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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Doctor Doom <jch8169@*******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: T$R and FASA
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 03:38:47 -0500
Meine Kameraden:

I, personally, do not possess a ubiquitous antipathy for TSR -- they have
developed the odd worthwhile product, although I admit the appearances of
such products have become fewer and further between as the years progress.

> It's not that I don't trust FASA, it just, we'll, that I don't trust
> FASA.

Entschuldigen Sie? Hayden, you do not trust ANYONE of authority!

> T$R has always been on the forfront of facist thinking in the
> gaming industry, and FASA is mirroring many of the traits seen in the
> young T$R.

I believe this to be an alarmist sentiment. FASA has, as of yet, partaken
of no actions that indicate that their approach to and stance upon this
issue even remotely resembles TSR's.

Also, I believe that likening FASA to TSR in this fashion is both vicious
hyperbole and unwarranted. A number of members of this list have ridiculed,
castigated, and simply cursed FASA for their tardiness in the production
schedule, editing anomalies, and the ubiquitous Errata documents.

To them, I query: What would you prefer? Some leviathonic, monolithic
organization devoid of soul, churning out products, modules, and source
material in assembly-line fashion? Always on time, always flawless --
for what it produces is so pedestrian, sterile, and recycled concepts
that it requires truly no inspirational effort to produce?

Or perhaps we shall have our FASA -- keep the $ out of the name, 'tis wholly
inappropriate! Which isn't perfect... Which is often late... Howe'er,
produces products which are invigorating, innovative, rife with originality
and comes from an organization whose representatives are understanding and
/approachable/. I rather expect if each and every one of us did not derive
SOME measure of pleasure from ShadowRun, we would not be participating upon
this list.

Can we have the positive attributes of both? Possibly. Such an evolution
shall naturally require a great deal of time and care so that the SOUL of
FASA is retained and not sacrificed at the foot of the modern idol, Mammon.

FASA hasn't published a collector's edition of its catalogue, unlike TSR,
and if they (and we) are careful, they ne'er shall.

Sherlock Holmes once said, "It is a mistake to theorize in advance of data.
Invariably it biases the judgment."

I would admonish this list to permit us to accumulate a greater amount of
information before drawing (or jumping to) our conclusions.


Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.

Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@*******.tamu.edu ]
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
"Attack, attack, and when in doubt, ATTACK!" -- Frederick the Great of Prussia
Message no. 2
From: A cohort's CoHort <cohort@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: T$R and FASA
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 07:00:08 -0700
On Sun, 31 Jul 1994, Doctor Doom wrote:

> I, personally, do not possess a ubiquitous antipathy for TSR -- they have
> developed the odd worthwhile product, although I admit the appearances of
> such products have become fewer and further between as the years progress.
>
Total agreement here... Read on...

> > T$R has always been on the forfront of facist thinking in the
> > gaming industry, and FASA is mirroring many of the traits seen in the
> > young T$R.
>
> I believe this to be an alarmist sentiment. FASA has, as of yet, partaken
> of no actions that indicate that their approach to and stance upon this
> issue even remotely resembles TSR's.
>
I don't feel this way. Note: Earlier in FASA's life, there was a big
lawsuit between Palladium and FASA over FASA's blatant copyright
violation of some of Palladuim's exclusively licenced artwork.
I do not know the outcome of the suit, if anyone knows, I'd certainly
appreciate enlightenment.

> Also, I believe that likening FASA to TSR in this fashion is both vicious
> hyperbole and unwarranted. A number of members of this list have ridiculed,
> castigated, and simply cursed FASA for their tardiness in the production
> schedule, editing anomalies, and the ubiquitous Errata documents.
>
Another note: Steve Jackson Games, of "GURPS" fame, have recently had
numerous production delays and editing anomolies, "GURPS Vehicles" being a
major icon of this. I believe that all smaller publishers, specifically
of Gaming supplies, have these traits fully in common. (also note here
that instead of errata, SJG has been quoted on the fact that this book is
being completely rewritten, which, IMHO, is a plus)

> Can we have the positive attributes of both? Possibly. Such an evolution
> shall naturally require a great deal of time and care so that the SOUL of
> FASA is retained and not sacrificed at the foot of the modern idol, Mammon.
>
Don't forget, Herr Doktor, that the sole reason for FASA's original
existence was to create enough inflow of cash to create the Battletech
Center.


cohort@******.connected.com
-----=====-----
Main's Law: For every action there is an equal
and opposite government program.
Message no. 3
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: T$R and FASA
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 13:03:20 +0100
On Sun, 31 Jul 1994, Doctor Doom wrote:

> > It's not that I don't trust FASA, it just, we'll, that I don't trust
> > FASA.
>
> Entschuldigen Sie? Hayden, you do not trust ANYONE of authority!

That's not true, Doom.

