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Message no. 1
From: "Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:49:37 -0600
Okay, now, generally people have one hand that they favor and for some
reason can't work as well with the other. Does anyone have some "Off-hand"
house rules "On-hand?" Please send me a link or two. I'm trying to work
rules on this into my games.

Also, I would love some rules about using two weapons at once. I know
size/weight must matter. Plus, there would have to be a penalty for shooting
at two different targets (I think the rules for that are in BBB). Lastly,
would having two weapons ready allow a person to fire 4 SA shots or worse
yet 4 BF shots during a single combat phase?
Message no. 2
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:59:09 -0500
On Tue, Jan 20, 1998 at 01:49:37PM -0600, Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr. wrote:
> Okay, now, generally people have one hand that they favor and for some
> reason can't work as well with the other. Does anyone have some "Off-hand"
> house rules "On-hand?" Please send me a link or two. I'm trying to work
> rules on this into my games.
>
> Also, I would love some rules about using two weapons at once. I know
> size/weight must matter. Plus, there would have to be a penalty for shooting
> at two different targets (I think the rules for that are in BBB). Lastly,
> would having two weapons ready allow a person to fire 4 SA shots or worse
> yet 4 BF shots during a single combat phase?

Rules for this appear in FoF, and BBB. There are also lots of
house rules about it. And the SrComp has am edge listed as well.
Hopefully someone else will have their books handy.
I also apply some common sense here, and sometimes require a special
skill devoted to it. (Most humans, with normal arms, can barely
shoot one heavy pistol, much less two, contrary to movies).
A smartlink in each arm, may also be useful.
Later.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 3
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:31:49 -0500
> From: Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr. <gilmeth@*********.COM>
> Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 2:49 PM

> Okay, now, generally people have one hand that they favor and for some
> reason can't work as well with the other. Does anyone have some
"Off-hand"
> house rules "On-hand?" Please send me a link or two. I'm trying to work
> rules on this into my games.

Sure. Everyone has a dominant hand, unless they purchase the
Ambidexterious Edge in the Companion. When using your off hand, apply a +2
TN to all tests, IIRC.

> Also, I would love some rules about using two weapons at once. I know
> size/weight must matter. Plus, there would have to be a penalty for
shooting
> at two different targets (I think the rules for that are in BBB). Lastly,
> would having two weapons ready allow a person to fire 4 SA shots or worse
> yet 4 BF shots during a single combat phase?

Yep. You can buy a paired weapon skill to use two weapons simultaneously
(that's for armed combat only). However, the second weapon must be smaller
and lighter than the first (unless they are both knives). Thus, you could
learn paired knives, or katana and knife, etc. Each paired skill is it's
own skill....buy it up as you would a general skill. Then, what you do is
roll skill dice for both weapons, and you can allot a number of dice from
your combat pool UP TO the paired weapons skill. Damage is the average of
the two weapons. When in doubt, round down.

Example:

Joe Sam has armed combat/edged weapons/katana skill of 1/3/5. He has a
paired katana/knife skill of 2. Thus, when he fights with both weapons
(one in each hand), he rolls 3 dice for the knife, 5 dice for the katana,
and can allot up to 2 dice from his Combat Pool to augment the test. Joe
has a Strength of 4, so he would normally do 7M damage with a Katana and
4L damage with a knife. Average that to 5L damage (which is staged up as
usual).

If Joe Sam had a paired knives skill instead, he would have rolled 6 dice
(3 + 3) and have done a base of 4L damage.

Obviously, this makes the character pretty powerful when higher numbers are
involved, so you have to be careful how often you allow this and may wish
to add some house rules that make it harder to get a paired weapon skill or
whatever. I haven't decided on what house rules to use yet, but no one's
really asked to have such a skill, so I'm not worried about it yet. If I
were to add such a rule, I would make the paired skill cost more karma or
take more time or something.

Hope that helps,

Justin :)
Message no. 4
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 01:33:58 +0000
In article <002501bd25dd$27963f00$bd2dd3aa@*****.CPS>, "Boyd Stephen
Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM> writes
>Okay, now, generally people have one hand that they favor and for some
>reason can't work as well with the other. Does anyone have some "Off-hand"
>house rules "On-hand?" Please send me a link or two. I'm trying to work
>rules on this into my games.

Others have a dominant hand and a dominant eye. For instance, I shot
pistol for years with my right hand and my left eye, while for rifles it
was right hand and right eye. Don't ask me why, I just shot better like
that...

I could shoot adequately left-handed. Maybe a +1 penalty? But then I
practiced off-hand shooting.

>Also, I would love some rules about using two weapons at once. I know
>size/weight must matter. Plus, there would have to be a penalty for shooting
>at two different targets (I think the rules for that are in BBB).

I'd say that useful fire from two weapons could _only_ be directed at
one target at a time.

>Lastly,
>would having two weapons ready allow a person to fire 4 SA shots or worse
>yet 4 BF shots during a single combat phase?

