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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Webb)
Subject: Acrobat and Word, was RE: Shadowrun State of the Union
Date: Tue May 8 16:50:01 2001
All of these arguments are true, but there is one other thing I'd like to
point out. Looking at a pdf file is a painful process, espescially if your
viewing it on a a computer with a lousy video card. It's klodgy, slow, and
annoying. I despise acrobat and in the past when I went to get
documentation, and I found it was a pdf file, I dropped the whole matter and
ignored the project. I'm not the only one like that... it's a bloated
ineffectual interface, and the pdf files tend to be pointlessly oversized. I
don't have a preference for word, but it's fine, and in my opinion, acrobat
sucks.

And I and everybody I know have word on their computer... it's a standard
distribution on any windows interface, which is unfortunately most of the
world. (They have other versions they sell, but you can do everything you
need to, including edit, on the standard version out of the box.) And if you
don't have windows, the free distribution of office for x-windows will
automatically read word format as well. I have no idea where someone got the
idea that "not everyone has word." Its frigging everywhere... much more
standard then acrobat, and much easier to deal with. I know of what I speak,
I install and re-install on 600 computers over several different networks as
part of my job. Even the unix/linux computers are capable of processing word
documents immediately after system install. That is not true of acrobat
reader.


<I also feel obligated to point out that your are also obligated to "shell
out money for the editor" when using Word, and it is priced about the same
as the full version of acrobat. It sounds to me like your complaint is
closer to "I can't pirate Acrobat as easily as I can pirate Word".>

< Some computers, mine included, come with Word already installed as part of
the package. Most of the people I know already have Word and have for some
time. I think the objection is to having to purchase Adobe when you already
have Word and don't have the money to be shelling out for another editor.>


I understand that argument... but what about when OfficeXP hits the stores
in a few months? Your copy of word won't necessarily be able to open/read
files created with that version of Word. So you will either have to shell
out that cash ANYHOW, or submit to downloading a WordXP reader from
Microsoft... that works exactly like Acrobat Reader, but for Word documents.
So if your either going to have to use a reader or pay for an editor either
way, it only makes sense that you use the format that is compatible with the
greater number of platforms, so that all users have the ability to view the
work.


My $0.02,
--Aristotle
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (lpvoid)
Subject: Acrobat and Word, was RE: Shadowrun State of the Union
Date: Tue May 8 20:00:01 2001
I have seen several mentions of Microsoft Word being standard on "all"
installations of Windows. I believe there is some sort of confusion here
because this is not a completely factual statement. Word is a member of the
Office application suite. Word Pad as well as Notepad come standard with
Windows. And no, you cannot do everything with the standard Word Pad that
you can do with Word. For one thing, Word Pad doesn't even have a spell
checker and tables created in Word do not display properly in Word Pad. I
have run across many situations where my Microsoft Word documents do not
maintain their formatting when brought from one computer to the next.

As a software designer I am not only responsible for developing applications
(and web sites unfortunately) but also documenting them for the end users.
I use a wide range of word processing and layout managers to get my work
done. But I would suggest that those people that are afraid of paying for
the Microsoft Office Suite to go to http://www.sun.com/staroffice/ and
download StarOffice for free. It handles more than you might think.

Adam J, you and Rob stick to what you are doing, you can't please everyone
and .PDF is great when looking to preserve your layout.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Acrobat and Word, was RE: Shadowrun State of the Union
Date: Tue May 8 23:10:00 2001
<I have seen several mentions of Microsoft Word being standard on "all"
installations of Windows. I believe there is some sort of confusion here
because this is not a completely factual statement. Word is a member of the
Office application suite. Word Pad as well as Notepad come standard with
Windows. And no, you cannot do everything with the standard Word Pad that
you can do with Word. For one thing, Word Pad doesn't even have a spell
checker and tables created in Word do not display properly in Word Pad. I
have run across many situations where my Microsoft Word documents do not
maintain their formatting when brought from one computer to the next.

As a software designer I am not only responsible for developing applications
(and web sites unfortunately) but also documenting them for the end users.
I use a wide range of word processing and layout managers to get my work
done. But I would suggest that those people that are afraid of paying for
the Microsoft Office Suite to go to http://www.sun.com/staroffice/ and
download StarOffice for free. It handles more than you might think.

