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Message no. 1
From: "L.T.Bryant" <cs5025@***.AC.UK>
Subject: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 12:52:25 +0100
Just a note on the purchase of ex millatry fighter aircraft,
Here in the UK a plane known as the Hawker Hunter was used a
fair few years ago , Now this was in the times when gun power
was still highly thought of and so the Air Frame was designed
with a winch in drop out gun pack consisting of Four 25mm auto
cannon and there ammo , now the plane cant fly without this pack
, and several have ended up in the hands of individuals, Now
they may have the gun pack replaced with a properly weighted
section, but the ability to mount the things is unafected, Also
if you want some truly diturbing news there are at least 3
privatly owned V- Bombers in the UK ( i think at least 2 are
vulcans) and these have enough legs to do some real damage .


Milatry vechicle do have maitenance problems as people
have mentioned , old ones also have fatige problems that mean
large parts need replacing, If the PCs get that euro fighter and
you want to make the thing to damm expensive to keep, well have
it had a couple of lax overhalls so the wing struts, etc need
replacing due to fatige damage, the players then have a choise
make it themselfs ( do you have large chunks of the correct
alloy and a full workshop and the designs ) , Or they can try to
nick the bits ..... Imagane 4 runners trying to get a 4meter
long wing rib out of any where... It should be fun to see them
try.

enough blatering though.........back to our regularly scheduled
lunicy
Lawrence Bryant
--
oh rose thou art sick
the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL
Message no. 2
From: Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 11:57:31 -0400
True, the US government doesn't sell fighters to private citizens, but
other countries sure do. Got an extra 25 milion, go to Russia and get
your self a nice used Mig-25. And places like North Korea do it to. I
have a friend in PA who buys old military planes for a museum. He
arranged for some millionare to buy a Mig-17 jet from N. Korea. When he
received shipment, the missles were still on and the cannons still
loaded. Customs was not ammused. Cost him like an extra 100 thou to have
them removed and balanced. NOw, the Mig-17 is old, but it's still a jet
fighter in good shape. If Customs wasn't on its toes...
Message no. 3
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 12:12:39 -0500
On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, Alex van der Kleut wrote:

> NOw, the Mig-17 is old, but it's still a jet
> fighter in good shape. If Customs wasn't on its toes...

And a little negotiation with a black-market gun runner can get some guns
and missiles for his Mig-17.

Of course, US pilots would make mincemeat out of it in a dogfight, but it
could still work.

And besides, bombs are REAL easy to build (ye olde MacGyver treatment)
and I bet you could hang a few on. Nice way to blow up that kid down the
block that plays that rap music all night long.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
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Message no. 4
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 13:24:23 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert A Hayden
<hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU> writes:

Robert> Of course, US pilots would make mincemeat out of it in a dogfight,
Robert> but it could still work.

Um, that's what people say about the A-4 Skyhawk and the F-5 Tiger II when
they fly them against Top Gun and Red Flag students. Guess what? The A-4s
and F-5s being flown by the instructors get significantly more kills than
the students in their F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, and F/A-18s. The better pilot
will beat the better machine almost every time.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |Earth, presumably from outer space.
Message no. 5
From: "Wesley W. Walker" <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 12:35:07 -0500
> Um, that's what people say about the A-4 Skyhawk and the F-5 Tiger II when
> they fly them against Top Gun and Red Flag students. Guess what? The A-4s
> and F-5s being flown by the instructors get significantly more kills than
> the students in their F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, and F/A-18s. The better pilot
> will beat the better machine almost every time.


Is that smoke I smell? Anyway...

I for one certainly hope our pilots flying over the Gulf aren't
'students'. And, face it, the F- series jets are far superior to most
other modern jet available today on a large scale laden with some of the
most accurate weaponry currently available to man. And in the last
confrontation with Iraq, it seemed that our pilots *are* among the best
in the world on par with the instructors, and I must note, that the
instructors go on active duty and *are* the ones in the F- series jets. So
Good Pilots + Good Machine = Ass Kicking in the Gulf. Heh. :)


||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
/\ / 3 * Wes W. Walker *
/\\\ /\ / * Raving Lunatics Association Member *
\\\\\ /\\\ / * CSCI amatuer & Artiste wanna-be *
\\\\\ /\\\\\ / * *
\\\\\ / \\\\\ / * "This is a test of the e-mail *
\\\\\/ \\\\\/ * broadcast system. If this was an *
\\\/ \\\/ * actual emergency, you'd be dead." *
\/ \/ es * -vaguely Eric Chuang *
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Message no. 6
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 14:13:53 -0400
>>>>> "Wesley" == Wesley W Walker <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
writes:

Wesley> Is that smoke I smell? Anyway...

