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Message no. 1
From: Roger Ramirez chariot@*********.net
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:43:23 -0400
>Number 2: Damn I forgot my second question. Oh well when I remember I'll
>write back... damn BTL chips.

Ok I remember question number 2 now.

How does Lonestar detain magically active prisoners? You can use that
bacteria as described in Corporate Security Handbook for the walls (as long
as Magic in the Shadows doesn't change that now that mages can go through
living objects) to keep them from projecting. How about casing magic?
Would you say blind folding might be enough because if the mage can not see
with his natural vision he really can't cast anything on anyone. Then tie
him down so he can't actually take off the mask or touch anyone. Would this
be it or is there any thing else you could do? Perhaps someone could think
of a way out of this. How about foci? If something is bonded to them can
they still use it if it's not in their possesion? Will it still be an
astral link?

Well I suppose that's more than 1 more question. Oh well.

-Chariot
Message no. 2
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:08:48 -0500
Roger Ramirez wrote:
>
> >Number 2: Damn I forgot my second question. Oh well when I remember I'll
> >write back... damn BTL chips.
>
> Ok I remember question number 2 now.
>
> How does Lonestar detain magically active prisoners? You can use that
> bacteria as described in Corporate Security Handbook for the walls (as long
> as Magic in the Shadows doesn't change that now that mages can go through
> living objects) to keep them from projecting. How about casing magic?
> Would you say blind folding might be enough because if the mage can not see
> with his natural vision he really can't cast anything on anyone. Then tie
> him down so he can't actually take off the mask or touch anyone. Would this
> be it or is there any thing else you could do? Perhaps someone could think
> of a way out of this. How about foci? If something is bonded to them can
> they still use it if it's not in their possesion? Will it still be an
> astral link?

Actually, the Lonestar Sourcebook describes a handly little restrainig
device called a magemask which blinds and gags a mage as well as
producing white noise (static) up to 90 dBs to distract the mage.

--
"My fellow Americans,
I'm pleased to tell you today, that I've signed legislation that
will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes"
-Ronald Reagan

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
The ShadowZone is down for Revision
Please email me with Zone Notification as subject to be
notified when it reopens.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
Message no. 3
From: Scott Peterson lrdmtlyn@**********.com
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:15:05 -0700
>
> How does Lonestar detain magically active prisoners?

Most of this was handled in the Lone Star Sourcebook, and if you don't
have that the equipment to do this sort of thing is also in the 3rd ed
book.

Scott
Message no. 4
From: Alex van der Kleut sommers@*****.edu
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:17:35 -0500
At 10:43 PM 3/21/99 , Roger Ramirez wrote:
>>Number 2: Damn I forgot my second question. Oh well when I remember I'll
>>write back... damn BTL chips.
>
>Ok I remember question number 2 now.
>
>How does Lonestar detain magically active prisoners? You can use that
>bacteria as described in Corporate Security Handbook for the walls (as long
>as Magic in the Shadows doesn't change that now that mages can go through
>living objects) to keep them from projecting. How about casing magic?
>Would you say blind folding might be enough because if the mage can not see
>with his natural vision he really can't cast anything on anyone. Then tie
>him down so he can't actually take off the mask or touch anyone. Would this
>be it or is there any thing else you could do? Perhaps someone could think
>of a way out of this. How about foci? If something is bonded to them can
>they still use it if it's not in their possesion? Will it still be an
>astral link?

All of these things are mentioned in the Lone Star Sourcebook. Since its
hard to get, I'll assume that you don't have it.

Normal procedure for detaining Awawkened suspects are designed to prevent
the prisoner from making any kind of magical actions. A straight jacket is
used to prevent him from using his arms, a specially fitted mouthpiece
allows him to breathe but not talk, and a blindfold is used to prevent him
from seeing any targets.

If the prisoner is being particularly ornery, or there is a chance that he
might try to astrally project, a special mask is used which basically
screams in his ears continuously that prevents him from concentrating on
any magical activity whatsoever.

Of course a lot of these procedures could be classified as cruel and
unusual punishment, but they are on corporate property.

Basically don't get caught.

Alex
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Slovotsky's Laws #
71. There is always one more bug.
Message no. 5
From: Ryan W. Bolduan emeottrw@***.umn.edu
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:19:39 -0600 (CST)
> Actually, the Lonestar Sourcebook describes a handly little restrainig
> device called a magemask which blinds and gags a mage as well as
> producing white noise (static) up to 90 dBs to distract the mage.