Yep. At a penalty. Our house rule was +2 for both hands, and Smartlinks
only counted if you had two full-cost links and directed both hands'
fire at a single target.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 5
From: Aaron Jones <aaronj@******.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:12:24 -0500
>In article <002501bd25dd$27963f00$bd2dd3aa@*****.CPS>, "Boyd Stephen
>Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM> writes
>>Okay, now, generally people have one hand that they favor and for some
>>reason can't work as well with the other. Does anyone have some
"Off-hand"
>>house rules "On-hand?" Please send me a link or two. I'm trying to work
>>rules on this into my games.
>
>Others have a dominant hand and a dominant eye. For instance, I shot
>pistol for years with my right hand and my left eye, while for rifles it
>was right hand and right eye. Don't ask me why, I just shot better like
>that...
>
>I could shoot adequately left-handed. Maybe a +1 penalty? But then I
>practiced off-hand shooting.
>
>>Also, I would love some rules about using two weapons at once. I know
>>size/weight must matter. Plus, there would have to be a penalty for shooting
>>at two different targets (I think the rules for that are in BBB).
>
>I'd say that useful fire from two weapons could _only_ be directed at
>one target at a time.
>
>>Lastly,
>>would having two weapons ready allow a person to fire 4 SA shots or worse
>>yet 4 BF shots during a single combat phase?
>
>Yep. At a penalty. Our house rule was +2 for both hands, and Smartlinks
>only counted if you had two full-cost links and directed both hands'
>fire at a single target.
>
Official rules say you lose any smartlink or laser sight bonuses
when using 2 weapons, PLUS there is a +2 modifier to the TN, PLUS recoil
carries over from hand to hand...Trust me, the rules aren't that bad...I
made a character with 2 manhunters and 2 martlinks and a firearms of 6. My
GM and I retired him after 2 game sessions. Even I thought he was too
powerful for the campaign and I was still being muchy :)

Aaron (Still looking for a SIG) Jones
aaronj@******.com
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:53:03 +0100
Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr. said on 13:49/20 Jan 98...

> Okay, now, generally people have one hand that they favor and for some
> reason can't work as well with the other. Does anyone have some "Off-hand"
> house rules "On-hand?" Please send me a link or two. I'm trying to work
> rules on this into my games.

There are off-hand rules in Fields of Fire, but they're not among my
favorite SR house rules.

> Also, I would love some rules about using two weapons at once. I know
> size/weight must matter.

It's simply a +2 to both weapons, laser sights and smartlinks give no
TN modifier, and recoil from one weapon also applies to the other one.
This is explained under Using A Second Firearm on page 90 of SRII.

> Plus, there would have to be a penalty for shooting at two different
> targets (I think the rules for that are in BBB).

There's a +2 for each additional target, because you have to shift your
attention in such a short time.

> Lastly, would having two weapons ready allow a person to fire 4 SA shots
> or worse yet 4 BF shots during a single combat phase?

Yes. Even two 15-round bursts from a supermachinegun -- at a +30 recoil
modifier to both guns *GM grin*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Aan cultuur doe je maar thuis.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:53:03 +0100
Aaron Jones said on 0:12/21 Jan 98...

> Official rules say you lose any smartlink or laser sight bonuses
> when using 2 weapons, PLUS there is a +2 modifier to the TN, PLUS recoil
> carries over from hand to hand...Trust me, the rules aren't that bad...I
> made a character with 2 manhunters and 2 martlinks and a firearms of 6. My
> GM and I retired him after 2 game sessions. Even I thought he was too
> powerful for the campaign and I was still being muchy :)

The decker in my current campaign carries two heavy pistols and usually
uses them both at once. She doesn't hit all that much with them, though,
mainly because of a low Firearms skill and not enough Strength to bring
the recoil down. However, a typical street sam with the same combo could
be quite deadly I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Aan cultuur doe je maar thuis.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 8
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:23:42 +0100
At 11:53 21/01/1998 +0100, you wrote:
<<KASNIP>>

>Yes. Even two 15-round bursts from a supermachinegun -- at a +30 recoil
>modifier to both guns *GM grin*
***
But it comes in real handy when there's one of 'em _huge_ queues at the
MacDonalds... There will be nothing left standing, including yourself... ;)

Jod, who just had a _great_ idea.
chatin@*******.nl
http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/page.htm
IDM
MAle
Message no. 9
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:32:39 +0000
On 21 Jan 98, J. G. du Chatinier disseminated foul capitalist
propaganda by writing:

> At 11:53 21/01/1998 +0100, you wrote:
> <<KASNIP>>
>
> >Yes. Even two 15-round bursts from a supermachinegun -- at a +30 recoil
> >modifier to both guns *GM grin*
> ***
> But it comes in real handy when there's one of 'em _huge_ queues at
> the MacDonalds... There will be nothing left standing, including
> yourself... ;)

Actually, two supersubmachineguns are great for providing suppression
fire... <grin>

Am I wrong, or are the recoil modifiers not used when covering an
area with suppressive fire?