Not really, just a fact.

Wesley> I for one certainly hope our pilots flying over the Gulf aren't
Wesley> 'students'.

Any of our pilots who go to Top Gun or Red Flag are students. They go there
to learn how to fly and fight better than they learn in flight and tactics
school. That's didn't you know that Top Gun and Red Flag are "elite"
fighter combat training schools? That's at least one thing the movie "Top
Gun" got right.

Wesley> And, face it, the F- series jets are far superior to most other
Wesley> modern jet available today on a large scale laden with some of the
Wesley> most accurate weaponry currently available to man.

Ummm... now this is a flame: go look at the MiG-29 and the Su-27, the
current generation of Russion air superiority fighters, and you'll find
aircraft that are at least as capable as ours, if not better. Right now,
all else being equal, I'd put my money on the MiG-29 instead of the F-16.
It's faster (speed=superiority=victory), and slightly better in the
maneuverability department.

As for the weapons systems, Russia has been ahead of us in IR imaging and
targeting technology by about 2 years for at least a decade. IR targeting
means reduced need for active radar, which makes you a hell of a lot harder
to detect because you're not constantly broadcasting, yet can still
reliably and accurately target the enemy. When you can see them but they
can't see you, you have a tremendous advantage.

BTW, "F" isn't a "series" designation, it's a mission designation,
"fighter" and that's it, just as "B" is for bombers, "A" is
for ground
attack aircraft, etc. Any "figher" aircraft in US service gets an "F"
designation, just like the Israeli K-firs we borrowed a few years back;
they got designated "F-21." It's been in use since the end of World War II,
as prop-driven pursuit (P) aircraft were replaced with jet-propelled
fighters.

Don't confuse that with the various Russian "designations" because they're
not that, either; they're the design bureau responsible for the design and
manufacture of the aircraft: MiG is Mikoyan Guerevich, Su is Sukhoi, Yak is
Yakolev, MiL is Mikoyan Lubyanka (I think...), etc. MiG-29 is the 29th
design from the Mikoyan Guerevich bureau.

Wesley> And in the last confrontation with Iraq, it seemed that our pilots
Wesley> *are* among the best in the world on par with the instructors,

Considering that less than 1/10th of 1% of the Iraqui pilots ever got off
the ground, that's a pretty uninformed statement.

Wesley> and I must note, that the instructors go on active duty and *are*
Wesley> the ones in the F- series jets.

No, they don't. The way the military mind works is that if you're good,
you're sent to the lines; if you're real good, you get kept behind to
teach. Instructors don't get sent to the lines. They're considered too
valuable as resources. Only in the absolutely most desperate situations
would instructors be transferred to a line position.

Wesley> So Good Pilots + Good Machine = Ass Kicking in the Gulf. Heh. :)

My, my, we're very much uninformed about how the real world works, aren't we.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 7
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 11:25:02 -0700
On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, L.T.Bryant wrote:

> Just a note on the purchase of ex millatry fighter aircraft,
> Here in the UK a plane known as the Hawker Hunter was used a
> fair few years ago , Now this was in the times when gun power
> was still highly thought of and so the Air Frame was designed
> with a winch in drop out gun pack consisting of Four 25mm auto
> cannon and there ammo , now the plane cant fly without this pack
> , and several have ended up in the hands of individuals, Now

Are these "His Lordship's" or "Her Ladyship's" craft? Are you
sure these "private individuals" aren't SAS, or MI5, or MI6, or somehow
quite-unofficially-but-nevertheless-connected with the government?
Official Secrets Act, you know. They can hide anything that has
to do with national defense ...

> Lawrence Bryant

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 8
From: "Wesley W. Walker" <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 13:33:50 -0500
> Wesley> And, face it, the F- series jets are far superior to most other
> Wesley> modern jet available today on a large scale laden with some of the
> Wesley> most accurate weaponry currently available to man.
>
> Ummm... now this is a flame: go look at the MiG-29 and the Su-27, the
> current generation of Russion air superiority fighters, and you'll find
> aircraft that are at least as capable as ours, if not better. Right now,
> all else being equal, I'd put my money on the MiG-29 instead of the F-16.
> It's faster (speed=superiority=victory), and slightly better in the
> maneuverability department.

