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Message no. 1
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shapeshifters
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 16:50:47 EDT
I have been hit by a number of things in my shadowrun game recently about my shapeshifter.
I am looking to gather your officially refenced 2050 opinions please.

1. In human form do shifters have fully developed average human sweat glands?

2. Are there any known occurances of regenerative abilites in shifters in their human
form?

3. Which countries recognize shapeshifters as citizens in the year 2050?

4. Which countries reconize shapeshifters as part of metahumanity and not just animals?

5. What types of shifters other than wolves exsist in SR?

6. According to official 2050 SR plots what kind of experiments are being done on
shifters by which corps.?

7. In official 2050 SR are shifters considered and endangered species or if not what
percentage of the population do shifters represent?

Thanks for the assist.
Tinne
Message no. 2
From: Scott Harrison Scott_Harrison@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shapeshifters
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 17:40:27 -0400
In a message from LDYTinne@***.com
dated Tue, 08 Aug 2000 16:50:47 -0400 (EDT), my mailer made me see:

-> I have been hit by a number of things in my shadowrun game recently about my
shapeshifter. I am looking to gather your officially refenced 2050 opinions please.
->
-> 1. In human form do shifters have fully developed average human sweat glands?
->
-> 2. Are there any known occurances of regenerative abilites in shifters in their
human form?
->
-> 3. Which countries recognize shapeshifters as citizens in the year 2050?
->
-> 4. Which countries reconize shapeshifters as part of metahumanity and not just
animals?
->
-> 5. What types of shifters other than wolves exsist in SR?
->
-> 6. According to official 2050 SR plots what kind of experiments are being done on
shifters by which corps.?
->
-> 7. In official 2050 SR are shifters considered and endangered species or if not
what percentage of the population do shifters represent?
->
-> Thanks for the assist.
-> Tinne
->
->

1. I would imagine sweat glands are normal. The question is whether sense of smell
is limited to human norm.

2. In SR2, human form does not regenerate. In SR3, human form regenerates. You need
either Companion to know the rules for shapeshifters.

3. Yeah right! :-)

4. Shapeshifters are animals! Therefore, none. However, people may say the NAN
might recognize them.

5. Tiger, bear, fox, eagle, seal.

6. I do not know.

7. Endangered. I would imagine the same type of percentages that vampires represent.
Of course, local variations exist. In other words, no real percentage.

--
Scott Harrison
Message no. 3
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shapeshifters
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:53:41 -0500
:I have been hit by a number of things in my shadowrun game recently about
my shapeshifter. I am looking to gather your officially refenced 2050
opinions please.
:
:1. In human form do shifters have fully developed average human sweat
glands?

Most likely- thier human forms are "fully functional" in all other ways.

:2. Are there any known occurances of regenerative abilites in shifters in
their human form?


Yep, lots of them. Shadowrun Companion, p. 37- "Shapeshifters cn
regenrate in both human and animal form."

:3. Which countries recognize shapeshifters as citizens in the year 2050?


Amazonia would be the big one. If Yamatetsu has any national ties, you
can be that nation at least grants citizenship to specially aproved
shifters. I think both Tirs also do that. Aztlan either has jaguar shifter
citzens, or if they hunt them for thier skins- I can't recall which.

:4. Which countries reconize shapeshifters as part of metahumanity and not
just animals?

Afaik, none of them. Shifters don;t consider THEMSELVES metahuman- why
would they want a country to do so?

:5. What types of shifters other than wolves exsist in SR?


The SRC offers Bear, Eagle, Fox, Leopard, Seal, Tiger, and Wolf shifters
as possible PC races.

:6. According to official 2050 SR plots what kind of experiments are being
done on shifters by which corps.?


The only one I've heard menationed is that some "particularly sadistic
governments" experiment with implantig cyber to keep shifters in human form.
Sounds like Aztlan.

:7. In official 2050 SR are shifters considered and endangered species or
if not what percentage of the population do shifters represent?


They are probably not any more endagered than thier base species, being
awakened members there of. Its never been mentioned, afaik, what portion of
a species are shifters, but I'd guess not more tha 1 in 1000, and thats for
species that ARE endagerd- the shifters often try to protect the species
habitat.

Sebastian

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Message no. 4
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Your official rules views on shapeshifters
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:03:29 +0200
According to LDYTinne@***.com, at 16:50 on 8 Aug 00, the word on the
street was...

> 1. In human form do shifters have fully developed average human sweat
> glands?

I would assume so, but this is the sort of detail you don't often find in
game books so you can rule either way for your campaign.

> 2. Are there any known occurances of regenerative abilites in
> shifters in their human form?

In the stats, it says they have Regeneration power without it being
mentioned that it's limited to the animal form. My conclusion is that they
can regenerate in either form.

> 3. Which countries recognize shapeshifters as citizens in the year
> 2050?

The UCAS doesn't, is all I know; the NAN may be likely to, but I don't
think this is mentioned anywhere.

> 4. Which countries reconize shapeshifters as part of metahumanity and
> not just animals?

See above. You have to remember is that shapeshifters are born as animals,
not as humans, BTW.

> 5. What types of shifters other than wolves exsist in SR?

Bear, eagle, fox, seal, tiger, and something called a warek (West-African
leopard). If it were up to me, there'd be shapeshifter variants of just
about any animal that's large enough -- cow shapeshifters are just too
cool to not have ;)

> 6. According to official 2050 SR plots what kind of experiments are
> being done on shifters by which corps.?

Nothing about this is mentioned either, AFAIK. The meat-and-fur industry
idea proposed on the list a few months ago is pretty plausible, though.

> 7. In official 2050 SR are shifters considered and endangered species
> or if not what percentage of the population do shifters represent?

You are asking questions that go far too deep for official source material
to answer :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Your official rules views on shapeshifters
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:01:31 +0200
LDYTinne@***.com wrote:
>
> I have been hit by a number of things in my shadowrun game recently about my
shapeshifter. I am looking to gather your officially refenced 2050 opinions please.
>
> 1. In human form do shifters have fully developed average human sweat glands?
>
Officialy not stated

> 2. Are there any known occurances of regenerative abilites in shifters in their
human form?

this depens on edition and if its an NPC or PC shifter.

NPC shifter always regen. PC shifter in SR2 only in animal form, in sr3 in
both forms.
>


--
Barbie - Prayers are like junkmail for Jesus

I have seen things you lusers would not believe.
I've seen Sun monitors on fire off the side of the multimedia lab.
I've seen NTU lights glitter in the dark near the Mail Gate.
All these things will be lost in time, like the root partition last week.
Time to die.

barbie@********.de http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie/index.html
Message no. 6
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shapeshifters
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 14:36:37 -0700
At 12:03 PM 8/9/00 +0200, Gurth wrote:

<snip lotsostuff>
>cow shapeshifters are just too
>cool to not have ;)
>

I can see it now, the cow shapeshifter on a run....the team passes through
the lobby of the corps headquarters, which is nicely designed to look like
a pastoral countryside....it's an elf owned company, perhaps.

Cow Shapeshifter: Uh, guys, could we stop here for a second?

Rest of Team: Why?

Cow SS: I'm hungry, he says as he proceeds to walk over to the nicely
manicured lawn, and proceeds to munch on some grass...

Heh.


Anyways, LadyTinne, one thing I noticed in your questions...official SR
canon is now 2060 as per SR 3. Not that it makes alot of difference, but,
there are some changes. For example, as bioware wasn't really marketed
until 2054 (IIRC), runners in 2050 can't have bioware. Unless the GM
changes things, of course....

Dave
Message no. 7
From: C J Tipton arkades@****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 18:29:57 -0500
As Tinne is away from her mail just now, and I'm in her game, I suppose I
could clarify.

YES, 2050. NO FUCKING MISPRINT. We are aware of the official time line
and have begun a game in 2050 in order to
be able to allow the players to involve themselves in the SR game world
in a "No shit, I was there..." format.
This is also enables the GMs to create a story free from what comes next
in FAA unacceptably sketchy production schedule according to the official
time line. 2050 in the Free City of Berlin. And of course it is quickly
turning into an international game.

