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Message no. 1
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:47:02 EDT
The Unknown Sender (whose posts I still can't get to paste/reply right) wrote
:
-=-=-=-
A thought occured to me while I was letting the lumini drift at the back
part of my consciousness. Has anyone ever had zeitgiests? The spirit of a
particular time period? I don't know how well they'd fit into the SR
universe... this is still a bare nub of an idea, but I thought I'd toss it
out to see if anyone came up with something clever.
-=-=-=-

I know that we have had "Uncle Sam" running around as an NPC with a
motivational attitude for some time now. Does that qualify?

-K
Message no. 2
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:50:58 -0700
----------
> From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
> Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 3:47 PM
>
> The Unknown Sender (whose posts I still can't get to paste/reply right)
wrote
> :

Maybe I should just put a paper bag over my head and judge on the Gong
Show.

> -=-=-=-
> A thought occured to me while I was letting the lumini drift at the back
> part of my consciousness. Has anyone ever had zeitgiests? The spirit of
a
> particular time period? I don't know how well they'd fit into the SR
> universe... this is still a bare nub of an idea, but I thought I'd toss
it
> out to see if anyone came up with something clever.
> -=-=-=-
>
> I know that we have had "Uncle Sam" running around as an NPC with a
> motivational attitude for some time now. Does that qualify?
>

Might be... Webster's says it's something that embodies the spirit of a
time... So I guess the question I have with Uncle Sam is what time period
does he embody? I suppose I could imagine him being the essence of WW2
American Patriotism. I guess Zeitgeists would also be fairly regional.
Hmmm... I'd imagine, however, that Zeitgeists would be pretty rare, pretty
hard to summon, and most of the older Zeitgeists would be free spirits.

I imagine the 2053 Zeitgeist would be a bit frightening.

Anyone want to think up some stats and powers for something like this? I
might try to cook up something tonight if I remember.
Message no. 3
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:22:26 -0400
At 04:50 PM 4/30/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Maybe I should just put a paper bag over my head and judge on the Gong
>Show.

Wouldn't that make you a member of GridSec then? ;-)

>Might be... Webster's says it's something that embodies the spirit of a
>time... So I guess the question I have with Uncle Sam is what time period
>does he embody? I suppose I could imagine him being the essence of WW2
>American Patriotism. I guess Zeitgeists would also be fairly regional.
>Hmmm... I'd imagine, however, that Zeitgeists would be pretty rare, pretty
>hard to summon, and most of the older Zeitgeists would be free spirits.

Not to rain on your parade, but the definition of "Zeitgeist" as "spirit of
the times" is merely a rough translation. Zeit means time, Geist means
ghost or spirit. So it's a literal translation, but it doesn't really
capture the meaning of the word.

It's a German word that really has no true English equivalent. It's
something that refers to the general mood or feeling of the times, and is
usually quite vague and amorphous (like it's definition).

Frag, I think it was one of those damnable German philosophers that created
the word, which means that unless you have a doctorate in german
philosophy, no one is likely to really know what the word means.

But I would argue against anything such as "Zeitgeist" spirits in SR.
Doesn't make sense in the "official" SR cosmology. And even if it did make
sense, I would argue against it because a zeitgeist is so damn hard to
define, and I don't just mean the word itself but what it is referring to.

I don't know, it would sort of be like having "happiness" or "lust" or
"melancholy" spirits, just as you have Hearth or Forest spirits.

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 4
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:05:21 EDT
The Unknown Sender (whose posts I still can't get to paste/reply right) wrote
:
-=-=-=-
Might be... Webster's says it's something that embodies the spirit of a
time... So I guess the question I have with Uncle Sam is what time period
does he embody? I suppose I could imagine him being the essence of WW2
American Patriotism. I guess Zeitgeists would also be fairly regional.
Hmmm... I'd imagine, however, that Zeitgeists would be pretty rare, pretty
hard to summon, and most of the older Zeitgeists would be free spirits.

I imagine the 2053 Zeitgeist would be a bit frightening.

Anyone want to think up some stats and powers for something like this? I
might try to cook up something tonight if I remember.
-=-=-=-

Ah, I think I have figured out what you mean now. Literally a "Spirit of the
Era/Year" itself. Okay, by that idea, Uncle Sam that I suggested would NOT
qualify. He's a Ghost from that year, one's taken on certain spiritual
qualities and become more of a Spirit of Man type than anything else now.

