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Message no. 1
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: VCRs
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 13:34:17 +1000
Adam writes:

> His response increases occur because he has hardwired his
> reflexes to his spinal cord for driving. Grey matter is rather
> specialized, in that learning one set of reflexes does not coordinate
> well with another set (that's done in the brain). A rigger gets Response
> Increase from his deck just by dropping some hardware accelerators in
> there; like adding a math coprocessor or faster chip. A riggers
> responses are increased in *realtime*, giving him finer and faster
> control over the vehicle, with extra levels of VCR. More reflexes are
> hardwired to the spinal column hence more essence loss.

So your saying its rather like a heavy duty cyber version of the reflex
recorders out of shadowtech? That sounds OK I guess.

Damion
Message no. 2
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: VCRs
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 13:38:05 +1000
Rat writes:

> That's the problem, they're /not/ all coming from the brain. Remember the
> grey matter in the typists fingers? Well the signals coming from there
> never reach the brain. Basic VCRs don't connect that stuff up which is part
> of the reason the response isn't much better than unrigged (conflicting
> signals and all that). The best VCRs have hooks everywhere, and thus the
> high Essence cost.

I see the idea, but I dont see the reasoning. Why the need to connect to the
sites of grey matter around the body?

Damion
Message no. 3
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: VCRs
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 13:42:18 +1000
Adam writes:

> The point is that Deckers are interacting with a *Virtual*
> Reality. For all they care, they could map twitching an eyelid to
> blasting away with an attack utility. Their sensorium is fed the signals
> from the Matrix in their brain center, sure, and they can control their
> icon by thought or maybe some keyboard tapping. There are no reflex
> loops from muscles to the spinal cord and back.
> A rigger is interacting with *reality*, and when they control
> something it needs to be reflexive. Whereas a decker only needs to
> control conscious nervous system, the part we all have control over, a
> rigger's got to tap into his autonomic nervous system, most of which is
> in the spinal cord, not the brain. Pure thought control is good only for
> conscious activities. As we've mentioned, the rigger controls some
> things, like fuel pumps, through internal vestibular senses most of us
> don't have access to.

Sounds reasonable.

> Because the splitters/processors are in different parts of the
> nervous system, that's why. You need one for the visual cortex, another
> for hearing, smell, taste, vestibular (internal sense), kinesthetic sense
> (balance) and a host for all the reflex loops you're running between the
> spine and fingers/toes/etc. Y' see, neurons are so specialized they'll
> only carry one particular impulse down one particular path. That's why
> we forget, and why memory aids work; gives us extra pathways to connect
> to that memory data.

I still dont see why not put it all thru one proccessor that spits it out the
right pathways.

> Modern robotic controllers (waldoes, after R.A.Heinlein, R.I.P.)
> map control of various things to muscle movements, sometimes even fine
> ones like waggling your pinky. A better way is to read the muscle
> impulse to waggle the pinky from the brain. An even better way is to
> read the muscle impulse during its path from the spinal cord to the
> pinky, because that's faster an can take advantage of reflexes and
> "muscle memory" learned in the spinal cord.

Why is the even better way to read it from the spine? The impusle has to come
from the brain in the first place, then go to the spine. Unless its an
automatic reaction like pulling away from a hot plate or the like.

Just a question, might resolve it all :-) Where do commands for things such
as walking originate from, the spine or the brain? 'cause rigging has to be
as natural as walking, and If the commands for walking originate from the
brain then I dont see the use of tapping into the spine, wheras if commands
for walking originate from the spine, then sure, tap in there. I would have
thought that things like breathing and heartbeat would have come from the
spine, as they're automatic, whereas walking would come from the brain. But,
hey, I'm studying engineering, and neurological analysis isnt one of my
subjects.

