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Message no. 1
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: (whatever it is now) WAS : Mages vs Shamans
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 17:33:57 -0700 (PDT)
> They were flesh and blood munchkinned-up mages who hid behind the thin veil
> of "magic is always roleplaying and can't be munchkin".

((I don't believe I ever said that magic was never munchkinous.))

> Then he'd be a roleplayed munchkin. Just like the mage.

((Pardon me, but you really don't know what you're talking about. The
mage (who is not mine for the x-th time), was played by one of the best
role-players I know, and he's alos a genius, and was constructed not to
circumvent anything, or to be 'munchkinous' but to make mages worthwhile
to play... to make them competent in combat as well as out...))

> He'd fit just as well as any overpowered mage would.

((The only chars I have ever seen that would have been considered
'overpowered' have been heavily cybered... mind you, I have never played
a mage, nor am I terribly partial to them... when I believe I'm (or
someone else) right, I'll defend that strongly))

> No side rules. He has a tactical computer, I think it was 13 sense
> enhancements, and an orientation system. He also had firearms maxxed, with
> all the toys (smartlink II, customized, reflex recorder, etc).

((Just curious, what type of init enhancement was on this chummer? The
smallest tac-com is 3 or 3.5 essence (I don't have my book). That and
any kind of wires or MBW will take more than his essence, let alone
having room for eyes/ears and a smartlink.))

> Ok, so he never spent money getting the items to do the enchanting? He
> never spent cash on better hermetic libraries? He never bought better
> lifestyle? New car? Toys for the other runners?

((He gathered enchanting materials himself. His initiate group (which
the dues for were hellish, and we're not just talking cash) had a
library. His lifestyle was upgraded to a permanent high in lieu of
payment for a (LONG) run into Aztlan that took 14 gaming sessions... the
car came with. Most of his cash was spent on helping out the other
runners.))

> >((Well, let's see here... (starting char mind you) force 6 x-barrier,
> >exclusive, ex fetish, locked... effectively force 10. Combine that with
> >say, heavy security armor, and I'm lookin' for ONES on the resistance
> >test. Or perhaps I'll gel-pack the chummer, in which case I'll take no
> >damamge whatsoever... and for those of you that don't believe I can get
> >Gel-packed heavy security armor, I'll just get it from the same place
> >that the assault cannon came from...))

> My assault cannon comes from the rulebooks. Gelpack heavy security armor
> doesn't.

((Heavy security armor : Street Samurai Catalog
Gel-Packed armor : Fields of Fire

See the two entries on those particular items if you're still
confused...))


> That defines munchkin. And you can sit behind your mega-barrier
> all day. You can't do anything in there, it's exclusive.

<>exclusive, ex fetish, *locked*... effectively force 10<>
========

((I'm sure you've heard of spel locks... which can be used to lock
exclusive spells...))

> Boy in a bubble,
> real effective character you've got there. Hell of a roleplayer too, that
> force 10 boy in a bubble. I'm impressed with you already.

((Get your head out of your ass and be sure of what you're talking about...))

> at least they can say they weren't
> powergamed behind the veil of "magical roleplaying: where everything is fine
> because it's magic". For that I applaud them.

((Do you make a habit of putting words in people's mouths, or are you
outright lying?))

---Tom---
Message no. 2
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: (whatever it is now) WAS : Mages vs Shamans
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 20:13:28 -0500
>> He'd fit just as well as any overpowered mage would.

>((The only chars I have ever seen that would have been considered
>'overpowered' have been heavily cybered... mind you, I have never played
>a mage, nor am I terribly partial to them... when I believe I'm (or
>someone else) right, I'll defend that strongly))

This is where I can't see the "light" of your statements. You've got a 10th
grade initiate and you can't call that overpowered. I don't know if I could
build a samurai to be on par for overall dice effectiveness (aka "power")
with a 10th grade initiate even if I had access to delta clinics and toys
galore (I could build one specifically designed to fight one, but that's
kinda pointless).

You're saddled with defending the mage because you brought him up and seem
quite determined to see your side of the argument through to the end. Have
you really argued or just kinda yipped a lot? Like a little spunky
terrier...yipyipyip doesn't know why, but is content to yip til his dying day.

>> No side rules. He has a tactical computer, I think it was 13 sense
>> enhancements, and an orientation system. He also had firearms maxxed, with
>> all the toys (smartlink II, customized, reflex recorder, etc).