This is nice in theory, but I've always had a problem with the magemask.
Sure I can put it on some prisoner to transport him from point a to point
b, but you get some serious problems for a mage that is committed to life
imprisonment. In modern terms you would have the ACLU (for you foreign
list members, they help protest and bring to attention in courts any
unconstitutional cases here in the US), or some other similar organization
down their backs for keeping somebody in one of those things for 80 years.
Now, I know that extraterritoriality (spelling?) negates this issue, but
what about those crimes on honest to goodness UCAS soil that wind up in
federal prison. The consititution and it's "Cruel and Unusual Punishment"
ammendment still exist (I assume)?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Bolduan emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
http://cda.mrs.umn.edu/~emeottrw

A person concerned with such important matters as I, need not, and should
not, attend to spelling.
--Napolean
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:32:24 -0500
At 12:19 PM 3/22/99 , Ryan W. Bolduan wrote:
>> Actually, the Lonestar Sourcebook describes a handly little restrainig
>> device called a magemask which blinds and gags a mage as well as
>> producing white noise (static) up to 90 dBs to distract the mage.
>
>This is nice in theory, but I've always had a problem with the magemask.
>Sure I can put it on some prisoner to transport him from point a to point
>b, but you get some serious problems for a mage that is committed to life
>imprisonment. In modern terms you would have the ACLU (for you foreign
>list members, they help protest and bring to attention in courts any
>unconstitutional cases here in the US), or some other similar organization
>down their backs for keeping somebody in one of those things for 80 years.
>Now, I know that extraterritoriality (spelling?) negates this issue, but
>what about those crimes on honest to goodness UCAS soil that wind up in
>federal prison. The consititution and it's "Cruel and Unusual Punishment"
>ammendment still exist (I assume)?

For long term confinement they put the white noise generator in the room
itself so he doesn't have to wear it. And in the Lone Star book they bring
up a lot of those very questions about cruel and unusual punishment. There
is also some shadow talk about just hooking them up to SimSense 24/7 and
letting them serve their time that way.

Rememeber, Lone Star is the cops, but its also a corp. And soemtimes they
don;t always think about those legal niceties. Sounds like it would make
for some very interesting situations.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 7
From: Scott Peterson lrdmtlyn@**********.com
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:44:06 -0700
> This is nice in theory, but I've always had a problem with the magemask.
> Sure I can put it on some prisoner to transport him from point a to point
> b, but you get some serious problems for a mage that is committed to life
> imprisonment.

Would tend to think that in that case they would be held in a cell that
had fat bacterial and or other magical means to contain them. And
here's a thought (going back to your constitutional ammendment idea) did
you know that if you are considered and labeled as a terrorist by the
federal government you loose all your Constitutional Rights? Think
about that one.

Scott
Message no. 8
From: Brett Borger bxb121@***.edu
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:15:38 -0500 (EST)
> >How does Lonestar detain magically active prisoners? You can use that
> >bacteria as described in Corporate Security Handbook for the walls (as long

> All of these things are mentioned in the Lone Star Sourcebook. Since its
> hard to get, I'll assume that you don't have it.
>
> Normal procedure for detaining Awawkened suspects are designed to prevent
> the prisoner from making any kind of magical actions. A straight jacket is
> used to prevent him from using his arms, a specially fitted mouthpiece
> allows him to breathe but not talk, and a blindfold is used to prevent him
> from seeing any targets.

> Of course a lot of these procedures could be classified as cruel and
> unusual punishment, but they are on corporate property.

I too have had problems with the magemask et al. Sure, you can claim
that a prisoner on corp turf is going to get whatever it takes, but it
isn't that simple. Corps have a reputation to uphold, and public
opinion is powerful, particularly in economics. Sure, a corp can get
away with some slack when dealing with the Awakened, but it isn't
going to be a blank check if you aren't dealing with violent
criminals. That midlevel mage wage imprisoned for tax evasion, that
upstanding citizen with an uncanny knack for the Influence spell and
the effect it can have on attractive women in bars, and the teenage
kid who uses astral projection to get into the girls locker rooms, all
of them are criminals, and will be detained for a while, probably too
long for a magemask, and too long for nothing.

Therefore, I've comeup with three solutions in my world.

The first IS in Lonestar. For long term, link them up to a simrig and
have them virtually incarcerated.

The second is based off of the magemask. If a simrig can prevent
someone from casting magic while in the system, it must short circuit
their casting somehow. So I figure it's possible to rig up a portable
one that keeps them in the real world, but short circuits the casting,
etc.

