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Message no. 1
From: One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM>
Subject: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:30:16 PST
Greetings all. I'm most you on this list have played AD&D before, and
many probably know the game very intimately. I started playing AD&D
years ago, and the setting and atmosphere is great, but I have one
little problem.....the rules. Since getting involved with Shadowrun, I
have come to despise the AD&D rules system. Unfortunately, I've got
about $350 worth of AD&D books that I don't want to give/throw away, and
I'd still like to play the game. I just can't bring myself to deal with
those overly retarded rules. Has one ever ventured to make conversion
rules from SR to AD&D? If so, please let me know, or give me some
advice to steer me in the right direction. And yes, I've tried many
other fantasy RPGs, and I am unhappy with the rules for all of them.
SR, IMHO, has the best magic system and the best character creation
system in an RPG to date, and I'm looking to carry that over. I'll take
all suggestions. Thanks, guys/girls. <bows to all the veteran RPG
gurus on the list>

-Ronin

What I've felt, what I've known,
Turn the pages, turn to stone,
Behind the door, should I open it for you?
What I've felt, what I've known,
Sick and tired I stand ALONE,
Could you be there,
Cause I'm the one who waits for you,
Or are you Unforgiven too.....

-ICQ #:11373195


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Message no. 2
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:05:32 -0600
>Greetings all. I'm most you on this list have played AD&D before,
and
>many probably know the game very intimately. I started playing AD&D
>years ago, and the setting and atmosphere is great, but I have one
>little problem.....the rules. Since getting involved with Shadowrun,
I
>have come to despise the AD&D rules system. Unfortunately, I've got
>about $350 worth of AD&D books that I don't want to give/throw away,
and
>I'd still like to play the game. I just can't bring myself to deal
with
>those overly retarded rules. Has one ever ventured to make
conversion
>rules from SR to AD&D? If so, please let me know, or give me some
>advice to steer me in the right direction. And yes, I've tried many
>other fantasy RPGs, and I am unhappy with the rules for all of them.
>SR, IMHO, has the best magic system and the best character creation
>system in an RPG to date, and I'm looking to carry that over. I'll
take
>all suggestions. Thanks, guys/girls. <bows to all the veteran RPG
>gurus on the list>


<bowing in return>
And thanx for the various stuff you have posted to the list, I have
enjoyed reading it.

As far as the whole combat/magic/weapon system, I have often thought
the same thing. I just plain like the mechanics of the game.

However, if you are going to port it over to AD&D, the first thing
that comes to mind is that magic is a powerful tool in the Sixth
World, and is balanced out by cyberware, armor, and modern weaponry.
Unless you run on of those very outlandish AD&D games, I am assuming
that those items will not be present in that setting.

In order to prevent the magic from overpowering everything else, you
may have to fiddle around with such things as drain codes to make
things a bit tougher on your spellslingers and summoners

You'll also probably have to do a fair amount of spell construction if
you want to bring over all the AD&D spells, and some armor and melee
weapons just for the variety.

Just a thought, ever tried Earthdawn? Good mechanics there, too, and
the right fantasy background, but now all those dungeons have a reason
to be there. We've used AD&D stuff that works very well with little
work necessary to swap it over.

Tony Rabiola
rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
(still working on the Fifth)
Proud owner BABY #972
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:36:45 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Tony Rabiola wrote:
/
/ However, if you are going to port it over to AD&D, the first thing
/ that comes to mind is that magic is a powerful tool in the Sixth
/ World, and is balanced out by cyberware, armor, and modern weaponry.
/ Unless you run on of those very outlandish AD&D games, I am assuming
/ that those items will not be present in that setting.
/
/ In order to prevent the magic from overpowering everything else, you
/ may have to fiddle around with such things as drain codes to make
/ things a bit tougher on your spellslingers and summoners

I don't think so. Remember that learning new spells and increasing
existing ones requires a library or lodge with a high rating. Whereas
those are somewhat easy to come by in Shadowrun they'd be very rare in
AD&D.

Other than that I'd use the spell list from Shadowrun as is. Other
than prohibiting things like cyberware, vehicles, firearms, and
electronic devices you can use the rules as is in a fantasy setting.

