Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: A Clonal Question
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 22:35:55 EST
You lose a limb, you can get a clonal replacement.
You get a clonal replacement- you get the magic back-
I presume you also get the "essence" for this limb
back.
Do they clone just an arm- nope. They clone a whole
body.
Does a clone have 6 points of essence then?
If so then:
Can a vampire feed off of them?
Can an insect spirit infest them?

I imagine a vampire, wealthy enough, to have certain
priviledges with a company and people who will volunteer
their DNA for use. The hell with replicant fading...

Dominoes delivers? How about Doc Wagon delivers clonal
dinners... with a free order of twisty bread! :)

Comments?

Da Minotaur
Message no. 2
From: Christina Johnson <johnson1@**.UWP.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Clonal Question
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 21:40:46 -0600
On Tue, 16 Nov 1993, steven mancini wrote:

> Comments?


Gross. Really really gross.

But feasable. Unless you start getting into the concept of souls. See,
if your essense is your essense, and you just integrate the new limb into
you... then the original clone had no soul, was never sentiant.

If however, you are 'stealing' someone elses karma and essense...

Then yeah. It's totally feasable, but really gross.


Christina M. Johnson, University of WI, Parkside, Kenosha johnson1@**.uwp.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All praise the sun god. He's a real fun god. Ra. Ra. Ra.
Message no. 3
From: Hobbes Patrol Headquarters <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re : A Clonal Question
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 21:42:28 -0500
> You lose a limb, you can get a clonal replacement.
> You get a clonal replacement- you get the magic back-
> I presume you also get the "essence" for this limb
> back.

I'm getting that sinking feeeeeling......

> Do they clone just an arm- nope. They clone a whole
> body.
> Does a clone have 6 points of essence then?
> If so then:
> Can a vampire feed off of them?
> Can an insect spirit infest them?

And is the 'body' truly alive? Did they clone a brain into it?

> Dominoes delivers? How about Doc Wagon delivers clonal
> dinners... with a free order of twisty bread! :)

2 elves, 2 toppings, 9.99nuYen...

-Tyger

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"It's not like talking with people. With people, anything can be said and
nothing matters. Words and words and words. You go to a party... people
sit around and say things. Anything. Just to talk. Put forth views and
debate them. Sometimes you get a new idea. Sometimes something changes"
-Luicifer
From "Virtual Realities"
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Message no. 4
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Clonal Question
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 23:27:12 GMT
> Do they clone just an arm- nope. They clone a whole body.

I'm not sure about this.

> Does a clone have 6 points of essence then?

I think that Essence also includes the soul; i.e., only a *person* will
suffice. For instance, critters have Essence, but Vamps seem to prefer
people. Maybe it's because the *psychic resonances* (tm) of people are
required to quench a vampire's thirst.

> If so then:
> Can a vampire feed off of them?
> Can an insect spirit infest them?

In a word, no (IMO).


J Roberson
Message no. 5
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Clonal Question
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 17:50:19 -0600
>From Da Minotaur:

> Does a clone have 6 points of essence then?
> If so then:
> Can a vampire feed off of them?

No...

In order for there to be Essence drained, the vampire must come into contact
with its victim, via its bite, at which point a psychic link is forged. The
significatn element to the drainage of Essence is not, in the case of Vampires,
the blood, which only serves as a physical medium. It is psychic sustenance
which is being sought. In order to extract this, there is a requisite
condition of intense emotions being focused at the Essence drainer. Otherwise,
one is only succeeding in drawing blood from their victim.

According to the texts, 2054 science is not yet capable of replicating a human
being such that it is sentient, self-aware, and intelligent.

If there is no sentience then it follow there shall be no emotion. If emotions
are not possible to be generated, much less guided towards the Essence drainer,
then there shall accordingly be no transfer. If there is no possibility of
transfer; vampires may not feed from them. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.


Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.

Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
"Attack, attack, and when in doubt, ATTACK!" -- Frederick the Great of Prussia
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Re : A Clonal Question
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:19:37 +0930
[Deleted stuff ]
>> Do they clone just an arm- nope. They clone a whole
>> body.
[ Deleted stuff ]
>And is the 'body' truly alive? Did they clone a brain into it?
>
That's the wrong question, I think. The right question would be: How do they
prevent the brain developing??

We don't know enough about how sentience develops to really answer. Does the
vat they grow in sufficently mimic the natural condition to allow
self-awareness to develop?? Or does a vegetable result??

The way I ruled on it is that they add something to the vat mix to cause
irreparable damage to the higher brain area. So it will breathe, be able to
walk enough to prevent severe muscular dystrophy (or something is added to
prevent it), but it's intelligence is on the level of an ameoba.


