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Message no. 1
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: unarmed/me
Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 10:28:30 +6000
Jani wrote:
>> In Shadowrun terms... skills represent knowledge. High skill = high
>> knowledge of the art
>
> Wrong, well at least partly. In SR skills represent overall competence,
> a nuclear physicist with an intelligence attribute of 2 and a skill of 9
> is a genius. He might be a bit slow where pure perception is required,
> but he is still a genius. Sherlock Holms however would have one helluva
> intelligence (it should be called perception).

Intelligence is also the power to deduce things quickly so yes Holmes
would have had and intelligence of 8-9 and the nuclear physicist might
not make an _inspirational_ breakthrough with int of 2. sure he could
make the same discovery but not until he'd worked through every step.

> So this logic explains how/why skill rating compensates for speed
> in HtH combat.

True, otherwise a MA expert would need high reaction, therefore
high quickness and intelligence. there is no reason that _high_
powers of deduction are required (sure moderate int helps) and how
are MA experts automatically superb sprinters? and the extent to which
these are required is shown in the size of the combat pool.

Keep things simple you train to get better. therefore you gain karma
to get better (by putting it on unarmed as easily as anything else.)

One complaint I have that hasn't been picked up on, is that with skill
of 3 in electronics I know everything someone with a concentration at level
3 knows (roughly) so therefore if I have unarmed at 4 then I know
every Martial arts style at 4 as they are concentrations. This has to be
wrong. So we treat unarmed as ettiquette and lanquages where you
have to take a concentration be it a Martial arts style or street brawl
or pub brawl :)

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 2
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: unarmed/me
Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 23:23:29 -0500
>Intelligence is also the power to deduce things quickly so yes Holmes
>would have had and intelligence of 8-9 and the nuclear physicist might
>not make an _inspirational_ breakthrough with int of 2. sure he could
>make the same discovery but not until he'd worked through every step.

Which is exactly my point... Sure a highly skilled combatant can do
impressive things. But it may take him longer and time counts for a whole
lot in hand-to-hand.

>True, otherwise a MA expert would need high reaction, therefore
>high quickness and intelligence. there is no reason that _high_
>powers of deduction are required (sure moderate int helps) and how
>are MA experts automatically superb sprinters? and the extent to which
>these are required is shown in the size of the combat pool.

How many martial artists who have trained themselves hard don't have quick
reflexes? Intelligence (in this case) applies to one's ability to deduct
his opponent's strategies. If you're dim, you're dead. Quickness is
absolutely needed unless you just practice for show's sake. But this is
about combat, remember?

>Keep things simple you train to get better. therefore you gain karma
>to get better (by putting it on unarmed as easily as anything else.)

You get better at the art by putting karma into your skill. You get better
physically by putting karma into your stats. You do not get better
attributes by putting karma into your skills.

>One complaint I have that hasn't been picked up on, is that with skill
>of 3 in electronics I know everything someone with a concentration at level
>3 knows (roughly) so therefore if I have unarmed at 4 then I know
>every Martial arts style at 4 as they are concentrations. This has to be
>wrong. So we treat unarmed as ettiquette and lanquages where you
>have to take a concentration be it a Martial arts style or street brawl
>or pub brawl :)

Picked up on that a LONG time ago. Stated it, no-one said anything.
Shadowrun is sorely inadequate in this regard.


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 3
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: unarmed/me
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 11:33:06 +6000
Mark wrote:
>> Is it skill? Nope... SPEED.
>
> I did not at the top of the origonal post that some folks know more.
> Consturctive comments on why you are right appreciated, do you have a
> simple (i.e. playable without 2 buckets rather than the usual 1 of
> dice) way of implementing a more realistic system in SR.

The simplest way I can see is to add a TN modifier for difference in
reaction (combines Intelligence&Quickness). Say the guy with slower
reaction gets +1 to TN for two points difference in reaction.
So a guy with reaction 3 against one with 7 gets a TN of 6
instead of 4. Not too hard, I don't know any MA so I'll take every body
elses word that speed is vital, (sounds reasonable) however it means
that trolls aint quite as good as they used to be. This speed modifier
would match the reach advantage that trolls get. How large can reaction
get? or tend to get? I have a feeling that this TN modifier could get
pretty huge if you can get a reaction of 11, against a guy of 3, then
+4 TN he'd better be a troll with a damn amazing skill.

Well, its worth a try as an initial suggestion, any alternatives
or variations?

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.uk>

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