Adam J, you and Rob stick to what you are doing, you can't please everyone
and .PDF is great when looking to preserve your layout.>

First of all, I assure you, I for one am not talking about "Word Pad" which is
the first thing I delete on my computer after setup. I am referring to "Microsoft
Word", the file that is part of the "Microsoft Office" suite and that comes
standard on at the very least Gateway computers. Now I can't vouch for the others, or
other systems but that's why I said "most" because Gateway seems to be the
standard nowadays. That or Dell, or HP usually at any rate. And besides that it's not an
issue of not wanting to pay for Office...it's an issue of they already HAVE office and
don't want to pay for another processor. I frankly don't blame them. These suites when you
have to pick them up cost a small fraggin' fortune, but that's the ever-lovable corps for
you.

Second of all, as I've already started to touch on, you've missed the point entirely. It's
not that they don't want to buy A processor. It's that they don't want to buy ANOTHER
processor.

While I'll concede that the Acrobat layout looks great and I wish I could figure out how
to use it myelf to make these things because it looks a lot better with the finished
product than say, Word...there are those of us who want to be able to download something
from the net, cut it down to the bones so we have a reference material and actually use
the bloody thing at the gaming table without having to use enough printer paper to
reproduce "The Stand".

I'm not in favor of any one or the other, in fact personally I have Acrobat, Word, AND
Corel on my computer so I can DL anything you throw at me and make use of it, but there
are those who don't have these programs and who might not have the technical know-how that
we take for granted to download and install these things. Or in some cases they might not
even be on their own computer and I know that personally I get very protective of not
wanting anything downloaded on my computer without my knowing about it and preferably
supervising it. But then I'm just a stickler like that and that's another subject
altogether...

To summarize - Yes, PDF looks great, don't stop making them like that - It wouldn't hurt
to put it out in other formats also however in order to make them more accessible, I'll
even offer to do up the Word formats if you like - Even if you just make them available in
both PDF and HTML that would be better because then the ones with word can DL it just like
a web page and then use that on just about any word processor in existence.

I realize you don't want people taking your work and taking credit for it, that IS a valid
concern. But those of us who just want to make good use of what's available out there
might not all have the means to do so with what you have available. Those DLs are a little
too big for some of us out here.

And I don't know about anybody else but I can say for myself that even when I DO borrow
other people's material I make sure to give them credit for their work and even provide a
link to their site and make it clear that what I have on my site is only a sample of what
they'll find.

Ummm...okay, ::laughs:: now that I'm done writing out the internet supplement user's Bible
or at least enough to fill one, I'll just step off this soap box before I fall off and
hurt mahself! Just a suggestion on behalf of those that don't have the necessary tools or
possibly technical know-how to make the most of what we have available out here. And a
clarification of what seems to have been said so far.

Feel free to take with as much salt as you like...
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam J)
Subject: Acrobat and Word, was RE: Shadowrun State of the Union
Date: Tue May 8 23:25:00 2001
At 21:11 08/05/2001, Sinabian@***.com wrote:

>To summarize - Yes, PDF looks great, don't stop making them like that - It
>wouldn't hurt to put it out in other formats also however in order to make
>them more accessible, I'll even offer to do up the Word formats if you like
>- Even if you just make them available in both PDF and HTML that would be
>better because then the ones with word can DL it just like a web page and
>then use that on just about any word processor in existence.

From my post:

"This means PDFs for documents that must retain their formatting
(Character sheets), HTML for documents that don't need as much formatting
(Adventures, book excerpts, etc), and I'm undecided as to what format to
use for lengthy documents with lots of tables (equipment lists) - I would
hope to present them in multiple formats, but Rob and I are still
discussing that."

And funnily enough, when I was thinking about what format to put the
equipment lists in, one of the major complaints voiced about the ones in
the books was "The font is too small", which to me implies that people
wouldn't mind spending a bit more for paper in order to get something that
was nicely readable.

Word can open HTML files and save them as Word files. Unless Rob decides
that it is a Really Great (tm) idea, I'm pretty certain that Word/RTF files
will not be made available on the FanPro page, as HTML now basically fills
the same niche they do - a semi defined document that will look slightly
different on various operating systems, printers, versions of client
programs, etc.