--
Robert Watkins bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
Geek Code: GCS d-(?) p---@ c++++ !l u+ e+(e-)(e*) m+(m-) s-/* n-(n---) h++(h*)
f g+ w+ t++ r+(r--) y+
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 7
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re : A Clonal Question
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 22:08:18 -0600
On Thu, 18 Nov 1993, Robert Watkins wrote:

> That's the wrong question, I think. The right question would be: How do they
> prevent the brain developing??
>
> We don't know enough about how sentience develops to really answer. Does the
> vat they grow in sufficently mimic the natural condition to allow
> self-awareness to develop?? Or does a vegetable result??
>
> The way I ruled on it is that they add something to the vat mix to cause
> irreparable damage to the higher brain area. So it will breathe, be able to
> walk enough to prevent severe muscular dystrophy (or something is added to
> prevent it), but it's intelligence is on the level of an ameoba.

Ok, this is IMHO, so you can ignore me all you want.

I feel a clone is prefectly capable of developing sentience and leading a
healthy normal life. THe problem is that it doesn't have a lifetime of
expierience to get through everyday things like talking to someone or
knowing how to use the telephone, or even know that you pull your pants
off before you take a dump.

So, unless every nuance (sp?) of life could be programmed, the clone is
funtionally a child with an adult body. The brain is just as capable of
learning as anything.

Of course, good clone banks keep their clones in a coma until the part
they need is ripe for harvesting, yank it out, kill the clone, and then
feed it to the hounds . . . or put it as an additive into your soyburgers
at the stuffer shack.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 8
From: Hobbes Patrol Headquarters <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re : A Clonal Question
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 22:06:31 -0500
>>> Do they clone just an arm- nope. They clone a whole
>>> body.
>[ Deleted stuff ]
>>And is the 'body' truly alive? Did they clone a brain into it?
>>
>That's the wrong question, I think. The right question would be: How do they
>prevent the brain developing??

Actually, come to think of it, it could be "How do they get a brain to form
'properly'?"

>The way I ruled on it is that they add something to the vat mix to cause
>irreparable damage to the higher brain area. So it will breathe, be able to
>walk enough to prevent severe muscular dystrophy (or something is added to
>prevent it), but it's intelligence is on the level of an ameoba.

Again, back to my idea of the 'zombie', a cloned body that is controled
'remote' by an AI (or other thing.) Great for 'shock troops', 'bomb
disposal', or 'high-threat response'.

The problem, I guess, is making the things cheap...

-Tyger

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"It's not like talking with people. With people, anything can be said and
nothing matters. Words and words and words. You go to a party... people
sit around and say things. Anything. Just to talk. Put forth views and
debate them. Sometimes you get a new idea. Sometimes something changes"
-Luicifer
From "Virtual Realities"
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Message no. 9
From: Hobbes Patrol Headquarters <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re : A Clonal Question
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 22:36:04 -0500
>Ok, this is IMHO, so you can ignore me all you want.

>So, unless every nuance (sp?) of life could be programmed, the clone is
>funtionally a child with an adult body. The brain is just as capable of
>learning as anything.

They're working on doing this with an Artificial Intelligence (somewhere),
but the problem was that the computer was asking questions that they
thought were obvious. So they had to program in 'common sense'. The stuff
that comes to mind:

"When Abraham Lincoln was in Washington DC, his left foot was also there."

"When Abraham Lincoln died, he stayed dead. But his words and ideas remained."

And so on. Little stuff nobody thinks of.

>Of course, good clone banks keep their clones in a coma until the part
>they need is ripe for harvesting, yank it out, kill the clone, and then
>feed it to the hounds . . . or put it as an additive into your soyburgers
>at the stuffer shack.

Hey, instant adventure! Biowear : Cerebral boost. If that's gotta be
grown, then there's a clone with thought, tangable ideas. What if the
recipient (your poor runner) hears these 'voices' in his head, then the
other persona tries to take over?

-Tyger

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"It's not like talking with people. With people, anything can be said and
nothing matters. Words and words and words. You go to a party... people
sit around and say things. Anything. Just to talk. Put forth views and
debate them. Sometimes you get a new idea. Sometimes something changes"
-Luicifer
From "Virtual Realities"
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Message no. 10
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Clonal Question
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 22:51:35 -0600
>>Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
CANDIDE!!!!
*Suddenly, the young dupe broke into song, re-creating his singing for
a grade mere weeks ago. . .