Thus:

1. What problems, if any, do shifters have travelling on
airliners(tickets, customs, do they have to be in a pet carrier...)?

2. If they are not offered citizenship, what difficulties do they face
crossing international borders?

3. How does the law deal with criminal shifters( Animal Control, have
them put to sleep...)?

4. Can it be reasonably assumed that the rate of manifestation of shape
shifters among their home species is roughly
the same as the rate of occurrence of a specific metatype among
humans?

5. What, if any, regulations might their be to prevent government or
corporate experimentation on shifters?

More questions will be added later of course. Please feel free to answer
this post with a " this is what we do in our game", as I am aware of just
how little canon material is available on shifters, even though they are
allowed as a PC race. Any canon references would also be appreciated
however, as I may well have overlooked something.

COWBOY(ropes the cow shifter and gets sued for sexual harassment)
CJ
arkades@****.com

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Message no. 8
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:38:07 +0200
According to C J Tipton, at 18:29 on 9 Aug 00, the word on the street
was...

> 1. What problems, if any, do shifters have travelling on
> airliners(tickets, customs, do they have to be in a pet carrier...)?

I'd say plenty of trouble. Airports tend to have security magicians on
staff, so the shapeshifter would have to be an initiated magician to hide
the fact that he/she/it is a shapeshifter... I guess the only time they
wouldn't have problems, is when travelling from a country that recognizes
them as people, to a similar country; otherwise, they'll be seen as
animals in one or both places, and thus refused entry. (After all, you
can't just take dogs, cats, horses, or whatever with you on a plane.)

That said, I allow shapeshifters (and any other sentient paranormals) to
spend Karma to basically initiate a grade to get Masking power. As this
hasn't actually happened in my game yet, I haven't had to set a Karma cost
for it, but self-initiation without ordeal seems a good starting point,
perhaps increasing the multiplier by a half or a whole point even.

> 2. If they are not offered citizenship, what difficulties do they face
> crossing international borders?

See above -- they're animals, so they would have to conform to the rules
for carrying animals on a plane.

> 3. How does the law deal with criminal shifters( Animal Control, have
> them put to sleep...)?

Probably depends on how dangerous they are, but hey, they can be killed
without any crime being committed, so that'll probably be a common
solution. (As for how: strap it down and cut its head off -- injecting it
with a poison or shooting it will likely not work...)

> 4. Can it be reasonably assumed that the rate of manifestation of shape
> shifters among their home species is roughly
> the same as the rate of occurrence of a specific metatype among
> humans?

Heh. No. There's about 40% metahumans, IIRC; having two out of every five
bears be shapeshifters would be hell on the NAN... I'd say it' s a very
low percentage, in the order of 1% or less.

> 5. What, if any, regulations might their be to prevent government or
> corporate experimentation on shifters?

Treat them as dangerous animals, I guess. If a tiger shapeshifter walks
into a city, you treat it like you would a loose tiger in that same city,
keeping in mind that this one heals really fast so it's even nore
dangerous.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:10:00 +0200
CJ Tipton said:

<snip>

> 1. What problems, if any, do shifters have travelling on
> airliners(tickets, customs, do they have to be in a pet carrier...)?

From the point of the law, shapeshifters are animals -> things.
Therefore, if it's allowed to possess a shapeshifter as a (kind of...)
pet, the owner could take it whereever it's allowed to do so.

> 2. If they are not offered citizenship, what difficulties do they face
> crossing international borders?

None, IMHO. As long as they behave as any other animal, which
means not to take a plane, ship, bus, train, whatever without a "owner".

> 3. How does the law deal with criminal shifters( Animal Control, have
> them put to sleep...)?

As with aggressive dogs and the like, as long as shapeshifters
do not fall under "endangered wildlife".

> 4. Can it be reasonably assumed that the rate of manifestation of
> shape shifters among their home species is roughly the same as the
> rate of occurrence of a specific metatype among humans?

I really hope that's not the case :)

> 5. What, if any, regulations might their be to prevent government or
> corporate experimentation on shifters?

Well, if shapeshifters are an endangered species, I don't think
they'll be used as labor rats :) . And the mere cost of aquiring one
doesn't make it realistic, IMO.

Arclight
Message no. 10
From: Walter Scheper ratlaw@*********.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 08:33:37 -0400
On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:10:00 +0200, "Arclight" <arclight@*********.de>
wrote:

>
> CJ Tipton said:
>
><snip>
>
>> 1. What problems, if any, do shifters have travelling on
>> airliners(tickets, customs, do they have to be in a pet carrier...)?
>
> From the point of the law, shapeshifters are animals -> things.
>Therefore, if it's allowed to possess a shapeshifter as a (kind of...)
>pet, the owner could take it whereever it's allowed to do so.
>
[snip other points]
>Arclight
>
If that is the case, that you can "own" a shapeshifter as a pet, are
you then responsible for his/her actions. For example, if your
vicious guard dog breaks out of whatever area he's supposed to be
guarding and mauls some jogger you're legally responsible, IIRC. So,
who wants to step up for the legal responsibility of their "pet"
shapeshifter's rampage across downtown Seattle? :)

That is all
-Walter
ICQ: 83513580
Message no. 11
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:33:47 +0200
From Walter Scheper :

> > From the point of the law, shapeshifters are animals -> things.
> > Therefore, if it's allowed to possess a shapeshifter as a
> > (kind of...) pet, the owner could take it whereever it's allowed
> > to do so.
>
> If that is the case, that you can "own" a shapeshifter as a pet, are
> you then responsible for his/her actions.

Absolutely :)

> For example, if your
> vicious guard dog breaks out of whatever area he's supposed to be
> guarding and mauls some jogger you're legally responsible, IIRC. So,
> who wants to step up for the legal responsibility of their "pet"
> shapeshifter's rampage across downtown Seattle? :)

Someone who gets paid by the shapeshifter? Just take a hefty
sum of cred, walk to the next innocent bystanderTM and say

"What if you could visit good old europe for free?" or the like.

Arclight
Message no. 12
From: Scott Harrison Scott_Harrison@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:53:10 -0400
In a message from C J Tipton <arkades@****.com>
dated Wed, 09 Aug 2000 18:29:57 -0500, my mailer made me see:

->
-> 1. What problems, if any, do shifters have travelling on
-> airliners(tickets, customs, do they have to be in a pet carrier...)?

The shifter is considered an animal by most. Therefore, any travel would fall under
the rules of transporting a dangerous animal. Even in human form, the animal is
detectable by aura unless the shifter can mask its aura, and then it is still detectable
by a good enough mage.

->
-> 2. If they are not offered citizenship, what difficulties do they face
-> crossing international borders?

If they are detected as an animal, the difficulties associated with transporting a
dangerous animal across borders. If they are in human form, they need to have the
appropriate documentation (forged if need be since they are most likely SINless).

->
-> 3. How does the law deal with criminal shifters( Animal Control, have
-> them put to sleep...)?

Typically most governments do not tolerate them and they are taken away. Most
assume they are killed. However, some governments may experiment upon them. Entering
corp territory is similar in that some corps may terminate them, others may play with
them.

->
-> 4. Can it be reasonably assumed that the rate of manifestation of shape
-> shifters among their home species is roughly
-> the same as the rate of occurrence of a specific metatype among
-> humans?

No. Shapeshifters are very rare. I would put the shifter percentage among its own
species to be no more than 1 in 1000.

->
-> 5. What, if any, regulations might their be to prevent government or
-> corporate experimentation on shifters?
->

Assuming the government considers a shifter to be an animal, the government can do
whatever experimentation it wants on animals using the appropriate laws. For example, we
experiment on rats without too much difficulty. If the government considers a shifter to
be a person, then the laws are suddenly different. However, the shifter would most likely
be a SINless person and therefore, subject to a lot more hassle than a citizen.