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y()-*
Personal feelings don't make for good politics, legal decisions, or business deals. -
Corwin
Message no. 10
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:41:54 -0600
Lehlan Decker wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jan 20, 1998 at 01:49:37PM -0600, Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr. wrote:
> > Okay, now, generally people have one hand that they favor and for some
> > reason can't work as well with the other. Does anyone have some
"Off-hand"
> > house rules "On-hand?" Please send me a link or two. I'm trying to
work
> > rules on this into my games.
> >
> > Also, I would love some rules about using two weapons at once. I know
> > size/weight must matter. Plus, there would have to be a penalty for shooting
> > at two different targets (I think the rules for that are in BBB). Lastly,
> > would having two weapons ready allow a person to fire 4 SA shots or worse
> > yet 4 BF shots during a single combat phase?
>
> Rules for this appear in FoF, and BBB. There are also lots of
> house rules about it. And the SrComp has am edge listed as well.
> Hopefully someone else will have their books handy.
> I also apply some common sense here, and sometimes require a special
> skill devoted to it. (Most humans, with normal arms, can barely
> shoot one heavy pistol, much less two, contrary to movies).
> A smartlink in each arm, may also be useful.
> Later.

The edge exist in SrComp and FoF covers it pretty well, two smart links
are a good thing to have.
why a special skill or is that to overcome the negitive effects for the
second weapon? if the person did not take the edge they have to deal
with some pretty nasty modifiers for the off hand gun...
--

Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough
to make you make your second shot perfect.
Message no. 11
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:57:12 -0500
On Wed, Jan 21, 1998 at 08:41:54AM -0600, s c rose wrote:
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> >
<SNIP>
> >
> > Rules for this appear in FoF, and BBB. There are also lots of
> > house rules about it. And the SrComp has am edge listed as well.
> > Hopefully someone else will have their books handy.
> > I also apply some common sense here, and sometimes require a special
> > skill devoted to it. (Most humans, with normal arms, can barely
> > shoot one heavy pistol, much less two, contrary to movies).
> > A smartlink in each arm, may also be useful.
> > Later.
>
> The edge exist in SrComp and FoF covers it pretty well, two smart links
> are a good thing to have.
> why a special skill or is that to overcome the negitive effects for the
> second weapon? if the person did not take the edge they have to deal
> with some pretty nasty modifiers for the off hand gun...
> --
I patterened it after the rules for two melee weapons.
Ambidextrous is being able to perhaps write with both hands and
is fairly rare. (Particulary someone who is true ambidextrous, not
just you can read what they wrote :))
Now being able to shoot with the left or right hand
is one thing. Both at once, rarer still.
(I can shoot with either hand, but my left hand is signifigantly worse,
so I always devote a bit more time to it)
You may be an incredible shot with a single pistol or smg, but
both at once deserves a special skill (ala extra karma) IMHO.
(I've only had two characters who have ever asked/tried this
by the way. Unusual)



--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:15:07 +0100
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 14:32/21 Jan 98...

> Actually, two supersubmachineguns are great for providing suppression
> fire... <grin>
>
> Am I wrong, or are the recoil modifiers not used when covering an
> area with suppressive fire?

You are not wrong. Only a few mods are applied to covering fire, mostly
involving the shooter's wounds and the target's cover (which makes sense).
A supermachinegun is useful for aimed fire (by firing short bursts) and
covering fire (by using as many rounds as possible), while miniguns are
really only useful for covering fire.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
"Do we LOOK like secret agents?!"
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 13
From: Jyster Cap <jyster007@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: 2 weapons / Off-hand
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:39:48 -0800
---Gurth <gurth@******.NL> wrote:
>
> Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr. said on 13:49/20 Jan 98...
>
> > Okay, now, generally people have one hand that they favor and for
some
> > reason can't work as well with the other. Does anyone have some
"Off-hand"
> > house rules "On-hand?" Please send me a link or two. I'm trying
to work
> > rules on this into my games.
> > Also, I would love some rules about using two weapons at once. I
know
> > size/weight must matter.

I use the Deadlands modifier. If you are using
2 weapons at once your favorite hand gets +2, your
other hand gets +6, unless you have ambidexterity
then its +2, +2. You can use laser sights or
smartlinks but in order to get the bonus for
both hands you need the link in both hands.

> > Plus, there would have to be a penalty for shooting at two different
> > targets (I think the rules for that are in BBB).
>
> There's a +2 for each additional target, because you have to shift
your
> attention in such a short time.

I agree.

> > Lastly, would having two weapons ready allow a person to fire 4 SA
shots
> > or worse yet 4 BF shots during a single combat phase?
>
> Yes. Even two 15-round bursts from a supermachinegun -- at a +30
recoil
> modifier to both guns *GM grin*

Nasty thought but true.


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