Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Janne Jalkanen <jalkanen@*********.CERN.CH>
Subject: About PhysAds and MA:s (Was: magical overview)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 10:12:58 +0200
Now this is going to go way out of the purpose of this list, so if you
don't wish to read about my views about training, skip this message... You
have been warned.

I really would like to add an ObSR here, but I currently can't think of
anything to ask...

On Wed, 29 Jun 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> Training is not the essence of a physical adept. Let me relate a
> story my master often tells:

> "Master, how long will it take me master Wu Shu?"
> "Ten years, if you train diligently and listen to what I say."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Key words here...

> "It takes ten years at least to be good in anything. If you
> spend your mind competing with your fellow students, it will take you
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Other key words...

> Way was to cut; to kill. What Mushashi was advocating was learning how
> to think and percieve truth in all things; the last thing he would have
> advocated was burdening yourself with training and the ideals it foisted
> off onto one. His "Hei-ho" was one of utter simplicity, and it's first
> tenet was to percieve the truth in all things, so that you are not
> decieved. This was considered to be more important than mere technical
> skill.

I wholeheartedly agree. Which is exactly why I made my point about
training...

Here are my opinions about training, what little I have observed along
the years...

For me training is not just physical. The key element of all survival (I
am using this word since I do not know a better english word.) is the
spirit. You must maintain proper spirit while you train. You must
maintain this spirit while you fight. But as with the physical techniques
you will not be a master in this spirit when you begin the path. Thus you
must also train your spirit as well as your physical body. I think this
is important.

It is difficult to train your physical skills somewhere else than the
dojo (or whatever you call your training hall), even if it is possible to
some extent. However, if you stop training your spirit when you walk out
of the door of your dojo, you will surely lose. You must learn how to
train outside the dojo as well. You must make the training your life, a
part of your essence. But (this is important) you must understand what
the correct spirit is, before you train it. Otherwise the wrong spirit
will grow on you and will be extremely difficult to shed away. This is
why all martial arts start with physical training, since your teacher can
easily see what is wrong and correct you. Proper spirit grows out of
diligent (I hope I understand this word correctly) physical training. The
spirit is difficult to find and maintain and also very difficult to your
teacher to teach. I would say even impossible. (This is my opinion. Please
prove me wrong :) Which is why most people will quit training, since they
are required to find this spirit on their own. You cannot and should
not teach everything.

I think competition is bad, since it will corrupt your spirit easily,
unless you are very careful. Sports are good for both mentally and
physically but to aspire for success means you are deviating from the
path. However, if you can compete with an open mind and not mistake it as
the Way, I think competition can and will teach you important matters.

> This is why I prefer martial arts to boxing; in boxing, you get
> really good until you hit your physical limits, but you never hit your
> limits in martial arts because the most important component of the art is
> in the mind.

Yes. If two people of equal strength and skill confront, the one with
the correct spirit will survive.

This is interesting. You say that the training is not the essence of a
martial artist, yet you prove yourself wrong with your example? Look at
the first and last sentences of your mail. Do you now see my point?

<The Evil>
--
Janne Jalkanen ///! For those who have to fight for it
jalkanen@******.cern.ch /// ! life has a flavor
Janne.Jalkanen@***.fi \\\/// ! the protected will never understand
-'Keep on going...' \XX/ ! (anonymous, Viet Nam, 1968)
Message no. 2
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: About PhysAds and MA:s (Was: magical overview)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 03:13:36 -0700
> easily see what is wrong and correct you. Proper spirit grows out of
> diligent (I hope I understand this word correctly) physical training. The

This is where I, and I believe, my master would disagree. He
talks about "Mental, Physical, Spiritual" -- these are all cultivated at
once, and if you lack in any one of them, you will not be a complete
martial artist. You do *not* get any one of them by working on the
others -- they must be worked on individually. It is common to think
that by exercise the body can train the mind but the reverse is equally
true, and the spirit can only be cultivated by whatever means you desire
to (meditation, religion, etc.)