Damion
Message no. 4
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: VCRs
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 13:50:38 +1000
Adam writes:

> The point is that Deckers are interacting with a *Virtual*
> Reality. For all they care, they could map twitching an eyelid to
> blasting away with an attack utility. Their sensorium is fed the signals
> from the Matrix in their brain center, sure, and they can control their
> icon by thought or maybe some keyboard tapping. There are no reflex
> loops from muscles to the spinal cord and back.
> A rigger is interacting with *reality*, and when they control
> something it needs to be reflexive. Whereas a decker only needs to
> control conscious nervous system, the part we all have control over, a
> rigger's got to tap into his autonomic nervous system, most of which is
> in the spinal cord, not the brain. Pure thought control is good only for
> conscious activities. As we've mentioned, the rigger controls some
> things, like fuel pumps, through internal vestibular senses most of us
> don't have access to.

Sounds reasonable.

> Because the splitters/processors are in different parts of the
> nervous system, that's why. You need one for the visual cortex, another
> for hearing, smell, taste, vestibular (internal sense), kinesthetic sense
> (balance) and a host for all the reflex loops you're running between the
> spine and fingers/toes/etc. Y' see, neurons are so specialized they'll
> only carry one particular impulse down one particular path. That's why
> we forget, and why memory aids work; gives us extra pathways to connect
> to that memory data.

Why not put it all thru one processor that then directs it to the correct
places?

> Modern robotic controllers (waldoes, after R.A.Heinlein, R.I.P.)
> map control of various things to muscle movements, sometimes even fine
> ones like waggling your pinky. A better way is to read the muscle
> impulse to waggle the pinky from the brain. An even better way is to
> read the muscle impulse during its path from the spinal cord to the
> pinky, because that's faster an can take advantage of reflexes and
> "muscle memory" learned in the spinal cord.

Why would the even better way be to read the impulse during its path from
the spine to the finger? The impulse originates from the brain, so tap it
there. It wouldnt be faster, as the impulse has to get to the spine, then
get tapped, whereas if you tap it at the brain, well, then theres no
travelling time. You'll have to explain muscle memory to me, I dont
understand.

A question though. Rigging is sposed to be as natural as walking right?
Where do the commands for walking come from, the brain or the spine? If
they're from the brain, then its a braintap you'll need, if its the spine, a
spinal tap. I thought automatic responses like pulling away from a heat
source, breathing and regulation of the digestive tract came from the spine.
But then again, I'm studying engineering, and neurological analysis isnt one
of my subjects.

Damion
Message no. 5
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: VCRs
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 13:53:23 +1000
Adam writes:

> Thanks very much, Mark. Especially because I had thoughtlessly
> forwarded her e-mail to me to the list, and she felt humiliated by the
> response. I should have thought and asked her before I threw her out to
> the net-wolves.

Oops, that would probably be me. (GGRRR, rip, tear, savage). Sorry if my
reply offended her, it would probably have come accross as quite
confrontational, its the way I am I guess. I just picked what I thought were
holes in her logic, some may have been, and some may not have been, the idea
is for more thoughts to come across to back up or explain reasoning. You can
tell her it wasnt meant as an attack, and Im sorry if it came through that
way. I assume everything put up here is there to comment on, and I'd only
expect as much from things I post. They're there to be pulled apart, if I
post, I would like people to point out logic flaws and give their opinion of
what I put up. And I will do the same. That way, only the superior logic
will last the distance. At the moment, I rather like the idea of the
hardwired spine, much like an oversized reflex recorder, and this is nothing
like my original thoughts. My argument is going downhill, thats fine by me,
as long as a better idea supersedes it.

Damion
Message no. 6
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 03:16:13 -0700
On Sun, 19 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> Why not put it all thru one processor that then directs it to the correct
> places?

Okay, lets use an engineering example. Why doesn't Boeing or
McDonnell-Douglass wire all the controls/sensors of a plane along one
major trunk and then split out sensor relays, flight controls etc. to the
proper places? Because when you do that all your data has to go down one
pathway, which isn't necessarily the shortest or best, and because you
can have a data backlog. As one of the net-administrators why bus
networks are a pain and star/token ring networks are better. Because if
one thing goes it all goes.
Tip for you air travelers out there. DC-10s are more dangerous
than Boeing 727,737 et. al. because the flight controls for the plane run
in two cables *beneath* the passenger compartments. If pressure is lost
in the main cabin, the passenger deck can drop down into the hold,
severing the controls to the plane. It then quickly converts its
potential energy into kinetic energy, and ....
The point is, when processing a lot of data, distributed networks
are better.