The third is that there are probably drugs that leave one
sufficeintly doped up to prevent casting, etc. Think One flew over
the Cuckoos nest.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 9
From: Ryan W. Bolduan emeottrw@***.umn.edu
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:39:31 -0600 (CST)
> For long term confinement they put the white noise generator in the room
> itself so he doesn't have to wear it. And in the Lone Star book they bring
> up a lot of those very questions about cruel and unusual punishment. There
> is also some shadow talk about just hooking them up to SimSense 24/7 and
> letting them serve their time that way.
>
> Rememeber, Lone Star is the cops, but its also a corp. And soemtimes they
> don;t always think about those legal niceties. Sounds like it would make
> for some very interesting situations.
>
> Sommers
> Insert witty quote here.
>

I have the Lone Star book, but this still doesn't answer all the
questions. Lone Star is obviously the police force and is a corp, but I
would guess that if a crime is comitted on either soil that is non-AAA
corp soil (remember, non-international corps do not have
extrateritoriality, just re-confirmed this one in the Double Exposure
Module) or soil of some corp that actually cares about public relations
(unlikely), you still have to deal with whatever the 21st century of the
ACLU is.

The magemask is a good idea, and for short stays, or for stays in a corp
prison or in a fed. prison for Terrorism (thank you for whoever brought
that up, I didn't know it), it will work. But for stays in prison for an
actual federal crime, you can't claim "it's a corp, they can do whatever
they want." As for the other solution of permenant simsense, what do you
do? Tape the rig to the mages head and feed them with an IV tube? Sounds
like another "cruel and unusual situation to me." You're not going to be
able to install a datajack (again violating rights of a mage), and leaving
somebody to waste away like that isn't a vaild option either.

I would immagine that the cells are produced with mages in mind. A cell
with Fat bacteria in the walls to prevent projection and spells would
work. Equip the cells with high DB emitters in case of emergency, and
equip every mage with a locked something that would allow an astral mage
to ground a spell through it. Other than those physical changes you're
going to run into constitutional problems.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Bolduan emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
http://cda.mrs.umn.edu/~emeottrw

A person concerned with such important matters as I, need not, and should
not, attend to spelling.
--Napolean
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:53:53 -0500
"Ryan W. Bolduan" wrote:

> The magemask is a good idea, and for short stays, or for stays in a corp
> prison or in a fed. prison for Terrorism (thank you for whoever brought
> that up, I didn't know it), it will work. But for stays in prison for an
> actual federal crime, you can't claim "it's a corp, they can do whatever
> they want." As for the other solution of permenant simsense, what do you
> do? Tape the rig to the mages head and feed them with an IV tube? Sounds
> like another "cruel and unusual situation to me."

Actually, it may be less cruel than keeping them locked up in a cage
with other "hardened" criminals.

> I would immagine that the cells are produced with mages in mind. A cell
> with Fat bacteria in the walls to prevent projection and spells would
> work. Equip the cells with high DB emitters in case of emergency, and
> equip every mage with a locked something that would allow an astral mage
> to ground a spell through it. Other than those physical changes you're
> going to run into constitutional problems.

Maybe there are whole prisons designed with mages in mind.
Underground would be the primary means of astral confinement, the
earth is still impassable by astral beings, right? then it would be a
simple move to ward all possible exits, doors or air vents. When a
prisoner is processed into such a prison, a DNA sample is taken
providing ritual material for an added threat. And the staff could
include a larger number of mages. These mages could call up watchers
and elementals to act as extra security.

--
"My fellow Americans,
I'm pleased to tell you today, that I've signed legislation that
will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes"
-Ronald Reagan

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
The ShadowZone is down for Revision
Please email me with Zone Notification as subject to be
notified when it reopens.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
Message no. 11
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:34:30 -0500
At 01:39 PM 3/22/99 , Ryan W. Bolduan wrote:
>I have the Lone Star book, but this still doesn't answer all the
>questions. Lone Star is obviously the police force and is a corp, but I
>would guess that if a crime is comitted on either soil that is non-AAA
>corp soil (remember, non-international corps do not have
>extrateritoriality, just re-confirmed this one in the Double Exposure
>Module) or soil of some corp that actually cares about public relations
>(unlikely), you still have to deal with whatever the 21st century of the
>ACLU is.