And I've allready figured out artifacts. Karma cost to bond is 1. Of
course, that artifact probably has some bad side effects <EGMG>. Stuff
like: Drain for spellcasting is physical, or x2. Drain for using any
of the artifacts abilities is physical or x2. The artifact is
exclusive (you can't carry any other magical foci or cast spells). The
artifact grants the owner a weakness or allergy. The artifact lowers
one or more of the owner's stats (Strength might become 5(3)).

To really carry it off you should get the Paranormal Animals of Europe
for the list of critter powers so you can make awakened critters.

FWIW, I still play AD&D *because* the rule system is a no brainer.
It's fun sometimes to play a RPG where you don't have to think about
the rules and you can get down to business :)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:33:09 -0600
Maybe I've just never noticed it, but what problems are being refered to?
The only problem I've run across is the "super Mage" and the all powerful
character.

As for chaning ADnD to Shadowrun I'd have to agree about the higher spell
drain. Cybernetics and weapons do balance magic, but couldn't that be done
in ADnD too? Instead of cybernetics, there can always be magically
constructed appendages and spell like abilities, not to mention the mass
number of magical items that can act as balance. You could even go as far
as having a character being a magical construct. Instead of a street sam,
there could be a "Warrior Construct". An Arm with the abilities to
shapechange into items (a select number of weapons, tools, shapes), or with
legs that grant speed like boots of speed, jumping as per spell, and maybe
some added things. Instead of essence, it could be magic points before the
character becomes part of the magical weave and ceases to exist as a
"person" and character. Certain effects could have points, but base
everything off spell levels. Just a thought... (now that I think about it,
that would be an interesting character type if I could put enough control
on it).

Point is that ADnD is open enough, any balance could reasonable be
maintained.

Something a friend of mine was thinking about was attepting to incorporate
RIFTS into Shadowrun.

Ron
#include disclamer.h
Message no. 5
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:51:11 -0800
> as having a character being a magical construct. Instead of a street sam,
> there could be a "Warrior Construct". An Arm with the abilities to
> shapechange into items (a select number of weapons, tools, shapes), or
> with
> legs that grant speed like boots of speed, jumping as per spell, and maybe
> some added things. Instead of essence, it could be magic points before
> the
> character becomes part of the magical weave and ceases to exist as a
> "person" and character. Certain effects could have points, but base
> everything off spell levels. Just a thought... (now that I think about
> it,
> that would be an interesting character type if I could put enough control
> on it).
>
This is a good idea...in fact, I think I'll work on something like
that...but what would you call the spell that makes the leg? Hmmm...some
type of modified wish or something like that? That's one of the problems
with AD&D...it's difficult to make your own spells without a liberal DM
(which I am, hehehe).

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 6
From: Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:20:54 -0600
>This is a good idea...in fact, I think I'll work on something like
>that...but what would you call the spell that makes the leg? Hmmm...some
>type of modified wish or something like that? That's one of the problems
>with AD&D...it's difficult to make your own spells without a liberal DM
>(which I am, hehehe).
>
>-=Toffer=-

Well, I know of a magical arm, so they are in creation. Probably an 8th or
9th level spell called something like "create magical appendage" or
"magical construct". You'd need a smith or someone to create the appendage
(it could be solid or hollow, wood or metal, depends on how one would think
this would work) then the standard enchant item and stuff like that.
Really, if you think about it, how do you create boots of speed? Yet they
exist, and from what I've seen they're more common than not. Or you could
have an artifact created by the God(s) of magic for that specific purpose.
I really think the how it's done is easy, but the what can it do is the
more important part.

To tie this with Shadowrun, to convert ADnD to Shadowrun, these are the
problems you'd have to solve. That is unless the highest power (the DM)
waves his(her) hand and everything is as it the power wants it to be with
no explinations.

Ron


#include disclamer.h
Message no. 7
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 01:25:04 +0000
Ron Clark wrote:
> Maybe I've just never noticed it, but what problems are being refered to?
> The only problem I've run across is the "super Mage" and the all powerful
> character.