Twas Snake who tempted mother Eve
Because of snake we now believe
that though depraved, we can be saved
from Hellfire and Damnation
Because of Snake's temptation

If Snake had not seduced our lot and primed us for Salvation
Jehovah would not pardon all the sins which we call cardinal
Involving bed and bottle
Now onto Aristotle

Though War may seem a bloody curse
It is a blessing in reverse
When cannon roar, both rich and poor
By danger are united
Till every wrong is righted

Philosophers make evident the point that I have cited
Tis war makes equal, as it were, the noble and the commoner
Thus war improves relations
Now on to conjugations

J Roberson
May you have a happy S/N ratio. Better yet, a happy S/M ratio

:)
Message no. 11
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re : A Clonal Question
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 23:08:53 -0600
On Wed, 17 Nov 1993, Hobbes Patrol Headquarters wrote:

> Hey, instant adventure! Biowear : Cerebral boost. If that's gotta be
> grown, then there's a clone with thought, tangable ideas. What if the
> recipient (your poor runner) hears these 'voices' in his head, then the
> other persona tries to take over?

Bzzzzz

I don't think a cerebral boost works quite that way.

STech: page 23
Boosting the brain via a cerebral booster involves the introduction of
additional nervous tissue, along iwth convolutions and gyri (ridges and
furrows), into the frontal lobes ot the cerebrum. The extracells and
increased surface areas improve efficiency of cognative and other
higher-level functions because the brain areas augmented are those
responsible for these functions. Etc.....

Cloning for a CB is simply growing some more brain to crazy glue on to
the front of yours so you can think better. I can't imagine it would
have voices and the personality of the clone.

Blech

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 12
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re : A Clonal Question
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 00:34:35 -0600
>>Bzzzzz

Waitaminute, the judges are conferring. . .

>>I don't think a cerebral boost works quite that way.

How about this: They grow a clone and just scoop the brain material out
of the brain case and stuff it in the client.

No personality trix (since clones don't have 'em) or distinct self-conscious
memories ("oh yeah, I remember that roll in the soy with Mary Lou"), but
how about just images: "I don't know, Bob, I keep dreaming about being in
this giant glass tube, looking out at these doctors in lab coats. And I'm
breathing WATER, man!!"

J Roberson
Message no. 13
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re : A Clonal Question
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 00:41:08 -0600
On Thu, 18 Nov 1993, The Deb Decker wrote:

> How about this: They grow a clone and just scoop the brain material out
> of the brain case and stuff it in the client.

Hmm, I was wrong, someone can be more tacky than me :-)

> No personality trix (since clones don't have 'em) or distinct self-conscious
> memories ("oh yeah, I remember that roll in the soy with Mary Lou"), but
> how about just images: "I don't know, Bob, I keep dreaming about being in
> this giant glass tube, looking out at these doctors in lab coats. And I'm
> breathing WATER, man!!"

Heh. Face it, we ALL need help . . . lot's of help.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 14
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re : A Clonal Question
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:01:52 -0800
>>Ok, this is IMHO, so you can ignore me all you want.

We usually do :)

>>I feel a clone is prefectly capable of developing sentience and leading a
>>healthy normal life. THe problem is that it doesn't have a lifetime of
>>expierience to get through everyday things like talking to someone or
>>knowing how to use the telephone, or even know that you pull your pants
>>off before you take a dump.

Possible, but SR takes a different tack. I can also figure out a reason why
clones in SR don't develop sentience.

In SR, there is more to a person then a bunch of chemicals thrown together in
the correct pattern. There is a "life energy" which is outside of the realm
of science. The problem with a clone is that the zygote is placed in an
artificial womb and forced to grow at a much faster than normal rate.

This means that the developing fetus is deprived of several things that we take
for granted. Time to develop mentally is drastically reduced. Human contact
with both the mother and the world outside the womb releyed to the fetus as
sound through the ambeotic fluid. Only god knows how a lack of this would
affect the mind of the fetus.
Message no. 15
From: The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Re : A Clonal Question
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 15:52:20 GMT
> In SR, there is more to a person then a bunch of chemicals thrown together in
> the correct pattern. There is a "life energy" which is outside of the
realm
> of science. The problem with a clone is that the zygote is placed in an
> artificial womb and forced to grow at a much faster than normal rate.

> This means that the developing fetus is deprived of several things that we
take
> for granted. Time to develop mentally is drastically reduced. Human contact
> with both the mother and the world outside the womb releyed to the fetus as
> sound through the ambeotic fluid. Only god knows how a lack of this would
> affect the mind of the fetus.

All this may be true but it won't stop the corps from trying.

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | An Uzi a day keeps the
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | politicians at bay O O
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England | |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse \_/

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about A Clonal Question, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!