Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Vehicle upgrade grades (was Re: FASA's release schedule)
Date:	Thu, 8 Aug 1996 11:48:52 +0100

Message no. 1 David Buehrer said on 9:43/ 7 Aug 96...

> What I want to do is set up the base stats for vehicles and improvements
> and add additional levels of modification based on the different ratings SR
> allready has for cyber- and bioware. For example: a player wants to design
> a car that is rigged and has a pop-up turret in the back trunk. The base
> stats for the turret says it requires a lot more room than his car has
> available. But if he gets the delta version of the turret there will be
> enough room to spare for the spare tire, of course it'll cost him. I.e.,
> the grade of the item (normal, alpha - gamma) decides the size and/or the
> performance. Gamma armor could be put on a sports car without hampering
> its maneuver. A normal 450 hp engine couldn't fit in a volkswagon bug, but
> a delta grade version could. This idea has the advantage that it already
> uses existing rules instead of new ones. What do you think?

I think it wouldn't really work. The difference between the grades of
cyberware is the quality of workmanship: the better it's made and adapted
to your body, the less Essence it will cost. How do you do that with a
turret? You have to keep it at a certain size to install the stuf you want
in it; it's not so simple to make it a bit smaller, because then where do
you put the MMG and its ammo?

It could be done with some things, I guess, like engines -- better-built
models could get more performance out of a smaller block, but the rules
already cover that (somewhat) with the high-performance engines, for
example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Negative expectations yield negative results.
Positive expectations yield negative results.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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From:	"Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject:	Re: Vehicle upgrade grades (was Re: FASA's release schedule
Date:	Thu, 8 Aug 1996 12:12:11 GMT + 2:00

Message no. 2 <snip bit about a Ferrari in Volkswagens chassie(sp!)>

@ > a delta grade version could. This idea has the advantage that it already
@ > uses existing rules instead of new ones. What do you think?

I agree with Gurth that installed non-custom manfactured items
such as weapons can really have their amount of space reduced, but
there again who knows, I suppose that you could argue that you
stripped off all the bits that make it person usable such as the
stock and other non-vital components <shrug>

@ I think it wouldn't really work. The difference between the grades
of
@ cyberware is the quality of workmanship: the better it's made and adapted
@ to your body, the less Essence it will cost. How do you do that with a
@ turret? You have to keep it at a certain size to install the stuf you want
@ in it; it's not so simple to make it a bit smaller, because then where do
@ you put the MMG and its ammo?
@
@ It could be done with some things, I guess, like engines -- better-built
@ models could get more performance out of a smaller block, but the rules
@ already cover that (somewhat) with the high-performance engines, for
@ example.

The major problem that I have with RBB is the fuel consumption
rules. Maybe I'm just a little bit bitter that in order to get our
Fiat Fokker to fly from Seattle to Azland we had to make 3 stops,
thats despite the fact that we has extra fuel tanks, expanded fuel
tanks and ripped out some of the seats for more fuel storage. All I
can say is that we where all waiting for the SAM (Which we managed to
dodge).

Still there again I don't fly and know nothing about plane fuel
consumption!;)

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject:	Re: Vehicle upgrade grades (was Re: FASA's release schedule
Date:	Thu, 8 Aug 1996 19:18:42 +0100

Message no. 3 In message <296837FF7@******.wits.ac.za>, Andre' Selmer
<031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za> writes
> The major problem that I have with RBB is the fuel consumption
>rules. Maybe I'm just a little bit bitter that in order to get our
>Fiat Fokker to fly from Seattle to Azland we had to make 3 stops,
>thats despite the fact that we has extra fuel tanks, expanded fuel
>tanks and ripped out some of the seats for more fuel storage. All I
>can say is that we where all waiting for the SAM (Which we managed to
>dodge).
>
> Still there again I don't fly and know nothing about plane fuel
>consumption!;)

Let's just say that according to an ex-USMC Harrier instructor pilot, a
VTOL takeoff uses the same amount of fuel as a conventonal one. The
limit is on gross weight: a Harrier can carry more weapons and/or fuel
(weight is weight) from a rolling takeoff than VTO. So that part of the
rules is radically wrong...

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	"Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject:	Re: Vehicle upgrade grades (was Re: FASA's release schedule
Date:	Thu, 8 Aug 1996 11:57:24 +0000

Message no. 4 Andre' Selmer wrote:
> The major problem that I have with RBB is the fuel consumption
> rules. Maybe I'm just a little bit bitter that in order to get our
> Fiat Fokker to fly from Seattle to Azland we had to make 3 stops,
> thats despite the fact that we has extra fuel tanks, expanded fuel
> tanks and ripped out some of the seats for more fuel storage. All I
> can say is that we where all waiting for the SAM (Which we managed to
> dodge).
>
> Still there again I don't fly and know nothing about plane fuel
> consumption!;)

Unmodified the Yamaha Rapier can go 450km farther than the Cloud Nine
on one tank of gas! Whoever heard of a motorcycle going 1200km on
one tank of gas????
***Sambo***

From:	mr.self-destruct@********.de (mr. self-destruct)
Subject:	RE: Re: Vehicle upgrade grades (was Re: FASA's release schedule
Date:	Thu, 8 Aug 96 22:04 +0100

Message no. 5 > Andre' Selmer wrote:
> > The major problem that I have with RBB is the fuel consumption
> > rules. Maybe I'm just a little bit bitter that in order to get our
> > Fiat Fokker to fly from Seattle to Azland we had to make 3 stops,
> > thats despite the fact that we has extra fuel tanks, expanded fuel
> > tanks and ripped out some of the seats for more fuel storage. All I
> > can say is that we where all waiting for the SAM (Which we managed to
> > dodge).
> >
> > Still there again I don't fly and know nothing about plane fuel
> > consumption!;)
>
> Unmodified the Yamaha Rapier can go 450km farther than the Cloud Nine
> on one tank of gas! Whoever heard of a motorcycle going 1200km on
> one tank of gas????
> ***Sambo***

The motorcycles in the RBB are just one example why a 2nd Ed. is really needed.
Just take the Harley Electraglide (p.66): a max speed of 285 (that's 342 kmh or
about 213 mph) and a handling of *3* (onroad)? I thought it is meant as a Highway
Patrol bike, not as a bike for pro-racing...