Well, I'm GM'ing an AD&D campaign right now. It's fun, but the
system has a few problems that requires a lot of GM caveat. A
common example is the executioner chopping again and again on the
hero's neck. You are supposed to say 'he chops, you die.', also
accoring to the rulebook, but it's not always that clear - cut.
(Would you believe me if I said that pun wasn't intended? ;)

I've modified the rules and stuff a great deal. A few
examples...

HP is set. W/C/T/M: 8/6/5/3 per level (+ con bonus).
Attributes start at 18 17 16 15 14 13 place as you wish.

All damage rolls are open - ended. (1d6 damage, got a 6, roll again
and add). To compensate everyone gets +5 HP. Straight 20's do double
damage as long as a 20 would be enough to hit.

Anyone that is backstabbed takes a saving throw VS. death, at
8-damage multiplier * 2, in addition to the damage.

Healing depends on how much damage has been suffered. 0 to half is
minor injuries that disappear 'till the next day. half to quarter is
fairly serious damage - the character regains 3 HP a day and may roll
a healing prof. test to get 1d3 hp extra. Quarter to 1 the character
got a banewound that will not heal. Healing + herbalism may return
1d3 HP a day, but without it the player's in trouble.
(Cure light, severe, critical works as should be expected with such a
differentiation.).

Wizards may spend a proficiency to learn a spell - this spell can be
memorized without using a book, or time beyond some rest & quiet.
The Jack Vance style spells are gone. That includes signed pells -
Bigby, Tenser's, etc. as well as much of the metamagic - contigency,
wish, etc. Stoneskin gives +4 AC and half damage for the duration. Of
new powers are Vitality, which signifies the mage's power over life
and soul - he gets harder to kill (At 5th he will survive down to -10
HP, although is still crippled, at 12th and 18th I haven't decided
yet.). Dark Sun's 10th level spells require a lvl 20 wizard/cleric,
and exist. Three primary schools of magic - necromancy, demonology,
elementalism, with strong individual differences.

Alignment is gone and will not be missed. Evil is as evil does, as
well as being in the eye of the beholder where it belongs.
(Now that's a pun monster if I ever saw one.). I've also toned down
monsters a lot.. humans, orcs and goblinkind is the most noticeable
threats.

Experience awards depend a lot more on accomplished tasks than
killing.

Proficiencies has been expanded on:

Armor use skill, works like this:
X is # of armor proficiencies.
Y is the armor's base AC.
Z is dex bonus.
A is (X-(10-Y))/2, rounded down, and set to 0 if negative.

Final AC is: (int) Y-A+Z

Thieves get reduced armor penalties on thief skills with armor skill
(2% per skill higher than 10-Y, mages and clerics can cast spells in
armor if they have (10-Y) armor proficiencies.

Exceptional armor gets a +1 or +2 modifier to AC for armor
proficiency comparisons.

Anyone may spend proficiencies to specialize in a weapon. Additional
proficiencies spent on a weapon gives +1 to damage, +1 to hit, then
+1 to damage again. Further proficiencies spent improves the
attacker's level IRT Thaco. Only warriors get multiple attacks
though.

Proficiencies may also be spent on thief skills. Everyone starts with
the base thief skills (without the 40?60? % bonus a thief gets. Each
proficiency spent increases a thief skill by 10%.

I grade skill tests - each 4 pt difference makes the result a bit
better (or worse) rather than plain success/failure. Each 4 pt margin
on a perception (intelligence, another heritage from SR) test makes
the thief's sneaking test harder by 5%, for instance.

Players also get karma. (Another idea I borrowed from some game or
other. It can be used to reroll to hit, saves, prof. tests or absorb
5 pt of damage. They have 3 karma, and the sum will not change.

On the whole, the rules work, but they demand a lot more GM calls
than SR, they are a lot less 'realistic', but they can still be used
to spin a good yarn.

In fact, the story we're playing works very well. It's one of the
better ones I've done the last couple of years, I think. (Inspired
by the Black Company and Assassin's Apprentice.).

Regards,
Fade
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 8
From: Goth Chylde <goth_chylde@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:08:18 PST
In reply to your question about the use of Shadowrun as a system
for roleplaying in the AD&D setting(s) I have been running a very
satisfying game doing just that for the last 9 months or so.

