless you have a clear advantage over your opponent. (In
> > >SR)
[snip]

> Oh yeah, once someone gets hurt it's basically over....but that takes
> forever to happen in balanced cases.
>
> 'Course, it may just be my luck. Let's examine a test case:
>
> Both Jimmy and Johnny have Unarmed (pinky wrestling) at 5. Combat
> pools of 8. Bodies of 4 and strengths of 5. Wearing Armor Jacket.
> Unenhanced initiatives.

I can't say I'm fond of your test case. It's like dueling
with light pistols and Armor Jackets. (5 firearms + 3 CP die @ TN 4 3 successes. Resist
2S damage. 4 body + 3 combat pool means you're
probably safe)

For a more common example, balance out the arms vs. armor.

1) Jimmy and Johnny are wrestling, and neither of them are wearing
armor jackets because they couldn't slip them past security.
2) Jimmy and Johnny have found a large stick to beat each other with
instead of using their pinkies. (Club @ STR+2 M Stun)

> Jimmy goes for a left-pinky grab, devoting half-combat pool. Roll
> 9[4] gives 5 successes. Johnny evades with an unethical palm block,
> rolling 9[4] (also w/ half combat pool). Johnny gets 6 success, and
> Jimmy has to resist 5-3=2M stun. 4[2] gives 4 successes and no
> damage.

In the two cases above, Jimmy is resisting 5M stun in case 1,
4M stun in case 2, and 5M in the case of a katana. 4[4] = 2 successes
and a light wound, probably a moderate in the other cases. He can
throw in the rest of his combat pool to avoid this, but he'll be in
trouble the next round. Jimmy is now at a +1TN and is going downhill
from here.

> Johnny, seeking to capitalize on his success, goes rolling 9[4] and
> getting a stunning 6 successes.

Jimmy is now hosed with the new TN of 4 or 5.

> Where I seem right: If someone is wearing armor, and the attacker has
> not-incredible strength, damage _is_ fairly easy to shrug off unless
> someone got lucky when you got unlucky on the armed combat test.

Yep. If they bring their armor, bring your survival knife,
stun baton, or sap. If you're not worried about being seen with a
weapon, bring something larger (stun baton still works, katana, reach
2 weapon). Martial arts doesn't necessarily mean you're using just
your body.
In addition, it's usually an adept w/ increased skill that's
trying to pull this off whenever I see it. He's rolling enough dice
to actually hurt pretty easily.

Mark

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about The viciousness of martial arts (was: Matrix Spoilers), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!