******************************************************************************
* There is nothing humans love as much and treat as bad as their own lives *
* -La Bruyere *
******************************************************************************

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Vehicle upgrade grades (was Re: FASA's release schedule
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:21:13 +0100

Message no. 6 Andre' Selmer said on 12:12/ 8 Aug 96...

> The major problem that I have with RBB is the fuel consumption
> rules. Maybe I'm just a little bit bitter that in order to get our
> Fiat Fokker to fly from Seattle to Azland we had to make 3 stops,
> thats despite the fact that we has extra fuel tanks, expanded fuel
> tanks and ripped out some of the seats for more fuel storage. All I
> can say is that we where all waiting for the SAM (Which we managed to
> dodge).

I agree here... Fuel consumption seems way too low for most ground
vehicles, while aircraft burn a LOT of fuel taking off. Sambo mentioned
the Yamaha Rapier driving 1200 km on a full tank; compare that to a Yamaha
GTS 1000 (modern-day bike, comparable to the Rapier in top speed and
layout) that does about 16 km/l and has a 20-liter tank...

OTOH that Fiat-Fokker gets about 750 km if you use normal take-off and
landing, and only around 250 km as VSTOL when fully loaded. That's with
normal fuel tanks, though. Extra tanks should increase that range, but
comparable modern aircraft (Claudius Dornier Steastar) have ranges of
1500 km or more when loaded.

And I'll say it: it would be nice if the RBB II of (supposedly) next year
would rectify this, but I doubt it. It will probably be building onto the
existing figures...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
one boy, one girl, comfortable lies
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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From:	bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject:	Re: Vehicle upgrade grades (was Re: FASA's release schedule
Date:	Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:26:40 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 7 >Andre' Selmer said on 12:12/ 8 Aug 96...
>
>> The major problem that I have with RBB is the fuel consumption
>> rules. Maybe I'm just a little bit bitter that in order to get our
>> Fiat Fokker to fly from Seattle to Azland we had to make 3 stops,
>> thats despite the fact that we has extra fuel tanks, expanded fuel
>> tanks and ripped out some of the seats for more fuel storage. All I
>> can say is that we where all waiting for the SAM (Which we managed to
>> dodge).
>
>I agree here... Fuel consumption seems way too low for most ground
>vehicles, while aircraft burn a LOT of fuel taking off. Sambo mentioned
>the Yamaha Rapier driving 1200 km on a full tank; compare that to a Yamaha
>GTS 1000 (modern-day bike, comparable to the Rapier in top speed and
>layout) that does about 16 km/l and has a 20-liter tank...
>
>OTOH that Fiat-Fokker gets about 750 km if you use normal take-off and
>landing, and only around 250 km as VSTOL when fully loaded. That's with
>normal fuel tanks, though. Extra tanks should increase that range, but
>comparable modern aircraft (Claudius Dornier Steastar) have ranges of
>1500 km or more when loaded.
>
>And I'll say it: it would be nice if the RBB II of (supposedly) next year
>would rectify this, but I doubt it. It will probably be building onto the
>existing figures...
>
Be thankful you don't have a shaman summoning Spirits of the Sky to fly the
group from Cleveland to Denver!!!
Hey, he's a powerful character, he burned the karma, so I allowed it.
But I certainly made life hard on him during the flight! <grin!>

From:	Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject:	RE: Re: Vehicle upgrade grades (was Re: FASA's release schedule
Date:	Sun, 11 Aug 96 19:27:16 +1100

Message no. 8 >The motorcycles in the RBB are just one example why a 2nd Ed. is really
>needed.
>Just take the Harley Electraglide (p.66): a max speed of 285 (that's 342
>kmh or
>about 213 mph) and a handling of *3* (onroad)? I thought it is meant as a
>Highway
>Patrol bike, not as a bike for pro-racing...

The Harley Electraglide is designed for high-speed pursuits in restricted
quarters. What's your point?

--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)

From:	mr.self-destruct@********.de (mr. self-destruct)
Subject:	RE: Re: Vehicle upgrade grades (was Re: FASA's release schedule
Date:	Mon, 12 Aug 96 10:37 +0100

Message no. 9 >>The motorcycles in the RBB are just one example why a 2nd Ed. is really
>>needed.
>>Just take the Harley Electraglide (p.66): a max speed of 285 (that's 342
>>kmh or
>>about 213 mph) and a handling of *3* (onroad)? I thought it is meant as a
>>Highway
>>Patrol bike, not as a bike for pro-racing...
>
>The Harley Electraglide is designed for high-speed pursuits in restricted
>quarters. What's your point?

Well, my point was that I just couldn't imagine someone (mentally) reacting to
anything like maybe just a little hole in the pavement at such high speeds, but
now as I think about it, that's what vehicle control rigs are for...
And that's what I think mailing lists are there for also: opening your mind!

******************************************************************************
* There is nothing humans love as much and treat as bad as their own lives *
* -La Bruyere *
******************************************************************************

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