All in all, it is difficult going about life as a shifter in society. The shifter
character does not belong in society because it is a beast and does not understand
society's rules. I find that playing one (a tiger) makes for interesting party
interaction. They really hate it when I go off and eat things (especially before the party
has a chance to interrogate). The society wants to destroy the shifter because it is a
beast, and history has known that shifters can go about killing people without too much
problem. Going through any type of security is a pain in the butt if there is magical
security. Just try passing through a ward, because being dual-natured has its problems.

Sorry. Enough of my babble.

--
Scott Harrison
Message no. 13
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:58:25 -0500
Gurth said
>> 3. How does the law deal with criminal shifters( Animal Control, have
>> them put to sleep...)?

>Probably depends on how dangerous they are, but hey, they can be killed
>without any crime being committed, so that'll probably be a common
>solution. (As for how: strap it down and cut its head off -- injecting it
>with a poison or shooting it will likely not work...)

That's not quite true. I can't just walk out my door, see a wandering
dear I don;t like (we have those in Minneapolis), and kill it, even if the
weapon I use is legal. Generally, unless you have a permit of some sort
(hunting, biological specimin collection), you can't kill any animal except
in self defense. Once authorities decided the animal was a danger and that
there was no other way to deal with it, then it might be killed, but
generally Police and Animal control agencies are required to preserve animal
life when safe and practical, and "green" nations like the NAN might take
this to some lengths- Tir Tairngere takes it to rediculous lengths, in some
cases, iirc. In the case of a Shadowrunning Shapeshifter, it probably won;t
matter, either because they won't know its an animal until its dead, or
because it isn't practical to wait for a safe capture.
Note also that, since a shapeshifter isn't human, it can't be a
criminal. That MIGHT work to the shapeshifters advantage sometimes, since
the authorities might not network thier dangerous animal records with crime
reports...

Mongoose


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Message no. 14
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 00:34:48 +0200
> Note also that, since a shapeshifter isn't human, it can't be a
> criminal. That MIGHT work to the shapeshifters advantage sometimes, since
> the authorities might not network thier dangerous animal records with
crime
> reports...

Sure it can. I saw this show on National Geographic channel where a bear was
accused of Breaking and entering, vandalism of private property, and some
more accusations, and after being put to a zoo and escaping for 3 times
(Wait - maybe we have a case of real world shapeshifters? :) ) It was put to
'sleep'. God I hate it when they use that term for murder.

-Nimster
I heard life sucks, that's why I'm glad I don't have it.
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:51:52 +0200
According to Sebastian Wiers, at 15:58 on 10 Aug 00, the word on the
street was...

> That's not quite true. I can't just walk out my door, see a wandering
> dear I don;t like (we have those in Minneapolis), and kill it, even if the
> weapon I use is legal. Generally, unless you have a permit of some sort
> (hunting, biological specimin collection), you can't kill any animal except
> in self defense.

But what are the penalties for killing an animal if you don't have such a
permit? You certainly won't get 25 to life like you would if you killed a
human...

Also, wouldn't it depend on the type of animal? I mean, shooting a deer
would be hunting, but slaughtering (say) a pig you raised in your back
yard wouldn't need a permit, would it? (Beyond maybe one to keep farm
animals in city limits, if that's required in the US.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:51:52 +0200
According to Sebastian Wiers, at 15:58 on 10 Aug 00, the word on the
street was...

> That's not quite true. I can't just walk out my door, see a wandering
> dear I don;t like (we have those in Minneapolis), and kill it, even if the
> weapon I use is legal. Generally, unless you have a permit of some sort
> (hunting, biological specimin collection), you can't kill any animal except
> in self defense.

But what are the penalties for killing an animal if you don't have such a
permit? You certainly won't get 25 to life like you would if you killed a
human...

Also, wouldn't it depend on the type of animal? I mean, shooting a deer
would be hunting, but slaughtering (say) a pig you raised in your back
yard wouldn't need a permit, would it? (Beyond maybe one to keep farm
animals in city limits, if that's required in the US.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:06:01 -0400
But what are the penalties for killing an animal if you don't have such a
permit? You certainly won't get 25 to life like you would if you killed a
human...



If something is declared a dangerous animal, I would imagine that not only
would the person who killed it not be cited a criminal, they may even be
seen as the town hero for disposing of said threat. Of course that's just
IMHO, and it may be more likely a scenario in a small town than say in a big
city where the local cops/Star might not like to be outdone. Just the way I
would role it...
Message no. 18
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shapeshifters
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:31:00 GMT
>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>According to LDYTinne@***.com, at 16:50 on 8 Aug 00, the word on the
>street was...

> > 3. Which countries recognize shapeshifters as citizens in the year
> > 2050?
>
>The UCAS doesn't, is all I know; the NAN may be likely to, but I don't
>think this is mentioned anywhere.

There is Siberia, I don't have 'Smuggler Havens to hand right now so I can't
tell you exactly, but they have a lot of 'shifters on their side.

> > 4. Which countries reconize shapeshifters as part of metahumanity and
> > not just animals?
>
>See above. You have to remember is that shapeshifters are born as animals,
>not as humans, BTW.

They are sentient so some nations may grant them citizenships, but they
_are_ animals which can pretend to be humans.

> > 5. What types of shifters other than wolves exsist in SR?
>
>Bear, eagle, fox, seal, tiger, and something called a warek (West-African
>leopard). If it were up to me, there'd be shapeshifter variants of just
>about any animal that's large enough -- cow shapeshifters are just too
>cool to not have ;)

I once wrote up a huge list of 'shifter types (which IIRC I submitted to the
NAGEE, so I won't post it here). The parazoology SOTA will undoubtedly
throw up some more types.

> > 6. According to official 2050 SR plots what kind of experiments are
> > being done on shifters by which corps.?
>
>Nothing about this is mentioned either, AFAIK. The meat-and-fur industry
>idea proposed on the list a few months ago is pretty plausible, though.

Something that struck me about shapeshifters regenerating; if you eat some
shapeshifter meat will it keep on regenerating and thus providing you with
sustinance forever?

Phil
Let us assume we have a can opener.
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Message no. 19
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:40:26 -0500
on 8/10/00 2:53 PM, Scott Harrison at Scott_Harrison@*****.com e-scribed:

> -> 2. If they are not offered citizenship, what difficulties do they face
> -> crossing international borders?
>
> If they are detected as an animal, the difficulties associated with
> transporting a dangerous animal across borders. If they are in human form,
> they need to have the appropriate documentation (forged if need be since they
> are most likely SINless).

Important word here: dangerous. We're not talking about a kitty cat, here.

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 20
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:40:26 -0500
on 8/10/00 3:58 PM, Sebastian Wiers at m0ng005e@*****.com e-scribed:

>>> 3. How does the law deal with criminal shifters( Animal Control, have
>>> them put to sleep...)?
>
>> Probably depends on how dangerous they are, but hey, they can be killed
>> without any crime being committed, so that'll probably be a common
>> solution. (As for how: strap it down and cut its head off -- injecting it
>> with a poison or shooting it will likely not work...)
>
> That's not quite true. I can't just walk out my door, see a wandering
> dear I don;t like (we have those in Minneapolis), and kill it, even if the
> weapon I use is legal. Generally, unless you have a permit of some sort
> (hunting, biological specimin collection), you can't kill any animal except
> in self defense.

And in fact, you might have to prove it was self-defense. A friend of mine
near here had a bear trashing his yard. He called the DNR, and they said,
"All you can do is go out & make a lot of noise." He was a prisoner in his
house while it destroyed his property.

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 21
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 19:15:38 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Gryphon <webmaster@*********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, August 12, 2000 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: Your official rules views on shape shifters



>And in fact, you might have to prove it was self-defense. A friend of mine
>near here had a bear trashing his yard. He called the DNR, and they said,
>"All you can do is go out & make a lot of noise"

What, like screams of pain and wet gurgling noises?
Message no. 22
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 19:55:48 +0200
According to Andrew Gryphon, at 0:40 on 12 Aug 00, the word on the street
was...