>((Just curious, what type of init enhancement was on this chummer? The
>smallest tac-com is 3 or 3.5 essence (I don't have my book). That and
>any kind of wires or MBW will take more than his essence, let alone
>having room for eyes/ears and a smartlink.))

Synaptic Accelerator II and several reaction enhancing toys. The TacComp
also adds it's effective rating to initiative (but cannot exceed the max
initiative of the character). So he has an initiative each round between 26
and 28, or it may be higher, I don't recall.

>> Ok, so he never spent money getting the items to do the enchanting? He
>> never spent cash on better hermetic libraries? He never bought better
>> lifestyle? New car? Toys for the other runners?

>((He gathered enchanting materials himself. His initiate group (which
>the dues for were hellish, and we're not just talking cash) had a
>library.

So he dumped a lot of cash into the magical group and used a free library of
unlimited level. He also never paid for the right to go and collect
valuable magical material from the sites which he claimed it ("I'm just
going to go to the old orichalcum farm and harvest a few nuggets, the owner
won't mind"). Then there's the cost of the lab (assumed to be another free
perk of the group).

>His lifestyle was upgraded to a permanent high in lieu of
>payment for a (LONG) run into Aztlan that took 14 gaming sessions... the
>car came with. Most of his cash was spent on helping out the other
>runners.))

Permanent high lifestyle? One million nuyen is quite the payout for a run.
Especially to a single player. Albeit 14 sessions could be a lot of time
and maybe it was worth it to the paying party to drop 1M for the job to be done.

As I mentioned before, throwing money to the other characters is throwing it
away and no sane shadowrunner would do that without significant return.

>> My assault cannon comes from the rulebooks. Gelpack heavy security armor
>> doesn't.

>((Heavy security armor : Street Samurai Catalog
> Gel-Packed armor : Fields of Fire
>
> See the two entries on those particular items if you're still
>confused...))

Okay, let's see...

Gelpacks treat armor as hardened. Which heavy security armor already is.
Which means *drum roll* you've got an extra 25% weight, 5 times the base
price, and double the street index and availability for heavy security armor
(16.25+Body in kg, 60,000 nuyen base price, 6 street index -- which means a
real price of 360,000 nuyen -- and an availability of 32) and all you have
to show for it is the stats of regular heavy security armor. I'm impressed,
no really. What's this mage's strength? And every attacker loves what
happens to the combat pools of characters in armor like that...

>exclusive, ex fetish, *locked*... effectively force 10<>

>> Boy in a bubble,
>> real effective character you've got there. Hell of a roleplayer too, that
>> force 10 boy in a bubble. I'm impressed with you already.

>((Get your head out of your ass and be sure of what you're talking about...))

I am very sure of what I'm talking about here. He can't shoot through it.
He's got a TN modifier to even see through it. He can't cast any other
spells while it's up because it's exclusive. As I said before, boy in a
bubble, I'm impressed. Let me guess, he's roleplayed as the character who
just hated to have anything touch him?

>> at least they can say they weren't
>> powergamed behind the veil of "magical roleplaying: where everything is fine
>> because it's magic". For that I applaud them.

>((Do you make a habit of putting words in people's mouths, or are you
>outright lying?))

I have a habit of burning magekin's hides with every word they give me.
You're a bit singed on the left, could you turn over please? And feel free
to reply... I want more words.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 3
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: (whatever it is now) WAS : Mages vs Shamans
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 23:11:32 -0700 (PDT)
> >((The only chars I have ever seen that would have been considered
> >'overpowered' have been heavily cybered... mind you, I have never played
> >a mage, nor am I terribly partial to them... when I believe I'm (or
> >someone else) right, I'll defend that strongly))
>
> This is where I can't see the "light" of your statements. You've got a
10th
> grade initiate and you can't call that overpowered.

((Lemme change that. Sure, in YOUR campaign, this mage may be
overpowered. I'm just saying that in my four years of playing SRII, the
only chars that I have seen to unbalance the game, that is, overpowered,
have been the cyber guys.))

> I don't know if I could
> build a samurai to be on par for overall dice effectiveness (aka "power")
> with a 10th grade initiate even if I had access to delta clinics and toys
> galore (I could build one specifically designed to fight one, but that's
> kinda pointless).

((It isn't possible to directy corellate the power of two different char
types. In our campaign, my semi-cybered char is generally the most
powerful. That is, given a random situation, he has the most to
contribute. However, the mage is best at taking people down in
combat.... but not always. Max, (my cybered char) could probably beat Garth
in combat. However, a dozen mid-powered sammies would smear Max, while
Garth would take them all down in a second...))