AAA corps are not the only ones with extra-territoriality. Some of the AA
corps, like Trans Neuronet (sp?) out of England and some of the Tir corps
are ET. So is Boeing I believe. The criteria isn't how many countries they
are in, but a somewhat complex formula including, but not limited to, how
big they are, how many pies do they have their hands in, etc. IIRC Lonestar
Sourcebook says that it is either ET or getting pretty close to it.

Assuming they are, it doesn't really matter as much where the crime is
committed as to who has jurisdiction over the prisoner. Lone Star normally
doesn't incarcerate long term anyway, the government still does. But LS was
(in 2054) starting to get more contracts for running the prisons too. And
if they are ET, then the prison becomes ET, which means that tehir
constitution, not the UCAS (or CAS or whatever) is in effect.

>The magemask is a good idea, and for short stays, or for stays in a corp
>prison or in a fed. prison for Terrorism (thank you for whoever brought
>that up, I didn't know it), it will work. But for stays in prison for an
>actual federal crime, you can't claim "it's a corp, they can do whatever
>they want." As for the other solution of permenant simsense, what do you
>do? Tape the rig to the mages head and feed them with an IV tube? Sounds
>like another "cruel and unusual situation to me." You're not going to be
>able to install a datajack (again violating rights of a mage), and leaving
>somebody to waste away like that isn't a vaild option either.

If you are convicted of some kind of terrorist crime in the US, you do not
lose your constitutional rights. Some rights ARE curtailed for being a
convicted felon, such as voting rights, right to carry a gun, home location
for those on probation, etc. But AFAIK there are no "terrorist laws" that
put you into a special group. Unless you get the death penalty, and then
you don't worry about what happens after you're out.

One of the tactics mention in LS was to hook up an IV and a simsense rig
(not datajack) and let them veg for years. Or even worse, make them THINK
that they had served years when it was only months. Shadowtalk says that
this is impossible, and also that it was already being done.

>I would immagine that the cells are produced with mages in mind. A cell
>with Fat bacteria in the walls to prevent projection and spells would
>work. Equip the cells with high DB emitters in case of emergency, and
>equip every mage with a locked something that would allow an astral mage
>to ground a spell through it. Other than those physical changes you're
>going to run into constitutional problems.

I don't know that you have to go through all of that trouble. First, in SR3
wards are a lot cheaper to set up. You put one around each cell , just
inside the walls of the cell. If they try any agic, or try to project, they
have to go through the ward. You task one Watcher every three hours to
alert the guards when any ward is disturbed. This is fairly easy and
shouldn't disturb the guards too much. For the most part, this should keep
them under watch as long as you don't let them out.

When they first arrive, take that good old ritual sample and let them know.
If there are any disturbances in the ward, poof, something bad comes down
that ritual link. That will keep just about any mage in line.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 12
From: Ryan W. Bolduan emeottrw@***.umn.edu
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:58:59 -0600 (CST)
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Sommers wrote:

> AAA corps are not the only ones with extra-territoriality. Some of the AA
> corps, like Trans Neuronet (sp?) out of England and some of the Tir corps
> are ET. So is Boeing I believe. The criteria isn't how many countries they
> are in, but a somewhat complex formula including, but not limited to, how
> big they are, how many pies do they have their hands in, etc. IIRC Lonestar
> Sourcebook says that it is either ET or getting pretty close to it.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. It should have read, AAA corps and
those with international status. That's what I read just three days ago.
I'm sure there are plenty of both, but there are still others that don't
fall into the above categories. I'd have to pull out LS to see whether
they're ET or not too.

>
> Assuming they are, it doesn't really matter as much where the crime is
> committed as to who has jurisdiction over the prisoner. Lone Star normally
> doesn't incarcerate long term anyway, the government still does. But LS was
> (in 2054) starting to get more contracts for running the prisons too. And
> if they are ET, then the prison becomes ET, which means that tehir
> constitution, not the UCAS (or CAS or whatever) is in effect.
>

This is one place I have to disagree again on some points. First of all,
in all those federal prisons that do not fall under corp control (of which
there are some) do have to follow the constitution, and therefore are
answerable for whatever they do to criminals. As for those that are corp
run (LS or otherwise), if they are not ET it again means that the
constitution applies, and therefore answerable to federal laws. If they
are one of the corps that claim ET statsus, you're right, in the most
simple terms they can do whatever the hell the want.