What you are looking for is a "collective embodiment of a given temporal
reference". Yes, I knew of a definition like this, just not that name (sorry,
German isn't my strongest suit). I don't think you could get something like
to ever manifest except during the time period.

However, it would be an interesting twist on information gathering. You'd
have to have something -from- the year/time period in question, and it would
likely be Ritual for quite a while. We've got ideas on how to deal with
Temporal Measurements within an abstract game environment. We call 'em
"Chronums" and you can learn about them upon the Hacker House Web page...

http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/intro.htm

I think it's within the Magic section of the pages group, IIRC...

-K
Message no. 5
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:59:06 -0300
Ereskanti escreveu:
>
> The Unknown Sender (whose posts I still can't get to paste/reply right) wrote
> :
> -=-=-=-
> A thought occured to me while I was letting the lumini drift at the back
> part of my consciousness. Has anyone ever had zeitgiests? The spirit of a
> particular time period? I don't know how well they'd fit into the SR
> universe... this is still a bare nub of an idea, but I thought I'd toss it
> out to see if anyone came up with something clever.
> -=-=-=-
>
> I know that we have had "Uncle Sam" running around as an NPC with a
> motivational attitude for some time now. Does that qualify?
>
> -K


If you want I can send the Lumini file to you in private, some types
of
spirits there look loke people from other times (Lumini of Wisdom and
War).
What about it?

Ubiratan
Message no. 6
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:17:05 -0300
Erik Jameson escreveu:
>
>
> But I would argue against anything such as "Zeitgeist" spirits in SR.
> Doesn't make sense in the "official" SR cosmology. And even if it did make
> sense, I would argue against it because a zeitgeist is so damn hard to
> define, and I don't just mean the word itself but what it is referring to.
>
> I don't know, it would sort of be like having "happiness" or
"lust" or
> "melancholy" spirits, just as you have Hearth or Forest spirits.
>
> Erik J.
>
> "Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
> Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>


I just happen to have some writings on this, still o incomplete. If
you want to take a
look...

Ubiratan
Message no. 7
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:19:38 -0700
----------
> From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
> Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 5:22 PM
>
> At 04:50 PM 4/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >Maybe I should just put a paper bag over my head and judge on the Gong
> >Show.
>
> Wouldn't that make you a member of GridSec then? ;-)
>

Oh, you bad person.

> >Might be... Webster's says it's something that embodies the spirit of a
> >time... So I guess the question I have with Uncle Sam is what time
period
> >does he embody? I suppose I could imagine him being the essence of WW2
> >American Patriotism. I guess Zeitgeists would also be fairly regional.
> >Hmmm... I'd imagine, however, that Zeitgeists would be pretty rare,
pretty
> >hard to summon, and most of the older Zeitgeists would be free spirits.
>
> Not to rain on your parade, but the definition of "Zeitgeist" as
"spirit
of
> the times" is merely a rough translation. Zeit means time, Geist means
> ghost or spirit. So it's a literal translation, but it doesn't really
> capture the meaning of the word.
>

Understood. I'm sorry if I explained it poorly. I'm admitedly a bit weak
on the point. The fact that they have actual zeitgeists in the World of
Darkness probably colored my thinking on this one.

> It's a German word that really has no true English equivalent. It's
> something that refers to the general mood or feeling of the times, and is
> usually quite vague and amorphous (like it's definition).
>
> Frag, I think it was one of those damnable German philosophers that
created
> the word, which means that unless you have a doctorate in german
> philosophy, no one is likely to really know what the word means.
>
> But I would argue against anything such as "Zeitgeist" spirits in SR.
> Doesn't make sense in the "official" SR cosmology. And even if it did
make
> sense, I would argue against it because a zeitgeist is so damn hard to
> define, and I don't just mean the word itself but what it is referring
to.
>
> I don't know, it would sort of be like having "happiness" or
"lust" or
> "melancholy" spirits, just as you have Hearth or Forest spirits.
>

Yeah, I got that mood or feeling thing. After I'd posted my original thing
and thought about it, I realized how damnably vague it was. But then, so
are "Spirits of the Fiery Firmament" if you ask me. =) But you did touch
on one of my major influences. Ubiritan's idea of Lumini was what gave me
the idea for this.