> You're saddled with defending the mage because you brought him up and seem
> quite determined to see your side of the argument through to the end.

((That's right. If I believe that I am correct, I will argue something
all day long.))

> >((He gathered enchanting materials himself. His initiate group (which
> >the dues for were hellish, and we're not just talking cash) had a
> >library.

> So he dumped a lot of cash into the magical group and used a free library of
> unlimited level...

((Which he had to justify the use of each time he wanted it... or the head
of the group would not allow it... "Um, yessir... no sir, I'm not
planning on doing <whatever>, I realize that such things would break the
strictures of the group. Yessir, I'm researching a more powerful
stunbolt... yessir, so I can take down other mages easier without killing
them...))

<that last statement brings me to another thing that I'll get to later...>

> He also never paid for the right to go and collect
> valuable magical material from the sites which he claimed it ("I'm just
> going to go to the old orichalcum farm and harvest a few nuggets, the owner
> won't mind").

((No. He did several favors (read : 'runs) for the different Cascade
tribes, and some members of the NAN for the use of their land...))

> Then there's the cost of the lab (assumed to be another free
> perk of the group).

((That he bought himself. Its in the sub-level of his house, a couple
miles into the tribal lands... <I think, he's not my char...>))

> >His lifestyle was upgraded to a permanent high in lieu of
> >payment for a (LONG) run into Aztlan that took 14 gaming sessions... the
> >car came with. Most of his cash was spent on helping out the other
> >runners.))
>
> Permanent high lifestyle? One million nuyen is quite the payout for a run.
> Especially to a single player. Albeit 14 sessions could be a lot of time
> and maybe it was worth it to the paying party to drop 1M for the job to
> be done.

((Beta wires? Tactical computer? Cultured bioware? Yup... (those were
just examples of things that could have come out of that run...) Yeah, 1
mil is alot of cash... but over a month of game time went by on this
run... and the opposition was in the class of (toxic) Blood Spirits and
varios Aztechnology guards...))

> As I mentioned before, throwing money to the other characters is throwing it
> away and no sane shadowrunner would do that without significant return.

((As I said before. An investment in the team. Yeah, very significant
return... a job better done, and an easier time doing it...))

> > Heavy security armor : Street Samurai Catalog
> > Gel-Packed armor : Fields of Fire

> Gelpacks treat armor as hardened. Which heavy security armor already is.

((AFAIK, h-security armore isn't hardened... the only armor that is, is
Military armor out of FOF. Anyway, the point is, the armor is/would be
hardened... either way, between that and the barrier spell, the cannon
round stops.))

> I am very sure of what I'm talking about here. He can't shoot through it.
> He's got a TN modifier to even see through it.

((He's only got a +1 to see through it, which centering can remove.))

> He can't cast any other spells while it's up because it's exclusive.

((Exclusivity or no, it doesn't matter, once he locks it.))

> I have a habit of burning magekin's hides with every word they give me.
> You're a bit singed on the left, could you turn over please? And feel free
> to reply... I want more words.

((I now see the difference between the two of us. I argue because I
believe I'm right. You argue simply to twist other people around, and to
fuck with what they say in such a manner that it has no bearing on the
discussion... which is what you're doing. I'm no magekin (whatever the
hell that means, but I can guess), in fact, I've never even played a
mage. If you're going to 'burn' somebody, be sure of who you're talking
to and what you're talking about, or take your burning elsewhere.))

---Tom---
Message no. 4
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: (whatever it is now) WAS : Mages vs Shamans
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 15:27:10 -0500
>> He can't cast any other spells while it's up because it's exclusive.

>((Exclusivity or no, it doesn't matter, once he locks it.))

Sure it does. It quite clearly states in SRII that exclusive spells can be
active if and only if no other spells are in use. In no rules supplement
since then is it stated that spell locks are an exception. Therfore, they
aren't.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: RE: (whatever it is now) WAS : Mages vs Shamans
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:17:17 +1030
>>((Exclusivity or no, it doesn't matter, once he locks it.))
>
>Sure it does. It quite clearly states in SRII that exclusive spells can be
>active if and only if no other spells are in use. In no rules supplement
>since then is it stated that spell locks are an exception. Therfore, they
>aren't.

You got it... Enchanting is a magical procedure. You can not do other
magical activities whilst using an exclusive spell.

--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.

Further Reading

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