On the other hand, (and this just may be my opinion), it never is really
that simple is it?? The last thing I heard is that the country is still
structured the same as now. I'm going to assume for now (and later I'll
take the other side) that the people belive that the punishment is cruel
and unusual. The politicians (elected by the public) have to take that
into consideration, and contrary to popular belief, they really do. If
they don't set up some kind of agreement with the corp preventing cruel
and unusual punishment, they have an angry population, and are elected out
of office until somebody does prevent it. I would assume that if the
population belives a punishment is cruel and unusual, some kind of
provision would have to be made in the contract with the penal provider
(I've always wanted to write that).

On the other hand, if the people are currently for cruel and unusual
punishment then perhaps it would be the other way around. They would push
to have the ET corp do whatever they wanted. Of course this again assumes
the corp has ET standing. Another example is the military, I'd assume
they could do whatever they wanted as well.

> If you are convicted of some kind of terrorist crime in the US, you do not
> lose your constitutional rights. Some rights ARE curtailed for being a
> convicted felon, such as voting rights, right to carry a gun, home location
> for those on probation, etc. But AFAIK there are no "terrorist laws" that
> put you into a special group. Unless you get the death penalty, and then
> you don't worry about what happens after you're out.

That's what I always thought, but according to a post by somebody else on
the list (forget who) this is not the case. I've forgotten, what
countries/states still have the death penalty? Just because of the nature
of the areas, I'd assume the CAS still carries the death penalty.

> One of the tactics mention in LS was to hook up an IV and a simsense rig
> (not datajack) and let them veg for years. Or even worse, make them THINK
> that they had served years when it was only months. Shadowtalk says that
> this is impossible, and also that it was already being done.

I remember that...but ugh, (see previous argument about cruel and
unusual), if that isn't cruel and unusual, I don't know what is. It all
comes down to the provider itself and whether it's ET or not.

> I don't know that you have to go through all of that trouble. First, in SR3
> wards are a lot cheaper to set up. You put one around each cell , just
> inside the walls of the cell. If they try any agic, or try to project, they
> have to go through the ward. You task one Watcher every three hours to
> alert the guards when any ward is disturbed. This is fairly easy and
> shouldn't disturb the guards too much. For the most part, this should keep
> them under watch as long as you don't let them out.
>
> When they first arrive, take that good old ritual sample and let them know.
> If there are any disturbances in the ward, poof, something bad comes down
> that ritual link. That will keep just about any mage in line.

I forgot about the ritual link, but hiring a bunch of mages to act as
guards can get very expensive very quickly, and if I remember correctly,
there is no real profit in running a prison (other than for the
invoulntary test subjects). On the other hand, FAT bacteria isn't cheap
either. I agree with the previous poster that suggested the entire thing
be sealed underground. What if the entire prison were constructed out of
a cave system? It would have a high barrier rating to prevent digging,
etc. and would provide natural barriers for magic spells, thus less cost
in maintaining security methods. I still think giving each mage a lock or
link to the astral plane to allow astrally projecting mages to ground
spells through them would be a good idea (screw SR3, I still like the
original grounding rules).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Bolduan emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
http://cda.mrs.umn.edu/~emeottrw

A person concerned with such important matters as I, need not, and should
not, attend to spelling.
--Napolean
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
i
Message no. 13
From: Gideon, Pawn of Chaos gha5538@****.tamu.edu
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:22:01 -0600
At 12:53 -0600 on 03/22/99, Iridios wrote:
> "Ryan W. Bolduan" wrote:
>
> > I would immagine that the cells are produced with mages in mind. A cell
> > with Fat bacteria in the walls to prevent projection and spells would
> > work. Equip the cells with high DB emitters in case of emergency, and
> > equip every mage with a locked something that would allow an astral mage
> > to ground a spell through it. Other than those physical changes you're
> > going to run into constitutional problems.
>
> Maybe there are whole prisons designed with mages in mind.
> Underground would be the primary means of astral confinement, the
> earth is still impassable by astral beings, right? then it would be a
> simple move to ward all possible exits, doors or air vents. When a
> prisoner is processed into such a prison, a DNA sample is taken
> providing ritual material for an added threat. And the staff could
> include a larger number of mages. These mages could call up watchers
> and elementals to act as extra security.