The idea I hashed out last night is that my so called "Zeitgeists" are
spirits tied to an object or place that symbolizes an era, time period,
event, whatever. They are very definitely a type of "Spirit of Man".
However, they are more in tune with social trends, and the emotions tied to
an event than they are to physical locations. So, you may not be able to
use them to search for a person in a city, but they may be able to give you
perspective on any influence a person had in their native time period.
These spirits would fit more with the scholars, and maybe the information
brokers, of the SR universe than the runners. Some of the potential ways
that I envisioned it using spirit powers may have some uses, but nuyen for
soy-donuts, I'd put my money on a hearth spirit, city spirit, whatever if I
needed help in a scrap.

I can do a full write up if anyone is curious. I even came up with a sort
of scholarly totem that could summon up these spirits.
Message no. 8
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:55:04 -0700
----------
> From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
> Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 8:05 PM
>
> The Unknown Sender (whose posts I still can't get to paste/reply right)
wrote
> :
> -=-=-=-
> Might be... Webster's says it's something that embodies the spirit of a
> time... So I guess the question I have with Uncle Sam is what time period
> does he embody? I suppose I could imagine him being the essence of WW2
> American Patriotism. I guess Zeitgeists would also be fairly regional.
> Hmmm... I'd imagine, however, that Zeitgeists would be pretty rare,
pretty
> hard to summon, and most of the older Zeitgeists would be free spirits.
>
> I imagine the 2053 Zeitgeist would be a bit frightening.
>
> Anyone want to think up some stats and powers for something like this? I
> might try to cook up something tonight if I remember.
> -=-=-=-
>
> Ah, I think I have figured out what you mean now. Literally a "Spirit of
the
> Era/Year" itself. Okay, by that idea, Uncle Sam that I suggested would
NOT
> qualify. He's a Ghost from that year, one's taken on certain spiritual
> qualities and become more of a Spirit of Man type than anything else now.
>
> What you are looking for is a "collective embodiment of a given temporal
> reference". Yes, I knew of a definition like this, just not that name
(sorry,
> German isn't my strongest suit). I don't think you could get something
like
> to ever manifest except during the time period.
>

Yup.

> However, it would be an interesting twist on information gathering.
You'd
> have to have something -from- the year/time period in question, and it
would
> likely be Ritual for quite a while. We've got ideas on how to deal with
> Temporal Measurements within an abstract game environment. We call 'em
> "Chronums" and you can learn about them upon the Hacker House Web page...
>

Ve haf vays of dealing vith temporal measoorments.

Yeah, I kinda settled with the idea of having to have a physical embodiment
of an era required to summon it. Like a battered WWII helmet, or the
tombstone of a person who died from VITAS. I don't know about how to
summon them. I was thinking it would be in the province of a particular
type of shaman... kinda like how the Spirits of FF can only be summoned by
certain shamans and TNN mages who follow the paths.

> http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/intro.htm
>
> I think it's within the Magic section of the pages group, IIRC...
>

Couldn't find it.
Message no. 9
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:43:37 -0300
Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman escreveu:
>

>
>
>
>
> Yeah, I kinda settled with the idea of having to have a physical embodiment
> of an era required to summon it. Like a battered WWII helmet, or the
> tombstone of a person who died from VITAS. I don't know about how to
> summon them. I was thinking it would be in the province of a particular
> type of shaman... kinda like how the Spirits of FF can only be summoned by
> certain shamans and TNN mages who follow the paths.
>

I have also come up with a magician for Lumini (forgot to say this
before :) ).
they's be more or less hermetic, something liek the phylosophers of
Ancient Greece.
There's a Special Skill called Afinity, wich must have a
concentration of a Luminus
category (war, faith...). The greater the skill, the more attuned the
Sage (name of
the magician class) is to that aspect of Lumini, and dealing (summoning
and asking favors from)
with an opposite category requires a skill test to avoid nasty
consequences.

Ubiratan
Message no. 10
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:32:25 -0300
Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman escreveu:
>


> on one of my major influences. Ubiritan's idea of Lumini was what gave me
^^^^^^^^

UbirAtan, please.

> The idea I hashed out last night is that my so called "Zeitgeists" are
> spirits tied to an object or place that symbolizes an era, time period,
> event, whatever. They are very definitely a type of "Spirit of Man".
> However, they are more in tune with social trends, and the emotions tied to
> an event than they are to physical locations. So, you may not be able to
> use them to search for a person in a city, but they may be able to give you
> perspective on any influence a person had in their native time period.
> These spirits would fit more with the scholars, and maybe the information
> brokers, of the SR universe than the runners. Some of the potential ways
> that I envisioned it using spirit powers may have some uses, but nuyen for
> soy-donuts, I'd put my money on a hearth spirit, city spirit, whatever if I
> needed help in a scrap.
>
> I can do a full write up if anyone is curious. I even came up with a sort
> of scholarly totem that could summon up these spirits.