Hmm...I believe I said 'most other modern jets' <meant to put the 's',
really I did> And I agree that the MIG's are good. Damn good.

>
> As for the weapons systems, Russia has been ahead of us in IR imaging and
> targeting technology by about 2 years for at least a decade. IR targeting
> means reduced need for active radar, which makes you a hell of a lot harder
> to detect because you're not constantly broadcasting, yet can still
> reliably and accurately target the enemy. When you can see them but they
> can't see you, you have a tremendous advantage.
>
We can do that too. Heh.


> BTW, "F" isn't a "series" designation, it's a mission
designation,
> "fighter" and that's it, just as "B" is for bombers,
"A" is for ground
> attack aircraft, etc. Any "figher" aircraft in US service gets an
"F"
> designation, just like the Israeli K-firs we borrowed a few years back;
> they got designated "F-21." It's been in use since the end of World War II,
> as prop-driven pursuit (P) aircraft were replaced with jet-propelled
> fighters.
>
I know I know.. Duh, Don't get on my word usage. Jeeze.

> Wesley> And in the last confrontation with Iraq, it seemed that our pilots
> Wesley> *are* among the best in the world on par with the instructors,

> Considering that less than 1/10th of 1% of the Iraqui pilots ever got off
> the ground, that's a pretty uninformed statement.

Well, there's quality for you. And I wonder why they didn't get of the
ground...Did they not know we were coming?

> Wesley> and I must note, that the instructors go on active duty and *are*
> Wesley> the ones in the F- series jets.

> No, they don't. The way the military mind works is that if you're good,
> you're sent to the lines; if you're real good, you get kept behind to
> teach. Instructors don't get sent to the lines. They're considered too
> valuable as resources. Only in the absolutely most desperate situations
> would instructors be transferred to a line position.

Check. I'll give you that one, I'm not a military <politico bastiches and
idiots> fan. But air superiority is air superiority, many of them do, I
suspect they have Asst. Instructors that could stand some flight time,
but as I said. I wouldn't know.

> Wesley> So Good Pilots + Good Machine = Ass Kicking in the Gulf. Heh. :)
^^^^
*NOTE: the smiley *was* included. COOL OFF.

> My, my, we're very much uninformed about how the real world works, aren't we.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now *that's* a flame. I'll get my marshmellows.

Anyway, not as if I'd really want to deal with all those jets flying
around in my campaigns. Too much of instant death to keep it interesting..


\|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||/
/\ / 3 - Wes W. Walker -
/\\\ /\ / - Member of the League of Agnostics -
\\\\\ /\\\ / - Anarchs Artistes and Sociopaths -
\\\\\ /\\\\\ / - wwalker@****.uark.edu -
\\\\\ / \\\\\ / -------------------------------------
\\\\\/ \\\\\/ - "Does that come in buttered -
\\\/ \\\/ - pecan?" -
\/ \/ es - -Me -
/|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\
Message no. 9
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 14:47:04 -0400
>>>>> "Wesley" == Wesley W Walker <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
writes:

>> As for the weapons systems, Russia has been ahead of us in IR imaging and
>> targeting technology by about 2 years for at least a decade. [...]
Wesley> We can do that too. Heh.

No, we can't. Right now Russia has air superiority over the US if they
wanted to use it. Their pilots are as good as ours, and their equipment is
as good if not better than ours.

[...]
Wesley> And in the last confrontation with Iraq, it seemed that our pilots
Wesley> *are* among the best in the world on par with the instructors,
>> Considering that less than 1/10th of 1% of the Iraqui pilots ever got
>> off the ground, that's a pretty uninformed statement.
Wesley> Well, there's quality for you. And I wonder why they didn't get of
Wesley> the ground...Did they not know we were coming?

No, we bombed the living shit out of their airfields before they could take
off and smashed them with Wild Weasels whenever they turned on their radar.
The Coalition forces had total air superiority from day 1.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 10
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 14:43:04 -0400
This exact same thread shows up every few months: lots of people,
at least 75% of whom have no reason AT ALL to have any idea what they're
talking about (don't flame back, I know some of you are knowledgable about
it), all arguing about which is the best modern fighter jet.
But I must appeal to you all to stop arguing about this on the
list, unless you can relate it directly to Shadowrun. I'd be overjoyed
to see one of you write up stats for inclusion in NERPS: Shadowlore II,
BTW. Just don't make me watch you argue about it on ShadowRN.