There's an idea for the lunar or trans-manasphere orbital prison the list
was discussing earlier - a very secure lockup for mages without having to
resort to "cruel and unusual" methods. If I understand right, the awakened
cannot astrally project or use any magic outside the manasphere. This
makes the use of wards unneccesary. Additionally, you can rig the place to
vent the internal atmosphere to space in case of an uprising or as an
additional handle on the population.

the rides up and down may be a bit expensive, but if you use the prisoners
as non-compensated labor in orbital refineries, the program may be more
cost effective.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Clothes make the man, naked people have little or no influence
on society"
- Mark Twain
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
George H. Ayers | EMAIL: GHAYERS@****.EDU
Mechanical Engineering | PHONE: (409)845-9598
Texas A&M University | WWW: http://acs.tamu.edu/~gha5538/
College Station, TX 77843-3123 | Scholar, Scientist, Coffee Achiever
Message no. 14
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:59:06 -0500
At 02:58 PM 3/22/99 , Ryan W. Bolduan wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Sommers wrote:
>I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. It should have read, AAA corps and
>those with international status. That's what I read just three days ago.
>I'm sure there are plenty of both, but there are still others that don't
>fall into the above categories. I'd have to pull out LS to see whether
>they're ET or not too.

Fair enough. Its a bit gray as to exactly who gets ET and who doesn't. Have
to check BitB and Corporate Download when I get home tonight.

>> Assuming they are, it doesn't really matter as much where the crime is
>> committed as to who has jurisdiction over the prisoner. Lone Star normally
>> doesn't incarcerate long term anyway, the government still does. But LS was
>> (in 2054) starting to get more contracts for running the prisons too. And
>> if they are ET, then the prison becomes ET, which means that tehir
>> constitution, not the UCAS (or CAS or whatever) is in effect.
>
>This is one place I have to disagree again on some points. First of all,
>in all those federal prisons that do not fall under corp control (of which
>there are some) do have to follow the constitution, and therefore are
>answerable for whatever they do to criminals. As for those that are corp
>run (LS or otherwise), if they are not ET it again means that the
>constitution applies, and therefore answerable to federal laws. If they
>are one of the corps that claim ET statsus, you're right, in the most
>simple terms they can do whatever the hell the want.

Sorry, I was trying to address more the case of an ET company running a
prison. In cases where there is no ET, or the government runs the place, it
definitley falls under that particular caountry' laws. So yeas, I very much
agree with you on this point.

>On the other hand, (and this just may be my opinion), it never is really
>that simple is it?? The last thing I heard is that the country is still
>structured the same as now. I'm going to assume for now (and later I'll
>take the other side) that the people belive that the punishment is cruel
>and unusual. The politicians (elected by the public) have to take that
>into consideration, and contrary to popular belief, they really do. If
>they don't set up some kind of agreement with the corp preventing cruel
>and unusual punishment, they have an angry population, and are elected out
>of office until somebody does prevent it. I would assume that if the
>population belives a punishment is cruel and unusual, some kind of
>provision would have to be made in the contract with the penal provider
>(I've always wanted to write that).

It is structured approximately the same way, so a lot of the same rules
apply. And Cruel and Unusual is still a big Constitutional No No. The
question becomes what is considered cruel and unusual. 300 years ago public
flogging and the stocks was okay, 200 years ago tar and feathering was good
to go, 100 years ago public hanging was the rage, 75 years ago the death
penalty was fine, 30 years ago it was bad, and now people want it again.

If you're Joe Schmoe and you see some guy fry 20 people with a careless
fireball to a parking lot, generally you're not going to feel bad that he's
hooked up to simsense for a few years. So he doesn't get much exercise, too
bad for him. He can always work out when he gets out. Or better yet, make
himself better magically when he gets out. In the gov/corp/whoever puts the
right spin on it, the public will put up with a lot.

>On the other hand, if the people are currently for cruel and unusual
>punishment then perhaps it would be the other way around. They would push
>to have the ET corp do whatever they wanted. Of course this again assumes
>the corp has ET standing. Another example is the military, I'd assume
>they could do whatever they wanted as well.

The military has very strict guidlines as to what they can do. Although
they seem to be bigger on the "hard time" concept than the civvies.

>> If you are convicted of some kind of terrorist crime in the US, you do not
>> lose your constitutional rights. Some rights ARE curtailed for being a
>> convicted felon, such as voting rights, right to carry a gun, home location
>> for those on probation, etc. But AFAIK there are no "terrorist laws"
that
>> put you into a special group. Unless you get the death penalty, and then
>> you don't worry about what happens after you're out.
>
>That's what I always thought, but according to a post by somebody else on
>the list (forget who) this is not the case. I've forgotten, what
>countries/states still have the death penalty? Just because of the nature
>of the areas, I'd assume the CAS still carries the death penalty.