> Why would the even better way be to read the impulse during its path from
> the spine to the finger? The impulse originates from the brain, so tap it
> there. It wouldnt be faster, as the impulse has to get to the spine, then
> get tapped, whereas if you tap it at the brain, well, then theres no
> travelling time. You'll have to explain muscle memory to me, I dont
> understand.

I don't think you understand the nervous system here. It is a
feedback loop. This means when you move your hand, the brain says "Hand,
move!" and the hand says "We're moving!" and the eyes say "A little
bit
to the left." and the brain says "What he said!" and the hand says
"Okay, we're moving to the left." and so on.
Now, when you're learning something new like walking, the brain
has to continously compensate the transfer function until convergence ...
er, adjust the legs until they balance and accomplish this task. When
this is achieved (the compensator has converged), the nifty little nerve
pathways that get used during this process say "Gee, we're being used so
much, let's widen and branch out to make things easier." This occurs
between the legs and spinal column, so that when the brain says "Walk!"
the legs fire back to the spinal column, and since the feedback loop is
in place the spinal column makes all the corrections without involving
the brain. This is why you can probably walk without thinking about it,
whereas as a toddler you were constantly adjusting your stride and so on.
This occurs for tasks involving the muscles. The same process
goes on for thought patterns, except the wiring is all in the brain. So,
at first doing calculus was laborious, whereas after a few years of
upper division physics and engineering I can do them in my sleep.
Since controlling a vehicle is a motor skill, it is most
efficient to establish reflex loops in the spine. Catching it at the
brain means you've wasted the time it took the signal to travel up and
down the spinal cord, and since our neurotransmitters clock in at about
300 meters per second at best, there is a noticeable difference.
They're actually slower than this because nerve fibers don't grow in
straight lines and some time is lost handing off the neurotransmitter
from neuron to neuron.
Make sense now? VCRs require the same sorts of mucking with the
nervous system that Wired Reflexes need.

> But then again, I'm studying engineering, and neurological analysis isnt one
> of my subjects.

I'm an "enginerd" too, but it helps to read the literature and have
a girlfriend who's a graduate of physiology.

>
> Damion
>

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 7
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 07:53:37 -0600
Damion writes:
"Where do commands for things such as walkin originate from, the spine or
the brain?"...."I would have thought that things like breathing and heartbeat
would have come from the spine, as their automatic, whereas walking would have
come from the brain."[Much condensed by BP]

As I remember my A&P[Anatomy and Physiology] from a couple a years back, the
Brain is made up of three Hemispheres, the
Cerebrum, Cerebellum, and Medulla Oblongota(sp?). The M.O. is the control for
all the automatic impulses: Breathing, heartrate, Flight or Fight rxn's,ect.
The Cerebrum and Cerebellum constitute the logical/rational and artistic
areas, along with higher reasoning, signal processing, and memory functions.
The walking originates in the brain, but after the original impulse to start
the motion, the sensory feedback in the M.O. and the spinal nerves take over,
so that you don't have to continually think" left foot, right foot, left foot,
and so on..." The spine does not initiate any movements, except where pain
stimuli are involved: the involuntary twitches that take your hand off a
hot stove, ect...but these signals are also routed to the brain for processing
so that you can tell if you have been injured...The spinal nerves are their for
the 'no-brain' actions needed to maximize the survival of the organism, and
to serve as guidepaths for the brain's commands.
Does this make any sense? How 'bout someone with a fresher memory than mine??
Bryan Prince
Message no. 8
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 09:32:38 -0400
Bryan, you wrote that "the Brain is made up of three hemispheres.."

I thought that a hemisphere was half a sphere. If this is true, then how
could you have three halves?? :-)

Nigel
Message no. 9
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 10:27:09 -0400
>>>>> "MILLIKEN" == MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
writes:

MILLIKEN> I see the idea, but I dont see the reasoning. Why the need to
MILLIKEN> connect to the sites of grey matter around the body?