I have the whole Lumini thing in my mind, and partially written in a
textfile.
They're more like spirits of emotions, indenpendent of time periods,
altough some
of them were created by the strong impressions left by some periods.

Ubiratan
Message no. 11
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 13:11:16 -0700
----------
> From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
> Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 12:32 PM
>
> Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman escreveu:
> >
>
>
> > on one of my major influences. Ubiritan's idea of Lumini was what gave
me
> ^^^^^^^^
>
> UbirAtan, please.
>

That's what I get for just glancing.

> > I can do a full write up if anyone is curious. I even came up with a
sort
> > of scholarly totem that could summon up these spirits.
>
>
> I have the whole Lumini thing in my mind, and partially written in a
> textfile.
> They're more like spirits of emotions, indenpendent of time periods,
> altough some
> of them were created by the strong impressions left by some periods.

Yeah, I had the text file you sent around... commented on it on the list,
but I don't recall anyone else talking about it afterwards. I did note
that it seemed a bit cut off along the way.
Message no. 12
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 13:10:13 -0700
----------
> From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
> Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 12:43 PM
>
> Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman escreveu:
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yeah, I kinda settled with the idea of having to have a physical
embodiment
> > of an era required to summon it. Like a battered WWII helmet, or the
> > tombstone of a person who died from VITAS. I don't know about how to
> > summon them. I was thinking it would be in the province of a
particular
> > type of shaman... kinda like how the Spirits of FF can only be summoned
by
> > certain shamans and TNN mages who follow the paths.
> >
>
> I have also come up with a magician for Lumini (forgot to say this
> before :) ).
> they's be more or less hermetic, something liek the phylosophers of
> Ancient Greece.

Odd... that's kinda like what I was going for. I was thinking of using the
"idols" idea from the German sourcebook, and using the "Muses" as a
totem.


What incredible irony!

> There's a Special Skill called Afinity, wich must have a
> concentration of a Luminus
> category (war, faith...). The greater the skill, the more attuned the
> Sage (name of
> the magician class) is to that aspect of Lumini, and dealing (summoning
> and asking favors from)
> with an opposite category requires a skill test to avoid nasty
> consequences.
>

Ah, I was just going to go for simple summoning. Wanted to have it
somewhat close to the current system for magic.
Message no. 13
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:54:46 -0300
Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman escreveu:
>
>
> >
> > I have the whole Lumini thing in my mind, and partially written in a
> > textfile.
> > They're more like spirits of emotions, indenpendent of time periods,
> > altough some
> > of them were created by the strong impressions left by some periods.
>
> Yeah, I had the text file you sent around... commented on it on the list,
> but I don't recall anyone else talking about it afterwards. I did note
> that it seemed a bit cut off along the way.


I was hoping to get feedback, but mr. J cut me off the list because
of the attachment.
I offered to send it again in private after I had rejoined, but no one
replied. What did you think
of the file?

Ubiratan
Message no. 14
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:56:27 -0300
Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman escreveu:
>
>
> >
> >

> > There's a Special Skill called Afinity, wich must have a
> > concentration of a Luminus
> > category (war, faith...). The greater the skill, the more attuned the
> > Sage (name of
> > the magician class) is to that aspect of Lumini, and dealing (summoning
> > and asking favors from)
> > with an opposite category requires a skill test to avoid nasty
> > consequences.
> >
>
> Ah, I was just going to go for simple summoning. Wanted to have it
> somewhat close to the current system for magic.


I did this because the nature of the Sages is more hermetic (Someone
says "shaman"
and I see a guy covered with feathers :) ). There are 7 types of Lumini,
each of
the 6 first ones is opposed to other, and the 7th is opposed to all
other 6 (that
diagram in the beginning of the file.). Sages cast spells normally and
summon a
Luminus using Conjuring+Affinity of the desired type. Max skill is equal
to
Magic/2. Lumini don't like when you deal with their mortal enemies, so
they won't
be kind on the sage if he does...

Ubiratan
Message no. 15
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 15:29:54 -0700
----------
> From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
> Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 1:54 PM
>
> I was hoping to get feedback, but mr. J cut me off the list because
> of the attachment.
> I offered to send it again in private after I had rejoined, but no one
> replied. What did you think
> of the file?
>

Here's my original response:

Okay, thought I'd give my input on the write up. I thought it was
generally interesting, but a few things kinda nagged at me....

