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Message no. 1
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: 2 handed style question
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 16:38:40 -0500
I like the two handed style rules from FoF, and was wondering if most GM's
would allow a 2 handed unarmed style. Is there any such thing in reality, IE
a martial art that takes better advantage of double strikes or blocking and
stiking at the same time?
This almost makes more sense with cyber implant weapons- are spurs and
razors automaticly considered on both hands? If not, implants in both arms
would be a definate edge and reason to develop a two handed style. If so,
why is essence free even if you have just one cyber arm?
And no, I'd never allow two handed implant monowhip fighting.
Message no. 2
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 01:03:14 -0400
On Fri, 23 Jun 1995, Sebastian Wiers wrote:

> I like the two handed style rules from FoF, and was wondering if most GM's
> would allow a 2 handed unarmed style. Is there any such thing in reality, IE
> a martial art that takes better advantage of double strikes or blocking and
> stiking at the same time?

Seems to me that although you might fight with a single sword, you'll
never fight with a single fist! Furthermore, SR does not differentiate
fists and feet, with that lead to 4-weapons attack?

> This almost makes more sense with cyber implant weapons- are spurs and
> razors automaticly considered on both hands? If not, implants in both arms
> would be a definate edge and reason to develop a two handed style. If so,
> why is essence free even if you have just one cyber arm?

I let my characters use cyber-implants in two-weapons combat. Even
though SR considers them "unarmed" weapons, they still are weapons you
know. And no, I would not let the style Fist-And-Sword. By the way, have
you figured out why someone would have a high skill in two-weapons? If
you tell me for Pool Dice, I say with twelve dice average to throw, who
needs pool dice? Better keep it for defence!

> And no, I'd never allow two handed implant monowhip fighting.
>
Neither would I!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 11:43:49 BST
O man, I hated those FoF 2-H rules, they were a bit to messy for me,
not too mention the ambidextours rules :- the bettter you are at shooting,
the worse you are with your off hand???

You know, Penalty for using the off-hand is +(Firearms - Ambedexteiry)


Wierd.....

My own fix is pretty drekky though, just let the use the off-hand at
a +2 Off-hand penalty, and a +2 2nd attack penalty if they hit someone
else.... ubnfortuantely it leafs to absolutlely lethal off-hand attacks.

Not good..

Anyone got any better?

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 4
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 12:50:15 -0400
On Sat, 24 Jun 1995, P Ward wrote:

> O man, I hated those FoF 2-H rules, they were a bit to messy for me,
> not too mention the ambidextours rules :- the bettter you are at shooting,
> the worse you are with your off hand???
>
> You know, Penalty for using the off-hand is +(Firearms - Ambedexteiry)
>
>
> Wierd.....
>
> My own fix is pretty drekky though, just let the use the off-hand at
> a +2 Off-hand penalty, and a +2 2nd attack penalty if they hit someone
> else.... ubnfortuantely it leafs to absolutlely lethal off-hand attacks.
>
> Not good..
>
> Anyone got any better?

I think the ambidexterity rule is fine. It stand to reason that the
more you are used to using your right hand, the harder it is to use the
left one. remeber that although you have a penalty equal to your skill,
you also have that number of die to throw, so I think it come out pretty
well. BTW I use the same rule for people having to fight with their off
hand, ie right handed warrior using sword in left hand.

I also do not use FoF rule for two-weapon combat. I find it weird
(althoug it IS game balancing) that someone woud know how to use two
knife, but would be completely lost when trying to use two dagger!
Instead I use the following rule, devellopped by a bunch of people, I can
post their names if need be, :

When using two weapon, the character uses the reach of the better
weapon and adds a special +1 reach(to reflect the better defense/attack
combo). He rolls the number of dice equal to his skill with the better
weapon, and may only assign a number of dice from the combat pool equal
to his skill in two-weapon combat. This is a special skill that can be
concentrated (ie Edged and Edged, Edged Cyberimplant) and
specialized(Sword and Spur, Knife and Knife). I find this rule a lot
simpler than ruling upward of 12 dice.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 17:15:35 -0500
>
> O man, I hated those FoF 2-H rules, they were a bit to messy for me,
> not too mention the ambidextours rules :- the bettter you are at shooting,
> the worse you are with your off hand???
>
> You know, Penalty for using the off-hand is +(Firearms - Ambedexteiry)
>
> My own fix is pretty drekky though, just let the use the off-hand at
> a +2 Off-hand penalty, and a +2 2nd attack penalty if they hit someone
> else.... ubnfortuantely it leafs to absolutlely lethal off-hand attacks.
>
Isn,t that pretty much standard SRII rules (I do remember somne rule for
shoting with two handguns). The ambidexterity rules made very little sense to
me, in light of the fact that there was already such a rule (I guess the
point is to have high enough ambidexterity that ther is no panalty). How does
ambidexterity affect HtH combat? do youy make 2 attacks?
See, the way I see it,two handed fighting is a completely different thing.
Thanks to those who actually replied to that question. Yeh, the rules are
dorked and pull more dice than needed, but is is the one "official" way HtH can
be made really effective (since you free up combat pool for dodging).
Message no. 6
From: Forgotten Horror <phinar@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 23:35:37 EDT
>O man, I hated those FoF 2-H rules, they were a bit to messy for me,
>not too mention the ambidextours rules :- the bettter you are at shooting,
>the worse you are with your off hand???