Because while my brain is saying "go right!" my hands' are already doing
it. If the signal can be trapped at the hands, then the information gets to
the rigging gear faster than if it's trapped at the brainstem.

And that's the difference between a VCR-1 and a VCR-3.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "What do you want to do tonight,
Brain?"
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | "The same thing we do every night, Pinky,
this space intentionally left blank | try to take over the world!"
Message no. 10
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 10:30:24 -0400
>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU> writes:

Chris> Bryan, you wrote that "the Brain is made up of three hemispheres.."

I think he meant layers, rather than hemispheres.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Guns cause crime and cars cause vehicular
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | homicide.
Message no. 11
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 10:06:33 -0600
Nigel--
You are of course correct in a hemisphere being 1/2 a sphere. It should have
read " the brain has three major parts:the Cereberum, Cerebellum, and Medulla
Oblongata" My mistake, and thanks for catching it...
Bryan Prince
Message no. 12
From: Claudia Mohr <claudia@*****.PHYS.ND.EDU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 10:23:12 EST
Damion asked:
Where do commands for things such
as walking originate from, the spine or the brain?

Every arbitrary action is composed and controled by the brain. the only
movements controlled by the spine are reflexes - since it would need to much
time to go all the way up to the brain and controll the movement from there.
For movements of the heart etc you have for one so-called pacemaker neurons in
the vicinity of the heart itself and other control centers in the lower
(subconscious) parts of the brain but not in the spine.
I'm no engineer, I'm a neurobiologist.
Stay in the shadows and stay alive.
Claudia
Message no. 13
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 12:55:14 +1000
Rat writes:

> Because while my brain is saying "go right!" my hands' are already doing
> it. If the signal can be trapped at the hands, then the information gets to
> the rigging gear faster than if it's trapped at the brainstem.

Now, from this explanation it would seem that there is no need for the brain
to be involved in the movements of the hand. The learned responses are
automatic. This sounds alright, except, remember your first example of the
typist? Now, the hand can type without the input to move from the brain
right. I would not think that was very likely, if you close your eyes, sit
in front of a keyboard, and someone puts a piece of paper with words on it
in front of you and says type this page, then your stuffed. It doesnt matter
how well your hands can type by themselves, they need the input from they
eyes to know what to type, and this only comes from the brain. The only
responses that would not need proccessing would be completely automatic
ones, ones that didnt require a response from the brain.

Bryan writes:

>The walking originates in the brain, but after the original impulse to start
>the motion, the sensory feedback in the M.O. and the spinal nerves take over,
>so that you don't have to continually think" left foot, right foot, left foot,
>and so on..."

OK, then all motor function commands originate in the brain, so tap a "turn
wheels left" command as it leaves the brain, it would be faster than waiting
for it ot get to the spine.

Claudia writes:

>Every arbitrary action is composed and controled by the brain.
>I'm no engineer, I'm a neurobiologist.

So catch messages as they leave the brain.
Someone who knows waht they're talking about (Not like me) - Finally :-)
Do you have an opinion about VCRs?

Chaos Manager writes:

>And that's precisely why I say that VCR's and Wire Reflexes are
>incompatible. If wired adds circuitry that boosts pure reflex speed and
>a VCR boosts those same reflexes, yet attuning them for use in a
>vehicle, how could both systems be in the same body, and both work?

Ok, then. The fact that they _are_ both compatible would lead one to beleive
that they _dont_ use the same type of physical neural boosting. Note that
the book doesnt actually compare the two, and it doesnt use the same
terminology for them both either.
So if VCRs do not use the same type of neural wiring as wired reflexes, why
do they cost as much essense?

Damion
Message no. 14
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 10:29:18 -0400
>>>>> "MILLIKEN" == MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
writes:

MILLIKEN> Rat writes:
>> Because while my brain is saying "go right!" my hands' are already
doing
>> it. If the signal can be trapped at the hands, then the information gets
>> to the rigging gear faster than if it's trapped at the brainstem.