Adam
--
< http://tss.dumpshock.com : http://www.jillted.org >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Acrobat and Word, was RE: Shadowrun State of the Union
Date: Tue May 8 23:40:01 2001
< >To summarize - Yes, PDF looks great, don't stop making them like that - It
>wouldn't hurt to put it out in other formats also however in order to make
>them more accessible, I'll even offer to do up the Word formats if you like
>- Even if you just make them available in both PDF and HTML that would be
>better because then the ones with word can DL it just like a web page and
>then use that on just about any word processor in existence.

From my post:

"This means PDFs for documents that must retain their formatting
(Character sheets), HTML for documents that don't need as much formatting
(Adventures, book excerpts, etc), and I'm undecided as to what format to
use for lengthy documents with lots of tables (equipment lists) - I would
hope to present them in multiple formats, but Rob and I are still
discussing that."

And funnily enough, when I was thinking about what format to put the
equipment lists in, one of the major complaints voiced about the ones in
the books was "The font is too small", which to me implies that people
wouldn't mind spending a bit more for paper in order to get something that
was nicely readable.

Word can open HTML files and save them as Word files. Unless Rob decides
that it is a Really Great (tm) idea, I'm pretty certain that Word/RTF files
will not be made available on the FanPro page, as HTML now basically fills
the same niche they do - a semi defined document that will look slightly
different on various operating systems, printers, versions of client
programs, etc.

Adam>


Well now it appears to have been my turn to miss a very important fact in this
discussion...hehe. To summarize, I'm now eating crow and it tastes delicious. But hey at
the very least I'm glad at least the whole email was read. I was half-afraid I'd made it
too dern wordy and nobody would wade through the whole thing. So, humbly, I say check and
mate. I think that's all anybody else really needed to hear too, since Word vs. Acrobat
seems to have been central to the discussion.

PS - I don't know if I mentioned it in the last, and I'm sure this is something else I've
missed along the way, but how DOES one construct a .PDF? Because as I mentioned I like the
layouts you get with those. I DLed some character sheets from the Plastic Warriors site a
few days ago and they were beautifully done.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dvixen)
Subject: Acrobat and Word, was RE: Shadowrun State of the Union
Date: Wed May 9 01:15:01 2001
> PS - I don't know if I mentioned it in the last, and I'm sure
> this is something else I've missed along the way, but how DOES
> one construct a .PDF? Because as I mentioned I like the layouts
> you get with those. I DLed some character sheets from the Plastic
> Warriors site a few days ago and they were beautifully done.

The Adobe Acrobat plug in (part of the full version) does it very nicely. In
a real short form, it's a 'print to pdf plugin' Makes creating a pdf from
that perfect html page a breeze. All of the Hlair erratas are made as a
print output directly from the website. ... I think. Or I printed them off
my machine. I forget. :D

Suffice it to say it's all rather painless. and with the acrobat reader
being such an easy install, even moreso, imo.
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Acrobat and Word, was RE: Shadowrun State of the Union
Date: Wed May 9 06:35:01 2001
According to Michael Webb, on Tue, 08 May 2001 the word on the street was...

<GridSec>
Michael, we have told you many times to reply _after_ the material you
quote, not above it.
</GridSec>

> All of these arguments are true, but there is one other thing I'd like to
> point out. Looking at a pdf file is a painful process, espescially if your
> viewing it on a a computer with a lousy video card. It's klodgy, slow, and
> annoying.

So print it out...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (lpvoid)
Subject: Acrobat and Word, was RE: Shadowrun State of the Union
Date: Wed May 9 20:05:01 2001
For some reason this reply did not insert the previous comments properly so
please bear with me...