> I believe this to be an alarmist sentiment. FASA has, as of yet, partaken
> of no actions that indicate that their approach to and stance upon this
> issue even remotely resembles TSR's.

Actually, i disagree. Over the past, say, 5 years, there has been an
increasing apathy towards the consumers evident in SR, along with a
general decline in the overall quality of work.

While I was not part of "the FASA universe" in terms of being a write or
even a consumer until early 1989, I have been almost exclusively a FASA
child since then. It just seems that what we are getting is less useful
material and more material designed to "make a buck". The first of these
was SRII. Whern it came out, we all agreed that the book as a whole
wasn't anything more than your basic bug-fix and really only served to be
a way to get a quick $25 from you ($35 if you could manage to locate one
of the early hard-cover versions). I mean, it used the same cover art,
which seemed to cheapen it, got rid of the wonderful de Vincuesque race
descriptions, and really didn't do much except to fix the errros that
good GMs had repaired long ago. The same seemed to happen with the
Rigger Black Book, and to some extent, even Corporate Shadowfiles. FASA
is growing impersonal, which is the first step towards T$Resque behaviour.

As another example, not FASA related, back in 1986-87, I was working
freelance for Steve Jackson's Car Wars game. This was PRE-Sundevil. SJG
was a small shop that really only had a few popular products (Car Wars,
Illuminati, and Ogre). It was very easy to work with SJG and dispite me
being very young (15? something like that), they treated me like an adult
and with respect. Right about this time, something happened. GURPS was
released and with the few follow-up supplements, took off like a shot.
Soon after, the Secret Service shut SJG games for a while, and also made a
name for them. When SJG came back, it had the popular support for its
games and everyone in the industry wanted to work for them.

Slowly, SJG became much more impersonal. GURPS became popular, and the
previous gems of systems were dropped to concentrate mainly onb GURPS
supplements. Today, it is very difficult to deal with SJG on anything
but an impersonal level.

I'm not saying this is bad, but when a gaming company looses contact with
its' faithful consumers, a certain amount of quality control goes out the
window as well. In addition, the perspective is lost about WHO they are
writing for, and we start to get behaviour similiar to what T$R does.
Churning out piles and piles of crap (a $25 hard-cover CATALOG!!!) and
the expectation that the consumers, who are naturally creative, will just
gulp it up and use it without changing.

I see that starting to happen with FASA, and I worry.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else, dammit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
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Message no. 4
From: Doctor Doom <jch8169@*******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: T$R and FASA
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 19:04:54 -0500
Von dem Fearless Leader:

> That's not true, Doom.

I am aware of that.

I was being sarcastic ... I suppose I was not running the sarcasm utility.

> While I was not part of "the FASA universe" in terms of being a write or
> even a consumer until early 1989, I have been almost exclusively a FASA
> child since then. It just seems that what we are getting is less useful
> material and more material designed to "make a buck". The first of these
> was SRII. Whern it came out, we all agreed that the book as a whole

I truly think that your panning of ShadowRun II is undeserved. Certainly,
a case may be made that it /was/, at least in some measure, an effort to
raise funds -- although most every action of a company is towards that end,
it is merely a question of demeanor: Mindless, dogged determination, the
desire to stay financially afloat, or somewhere in between. Personally, I
was quite pleased with ShadowRun II, as it took the counsel and suggestions
of many a player and Game Master into its reconfigurement. It is markedly
more sophisticated and its regulations have proven to be a far better
attempt at achieving /prima facie/ status that ShadowRun I did. Although,
I grant 'tis not perfect, but it is a singular improvement.

That having been said, I shall ne'ertheless vouchsafe your observations
about the Rigger Black Book -- it /is/ riddled with difficulties.

> Slowly, SJG became much more impersonal. GURPS became popular, and the
> previous gems of systems were dropped to concentrate mainly onb GURPS
> supplements. Today, it is very difficult to deal with SJG on anything
> but an impersonal level.

I shall not comment upon Steve Jackson Games as I have had only one case of
interaction with them; consequently, I do not feel I possess enough data
to draw erudite conclusions.

> I'm not saying this is bad, but when a gaming company looses contact with
> its' faithful consumers, a certain amount of quality control goes out the
> window as well. In addition, the perspective is lost about WHO they are
> writing for, and we start to get behaviour similiar to what T$R does.

I believe we would all concede your specific points here; however, it is a
question of degrees, mein Kamerad. I rather speculate the situation, in
the case of FASA, has not developed the dire circumstances or diabolical
proportions to which you assign it.


Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.

Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@*******.tamu.edu ]
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
"If there is ever another war in Europe, it will come out of some damn fool
thing in the Balkans."
-- Chancellor Otto von Bismarck-Schoenhausen
Message no. 5
From: Mercenary X <kdye@*****.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: T$R and FASA
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 18:34:24 -0700
I think you will find answers to many of your questions on page
276 of SRII

X

Further Reading

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These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.