> spirit is difficult to find and maintain and also very difficult to your
> teacher to teach. I would say even impossible. (This is my opinion. Please

I disagree here, because I feel my master has done so and is
doing so. My opinion though. However, I feel that reading "The Zen Way
to the Martial Arts" by Taisen Deshimaru will illustrate these points in
a much finer manner than I am able to.

> This is interesting. You say that the training is not the essence of a
> martial artist, yet you prove yourself wrong with your example? Look at
> the first and last sentences of your mail. Do you now see my point?

(Sigh.) I have not told the story very well, because that *was*
the point of the story. Or was it? All of the most interesting points
are taught in contradictions. Would it help you to know that the first
time I heard the story Sabunim just said "Ten years...twenty
years...forty years" with no explanation?
Sort of like when he tells us to turn our hips over and pull back
the knee on side kick, then says that all kicks start out as front kick.
Or when he tells us that "To catch tiger by tail you must first walk
through lion's den"...Or, I could go on, but I think the point is to
consider all things, to expand your consciousness, and to experience.
You can look at life as one big training hall (dojo, dojon...) but then
you miss out on the fun or the point of it. Or you can appreciate the
myriad wonders of existance and see larger truths within the small truths
of everyday life ... this is not training, this is living.

> -- > Janne Jalkanen ///! For those who have to fight for it

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 3
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: About PhysAds and MA:s (Was: magical overview)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 10:14:31 -0400
>>>>> "Adam" == Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
writes:

>> This is interesting. You say that the training is not the essence of a
>> martial artist, yet you prove yourself wrong with your example? Look at
>> the first and last sentences of your mail. Do you now see my point?

Adam> (Sigh.) I have not told the story very well, because that
Adam> *was* the point of the story. Or was it? All of the most
Adam> interesting points are taught in contradictions. Would it help you
Adam> to know that the first time I heard the story Sabunim just said "Ten
Adam> years...twenty years...forty years" with no explanation?

Neat; I'd like to meet him (I'm lousy with koans myself :).

Anyway, as I mentioned in my previous post on this thread, training and
practice are the /means/ to a goal, and thus assist you in achieving that
goal. When training and practice become the goal, you loose sight of
things, you don't watch where you're going, only where you've been.

That's the difference between American boxing and the traditional martial
arts. In boxing, the goal is to train to become better than your opponent.
But once you've reached that level of ability, what's the point? Boxers
still train and practice, but without any meaning to it. In the martial
arts, the goal is to achieve perfection, an impossible goal, but one that
you can always strive for. Thus the training and practice still serve their
purpose.

Here's an example you should be able to understand. After Muhammed Ali
became the world champion boxer, wht did he do? He retired. And what did
Bruce Lee do at the peak of his own Kung Fu ability? He decided it wasn't
enough for him and developed a new style, new techniques, that could expand
upon what he already knew.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "Always remember, no matter where you go,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | there you are." --Buckaroo Banzai
Message no. 4
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: About PhysAds and MA:s (Was: magical overview)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 08:33:12 -0700
RE: Training and Martial Arts

Sounds like you understand them pretty well Rat.

I liked you Muhammed Ali - Bruce Lee comparison too.

Ivy
Message no. 5
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: About PhysAds and MA:s (Was: magical overview)
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 20:46:57 -0400
>>>>> "Ivy" == Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG> writes:

RE> Training and Martial Arts
Ivy> Sounds like you understand them pretty well Rat.

More the philosophy (sometimes I wish that "searching for enlightenment"
were a valid profession in the US :) than the techniques, even though I've
never formally studied either (go figure; it probably shows).

Ivy> I liked you Muhammed Ali - Bruce Lee comparison too.

Thanks.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "I came. I saw. I did what I had to do,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | and got the hell out!" --a button

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about About PhysAds and MA:s (Was: magical overview), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!