> And in fact, you might have to prove it was self-defense. A friend of mine
> near here had a bear trashing his yard. He called the DNR, and they said,
> "All you can do is go out & make a lot of noise." He was a prisoner in
his
> house while it destroyed his property.

"It's coming straight for us!" is all you need to shout... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: hivemind hivemind@********.rr.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 13:50:08 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Your official rules views on shape shifters
| According to Andrew Gryphon, at 0:40 on 12 Aug 00, the word on the street
| was...
|
| > And in fact, you might have to prove it was self-defense. A friend of
mine
| > near here had a bear trashing his yard. He called the DNR, and they
said,
| > "All you can do is go out & make a lot of noise." He was a prisoner
in
his
| > house while it destroyed his property.
|
| "It's coming straight for us!" is all you need to shout... :)
|


ROTFLMAO!!!

hivemind

It usually takes more than three weeks to prepare a good impromptu
speech. -- Mark Twain
Message no. 24
From: Fyre - AKA Colin fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 23:48:35 +0100
Okay: I have some opinions and some questions of my own so here goes:

Am I right in thinking that the corps want shifters to experiment on?
Hence if it is found-out that someone is a shifter there may well be a
swarm of messages from greedy on-lookers to various corps saying 'I know
where to get a shifter if you give me 100,000 Nuyen'?

Would you allow a starting character to buy the masking technique using
starting character points? Or would you allow a character to start as an
initiate?

Shifter numbers: Rare as rare can be. I'd be surprised if two shifters
ever met let-alone two shifters of the same species.

Don't say that shifters should not be treated like animals: They are
animals. I would only allow shifters if I knew that the player would
play the character like an animal or at the very least with strong
animal tendencies. I myself have a shifter character (eagle sky father
shaman) I'm waiting to play who _rarely_ assumes human form.

As for protection: Imagine equal laws then as there are now, then take
the fact that the world is corrupt and the corps would do anything to
get the edge.

Also: Some people don't play friendly PCs. Don't think it's safe to tell
the rest of the team that you're a shifter: they run the shadows for
money after all (well, mostly). Perhaps the gift of a shifter could calm
even the most pissed-off corp (getting them off the group's tail) hence
saving their ass.

If a shifter is to survive, FWIH, it must stay secret. Although that
does suck and, over-all, the GM's word goes. (hence perhaps the corps
have enough shifters and aren't taking any more ;) )

Finally: What good sites for email based shadowrun games are there?
There are, unfortunately, a lack of people running shadowrun around here
and I want to test out my eagle ;)

DarkFyre
--
fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Message no. 25
From: Fyre - AKA Colin fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:07:19 +0100
In article <NEBBKAJOMLOMCOOKPPBAIEOGCBAA.arclight@*********.de>,
Arclight <arclight@*********.de> writes

<snip>

Okay: One thing which may be wrong:
'It is easy to tell that a shifter is a shifter from their dual nature.'
Imagine this: You are on a run; you meet someone who has the astral form
of a bear. What are they?

It's far more easy to believe that a human follows the totem of the bear
(or even simply wishes to be seen as a bear/other animal on the astral
plane) and is astrally perceiving than that they are a shifter. Also,
unless the observer knows about paranormal animals they are unlikely to
know about shifters hence what-else could it be?
>
>> 3. How does the law deal with criminal shifters( Animal Control, have
>> them put to sleep...)?
>
> As with aggressive dogs and the like, as long as shapeshifters
>do not fall under "endangered wildlife".

They are highly unlikely to be put into jail anyway. If I were a shifter
I'd do my best to make people think I were either an animal or a
human... Not both.

Also they tent to underestimate animals when it comes to cages and
magical abilities.
>
>> 4. Can it be reasonably assumed that the rate of manifestation of
>> shape shifters among their home species is roughly the same as the
>> rate of occurrence of a specific metatype among humans?
>
> I really hope that's not the case :)

Think rare as hell. In fact: Rarer. Much, Much rarer.
>
>> 5. What, if any, regulations might their be to prevent government or
>> corporate experimentation on shifters?
>
> Well, if shapeshifters are an endangered species, I don't think
>they'll be used as labor rats :) . And the mere cost of aquiring one
>doesn't make it realistic, IMO.

Think Otaku. The corps are eager as hell to get their hands on some in
order to find out how they do it. It's the same with shifters. Simply
because it's endangered/illegal/furry dosen't mean the corps won't
experiment on it. I suspect that there are rules to protect shifters,
but they'd be the same laws to protect animals.

DarkFyre
--
fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Message no. 26
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shapeshifters
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 23:57:56 -0500
on 8/11/00 1:31 PM, Phil Smith at phil_urbanhell@*******.com e-scribed:

> Something that struck me about shapeshifters regenerating; if you eat some
> shapeshifter meat will it keep on regenerating and thus providing you with
> sustinance forever?

I'll answer that question w/ a question: if you cut off a shifter's arm,
will it grow a new shifter? Therein, you'll find your answer. Nice try. :^]

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 27
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 19:16:00 EDT
In a message dated Thu, 10 Aug 2000 8:34:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
"Arclight" <arclight@*********.de> writes:

<<
From Walter Scheper :

> > From the point of the law, shapeshifters are animals -> things.
> > Therefore, if it's allowed to possess a shapeshifter as a
> > (kind of...) pet, the owner could take it whereever it's allowed
> > to do so.
>
> If that is the case, that you can "own" a shapeshifter as a pet, are
> you then responsible for his/her actions.

Absolutely :)

My question then becomes... Is the shifter a slave?... or what then is her metahuman form
social standing? What I have heard is that you are saying that in the case of shifters
slavery is legal in the various countries that would not recognize shifters? Would that
assesment be correct?

2nd - If the shifter in wolf form has all her shots and appropriate papers, she should not
have any problem traveling doggie class in an animal carrier? Especially if another
runner is traveling people class and treats said shifter as a pet? Correct? There would
be no passport required? Especially if she masks, yes?

Tinne


>>
Message no. 28
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:01:45 +1200 (NZST)
On Sun, 20 Aug 2000 LDYTinne@***.com wrote:

> 2nd - If the shifter in wolf form has all her shots and appropriate papers, she
should not have any problem traveling doggie class in an animal carrier? Especially if
another runner is traveling people class and treats said shifter as a pet? Correct?
There would be no passport required? Especially if she masks, yes?

[ack, single bleeding line...]
The trouble with shifters masking is that they're still present on the
astral (being dual natured), so anyone looking closely at all will notice
that "hey, that perfectly normal wolf is looking at me astrally!"

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 29
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:15:48 +0200
According to LDYTinne@***.com, at 19:16 on 20 Aug 00, the word on the
street was...

> My question then becomes... Is the shifter a slave?... or what then is
> her metahuman form social standing? What I have heard is that you are
> saying that in the case of shifters slavery is legal in the various
> countries that would not recognize shifters? Would that assesment be
> correct?

Slavery is the owning of one human by another. As shapeshifters are not
humans, they cannot be slaves; if they were, then horses, cows, sheep, and
any other animal kept in captivity to do or produce stuff for humans would
be a slave as well. However, a horse pulling a cart is called a work
horse, not a slave horse :)

> 2nd - If the shifter in wolf form has all her shots and appropriate
> papers, she should not have any problem traveling doggie class in an
> animal carrier?

I'd say there wouldn't be a problem with that, no. Just remember that
"appropriate papers" may include permits for transporting wild animals or
endangered species.

> Especially if another runner is traveling people class and treats said
> shifter as a pet? Correct? There would be no passport required?

Does your cat or dog require a passport for travel to country X? If so,
then a wolf shapeshifter would as well. Otherwise, no, none is needed.

> Especially if she masks, yes?

With Masking, it would be a normal wolf (unless you're unlucky enough to
come across an initiated customs magician who rolls well enough).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shapeshifters
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 23:32:03 -0700 (PDT)
> > Something that struck me about shapeshifters
regenerating; if you eat some shapeshifter meat will
it keep on regenerating and thus providing you with
sustinance forever?
>
> I'll answer that question w/ a question: if you cut
off a shifter's arm, will it grow a new shifter?
Therein, you'll find your answer. Nice try. :^]
> Andrew Gryphon

Okay, then try this on for...ummm...size (excuse the
pun :) ).