Currently, the US and about 35 states have the death penalty. I would think
that the UCAS, CAS, Tir and a lot of the NAN have it too. If you check out
NAGNA, the NAN volumes, Tir, etc the laws section should have penalties in
there somewhere.

>> One of the tactics mention in LS was to hook up an IV and a simsense rig
>> (not datajack) and let them veg for years. Or even worse, make them THINK
>> that they had served years when it was only months. Shadowtalk says that
>> this is impossible, and also that it was already being done.
>
>I remember that...but ugh, (see previous argument about cruel and
>unusual), if that isn't cruel and unusual, I don't know what is. It all
>comes down to the provider itself and whether it's ET or not.

Again, I think that it would be C and U, but I could see how the public
wouldn't be too hard to convince otherwise.

>I forgot about the ritual link, but hiring a bunch of mages to act as
>guards can get very expensive very quickly, and if I remember correctly,
>there is no real profit in running a prison (other than for the
>invoulntary test subjects). On the other hand, FAT bacteria isn't cheap
>either. I agree with the previous poster that suggested the entire thing
>be sealed underground. What if the entire prison were constructed out of
>a cave system? It would have a high barrier rating to prevent digging,
>etc. and would provide natural barriers for magic spells, thus less cost
>in maintaining security methods. I still think giving each mage a lock or
>link to the astral plane to allow astrally projecting mages to ground
>spells through them would be a good idea (screw SR3, I still like the
>original grounding rules).

If the prison population follows the percentages of the normal population,
in a prison of one thousand, there will be 10 Awakened prisoners in there.
You only need to have 2 or 3 guards on duty at a time, maybe 6 total for
all 3 shifts. The wards can last for weeks and are very cheap. Watchers are
easy to conjure up. You have regular guards doing the walk arounds, and the
mages sit as backup ready to do ritual if they do anything bad.

Also, don't forget mundane things like neurostun delivery in the cells and
halls, and guards with hyper. Hard to cast spells if you can feel every
molecule of oxygen in the air at once. :)

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:39:39 +0100
According to Brett Borger, at 13:15 on 22 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> The second is based off of the magemask. If a simrig can prevent
> someone from casting magic while in the system, it must short circuit
> their casting somehow. So I figure it's possible to rig up a portable
> one that keeps them in the real world, but short circuits the casting,
> etc.

That would make sense. All it'd need is some research into what kind of
simsense signals are needed to prevent the use of magic while allowing
normal activities to be performed.

> The third is that there are probably drugs that leave one
> sufficeintly doped up to prevent casting, etc. Think One flew over
> the Cuckoos nest.

I'd rather not be a magician and get arrested in that case...

For holding a magician for a short while, like just after they've been
arrested but not processed yet, LS could stick them in a cell and have an
astral magician keep an eye on things. This would be impractical when
holding a large number of magicians all at once, but OTOH there won't be
man occasions with mass arrests of the magically active, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What in the wide wide world of sports is going on here?!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:44:29 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Gurth."
] For holding a magician for a short while, like just after they've been
] arrested but not processed yet, LS could stick them in a cell and have an
] astral magician keep an eye on things. This would be impractical when
] holding a large number of magicians all at once, but OTOH there won't be
] man occasions with mass arrests of the magically active, I think.

I'd think Lone Star magicians would be waaaay too valuable to waste
on babysitting duty. My guess is they have their hands full already,
and the corp can't afford to have them inactive for the day(s) it takes
to process a suspect.

-Murder of One
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:38:28 +0100
According to Scott Wheelock, at 18:44 on 23 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> I'd think Lone Star magicians would be waaaay too valuable to waste
> on babysitting duty. My guess is they have their hands full already,
> and the corp can't afford to have them inactive for the day(s) it takes
> to process a suspect.

OTOH do you _really_ want an arrested suspect to go wander off astrally to
find his or her friends who can then come and assault the police station
to break out this suspect?

I guess the best option would be a very strongly-constructed cell (to stop
those nasty Force whatever physical combat spells), one-way glass to
prevent spells being cast at the guards by anyone inside, and with wards
around it to stop astral travel. Probably best to also add in some kind of
gas system to knock out anyone in the cell when they start to cause
trouble. A police magician could then astrally check on the occupant every
so often (at random intervals) to make sure they're not attempting
anything they're not supposed to.