Simply put I have a rough system for directly converting the stats
of NPC's and monsters, expanded charts for equipment and weapons,
archtypes for numerous contacts and PC's and a breakdown of the spell
catagories and Meta-magical abilities for use
by mages and clerics alike.

If you are interested contact me privately at
Absinthe_Minded@*******.com.

I should warn you however, none of my notes or charts are
computerized, all of it is hand written in my GM notebook, but I would
be willing to share as much of it as is wanted..... given enough time
to put it in the ol' computer!


Goth Chylde

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Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:47:46 +0100
According to One Ronin, at 10:30 on 1 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> Has one ever ventured to make conversion rules from SR to AD&D? If so,
> please let me know, or give me some advice to steer me in the right
> direction.

There are no such things AFAIK, but it shouldn't be too difficult to come
up with some. One of the main questions would be, I guess, if you want to
stick to the 3-18 attribute system or change it to SR's 1-6.

With the former, you'll probably be rolling too many dice for comfort
("Constitution test? I've got 13 dice here, hand me four more!"). It would
also necessitate increasing TNs, because with more dice you'll roll more
successes than you would in SR under similar circumstances.

Changing to a 1-6 attribute range, though, gets over this at the cost of
some of the attribute variation possible with AD&D -- where there can be
quite a difference between a +1 to an attribute and a +2, which would get
taken away if you divide the final value by 3. You'd need to round up,
BTW, because otherwise demihumans get no useful attribute modifiers at
all.

From your post I gather you want to use SR's character generation system,
which takes some work. Mainly you'd have to decide on how many attribute
and skill points etc. characters get for each priority, and how the
various classes fit into the system (magic user A, warrior E?). This is
something best decided on by how you view the world, though.

As for the combat and magic systems: combat you can keep as it is, all
you'd need to do is come up with SR stats for AD&D's equipment. That takes
some work and thought, but it's not very complicated. For the magic
system, my advice is to simply calculate a Drain Code for the AD&D spells
using the rules from the Grimoire. The important thing you need to take
into account here is that AD&D can do much more with magic than SR can, so
your interpretations of a spell's effects would have to be adjusted
accordingly.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If I had green hair, I'd dye it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:39:10 +1000
>Has one ever ventured to make conversion
>rules from SR to AD&D? If so, please let me know, or give me some
>advice to steer me in the right direction.

No, I haven't converted it... But my thoughts on the matter.

The SR rules system may seem to work well in an AD&D/fantasy setting to a
limited degree. Just make up characters using SR's system, and play. Many,
many problems exist before it's totally playable, though, and here's just a
few.

Now, that's all well and good while fighting other people, and the
demihumans also. But you'd have to go over the other AD&D monsters with a
fine tooth comb to convert them properly, and fairly. For instance, a
beholder could be rather tricky. What about the undead, and the cleric's
ability to turn some of them some of the time? What about Giants, and
Living Walls, and the Lycanthropes, Mind Flayers, or psionics? There's
Baatezu and dragons... The list goes on. Depending on how you view them,
the only things that are easy to convert are normal animals and dragons.
But even then, there's many, many different types of dragons in AD&D, and
they all have different powers than a SR dragon.

Using a SR system, though, would really throw the balance of the game out.
AD&D low level mages are weak; they have few hitpoints, are close to useless
with weapons, can wear no armour and have few spells. They can't learn the
harder and more powerful spells. In a SR gaming system, it would require
much work and checking of characters to stay within the bounds, by players
and GMs alike. If you DON'T, then you run into problems. Suddenly the
warriors and thieves are outclassed even at low levels. There's no cyber,
bioware, or cool guns for them to keep up with.

Magic in AD&D works because the GM says it does. There's no point arguing
whether spell X can do target something, because there's no logic behind the
magic, like there is in Shadowrun. Making the SR equivalent of Teleport, or
Shapechange, or any of the others that aren't detailed in SR would be time
consuming, as the relative difficulty of casting spells in AD&D is much
different.

Clerics receive their power from the gods. And it's a different type of
magic to what the mages can use, in many cases very different. How to
convert that?