What if a troll ate a fox shapeshifter more or less
whole? They're not so big in fox form and a
shapeshifter could (theoretically) survive being
mashed small enough for the troll to eat in a few bites.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 31
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Your official rules views on shapeshifters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:21:05 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: Your official rules views on shapeshifters


>> > Something that struck me about shapeshifters
>regenerating; if you eat some shapeshifter meat will
>it keep on regenerating and thus providing you with
>sustinance forever?
>>
>> I'll answer that question w/ a question: if you cut
>off a shifter's arm, will it grow a new shifter?
>Therein, you'll find your answer. Nice try. :^]
>> Andrew Gryphon
>
>Okay, then try this on for...ummm...size (excuse the
>pun :) ).
>
>What if a troll ate a fox shapeshifter more or less
>whole? They're not so big in fox form and a
>shapeshifter could (theoretically) survive being
>mashed small enough for the troll to eat in a few bites.
>


Depends on if the troll swallowed the fox to catch the cat, after swallowing
the cat to catch the bird, which was swallowed to eat the spider that was
sent in to get the fly.
If that is the case, perhaps she'll die.
If not, cooked meat sits in your gut for up to four days, uncooked meat
would take even longer to digest away, I'd say that the werefox would heal
any mastication damage very quickly and proceed to chew its way out with
almost no ill effects from the stomach acids. Even so, eventually it would
leave the stomach, and if you think childbirth is painful, imagine shitting
a live fox.
Message no. 32
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:14:19 EDT
In a message dated Mon, 21 Aug 2000 5:12:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Gurth"
<gurth@******.nl> writes:


> My question then becomes... Is the shifter a slave?... or what then is
> her metahuman form social standing? What I have heard is that you are
> saying that in the case of shifters slavery is legal in the various
> countries that would not recognize shifters? Would that assesment be
> correct?

Slavery is the owning of one human by another. As shapeshifters are not
humans, they cannot be slaves; if they were, then horses, cows, sheep, and
any other animal kept in captivity to do or produce stuff for humans would
be a slave as well. However, a horse pulling a cart is called a work
horse, not a slave horse :)

So, hear me out here... So you are saying that in another case of a sentient race (for
the purposes of counterpoint)in SR, say for example a sentient lizard, say a dragon was (a
younger one for the point of argument) was captured by Taminous and successfully sold to
serve a master; then because the dragon is not a human, nor a metahuman (which I believe
that a shifter would have to be considered) he could not be recognized as a slave legally.
Thus gaining freedom from the situation he was in through legal channels would be
imposible, because it was not defined as slavery. This is because the dragon is most
definetly not human and distictively an awakened sentient lizard, thus just an animal in a
cage. Is this what you mean when you say that the sentient occasionally bipedal humanoid
would not be a slave if owned because she had an animal form. Then, if this is the case,
then I would dain to argue that whom amoung the metahumans of SR are not just sentient
animals, as all o!
f the known races in SR (standing in that game world alone) did evolve from apes and thus
are animals. An owned shifter is not a slave indeed! <please feel free to read this
with sarcasm dripping from the last sentiment>

Tinne
Message no. 33
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shapeshifters
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 18:00:07 +1000
<Snip>


> Even so, eventually it would
> leave the stomach, and if you think childbirth is painful, imagine
shitting
> a live fox.
>

"I'd like to see a guy do that"
Krissy, my 31 weeks pregnant wife

Annachie :o)
Message no. 34
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:29:40 +0200
According to LDYTinne@***.com, at 17:14 on 22 Aug 00, the word on the
street was...

> So, hear me out here... So you are saying that in another case of a
> sentient race (for the purposes of counterpoint)in SR, say for example
> a sentient lizard, say a dragon was (a younger one for the point of
> argument) was captured by Taminous and successfully sold to serve a
> master; then because the dragon is not a human, nor a metahuman (which
> I believe that a shifter would have to be considered) he could not be
> recognized as a slave legally.

That is what I'm saying, yes. Sure, the dragon, shapeshifter, or awakened
bumblebee for all I care is sentient. Common sense says that therefore,
owning one is slavery. However, laws don't necessarily have anything to do
with common sense. If the law specifies metahumans (defined as dwarfs,
elves, humans, orks and trolls) then anything that doesn't fit that
description can be legally owned without slavery coming into the question.
As someone on another mailing list I'm on likes to point out: laws don't
have anything to do with what's right.

> Thus gaining freedom from the situation he was in through legal channels
> would be imposible, because it was not defined as slavery.

I'm not saying _that_. However, if the dragon were to run away, its owner
could likely be held responsible for anything it does, such as damage
caused or people killed. The dragon could probably also be put down if it
is making too much of a nuissance of itself (RL example: bulls, tigers,
etc. that have broken loose).

> This is because the dragon is most definetly not human and distictively
> an awakened sentient lizard, thus just an animal in a cage.

For the law, it would be, IMHO. Greater dragons would probably get pretty
pissed if humans were to stick lots of lesser dragons into cages, though,
so this would be Not Done, most likely, but other species don't have that
much power.

> Is this what you mean when you say that the sentient occasionally
> bipedal humanoid would not be a slave if owned because she had an animal
> form.

Yes, that is what I've been trying to say. As long as shapeshifters remain
classified as animals, there can be no slavery, because you can't enslave
an animal. You can own one and make it work for you, but that's not
slavery. Illegal or cruelty to animals, maybe, depending on what you make
it do (in this country, for example, it's illegal to let a dog pull a
cart) but not slavery even if the animal happens to be able to transform
into a human.

> Then, if this is the case, then I would dain to argue that whom amoung
> the metahumans of SR are not just sentient animals, as all of the known
> races in SR (standing in that game world alone) did evolve from apes and
> thus are animals. An owned shifter is not a slave indeed! <please feel
> free to read this with sarcasm dripping from the last sentiment>

Sentiment is the problem here, IMHO. You're looking at this sentimentally
("I play a shapeshifter, and they can't be slaves!") while you should look
at it like a lawyer. That said, I'm not a lawyer and certainly don't want
to become one, but laws and sentimentality don't mix too well if you ask
me.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 35
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:40:00 -0700 (PDT)
<snipt!(TM) of slavery discussion>

Don't forget, people, when speaking of dragons, that
Dunkelzahn was made a citizen of the UCAS. Now, I'm
not sure if there are any other non-metahuman
citizens, but from what I recall that was supposed to
be a start, not a once-off. In any case, 1. I don't
know if the UCAS slavery laws apply to "humans" or to
citizens, and 2. I kinda doubt that shapeshifters
would have been among the first to gain citizenship.

Just something to consider...

*Doc' ponders on the possibility of a redneck sheriff
trying to pull a dragon over for speeding...

"You got a license fer this yere vee-hickle, sonny?"*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 36
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:05:35 -0400
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 9:40 PM


> Don't forget, people, when speaking of dragons, that
> Dunkelzahn was made a citizen of the UCAS. Now, I'm
> not sure if there are any other non-metahuman
> citizens, but from what I recall that was supposed to
> be a start, not a once-off. In any case, 1. I don't

Actually, it is the other way around. :) It was a special circumstance that
made Dunkie a citizen. As far as the UCAS is concerned, shapeshifters,
dragons, and the like are not citizens. Unless the dragons are
powerful/smart enough to apply and get citizenship, but officially, not
citizens. I'm pretty sure dragons and sasquatches were considered to be
sentient, and therefore "metahuman", i guess, but not sure if this is true
for any other race.

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 37
From: DV8 dv8@***.nl
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:17:07 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "kawaii" <trunks@********.org>
> Actually, it is the other way around. :) It was a special circumstance
that
> made Dunkie a citizen. As far as the UCAS is concerned, shapeshifters,
> dragons, and the like are not citizens. Unless the dragons are
> powerful/smart enough to apply and get citizenship, but officially, not
> citizens. I'm pretty sure dragons and sasquatches were considered to be
> sentient, and therefore "metahuman", i guess, but not sure if this is true
> for any other race.