The first was that they can only appear human, which I thought was a little
silly. I've noticed that with many spirits, particularly Spirits of Man,
their appearance is based more off of perception than soul. On top of
which, it would be pretty hard for a Hate Lumini to get the trolls of an
anti-human organization to go rampaging after humans if the spirit looked
like human. He'd probably just get whacked.

Another thing that got me right away is the association of Wisdom with Math
and Science. If anything I'd associate these with the Lumini of the
Machine. I would find it more applicable to be associated with the social
skills, which you pointed out, as well the more "common sense" knowledges,
such as all the different types of "Theories". Art I would place more in
the realm of "Love" then "Wisdom".

It cuts off in the midst of War, I think, and so that's about the end of
what I can consider. =) I should also note that I think stats should have
been listed with it.
Message no. 16
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 01:41:11 -0300
Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman escreveu:
>

>
> Here's my original response:
>
> Okay, thought I'd give my input on the write up. I thought it was
> generally interesting, but a few things kinda nagged at me....
>
> The first was that they can only appear human, which I thought was a little
> silly. I've noticed that with many spirits, particularly Spirits of Man,
> their appearance is based more off of perception than soul. On top of
> which, it would be pretty hard for a Hate Lumini to get the trolls of an
> anti-human organization to go rampaging after humans if the spirit looked
> like human. He'd probably just get whacked.
>
> Another thing that got me right away is the association of Wisdom with Math
> and Science. If anything I'd associate these with the Lumini of the
> Machine. I would find it more applicable to be associated with the social
> skills, which you pointed out, as well the more "common sense" knowledges,
> such as all the different types of "Theories". Art I would place more in
> the realm of "Love" then "Wisdom".
>
> It cuts off in the midst of War, I think, and so that's about the end of
> what I can consider. =) I should also note that I think stats should have
> been listed with it.


Their original form is human, but if necessary, they (specially the
"evil ones" :) )
can use illusions or change shape temporarilly. The Hate Luminus could
anger the trolls
by inciting humans to act against them, thus spreading hate on both
sides...
I ahven't got to the Machine on that file yet, but imagine this: When
you think of Math
for Wisdom Lumini, think of Leonardo DaVinci hunched over a sheet of
paper with a quill in
his hand, designing one of his brilliant inventions, not in some
computer calculating. Think
of the entusiasm you feel when you solve a problem on your own, without
technological help.
This is the feeling those Lumini represent. It's the creative process
rather than the final
product.

And about the stats, each individual spirit is quite unique, and
since they represent emotions,
what better thing than let their stats be created subjectively? :)
Powers are used with Essence,
wich is also TN for conjuring, Banishing, etc. And the GM determines all
stats.

Ubiratan
Message no. 17
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 07:54:49 EDT
> But I would argue against anything such as "Zeitgeist" spirits in SR.
> Doesn't make sense in the "official" SR cosmology. And even if it did
make
> sense, I would argue against it because a zeitgeist is so damn hard to
> define, and I don't just mean the word itself but what it is referring
to.
>
> I don't know, it would sort of be like having "happiness" or
"lust" or
> "melancholy" spirits, just as you have Hearth or Forest spirits.
>

<<Yeah, I got that mood or feeling thing. After I'd posted my original thing
and thought about it, I realized how damnably vague it was. But then, so
are "Spirits of the Fiery Firmament" if you ask me. =) But you did touch
on one of my major influences. Ubiritan's idea of Lumini was what gave me
the idea for this.

The idea I hashed out last night is that my so called "Zeitgeists" are
spirits tied to an object or place that symbolizes an era, time period,
event, whatever. They are very definitely a type of "Spirit of Man".
However, they are more in tune with social trends, and the emotions tied to
an event than they are to physical locations. So, you may not be able to
use them to search for a person in a city, but they may be able to give you
perspective on any influence a person had in their native time period.
These spirits would fit more with the scholars, and maybe the information
brokers, of the SR universe than the runners. Some of the potential ways
that I envisioned it using spirit powers may have some uses, but nuyen for
soy-donuts, I'd put my money on a hearth spirit, city spirit, whatever if I
needed help in a scrap.

I can do a full write up if anyone is curious. I even came up with a sort
of scholarly totem that could summon up these spirits.>>

Guys, sorry, but something funny is going on with my mailer so I am having all
sorts of fun answering mail today.