/-----------------\
| J.D. Falk | 29% of Americans believe that Elvis Presley
| jdfalk@****.com | was right to shoot his television sets.
\-----------------/
Message no. 11
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 12:58:53 -0700
On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> No, we can't. Right now Russia has air superiority over the US if they
> wanted to use it. Their pilots are as good as ours, and their equipment is
> as good if not better than ours.

Hmmm. I thought we had the advantage in several key areas.

1) AWACS -- Looking at the specs of the E-2C (and E-3C's)
radars, I thought we had better look down/shoot down, targetting (J-STARS
can pick out tanks and infantry on the ground!) and vectoring capabilities.
2) Missiles -- I had the impression that AIM-9L was still pretty
good, AMRAAM much better and Phoenix not shabby -- and the last two have
significant range to take advantage of item 1).
3) Stealth -- Although we got the radar cross-section theorems
from a Russian physicist, they haven't done any stealth research because
they only had two middlin' SAMs to beat in our inventory, Hawk and
Patriot whereas we have to beat SA-1 through 16, a damn fine inventory.
Now, I don't think the above are necessarily going to guarantee
us total air superiority, especially if the Russians have good IR
imaging, but I'm pretty sure we wouldn't just roll over and concede the
point. And I don't think they are in a position to force us to.
Although, yes I have heard the new Su-27 Flanker and MiG-31
Fulcrums are quite good (in fact the MiG-31 seems to be an improved F-15
design while the Su-27 seems to be an improved F-18 Hornet). In fact,
I'm pretty sure that's why the Air Force decided it had to have the F-22,
because the F-15's and -16's were more or less outclassed. And their new
AAMs were starting to be quite a serious problem as well. So perhaps a
wing of F-15's versus a wing of MiG-31's wouldn't be such a good match
after all, especially since they could blitz the AWACS with their
super-speedy MiG-25's. But factor in F-117's, hmmm it would be an
interesting one but it's way off topic so ....

> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 12
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 16:21:20 -0400
>>>>> "Adam" == Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
writes:

Adam> Hmmm. I thought we had the advantage in several key areas.

Adam> 1) AWACS -- Looking at the specs of the E-2C (and E-3C's) radars, I
Adam> thought we had better look down/shoot down, targetting (J-STARS can
Adam> pick out tanks and infantry on the ground!) and vectoring
Adam> capabilities.

Look-down, shoot-down is great for attack aircraft; it's next to
meaningless in a furball. J-STARS is a /long/ way from going into anything
remotely resembling mass production, and AWACS is only as good as the
people in the jets (look at the recent IFF fiasco in the Persian Gulf).

Adam> 2) Missiles -- I had the impression that AIM-9L was still pretty
Adam> good, AMRAAM much better and Phoenix not shabby -- and the last two
Adam> have significant range to take advantage of item 1).

AMRAAM got canceled, Phoenix is for "non-maneuvering targets" (read big
bombers). AIM-9 seriously needs a replacement (and that got canceled, too).
The RAM designes are a long way from going into service, too.

Adam> 3) Stealth -- Although we got the radar cross-section theorems from a
Adam> Russian physicist, they haven't done any stealth research because
Adam> they only had two middlin' SAMs to beat in our inventory, Hawk and
Adam> Patriot whereas we have to beat SA-1 through 16, a damn fine
Adam> inventory.

Stealth isn't everything. And and like look-down, shoot-down, it's next to
useless in a furball, especially when the enemy is using IR to acquire you.

Adam> Now, I don't think the above are necessarily going to guarantee us
Adam> total air superiority, especially if the Russians have good IR
Adam> imaging, but I'm pretty sure we wouldn't just roll over and concede
Adam> the point. And I don't think they are in a position to force us to.

Well, they do have superiority. Maybe only by a hair right now, but they've
got it. And with the current state of missile research in Russia, that gap
is going to widen.

Adam> Although, yes I have heard the new Su-27 Flanker and MiG-31 Fulcrums
Adam> are quite good (in fact the MiG-31 seems to be an improved F-15
Adam> design while the Su-27 seems to be an improved F-18 Hornet). In
Adam> fact, I'm pretty sure that's why the Air Force decided it had to have
Adam> the F-22, because the F-15's and -16's were more or less outclassed.
Adam> And their new AAMs were starting to be quite a serious problem as
Adam> well. So perhaps a wing of F-15's versus a wing of MiG-31's wouldn't
Adam> be such a good match after all, especially since they could blitz the
Adam> AWACS with their super-speedy MiG-25's. But factor in F-117's, hmmm
Adam> it would be an interesting one but it's way off topic so ....