Another option would be to order a spirit to call for reinforcements at
the first sign of magical activity (of any kind) in the cell. A flock of
watchers might be best for this, if only because they're cheap and easy to
conjure.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What in the wide wide world of sports is going on here?!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: Jhary-a-Conel jhary-a-conel@***.net
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:05:29 +0100
On 24 Mar 99, at 10:38, Gurth wrote:
[snip]
> I guess the best option would be a very strongly-constructed cell (to stop
> those nasty Force whatever physical combat spells), one-way glass to
> prevent spells being cast at the guards by anyone inside, and with wards
> around it to stop astral travel. Probably best to also add in some kind of
> gas system to knock out anyone in the cell when they start to cause
> trouble. A police magician could then astrally check on the occupant every
> so often (at random intervals) to make sure they're not attempting
> anything they're not supposed to.
Yeah, one point where SR2/3 changes really have impact. :-(

> Another option would be to order a spirit to call for reinforcements at
> the first sign of magical activity (of any kind) in the cell. A flock of
> watchers might be best for this, if only because they're cheap and easy to
> conjure.
Watchers would probably best. One or two watchers, conjured for
days, could offer astral guard duty for a precinct house, thus
covering not just magic active prisoners, but astral/magical attacks
also. See CorpSec p.103, Grim2 p. 92.

Those watchers could alert a patch of magicians, like SWAT
magicians not on a mission atm.


Jhary
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Message no. 19
From: Michael Fitzpatrick oliver_wilken@*******.com
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:20:20 PST
>>Another option would be to order a spirit to call for reinforcements
at the first sign of magical activity (of any kind) in the cell. A flock
of watchers might be best for this, if only because they're cheap and
easy to conjure.

The only problem that I see with using watcher spirits is that their not
that bright. "Watchers do not deal well with unforeseen
difficulties..." (pg 74 the Grimoire Second Edition). Yes you can have
them patrol around the station all you want, but will they react
correctly when they are needed?

Oliver (Hermetic Mage Extraordinar)

Magic is the life blood of this world, use it wisely
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Message no. 20
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:31:24 +0100
According to Michael Fitzpatrick, at 14:20 on 25 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> The only problem that I see with using watcher spirits is that their not
> that bright. "Watchers do not deal well with unforeseen
> difficulties..." (pg 74 the Grimoire Second Edition). Yes you can have
> them patrol around the station all you want, but will they react
> correctly when they are needed?

Not the whole station, just one room. Whenever something magical happens
(which should be easy enough to spot even for a watcher, just by watching
the light show on the astral plane), calling for reinforcements wouldn't
be that difficult either.

Provided the order is carefully worded, of course. (Not that I propose to
handle this like an AD&D Wish spell would be, but magicians should pay
attention to what they tell a watcher to do.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What in the wide wide world of sports is going on here?!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:31:24 +0100
According to Jhary-a-Conel, at 22:05 on 25 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

[snip cell description]
> Yeah, one point where SR2/3 changes really have impact. :-(

For those (like me) who still use the rule that you can't pass through
living materials on the astral plane, adding FAB-filled walls, doors, and
window bars and/or ivy growing over the outside of the walls will help a
lot as well.

> Watchers would probably best. One or two watchers, conjured for
> days, could offer astral guard duty for a precinct house, thus
> covering not just magic active prisoners, but astral/magical attacks
> also. See CorpSec p.103, Grim2 p. 92.
>
> Those watchers could alert a patch of magicians, like SWAT
> magicians not on a mission atm.

That's more or less what I had in mind too. Those same magicians could
also check on the prisoners from time to time, when the don't have
anything better to do.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What in the wide wide world of sports is going on here?!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: Jhary-a-Conel jhary-a-conel@***.net
Subject: A couple of Questions (2nd Question)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:31:35 +0200
On 25 Mar 99, at 14:20, Michael Fitzpatrick wrote:
[snip watchers to cover captured magicians' astral activity]
> The only problem that I see with using watcher spirits is that their not
> that bright. "Watchers do not deal well with unforeseen difficulties..."
> (pg 74 the Grimoire Second Edition). Yes you can have them patrol around
> the station all you want, but will they react correctly when they are
> needed?
Well... for sure this depends how you formulate the job the watcher
has to fulfill. "Go to THIS point when you see astral activity in this
building" is not too hard to follow, even for force 1 watchers.

This _will_ alert SWAT magicians even when a (registered)
magician with an active focus wants to pay a fine at the police
station, yes. How often do you think this happens? :-)


Jhary
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