Magical weapons and items in AD&D work for whoever is using the item, unlike
SR where the foci need to be bonded.

Mages of all types can astrally project in SR. Even phys ads can astrally
perceive. AD&D has no equivalent, except perhaps the Ethereal Plane, and
even that's not the same. Only a very few spells can do that, while there's
no spells in SR (officially) that allow the mage or anyone else to do that.

AD&D has the ability to go to other planes of existence. Other than the
theories of parallel universes, there's no equivalent in SR except perhaps
the astral planes.

SR has it's flavour enhanced by riggers and deckers, able to control
vehicles or surf the matrix seemingly at will. AD&D has neither a matrix
nor vehicles of the sort a rigger could control. Taking the fast-paced
information world that we live in out of the equation narrows the choices of
the players, and makes much of the SR rules system unusable.

Combat as a whole is very different in the two systems. AD&D has the "Hit,
miss, hit doing X damage" system, while SR gives the person a chance. "You
took a 6D. Subtract armour, and resist." With the many and varied weapons
available in AD&D, it's a bit hard to simplify it down to "sword, doing
str+X damage" under SR's system, as a lot of the flavour of AD&D could be
lost by doing that here and elsewhere.

-----

To convert all of that and more, in a way that was both fun and balanced,
would be a massive undertaking. It's not as simple as taking the tech and
adding the fantasy.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it done, and I can see lots of benefits
of doing it, but it'd be a labour of love, and take quite a while to
complete in any case.

Or you can do what we did - Play AD&D, accept that the rules suck, but
that's the way it is. Live with it, and have fun! :)

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:05:58 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 02 December 1998 01:31
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....


<snip ragging SR/Ad&D conversions, and rightly so>

>
>To convert all of that and more, in a way that was both fun and
balanced,
>would be a massive undertaking. It's not as simple as taking the
tech and
>adding the fantasy.
>
>Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it done, and I can see lots of
benefits
>of doing it, but it'd be a labour of love, and take quite a while to
>complete in any case.
>
>Or you can do what we did - Play AD&D, accept that the rules suck,
but

>that's the way it is. Live with it, and have fun! :)


Another option that has little to do with SR is the Options books that
TSR brought out for
AD&D2. They greatly expand and expound upon the exosting system and
make it almost bearable.
Check out Combat and Tactics and Spells and Powers as well as the High
Level Campaign Book.
<plugging products I dont like, weird :)>

Cheers

-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Eva's Gyro
Message no. 12
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:10:41 +1100
>Another option that has little to do with SR is the Options books that
>TSR brought out for
>AD&D2. They greatly expand and expound upon the exosting system and
>make it almost bearable.
>Check out Combat and Tactics and Spells and Powers as well as the High
>Level Campaign Book.
><plugging products I dont like, weird :)>

Bah... Combat and Tactics, High Levels, and Spells and Magic are both
pitiful. Of the four or so Players Options books, only Skills and Powers
is even remotely useful to anyone who wants to expand or improve their
game, and even then... well, you get the point. There's a reason I play
Shadowrun and not some lame arse 60s game. \=)
ARKHAM runs away to hide in the shadows... not a good thing to be bashing
rival games... or is it?
Message no. 13
From: Dallandra <bz701@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:25:42 GMT
<edited for shortening reasons>

> game, and even then... well, you get the point. There's a reason I play
> Shadowrun and not some lame arse 60s game. \=)
> ARKHAM runs away to hide in the shadows... not a good thing to be bashing
> rival games... or is it?
>

I'm afraid I agree. If i wanted to be running thru caves bashing
monsters I'd play AD and D!
One of the reasons Shadowrun appeals to me is it's difference from
the old hack'n'slash stuff.

Dallandra xx (Now hiding behind ARKHAM!)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Welcome to Dallandra's World. Now bend over!
__________________________________________________

All year round Email address: Dallandra@******.net
Website http://come.to/Dallandra
Message no. 14
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:57:47 +1000
>I'm afraid I agree. If i wanted to be running thru caves bashing
>monsters I'd play AD and D!
>One of the reasons Shadowrun appeals to me is it's difference from
>the old hack'n'slash stuff.