>You know, Penalty for using the off-hand is +(Firearms - Ambedexteiry)

>Wierd.....

I think you misunderstand the intention. It's not the better you are
with firearms, the worse you are with your off hand, but rather, the
better you are with firearms, the more the fact that you suck with
your off hand will hurt you. Realistically speaking, the increase of
target number won't affect you all that much if your skills aren't
*extremely* different. But if you have a 1 ambidexterity, you'll take
the toll when you use your 6 firearms.


<G>
(phinar@******.net)
Message no. 7
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 13:57:06 GMT
> O man, I hated those FoF 2-H rules, they were a bit to messy for me,
> not too mention the ambidextours rules :- the bettter you are at shooting,
> the worse you are with your off hand???

Yeah, it wasn't good... For Firearms we used the off-hand at +2, and
you only get smartlink bonus if you a) have two links and b) fire both
guns at the same target. We discourage double-SMG work... but this
style does work well with a pair of pistols. John Woo rules!

> My own fix is pretty drekky though, just let the use the off-hand at
> a +2 Off-hand penalty, and a +2 2nd attack penalty if they hit someone
> else.... ubnfortuantely it leafs to absolutlely lethal off-hand attacks.
> Not good..
> Anyone got any better?

For hand-to-hand and a two-weapon style we ended up trading reach: two
reach 1 weapons equal one Reach 2, or two Reach 0 add up to Reach 1.
That made learning to use a dual style useful but not the sort of
giant-killer that extra attacks give.

After all, when I fenced "for fun" after the actual training, we
found that what you did with your free hand and your feet could make
a big difference: having a knife in my off hand would have helped some,
but "freestyle" kicking the other guy's ankle could win the fight.

Basically it's hard to get realistic in combat systems: just decide the style
you want and kick the rules to make that a good way to work.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 8
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:07:00 GMT
> I think the ambidexterity rule is fine. It stand to reason that the
> more you are used to using your right hand, the harder it is to use the
> left one. remeber that although you have a penalty equal to your skill,
> you also have that number of die to throw, so I think it come out pretty
> well. BTW I use the same rule for people having to fight with their off
> hand, ie right handed warrior using sword in left hand.

Unfortunately it doesn't work... I'm right handed, but my shooting isn't
badly affected if I use my off hand. The big problem in competition
with "off hand course" shots is the draw :-) It's bad from a hip holster,
but watching someone trying to do an off-hand draw from a shoulder
rig was funny.

I've fenced left-handed too, with similar results. I think skill matters
more than which hand you're using: I just put a +2 on the use of the "off
hand", and even that may be too much: from experience I'd say it was more
like +1.

> Instead I use the following rule, devellopped by a bunch of people, I can
> post their names if need be, :
>
> When using two weapon, the character uses the reach of the better
> weapon and adds a special +1 reach(to reflect the better defense/attack
> combo). He rolls the number of dice equal to his skill with the better
> weapon, and may only assign a number of dice from the combat pool equal
> to his skill in two-weapon combat. This is a special skill that can be
> concentrated (ie Edged and Edged, Edged Cyberimplant) and
> specialized(Sword and Spur, Knife and Knife). I find this rule a lot
> simpler than ruling upward of 12 dice.

Although I disagree on the ambidexterity rule, I like this system: it's
a better-developed version of what I use and makes a lot of sense. It
also seems to reflect the way things work better, from my limited experience.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: Andy Butcher <fiend@*********.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:41:24 +0100
Sebastian wrote:

> I like the two handed style rules from FoF, and was wondering if most GM's
>would allow a 2 handed unarmed style. Is there any such thing in reality, IE
>a martial art that takes better advantage of double strikes or blocking and
>stiking at the same time?

The style of swordfighting developed by Miyamoto Musashi (the legendary
Japanese swordsman) uses both the katana and the shorter wakizashi, one in
each hand. The style is known as Niten Ryu ('two heavens school') and can
still be learnt today. Also, during the Renaisance period, it was common to
duel with a rapier in one hand and a short dagger with a basket hilt in the
other, which was mainly used for parrying.

> This almost makes more sense with cyber implant weapons- are spurs and
>razors automaticly considered on both hands? If not, implants in both arms
>would be a definate edge and reason to develop a two handed style. If so,
>why is essence free even if you have just one cyber arm?

I've always ruled that hand razors were implanted on both hands, but you
have to buy separate spurs for each arm or leg.