MILLIKEN> Now, from this explanation it would seem that there is no need
MILLIKEN> for the brain to be involved in the movements of the hand. The
MILLIKEN> learned responses are automatic.

To a point, it is automatic. But there is still continuous feedback betwen
the brain and the hands.

MILLIKEN> This sounds alright, except, remember your first example of the
MILLIKEN> typist? Now, the hand can type without the input to move from the
MILLIKEN> brain right.

[Now we're getting a bit more technical]

Not entirely, no. What the grey matter actually does is reduce some of the
feedback required to strike the appropriate keys.

MILLIKEN> I would not think that was very likely, if you close your eyes,
MILLIKEN> sit in front of a keyboard, and someone puts a piece of paper
MILLIKEN> with words on it in front of you and says type this page, then
MILLIKEN> your stuffed.

I can type blindfolded perfectly well, thankyouverymuch; but it is
difficult to read that way. Of course I can type from diction fairly well,
though I'm only at around 35wpm which is too slow for that in general (no,
I don't know shorthand :).

MILLIKEN> It doesnt matter how well your hands can type by themselves, they
MILLIKEN> need the input from they eyes to know what to type, and this only
MILLIKEN> comes from the brain.

But the movements to return my fingers to the "home row" is automatic, a
learned reflex, and does not require a command directly from the brain.

MILLIKEN> The only responses that would not need proccessing would be
MILLIKEN> completely automatic ones, ones that didnt require a response
MILLIKEN> from the brain.

That's what we're saying! Learned responses are just a reflexive as
autonomous ones (see the walking example). While all the signals eventually
route through the brain, it's faster to get them where they really
originate rather than second or third hand.

A VCR-1 just has ties to the cortex; it works, but it's slow.

A VCR-2 has hooks into larger portions of the central nervous system. Since
it's hooks are closer to the origins of reflexive impulses, it's faster
then the VCR-1. It also costs more Essence because of the greater number of
neural connections.

A VCR-3 has it's hooks throughout the nervous system, so it can get at the
neural impulses when they're triggered rather than just trapping the
feedback at the brain or spine. It's faster still because it's getting all
original signals, not feedback signals. It costs even more Essence because
of the significant number of neural connections.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | ...kcab nrut ,kcab nrut ,kcab nruT .ton
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | si emit tub elbisrever si cisum ehT "hgiH
this space intentionally left blank | nO eriF" ,OLE--
Message no. 15
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 07:32:51 -0700
Hey Damion,

VCR's cost so much Essence because the writers of the game were trying to
balance the rigger against the street samurai. Game balance. No other
real reason.

I don't have any pure riggers in my game. They turned out to be useless
in normal play. So I think the rules are stuffed too. I agree with you,
all they really need to do is tap the brain-stem and work from there.
But the rules were set up the way they are because the designers thought
the rigger would be important and wanted them balanced against the Sammi.

Sure, they came up with the varying vehicle control system idea to
justify it, and other people have done a wiz job of explaining the whole
thing and justifying it too. But it is still, really, a case of runaway
game-balance-itis.

It's like needing a total of 4cf of extra control equipment (datajack
control set + Rigger control set) to build electronic controls into a car
that already has a complete drive-by-wire (Autopilot) system already. It
makes no sense, it's just there for Game balance (all bow to the gods of
game-balance) ;)

There are problems with SRII, can't deny it.

Ivy
Message no. 16
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 10:32:46 +1000
Rat writes:

> To a point, it is automatic. But there is still continuous feedback betwen
> the brain and the hands.

So response time would be increased by hardwiring from the brain to the
hand? Like in wired reflexes? Well in VCRs the hardwiring would be from the
vehicle to the brain, so excessive intrabody hardwiring would be
unneccessary.

> But the movements to return my fingers to the "home row" is automatic, a
> learned reflex, and does not require a command directly from the brain.

> That's what we're saying! Learned responses are just a reflexive as
> autonomous ones (see the walking example). While all the signals eventually
> route through the brain, it's faster to get them where they really
> originate rather than second or third hand.