Ummm... F-117s are attack aircraft, not dogfighters, so count them out. The
F-15s are seriously aging, and the F-16 is a piece of shit :). Maybe if we
can get the F-22 into production the balance will shift again, but right
now, Russia's got better than the US.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 13
From: "CHAPMAN, DANIEL LEE" <DANIELC@*****.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 16:33:15 EST
What in the sam hell does this have to do with Shadowrun?:-)
Let's stick to the topic at hand.
Message no. 14
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 15:49:34 -0500
On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Ummm... F-117s are attack aircraft, not dogfighters, so count them out. The
> F-15s are seriously aging, and the F-16 is a piece of shit :). Maybe if we
> can get the F-22 into production the balance will shift again, but right
> now, Russia's got better than the US.

I was partial to the F-23 over the F-22. I was a better aircraft all
around, and looked scarier. Of course, the politics of government
contracts flushed that away. I think the F-18 is a good aircraft. It's
not perfect at everything, but it is a good all-around aircraft and is
cheap to produce in quantity (comparied to the -14, -15 or -16).

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or anyone else
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 2.1) GJ/CM d- H-- s-:++>s-:+ g+ p? au+ a- w++ v* C++(++++) UL++++$
P+>++ L++$ 3- E---- N+++ K+++ W M+ V-- -po+(---)>$ Y++ t+ 5+++
j R+++$ G- tv+ b+ D+ B--- e+>++(*) u** h* f r-->+++ !n y++**
Message no. 15
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 19:55:22 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert A Hayden
<hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU> writes:

Robert> I was partial to the F-23 over the F-22. I was a better aircraft all
Robert> around, and looked scarier.

<snicker>

The rest is going personal.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Message no. 16
From: Enos Michel CDT <x62674f3@******.USMA.EDU>
Subject: 2nd Hand fighters
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 20:00:30 EDT
Come on guys, this isn't even close to being SR relevent, and some of your
assumptions are just plain wrong.There is a LOT more to take into account that
just one on one performance to determine something like 'air superiority.'
My two cents, so back to your regularly scheduled list...


__ __ _________
| \ / | | ______|
________________________| |\ \ / /| |_| |____ ______________________________
Mike Enos | | \_/ | | | ____| West Point
CDT SGT, Co. F-3 USCC | | | | | |______ x62674f3@******.usma.edu
------------------------|__|-------|__|-|_________|----------------------------
Message no. 17
From: Jay Downey <DOWNEYJ_at_IM1@******.MILDENHALL.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re[2]: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 14:08:49 GMT
On 18 Oct, Wes wrote>

>Check. I'll give you that one, I'm not a military ***<politico bastiches
and idiots>*** fan.

I would watch how you say that:). Big Brother is always watching. As
one of these politico bastiches and idiots, I definitely appreciate
what my comrades in arms did during the war. (BTW, The Air Force is
the only ***Necessary****** Military Branch if you just want to kick
ass. (We do, however, need ground troops to occupy territory, so the
Army and Marines do serve a purpose other than drawing enemy fire(:^))


(P.S. Wes, If you really want to discuss the above mentioned groups,
E-mail me and we can discuss the Civilian Counterparts:))


Wingnut
E-Mail downeyj@******.mildenhall.af.mil
Message no. 18
From: Jay Downey <DOWNEYJ_at_IM1@******.MILDENHALL.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re[2]: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 14:13:23 GMT
18 Oct, Wes wrote>

>Check. I'll give you that one, I'm not a military ***<politico bastiches
and idiots>*** fan.

I would watch how you say that:). Big Brother is always watching. As
one of these politico bastiches and idiots, I definitely appreciate
what my comrades in arms did during the war. (BTW, The Air Force is
the only ***Necessary****** Military Branch if you just want to kick
ass. (We do, however, need ground troops to occupy territory, so the
Army and Marines do serve a purpose other than drawing enemy fire(:^))


(P.S. Wes, If you really want to discuss the above mentioned groups,
E-mail me and we can discuss the Civilian Counterparts:))


Wingnut
E-Mail downeyj@******.mildenhall.af.mil
Message no. 19
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: 2nd hand fighters
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 19:12:06 +1000
Yep, I have now begun to receive two copies of posts, any ideas why?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+

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