I remember it even differently. Metahumans who did not have a SIN could
apply for one and meanwhile got a probationary SIN. Humans got SIN's if the
authorities believed that they could be a useful addition to society,
however non-human Metahumans were priviously never given a SIN and therefor
always stayed probationary citizens. Dunkelzahn was the first non-human to
get a SIN.

That's my version. I'm not sure it's the correct one seeing as how many
different versions of this story is out there. I have been wrong before :)

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 38
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:15:53 +0200
(>) Rand Ratinac Left this message on the BBS at 06:40 PM 8/23/2000

>Don't forget, people, when speaking of dragons, that
>Dunkelzahn was made a citizen of the UCAS. Now, I'm
>not sure if there are any other non-metahuman
>citizens, but from what I recall that was supposed to
>be a start, not a once-off. In any case, 1. I don't
>know if the UCAS slavery laws apply to "humans" or to
>citizens, and 2. I kinda doubt that shapeshifters
>would have been among the first to gain citizenship.

They apply to all (meta)humans. If you have a chained mexican it's still
slavery, even if he's not a citizen of the UCAS.

Man, shorten your sig. I
(>) Nimster
There is no spoon.
Message no. 39
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:27:57 -0600
Nimster wrote:
>(>) Rand Ratinac Left this message on the BBS at 06:40 PM 8/23/2000
>
>>Don't forget, people, when speaking of dragons, that
>>Dunkelzahn was made a citizen of the UCAS. Now, I'm
>>not sure if there are any other non-metahuman
>>citizens, but from what I recall that was supposed to
>>be a start, not a once-off. In any case, 1. I don't
>>know if the UCAS slavery laws apply to "humans" or to
>>citizens, and 2. I kinda doubt that shapeshifters
>>would have been among the first to gain citizenship.
>
>They apply to all (meta)humans. If you have a chained mexican it's still
>slavery, even if he's not a citizen of the UCAS.

Not to mention laws which pertain to basic human rights. And if a
metahuman/paranormal isn't covered under that, there are the laws regarding
cruelty to animals and such.



To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!"
Message no. 40
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT)
> > Don't forget, people, when speaking of dragons,
that Dunkelzahn was made a citizen of the UCAS. Now,
I'm not sure if there are any other non-metahuman
citizens, but from what I recall that was supposed to
be a start, not a once-off. In any case, 1. I don't
>
> Actually, it is the other way around. :) It was a
special circumstance that made Dunkie a citizen. As
far as the UCAS is concerned, shapeshifters, dragons,
and the like are not citizens. Unless the dragons are
powerful/smart enough to apply and get citizenship,
but officially, not citizens. I'm pretty sure dragons
and sasquatches were considered to be sentient, and
therefore "metahuman", i guess, but not sure if this
is true for any other race.
> kawaii

Well, the boy's probably right. I SAID...well, I
IMPLIED...well, I HINTED that my recollection was
shaky...and it was...;)

*Doc' goes looking for the memory improvement
infomercials, but forgets that they're on TV...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 41
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:24:17 -0700 (PDT)
> >Don't forget, people, when speaking of dragons,
that Dunkelzahn was made a citizen of the UCAS. Now,
I'm not sure if there are any other non-metahuman
citizens, but from what I recall that was supposed to
be a start, not a once-off. In any case, 1. I don't
know if the UCAS slavery laws apply to "humans" or to
citizens, and 2. I kinda doubt that shapeshifters
would have been among the first to gain citizenship.
>
> They apply to all (meta)humans. If you have a
chained mexican it's still slavery, even if he's not a
citizen of the UCAS.

Check my logic, Nimster. What you've said - that's
EXACTLY my point. Say a law applies to citizens of the
UCAS. That means that the law applies to anyone who is
a citizen of the UCAS, be they human, metahuman,
dragon, sasquatch or whatever the hell they are. On
the other hand if the law applies "to all humans", or
"as a basic human right" or something like that, where
the operative word is human, then non-metahumans could
be left twisting in the wind, whether they're citizens
or not.

I think that, by now, all metahumans would be
considered "humans" for such legislation, but if, say,
the slavery laws were on the books as applying to
humans, but not explicitly applying to UCAS citizens,
then (however ridiculous the scenario is) technically
Dunkelzahn could have been legally enslaved! He was a
citizen, but no one could or would ever argue that he
was metahuman!

> Man, shorten your sig. I
> (>) Nimster

Hey, 7 lines. That's not a long sig.

IOW, no. Go away.

:)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 42
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 23:16:19 -0500
on 8/24/00 10:24 PM, Rand Ratinac at docwagon101@*****.com e-scribed:

> I think that, by now, all metahumans would be
> considered "humans" for such legislation, but if, say,
> the slavery laws were on the books as applying to
> humans, but not explicitly applying to UCAS citizens,
> then (however ridiculous the scenario is) technically
> Dunkelzahn could have been legally enslaved! He was a
> citizen, but no one could or would ever argue that he
> was metahuman!

Yeah, but the Supreme Court can make short work of those, unless it's the
constitution you're talking about (14th Amendment, IIRC).

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 43
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
> > I think that, by now, all metahumans would be
considered "humans" for such legislation, but if, say,
the slavery laws were on the books as applying to
humans, but not explicitly applying to UCAS citizens,
then (however ridiculous the scenario is) technically
Dunkelzahn could have been legally enslaved! He was a
citizen, but no one could or would ever argue that he
was metahuman!
>
> Yeah, but the Supreme Court can make short work of
those, unless it's the constitution you're talking
about (14th Amendment, IIRC).
> Andrew Gryphon

Oh, sure, but...

a) Who says they're going to? I kinda doubt the
supreme court would want to award the same rights and
privileges as a metahuman has to a dragon,
shapeshifter or vampire!

b) If they do, what happens in the meantime? Until the
laws are passed, the "bad guys" could literally get
away with murder. Are you allowed to retroactively be
charged with a crime if when you did the deed it
WASN'T a crime? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know.

I could see Tinne's crusading shapeshifter finding an
evil corp enslaving other shapeshifters, breaking in
to get the proof and then calling the cops. When the
cops arrive not only would they not be able to indict
the corp (because until the supreme court passes the
relevant laws, what they're doing isn't a crime), but
they'd arrest the shapeshifter for breaking and
entering, malicious wounding and whatever other crimes
were incurred during the, uh...discovery process. :)
(Not that any shadowrunner - even a shapeshifter -
would be dumb enough to hang around to be caught, but
you get my drift...)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 44
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 05:23:27 +1200 (NZST)
On Thu, 24 Aug 2000, Rand Ratinac wrote:

> (Not that any shadowrunner - even a shapeshifter -
> would be dumb enough to hang around to be caught, but
> you get my drift...)
Uh, common sense is actually relatively uncommon, unfortunately. Most
runners would have enough sense, but there's often some idiot...

Pedantic? You bet...
--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 45
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:48:43 -0700 (PDT)
> > (Not that any shadowrunner - even a shapeshifter -
would be dumb enough to hang around to be caught, but
you get my drift...)
> Uh, common sense is actually relatively uncommon,
unfortunately. Most runners would have enough sense,
but there's often some idiot...
>
> Pedantic? You bet...

Maybe I should have said "average". :)

Personally, I agree with you entirely...but, Keith,
you totally avoided that actual issue under
discussion.

Stop that!

:)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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Message no. 46
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:53:32 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 22:09 on 24 Aug 00, the word on the street
was...

> b) If they do, what happens in the meantime? Until the
> laws are passed, the "bad guys" could literally get
> away with murder. Are you allowed to retroactively be
> charged with a crime if when you did the deed it
> WASN'T a crime? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know.