Dont all the signals _start_ in the brain? If your walking was initiated in
your feet, then your brain would not have control over your movement, it
would only get a feedback, and find out "oh, I'm moving, those damn feet
taking off by themselves again"

> A VCR-1 just has ties to the cortex; it works, but it's slow.
>
> A VCR-2 has hooks into larger portions of the central nervous system. Since
> it's hooks are closer to the origins of reflexive impulses, it's faster
> then the VCR-1. It also costs more Essence because of the greater number of
> neural connections.
>
> A VCR-3 has it's hooks throughout the nervous system, so it can get at the
> neural impulses when they're triggered rather than just trapping the
> feedback at the brain or spine. It's faster still because it's getting all
> original signals, not feedback signals. It costs even more Essence because
> of the significant number of neural connections.

I see the point of increasing neural connections requireing more essense,
but I dont see the idea that by putting in connections all around the body
you would get faster response time. Neural impluses for riggers would travel
between rigger and vehicle, rather like travelling between a person and
their legs, so extra connections would not be neccessary within the human
body. Connections to the spine maybe, for the automated responses.

As for Ivy's comments on game balance, I also said a similar thing on about
my second post on the subject, and it is the best explanation i have yet
seen to explain the exccessive essense cost of VCRs.

Rat said something about Wired reflexes and VCRs using the same type of
wired connectiosn but for different purposes. If so, would it not be
possible to wire someone up, then have a control chip to select which "mode"
to be in? Like to have the Wired reflexes running, then switch on the VCR
control chip and run a vehicle?

Damion
Message no. 17
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 12:35:27 -0400
>>>>> "MILLIKEN" == MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
writes:

MILLIKEN> Rat writes:
>> To a point, it is automatic. But there is still continuous feedback betwen
>> the brain and the hands.

MILLIKEN> So response time would be increased by hardwiring from the brain
MILLIKEN> to the hand? Like in wired reflexes?

Not from the hand to the brain, but from the hand to the rig (see my
comments on Wired Reflexes in another article). You'd want to bypass the
brain entirely in some ways to increase performance.

MILLIKEN> Well in VCRs the hardwiring would be from the vehicle to the
MILLIKEN> brain, so excessive intrabody hardwiring would be unneccessary.

>> But the movements to return my fingers to the "home row" is automatic,
a
>> learned reflex, and does not require a command directly from the brain.

>> That's what we're saying! Learned responses are just a reflexive as
>> autonomous ones (see the walking example). While all the signals eventually
>> route through the brain, it's faster to get them where they really
>> originate rather than second or third hand.

MILLIKEN> Dont all the signals _start_ in the brain?

Nope. The brain tells my hand, "move," and it starts moving; the hand sends a
signal back to the brain, "I'm moving." The brain responds "keep
going,"
and the hand continues to move, saying, "I'm still moving." The eyes see
the hand where the brain wants it to go and tells the brain, "it's there;"
the brain then tells the hand, "stop moving." The hand stops moving and
tells the brain, "ok, now what?" (a gross simplification, but it should get
the point across that it's a two-way communication).

Now, neural impulses travel at what, a couple hundred feet per second?
Something like that; I forget exactly but it's /slow/. Isn't it faster to
trap the signals coming from the hand at the hand and get it to the
processor at the speed of light rather than waiting the miliseconds for the
signals to reach the brain?

[...]

MILLIKEN> Rat said something about Wired reflexes and VCRs using the same
MILLIKEN> type of wired connectiosn but for different purposes. If so,
MILLIKEN> would it not be possible to wire someone up, then have a control
MILLIKEN> chip to select which "mode" to be in? Like to have the Wired
MILLIKEN> reflexes running, then switch on the VCR control chip and run a
MILLIKEN> vehicle?