> And no, I'd never allow two handed implant monowhip fighting.

Good. Neither would I ;)

Andy Butcher | "Whether you think you will succeed
PC Gamer Magazine | or not, you are right."
Fiend@*********.co.uk | Henry Ford
Message no. 10
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:18:18 BST
> And no, I'd never allow two handed implant monowhip fighting


I can just about see two monowhips at the same time being possible,
especially if you had them cybernetically implanted in a fingertip
compartment, and had the reeler on a cyber-control..

That said, I can't see you being able to do much with them bar
whirling them both round at once, in the LRP'ers favourite, the
Conan Web of Death (Tm,. all rights reserved, waffle....).

Let the PC use two monowhips, then laugh as he achieves no successes
with the off-hand at +2 penalty and +2 for 2nd attack, and +2 for a
different target, then laugh as he egg-tops himself :-0

They'll soon stop and go back to using sensible Predators :-)

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 11
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:33:39 BST
Yeah, it wasn't good... For Firearms we used the off-hand at +2, and
you only get smartlink bonus if you a) have two links and b) fire both
guns at the same target. We discourage double-SMG work... but this
style does work well with a pair of pistols. John Woo rules!

That's exactly how I do it, except that you keep the sight (hey,
some runners till use lasers ;-0 ) bonus for the primary hand,
and to discourage SMG's, you still have the recoil from one hands
crosses over to the other as well :-) You try keeping two Berretta
200St's with no recoil bar strength on target :-)


'Kick the other guy's ankles'?, jeeze, and I thought fencers were
real fair-play types!

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 20:19:08 +0930
P Ward wrote:
>
> > And no, I'd never allow two handed implant monowhip fighting
>
>
> I can just about see two monowhips at the same time being possible,
> especially if you had them cybernetically implanted in a fingertip
> compartment, and had the reeler on a cyber-control..
>
> That said, I can't see you being able to do much with them bar
> whirling them both round at once, in the LRP'ers favourite, the
> Conan Web of Death (Tm,. all rights reserved, waffle....).

You forgot slicing yourself into so many french fries...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 13
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:54:57 BST
Didn't I say egg-top? Damn, this mailer must be getting funny on me again...

Egg-top, french-fries, same difference.

Main thing is letting them try it and watching them fall into
two halves, I;ve seen it done, PC went in with 6 and 6 phys/mental,
and came out floating down the river with another serious for her
trouble, spent a lot of money on hospital bills and de-tox for the
pollution she ingested while floating :-)

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 14
From: Peter Bailey <pbailey@*****.IPSWICHCITY.QLD.GOV.AU>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:01:06 +0200
Hi Sebastian,

> I like the two handed style rules from FoF, and was wondering if most GM's
> would allow a 2 handed unarmed style. Is there any such thing in reality, IE
> a martial art that takes better advantage of double strikes or blocking and
> stiking at the same time?
> This almost makes more sense with cyber implant weapons- are spurs and
> razors automaticly considered on both hands? If not, implants in both arms
> would be a definate edge and reason to develop a two handed style. If so,
> why is essence free even if you have just one cyber arm?
> And no, I'd never allow two handed implant monowhip fighting.

Personally, I would not allow a 2 handed unarmed style as such, because I
consider all unarmed combat to be 2 handed anyway.
Message no. 15
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2 handed style question
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:48:15 -0400
>
> Hi Sebastian,
>
> > I like the two handed style rules from FoF, and was wondering if most GM's
> > would allow a 2 handed unarmed style. Is there any such thing in reality, IE
> > a martial art that takes better advantage of double strikes or blocking and
> > stiking at the same time?
> > This almost makes more sense with cyber implant weapons- are spurs and
> > razors automaticly considered on both hands? If not, implants in both arms
> > would be a definate edge and reason to develop a two handed style. If so,
> > why is essence free even if you have just one cyber arm?
> > And no, I'd never allow two handed implant monowhip fighting.
>
> Personally, I would not allow a 2 handed unarmed style as such, because I
> consider all unarmed combat to be 2 handed anyway.
>
IMHO:
I would be hesitant to allow two handed unarmed in SR. Armed and unarmed
combat are highly abstracted...this means that someone doing a moderate
wound by way of unarmed combat could have hit the guy once or several
times with more than one fist...the accumulated effect of the attack
action is the moderate.

Since single weapon armed combatants are generaly more common than
two-handers the damage codes represent their potential for doing damage. The
two handed armed rules simply allows for the higher potential for doing
damage with two weapons than one. In the case of unarmed combat, so many
styles appear to use both hands and/or feet anyways there really isn't likely
to be a reason for a special "two-handed" unarmed combat skill.

If anyone else has an opinion I would definately like to hear it...I have
been experimenting with these rules myself in my current campaign.

______________________________________________________________________________
Blair A. Monroe | bmonroe@******.fsu.edu | GLS/TW GC2.1
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