> First of all, I assure you, I for one am not talking about "Word Pad"
which is the first thing I delete on my computer after setup. I am referring
to "Microsoft Word", the file that is part of the "Microsoft Office"
suite
and that comes standard on at the very least Gateway computers. Now I can't
vouch for the others, or other systems but that's why I said "most" because
Gateway seems to be the standard nowadays. That or Dell, or HP usually at
any rate. And besides that it's not an issue of not wanting to pay for
Office...it's an issue of they already HAVE office and don't want to pay for
another processor. I frankly don't blame them. These suites when you have to
pick them up cost a small fraggin' fortune, but that's the ever-lovable
corps for you.
>

Sinabian, I must apologize, we generally build the computers we deal with
(so I naturally misunderstood the "all/most computers come standard with
..." comment) and just today I was involved in an assignment that required a
preconfigured IBM Laptop that had the Microsoft Office suite OEM installed.
Funny how these things pop up. That crow didn't taste so bad... And I do
agree with you in that many people are not as fortunate as you and I in
having the technical know-how or the excessive money to toss around on
over-bloated word processors - gotta love 'dem corps eh?

> Second of all, as I've already started to touch on, you've missed the
point entirely. It's not that they don't want to buy A processor. It's that
they don't want to buy ANOTHER processor.
>

Completely understood, which is why I added the link to the free office
suite in my previous message. And why should they have to buy more anyway?
The ball passes back into the Standards comities and hence the corps I
suppose.

> While I'll concede that the Acrobat layout looks great and I wish I could
figure out how to use it myelf to make these things because it looks a lot
better with the finished product than say, Word...there are those of us who
want to be able to download something from the net, cut it down to the bones
so we have a reference material and actually use the bloody thing at the
gaming table without having to use enough printer paper to reproduce "The
Stand".
>

Which is easily done actually. Provided the PDF security settings are set
to allow copying of text you can easily copy out what you want and paste it
into your favorite word processor. I've done this on numerous occasions and
simply did not copy what I did not want. I think maybe Adam J and Rob
should pay some attention to this detail as it may very well ease the
dilemma of "editing for personal use" issues. If you'd like we can take
this private and I'll walk you through some PDF makin as time permits.

> I'm not in favor of any one or the other, in fact personally I have
Acrobat, Word, AND Corel on my computer so I can DL anything you throw at me
and make use of it, but there are those who don't have these programs and
who might not have the technical know-how that we take for granted to
download and install these things. Or in some cases they might not even be
on their own computer and I know that personally I get very protective of
not wanting anything downloaded on my computer without my knowing about it
and preferably supervising it. But then I'm just a stickler like that and
that's another subject altogether...
>

I couldn't agree more, I don't like people using my machine at all much less
downloading crap on it. But, without taking this topic too far off
Shadowrun, you can easily relate the file types issue to web sire design
formats. JavaScript or VBScript or JScript, Java or Flash, etc... or et al.
Not everyone can view Flash which makes a much better presentation than Java
does but everyone on a Windows box (that hasn't deleted the JVM) can view
Java. Not every browser on the market will support JScript and VBScript,
and Scripting can be disabled altogether. My point is (I am sure you were
curious) that you can't even make a web page that is going to be viewed the
same on every machine so if the developers (in an effort to preserve their
work) of an online magazine make some minor concessions for the sake of
those editing fiends we as users and recipients of many hours of hard work
(for free I might add) should make some concessions on their behalf as well.

> To summarize - Yes, PDF looks great, don't stop making them like that - It
wouldn't hurt to put it out in other formats also however in order to make
them more accessible, I'll even offer to do up the Word formats if you
like - Even if you just make them available in both PDF and HTML that would
be better because then the ones with word can DL it just like a web page and
then use that on just about any word processor in existence.
>

Once again you make a valid point, it wouldn't hurt to offer up different
formats of the (I cannot express enough the lack of monetary cost) magazine
and maybe some of us should offer (as you have) to take not only the task of
document conversion but also web space for mirroring their work.

> I realize you don't want people taking your work and taking credit for it,
that IS a valid concern. But those of us who just want to make good use of
what's available out there might not all have the means to do so with what
you have available. Those DLs are a little too big for some of us out here.
>

This is a good point as well but I think Adam J and his work are too well
known for something of this nature to continue too long.

> And I don't know about anybody else but I can say for myself that even
when I DO borrow other people's material I make sure to give them credit for
their work and even provide a link to their site and make it clear that what
I have on my site is only a sample of what they'll find.
>

This is a good thing and I have nothing but admiration for you and your
integrity.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Acrobat and Word, was RE: Shadowrun State of the Union, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!