Again, read my article on Wired Reflexes. While the wiring is similar in
nature, for maximum throughput the VCR bypasses the brain whereas Wired
Reflexes don't. The nature of the wiring is similar, but the physical
layout is quite different.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "The only way to deal with temptation is
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | to yield to it." --Oscar Wilde
Message no. 18
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: VCRs
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1994 23:29:44 +1000
Rat writes:

> MILLIKEN> Dont all the signals _start_ in the brain?
>
> Nope. The brain tells my hand, "move," and it starts moving; the hand sends
a
> signal back to the brain, "I'm moving." The brain responds "keep
going,"
> and the hand continues to move, saying, "I'm still moving." The eyes see
> the hand where the brain wants it to go and tells the brain, "it's there;"
> the brain then tells the hand, "stop moving." The hand stops moving and
> tells the brain, "ok, now what?" (a gross simplification, but it should get
> the point across that it's a two-way communication).

You just agreed with me! you started with "The brain tells my hand...". The
actual concious thought to move must originate in the brain, then once going
it may be taken over by autonimous subconcious control. Sure the feedback
loop will occur, but if its with a vehicle, then the feedback is via the
VCR, there would be no need to hardwire the body. Ones limbs would have
nothing to do with it. You dont run circutry for a smartlink through you
digestive tract do you? Why run the hardwiring for a VCR through your arm?
The commands go from the brain, to the vehicle, not from the brain, to the
hand, to the vehicle. It would be silly to wire up someone unnseccesarily.

> Now, neural impulses travel at what, a couple hundred feet per second?
> Something like that; I forget exactly but it's /slow/. Isn't it faster to
> trap the signals coming from the hand at the hand and get it to the
> processor at the speed of light rather than waiting the miliseconds for the
> signals to reach the brain?

No, sinse the hand is only responding to what the brain tells it anyway. It
would be faster to catch the message as it leaves the brain, then route it
to a proccessor than to wait for the feedback from the hand, then route that
to a proccessor. Anyway, the feedback from a hand would be useless to a
vehicle, you would need feedback from the vehicle itself, making hardwiring
to your hand unnessessary.
The hand wont respond unless the brain tells it to do something. OK, thats
wrong, if you lean on a hot surface then the _pain_ response goes from the
hand and heads towards tha brain, but the good 'ole spine says "hey, wait a
minute, our hand will be phucked if we leave it here much longer" and sends
commands to the hand to "move it asshole". But for walking, the brain says
"walk", the legs start, and then respond, but either the spine or
subconcious takes over. Having a VCR run on totally automatic responses
would be rather annoying, and dysfunctional. You could not control what was
occuring; when your hand jumps away from a hotplate do you control the
direction? No, thought not. But when you want to walk, then you conciously
control the direction to go, and some subconcious mechanism takes over.

David writes:

>[Stuff about automatic responses such as leaning on hot plates]
>
>I think this is how reflex recorders work. They extend this "automatic"
>processing in the spinal chord to actions such as firing a gun, etc.
>If you ask me, though, that makes reflex recorders awfully dangerous.
>The pain response I describe above is so automatic, I'd hate to see
>what would happen if it were extended to something like "firing gun
>at target". 'Oh, sorry Bob...'

I though reflex recorders worked by widening the neural pathways for the
desired reflex. This enabled a cleaner, faster message to get thru. Even so,
an effect like you described could still occur. Walking has rather widened
neural pathways, so when you concioulsy initiate walking, it occurs rapidly,
and some subconcious mechanism also takes over once you're started. Apply this
to shooting: you pull out your gun, and some subconcious mechanism takes
over... [after though when proof reading - perhaps not]
Applying this mechanism to VCRs would be possible I guess. The VCR widens
the neural pathways for controlling a vehicle (with cyber, as its faster
than flesh). This allows both quick response, and the VCR can be wired in to
give subconcious control of many functions once intiated. I would not see the
use of hardwiring throughout the body though. The brain and perhaps the spine,
but not limbs. You initiate a control of the vehicle, and your feedback loop
is accociated with the vehicle, and is regulated by the VCR interface. You
dont need to conciously keep the vehicle moving, but you do need to start the
engine up conciously, much like the thought to walk, then having your
subconcious motor control functions take over. The VCR wired into your brain
allows your subconcious to take control of vehicle movement.