Depends on the wording of the new law. If there's a clause that says that
breaking this law before it was a law, is punishable, then someone who
enslaved a shapeshifter (to stay with that) could be arrested and put on
trial. Without such a clause, though, only people who hold shapeshifters
as slaves _after_ the law comes into effect can be prosecuted.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Message no. 47
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 02:08:29 -0700 (PDT)
> > b) If they do, what happens in the meantime? Until
the laws are passed, the "bad guys" could literally
get away with murder. Are you allowed to retroactively
be charged with a crime if when you did the deed it
WASN'T a crime? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know.
>
> Depends on the wording of the new law. If there's a
clause that says that breaking this law before it was
a law, is punishable, then someone who enslaved a
shapeshifter (to stay with that) could be arrested and
put on trial. Without such a clause, though, only
people who hold shapeshifters as slaves _after_ the
law comes into effect can be prosecuted.
> Gurth@******.nl -

Okay, fine. Is that a standard proviso? Has it EVER
been used?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 48
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 20:41:13 +1000
----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: Your official rules views on shape shifters


> According to Rand Ratinac, at 22:09 on 24 Aug 00, the word on the street
> was...
>
> > b) If they do, what happens in the meantime? Until the
> > laws are passed, the "bad guys" could literally get
> > away with murder. Are you allowed to retroactively be
> > charged with a crime if when you did the deed it
> > WASN'T a crime? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know.
>
> Depends on the wording of the new law. If there's a clause that says that
> breaking this law before it was a law, is punishable, then someone who
> enslaved a shapeshifter (to stay with that) could be arrested and put on
> trial. Without such a clause, though, only people who hold shapeshifters
> as slaves _after_ the law comes into effect can be prosecuted.

It would be knocked back on appeal. "But judge, they weren't even
contemplating this law when I performed the act in question! How can it be
illegal now?"

Annachie
Message no. 49
From: Douglas Browne dejaffa@*********.net
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:33:07 -0400
> > Depends on the wording of the new law. If there's a
> clause that says that breaking this law before it was
> a law, is punishable, then someone who enslaved a
> shapeshifter (to stay with that) could be arrested and
> put on trial. Without such a clause, though, only
> people who hold shapeshifters as slaves _after_ the
> law comes into effect can be prosecuted.
> > Gurth@******.nl -

"No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed. " Article I,
Section 9 of the US Constitution. Article I, Section 10 extends this to the
states. As long as the UCAS is claiming to honor the old US Constitution,
they are specifically forbidden to do that. No law can make illegal conduct
before that law was passed.
IANAL.

--Mikey
Message no. 50
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:25:41 EDT
In a message dated 8/25/00 4:50:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> Depends on the wording of the new law. If there's a clause that says that
> breaking this law before it was a law, is punishable, then someone who
> enslaved a shapeshifter (to stay with that) could be arrested and put on
> trial. Without such a clause, though, only people who hold shapeshifters
> as slaves _after_ the law comes into effect can be prosecuted.

Doesn't the US (and thus the UCAS) constitution forbid these kinds of ex post
facto laws, though? Since most SR games occur in UCAS...
Message no. 51
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:07:13 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 2:08 on 25 Aug 00, the word on the street
was...

> Okay, fine. Is that a standard proviso? Has it EVER
> been used?

I'm not a lawyer, so don't ask me about any specifics :) However, I seem
to remember some cases here in the Netherlands where it was used, both for
criminal laws and others (e.g. some benefit that applied from some date
_before_ the law came into effect, and could be claimed by anyone who
qualified since that date).


According to DemonPenta@***.com, at 10:25 on 25 Aug 00, the word on
the street was...

> Doesn't the US (and thus the UCAS) constitution forbid these kinds of
> ex post facto laws, though? Since most SR games occur in UCAS...

I have no idea. I know slightly more about Dutch law than I need to get by
in daily life, and that's about it. Like I said, don't ask me about the
details, especially not of oter countries' laws :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 52
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 01:05:58 EDT
In a message dated Fri, 25 Aug 2000 1:01:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Rand Ratinac
<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:

b) If they do, what happens in the meantime? Until the
laws are passed, the "bad guys" could literally get
away with murder. Are you allowed to retroactively be
charged with a crime if when you did the deed it
WASN'T a crime? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know.

I could see Tinne's crusading shapeshifter finding an
evil corp enslaving other shapeshifters, breaking in
to get the proof and then calling the cops. When the
cops arrive not only would they not be able to indict
the corp (because until the supreme court passes the
relevant laws, what they're doing isn't a crime), but
they'd arrest the shapeshifter for breaking and
entering, malicious wounding and whatever other crimes
were incurred during the, uh...discovery process. :)
(Not that any shadowrunner - even a shapeshifter -
would be dumb enough to hang around to be caught, but
you get my drift...)


Tinne's Commentary:
Point one: Laws that are enacted in regard to crimes commited generally are written to
exclude past offenses, i.e. grandfather clausing the law.

FYI: Talia, the wolf shifter, Light Bearer, Berlin resident (circa 2050, still in
anarchy,) Gang leader (of 73 gangers), Knight of Firth, mother of 3 (ages 5 and 1 month,
& 1 month,) and Questor of Jaspree; has not yet gone intentionally running about
breaking out shifters that are being experimented upon by corps. Her plate is a WEE BIT
FULL every where else. Give her time, she will get to it.

A further question: If she was given a SIN in order to be knighted in Germany, but no one
knew at the time that she was a shifter, and put, race: human, on her legal documents;
would she then still be a legal and protected citizen of Germany, even though they do not
recognize Shifters as legal citizens? OPINIONS with reasoning please.

Your commentary, thus far, has been interesting.

Tinne
Message no. 53
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 11:48:38 +0200
According to LDYTinne@***.com, at 1:05 on 27 Aug 00, the word on the
street was...

> A further question: If she was given a SIN in order to be knighted in
> Germany, but no one knew at the time that she was a shifter, and put,
> race: human, on her legal documents; would she then still be a legal
> and protected citizen of Germany, even though they do not recognize
> Shifters as legal citizens? OPINIONS with reasoning please.

That is a very tricky question. She's obviously committed ...
whatsitcalledinEnglishagain ... let's say putting false information in an
official document (fraud? forgery? don't sound right), for which she could
be arrested and convicted if it was ever found out. However, if Germany
doesn't recognize shapeshifters as metahumans (and thus they can't be
citizens), she can't have a SIN, either, and so would never need to fill
out any forms in the first place.

I guess that the government's solution is either very rapid (take away the
SIN and never mention to anyone how stupid you were to give one to a non-
metahuman) or very complicated (lots of procedures to establish whether or
not shapeshifters can get passports). The latter could have far-ranging
consequences, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 54
From: Sean Edwards edwars2@*******.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 05:55:48 EDT
>>A further question: If she was given a SIN in order to be knighted in
> Germany, but no one knew at the time that she was a shifter, and put,
> race: human, on her legal documents; would she then still be a legal
> and protected citizen of Germany, even though they do not recognize
> Shifters as legal citizens? OPINIONS with reasoning please.

>That is a very tricky question. She's obviously committed ...
>whatsitcalledinEnglishagain ... let's say putting false information in an
official document (fraud? forgery? don't sound right), for which she could
be arrested and convicted if it was ever found out. However, if Germany
doesn't recognize shapeshifters as metahumans (and thus they can't be
citizens), she can't have a SIN, either, and so would never need to fill out
any forms in the first place.

I believe, in general, that most "legal documents" are required to be filled
out truthfully, otherwise they are void. As soon as it was discovered that
the shifter was not human the documents would no longer be legally binding
and citizenship could be denied. Now I'm sure there are exceptions to this,
but it seems to be a good way to run a legal system.
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Message no. 55
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 11:26:12 EDT
In a message dated Sun, 27 Aug 2000 5:56:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Sean
Edwards" <edwars2@*******.com> writes:

<< >>A further question: If she was given a SIN in order to be knighted in
> Germany, but no one knew at the time that she was a shifter, and put,
> race: human, on her legal documents; would she then still be a legal
> and protected citizen of Germany, even though they do not recognize
> Shifters as legal citizens? OPINIONS with reasoning please.