Perhaps there is another option on how to consider Zeitgeists, they are a
variation on Ancestral Spirits from the Cyberpirates Sourcebook. But instead
of being an ancestor, they are something -OR- someone who embodies the very
essence of that time period (I could just see one coming from the late 60's in
the US ... hello flower child).

Mike
Message no. 18
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 16:56:59 -0700
On Sat, 2 May 1998, Ubiratan P. Alberton wrote:

> I ahven't got to the Machine on that file yet, but imagine this: When
> you think of Math
> for Wisdom Lumini, think of Leonardo DaVinci hunched over a sheet of
> paper with a quill in
> his hand, designing one of his brilliant inventions, not in some
> computer calculating. Think
> of the entusiasm you feel when you solve a problem on your own, without
> technological help.
> This is the feeling those Lumini represent. It's the creative process
> rather than the final
> product.
>

I still wouldn't classify this as wisdom, though. Something more akin to
love than anything else, but the abstract world of numbers has nothing to
do with wisdom. There is many a college that has a healthy population of
people who do differential equations and linear series for fun, and are
most likely Mr. Science's illegitimate children. But they don't have the
common sense that god gave to a gnat. I believe my favorite quote about
this is the one from Jurassic Park: You spent so much trying to figure out
if you _could_ do it, that you never stopped to think if you _should_ do
it.

I can expand on this theme for a few more pages if you want. =) Perhaps
there should be a Lumini for "Creation" and a Lumini for "Destruction"
as
its opposite number?

> And about the stats, each individual spirit is quite unique, and
> since they represent emotions,
> what better thing than let their stats be created subjectively? :)
> Powers are used with Essence,
> wich is also TN for conjuring, Banishing, etc. And the GM determines all
> stats.

Well where's the fun in that? ;) Dunno... if I were to have something
like this introduced into my campaign, I'd want a pretty good idea of what
powers a standard non-free version would have. Even if it was nothing
more than giving them the stats of a "Spirit of Man" and a few common
powers that would go with it. I could probably cook something up if I
wanted to, but I think it's a big assumption to believe that all GMs are
that creative. =)
Message no. 19
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:18:12 -0300
Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman escreveu:
>

>
>
Perhaps
> there should be a Lumini for "Creation" and a Lumini for
"Destruction" as
> its opposite number?

That's the idea I had, I just named them "Wisdom" and "War"... But
you are
right, the Lumini of Wisdom should also represent ethics (a rare concept
in
2060 :) ). Let's put it this way, then: They represent the love for
knowledge,
ethics in science and social skills and art, along with the pure
pleasure of
creating art and knowledge. Lumini of Love represent love one feels for
other
human beings. War (I have already written them up in the file, only
Machine is
left out out for now) represent combat and tactics, knowledge used for
destruction.



> Well where's the fun in that? ;) Dunno... if I were to have something
> like this introduced into my campaign, I'd want a pretty good idea of what
> powers a standard non-free version would have. Even if it was nothing
> more than giving them the stats of a "Spirit of Man" and a few common
> powers that would go with it. I could probably cook something up if I
> wanted to, but I think it's a big assumption to believe that all GMs are
> that creative. =)

I've put guidelines for determining stats in the file, too. They now
have a
force to be used with powers (and non-free Lumini can have stats equal
to Force,
since they not as individual as a Free one.). And if the target of a
power
doesn't want to be a target, just resist the thing with Willpower (TN#
Force).
Howz that?

Ubiratan
Message no. 20
From: Grahamdrew <grahamdrew@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:51:22 -0400
Heh, Bob Hope 2058 has been a re-ocurring character in my campaigns...
Close enough?
--
DISCLAIMER: All grammatical and spelling errors are inserted
deliberately to test the software I am developing. In fact,
that is the only reason I am posting. Yeah, that's the ticket!
All my postings are just test data! Yeah!!
Message no. 21
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:08:45 -0700
----------
> From: Grahamdrew <grahamdrew@*********.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
> Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 7:51 PM
>
> Heh, Bob Hope 2058 has been a re-ocurring character in my campaigns...
> Close enough?

Is he with Dick Clark?

Dunno if I'd call him a Zeitgeist... a Horror perhaps. And I know what
he'd be saying, "But I was big in the 40s!"
"Shut up and get on the bus with the Nomad and the Wraith."

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?), you may also be interested in:

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