>Along these same lines, I ruled that the high reactions of reflex boosts
>(wired, boosted, spells, etc) come at a price of automatic, reflexive
>(and sometimes, unfortunate) action. Char.s who don't want to lauch
>an attack at the nearest thing that startles them have to keep
>their "reflexes" in low-gear (with no bonuses). Changing to "high
gear"
>takes only a free-action, but it is conceivable that a wired-char.
>could be 'caught with his reflexes down' as it were.

I see the idea, but I would say that the learned/wired reflexes are not
neccessarily for "killing everything in sight", they are for fast response.
But I assume that wired etc is not always active, it just kicks in when
needed, that way you dont perform normal activities at a rate of knots,
unless of course you wish to. Having a free action required to initiate such
enhancements is a good idea though.


Claudia writes:

>Hi there, folks!

Hi there Claudia

>1) Not being aware of a movement doesn't automatically mean that the brain is
>not involved. A lot of work done by the brain happens on a subconscious level.

I use this idea above. Dont know if I use it correctly though :-)

>Damion wanted to know what I think about VCRs.
>I think they work similar to the brain. Which means there are a lot of things
>you do "without thinking" but there are no things done without brain
>involvement.
>Claudia (the neurobiologist, not the engineer..)

Perhaps you could elaborate further?

Damion
Message no. 19
From: Shawn Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET>
Subject: VCR's
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 21:01:13 -0500
Apologies for the stupid question, but do VCR's give a reaction bonus
even while not rigging (how's that for mangling English)? This may sound
dumb; I own nearly every sourcebook, but I never bothered to get the 2nd
Ed. Rulebook because I had all the other books which basically told the
difference between 1st and 2nd. In the 1st Ed. rules for VCR it says:

"Each level adds 2 to the users Reaction. Each level also allows an
additional +D6 on the initiative die when the user is controlling a
vehicle through his datajack."

I've always figured that the Reaction bonus justified the high Essence
cost, as a VCR and Wired Reflexes cost the same number of Essence, but
the Wired cost more nuyen because the initiative bonus applied to combat
instead of vehicle control.

Shawn
Donning his asbestos trenchcoat in preparation for the responses.

-----------------------------------------------------
Oh No!
Another damn page!
http://www.toptown.com/CENTRALPARK/DEOSYNE/
Ah what the hell; better than gardening!
Message no. 20
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: VCR's
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:27:33 -0700
Shawn Baumgartner wrote:
|
| Apologies for the stupid question, but do VCR's give a reaction bonus
| even while not rigging?

No. The reaction bonus and extra dice only apply while rigging.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 21
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: VCR's
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 22:33:48 EST
On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:27:33 -0700 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
>Shawn Baumgartner wrote:
>|
>| Apologies for the stupid question, but do VCR's give a reaction
>bonus
>| even while not rigging?
>
>No. The reaction bonus and extra dice only apply while rigging.
>
>-David
>--
>/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
> "His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
> alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
>~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
>
---
You know what they say about the stupid questions, they're easier to
handle.


Gweedo the Killer Pimp strikes again!
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: VCR's
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:33:40 +0100
Shawn Baumgartner said on 21:01/24 Feb 97...

> Apologies for the stupid question, but do VCR's give a reaction bonus
> even while not rigging (how's that for mangling English)? This may sound
> dumb; I own nearly every sourcebook, but I never bothered to get the 2nd
> Ed. Rulebook because I had all the other books which basically told the
> difference between 1st and 2nd. In the 1st Ed. rules for VCR it says:
>
> "Each level adds 2 to the users Reaction. Each level also allows an
> additional +D6 on the initiative die when the user is controlling a
> vehicle through his datajack."

VCRs only give their Reaction and initiative bonuses when the user is
rigging, either plugged into a vehicle or a building security, or whatever
else can be described as rigging. SRII page 249 specifically says "Each
level adds +2 to the user's Reaction while rigging." In SR1 this
distinction was not made, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I hear the voice of reason on the P.A.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Further Reading

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