>That is a very tricky question. She's obviously committed ...
>whatsitcalledinEnglishagain ... let's say putting false information in an
official document (fraud? forgery? don't sound right), for which she could
be arrested and convicted if it was ever found out. However, if Germany
doesn't recognize shapeshifters as metahumans (and thus they can't be
citizens), she can't have a SIN, either, and so would never need to fill out
any forms in the first place.

I believe, in general, that most "legal documents" are required to be filled
out truthfully, otherwise they are void. As soon as it was discovered that
the shifter was not human the documents would no longer be legally binding
and citizenship could be denied. Now I'm sure there are exceptions to this.

Further... She did not fill out the SIN application. It was filled out for her. No one
present had the capability to see auricly, to my knowledge, and thus did not know. She
did not seek, but rather earned her knighthood. This is a title that requires a SIN in
Germany, in our game. Three other people were knighted at the time as well. She did not
ask for the title nor the SIN. They both were confired upon her. She, along with the
other three people are Firthenvald local legends and heros of Germany. She with the 3
others slew a dragon that had taken up residence that was seriously harming the Duchy of
Firthenvald (it's people, it's economy). And before you ask, the other dragons were not
upset to see this bozo, who was giving them a bad rep, gone, though we did not know this
in advance.
So would this state of affairs have any influence on her German citizenship and her
title as Knight remaining intack if the truth came out?
Tinne
Message no. 56
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:29:40 GMT
>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
> > A further question: If she was given a SIN in order to be knighted in
> > Germany, but no one knew at the time that she was a shifter, and put,
> > race: human, on her legal documents; would she then still be a legal
> > and protected citizen of Germany, even though they do not recognize
> > Shifters as legal citizens? OPINIONS with reasoning please.
>
>That is a very tricky question. She's obviously committed ...
>whatsitcalledinEnglishagain ... let's say putting false information in an
>official document (fraud? forgery? don't sound right), for which she could
>be arrested and convicted if it was ever found out. However, if Germany
>doesn't recognize shapeshifters as metahumans (and thus they can't be
>citizens), she can't have a SIN, either, and so would never need to fill
>out any forms in the first place.

If the authorities realised her true nature (and when you apply for a SIN
they have a good look at you astrally for magical abilitys, in which case
you need to be registered). If she does somehow get through that, her
doccuments would become void if it turned out she lied on them.

Phil

Let us assume we have a can opener.
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Message no. 57
From: Sean Edwards edwars2@*******.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:15:46 EDT
>Further... She did not fill out the SIN application. It was filled out
>for her. No one present had the capability to see auricly, to my
>knowledge, and thus did not know. She did not seek, but rather earned her
>knighthood. This is a title that requires a SIN in Germany, in our game.
>Three other people were knighted at the time as well. She did not ask for
>the title nor the SIN. They both were confired upon her. She, along with
>the other three people are Firthenvald local legends and heros of Germany.
>She with the 3 others slew a dragon that had taken up residence that was
>seriously harming the Duchy of Firthenvald (it's people, it's economy).
>And before you ask, the other dragons were not upset to see this bozo, who
>was giving them a bad rep, gone, though we did not know this in advance.
> So would this state of affairs have any influence on her German
>citizenship and her title as Knight remaining intack if the truth came out?

It seems that this is a case of the government working around its own rules
(which, as I'm sure we all know, never happens ;). If the government
knighted the character and they want her to remain a knight regardless of
her species then they should be able to do that. The only problem is if
"the people" find out, get upset, and start a petition/revolt/etc. I'm not
sure what germany is like in this timeline, so they might be able to say
"shut up or we'll shoot you", but if they have respect for the people's
opinion they might revoke the knighthood. Otherwise, I think you're safe.
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Message no. 58
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 13:49:23 -0500
From: <LDYTinne@***.com>
Subject: Re: Your official rules views on shape shifters


> >That is a very tricky question. She's obviously committed ...
> >whatsitcalledinEnglishagain ... let's say putting false information in an
> official document (fraud? forgery? don't sound right), for which she could

Purgery???

> be arrested and convicted if it was ever found out. However, if Germany
> doesn't recognize shapeshifters as metahumans (and thus they can't be
> citizens), she can't have a SIN, either, and so would never need to fill
out
> any forms in the first place.

Of which no "shadowrunner" is there for filling out their ID's most of the
time anyway, so your whole comment is made moot.

> I believe, in general, that most "legal documents" are required to be
filled
> out truthfully, otherwise they are void. As soon as it was discovered
that
> the shifter was not human the documents would no longer be legally binding
> and citizenship could be denied. Now I'm sure there are exceptions to
this.

You are correct in the determination of whether or not the identification
would be considered "voided". And last I had heard, no nation in europe
afforded shapeshifters citizenship either.

<snips home game summary>> So would this state of affairs have any
influence on her German citizenship and her title as Knight remaining intack
if the truth came out?

Within the Duchy, it would have none at all. And unless a nation recognized
the Duchy and it's rights and citizenships ... her "granted SIN" is ignored
anyway by pretty much anyway.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Some)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 59
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 00:27:07 -0500
on 8/27/00 12:05 AM, LDYTinne@***.com at LDYTinne@***.com e-scribed:

> A further question: If she was given a SIN in order to be knighted in
> Germany, but no one knew at the time that she was a shifter, and put, race:
> human, on her legal documents; would she then still be a legal and protected
> citizen of Germany, even though they do not recognize Shifters as legal
> citizens? OPINIONS with reasoning please.

Wouldn't that be purgery or related?

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 60
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:30:25 -0700 (PDT)
> Tinne's Commentary:
> Point one: Laws that are enacted in regard to
crimes commited generally are written to exclude past
offenses, i.e. grandfather clausing the law.

Which is what I would have figured and has been
confirmed as being the case in the US (and thus, in
all probability, the UCAS).

> A further question: If she was given a SIN in order
to be knighted in Germany, but no one knew at the time
that she was a shifter, and put, race: human, on her
legal documents; would she then still be a legal and
protected citizen of Germany, even though they do not
recognize Shifters as legal citizens? OPINIONS with
reasoning please.

I'd say yes, but only as long as no one knew she was a
shifter. Once she was exposed, there would be public
outcry (amongst those who cared), the courts would be
tied up in legal wrangling over the matter for years,
if not decades and she'd have to go into hiding when
some of the more traditional and reactive members of
the nobility decided to go hunting.

Heh. :)

> Your commentary, thus far, has been interesting.
> Tinne

Damn it, Tinne, stop SAYING that!!!

*Doc' pulls out a whetstone and starts sharpening up
his Louisville Slugger...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 61
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 00:00:54 -0700 (PDT)
> > >That is a very tricky question. She's obviously
> committed ...
> > >whatsitcalledinEnglishagain ... let's say putting
> false information in an
> > official document (fraud? forgery? don't sound
> right), for which she could
>
> Purgery???
<snipt!(TM)>
> NeoJudas ("K" to Some)

Purgery?

Is that a misdemeanour committed by bulimics?

*Doc' gets a new suit made up..."Politically Incorrect Man"!!!*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 62
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 18:48:49 EDT
In a message dated Mon, 28 Aug 2000 2:29:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Rand Ratinac
<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:

> Your commentary, thus far, has been interesting.
> Tinne

Damn it, Tinne, stop SAYING that!!!

*Doc' pulls out a whetstone and starts sharpening up
his Louisville Slugger...*

Why oh why Doc should I stop saying that????

Tinne====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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>>
Message no. 63
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Your official rules views on shape shifters
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:12:27 -0700 (PDT)
> > Your commentary, thus far, has been interesting.
> > Tinne
>
> Damn it, Tinne, stop SAYING that!!!
>
> *Doc' pulls out a whetstone and starts sharpening up
his Louisville Slugger...*
>
> Why oh why Doc should I stop saying that????
> Tinne

You're a woman. You wouldn't understand.

*Doc' picks his teeth with his sharpened Louisville
Slugger and accidentally knocks himself out...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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