The original D&D was developed from wargaming, and as such lacked the "real"
roleplaying that some of us enjoy... But, as you said, if I want to run
around in a medieval setting bashing monsters, there's nothing better than
AD&D.

On another note, absolutely every gaming system out there that has a combat
system has the potential to turn into a "hack &slash" game, as you and I
call it. SR is no different.

It's just that AD&D, being the first and most successful, has a hard time
coming across as a roleplaying system when there's all those wonderful
monsters to go out and bash, all that treasure to divvy up, and all that XP
to gain. More rules are not necessarily better rules, as we all know, and
the VAST majority of rules in AD&D are combat or games mechanics related,
not roleplaying.

Neither AD&D nor SR promote roleplaying much, either. For example, neither
has major rewards for playing in character, for coming across AS your
character. What's a measly 100 XP or 1 karma when if you play the munchkin
powergamer there's so much more to be had? The only true roleplaying
adventure I've seen in either system is Harlequin's Back, where the
characters are supposed to roleplay many of the encounters and events.

(But then, Harle's Back was more like a story that now and then the
characters could affect... Also, in the Wild West episode, did anyone else
make armour? Our group did, walking around like Ned Kelly against rifles,
with at least some protection. Better than the poor sods with none. Ahh,
what a great country to inspire people like that... (Ned Kelly is
Australian. :) )

Slipspeed, an AD&D fan, but not a blind one...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:05:02 +1000
>Another option that has little to do with SR is the Options books that
>TSR brought out for
>AD&D2. They greatly expand and expound upon the exosting system and
>make it almost bearable.
>Check out Combat and Tactics and Spells and Powers as well as the High
>Level Campaign Book.


They all have their places... They all have their good parts and bad parts
too. The reason I, on the whole, DISlike them, however, is that there's far
too many AD&D rules and rulebooks as there is. Other, unmentioned RPGs are
in danger of heading the same way, too. It's one thing to bring out new
plot information, advance the game world and such, add adventures, but
having 2 dozen books just for rules is silly. Rolemaster has it, and it's
nowhere near as successful as either SR or AD&D.

If rules need fixing, fine, but if not, we don't necessarily NEED more rules
all the time. (eg. AD&D's Ninja's, Barbarian's and Humanoid's Handbooks...
I wonder just how successful they are. Not in sales, but in the amount
they're used.)

I remember a certain comment in the original D&D Basic Rules boxed set...
To paraphrase, if the rules given don't sit right, or don't cover something,
the DM/GM/group should make a call, answering the problem. Hence, house
rules. No need to turn those house rules into another book.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:16:36 -0500
On 2 Dec 98, at 22:57, Slipspeed wrote:

> The original D&D was developed from wargaming, and as such lacked the
> "real" roleplaying that some of us enjoy... But, as you said, if I want
> to run around in a medieval setting bashing monsters, there's nothing
> better than AD&D.

If you said nothing simpler, I would agree. But better? Try Earthdawn
for a better fantasy setting. I only had limited exposure to it at
GenCon, and found it fascinating. Also, the rules are well thought
out.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - |"Letter writing is the only
- drekhead@***.net - | device for combining
HTML to: drekhead@********.net | solitude and good company."
ICQ - UIN 2883757 | -Lord Byron
Message no. 17
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:41:30 +1000
>> The original D&D was developed from wargaming, and as such lacked the
>> "real" roleplaying that some of us enjoy... But, as you said, if I
want
>> to run around in a medieval setting bashing monsters, there's nothing
>> better than AD&D.
>
>If you said nothing simpler, I would agree. But better? Try Earthdawn
>for a better fantasy setting. I only had limited exposure to it at
>GenCon, and found it fascinating. Also, the rules are well thought
>out.


I stand by my comment... AD&D isn't simple, not without cutting back to the
basic rules (And even then...). Earthdawn is good, yes, but it has a
finite, limited story. The horrors are here, and you're off to fight them
and their minions. While the rules system is good to great, the world is
set in stone. The history cannot be altered by much, if at all. Being part
of Earth's "fantasy" history, it leans against making your own setting, and
against making your own monsters, items and spells. There's no alternative
worlds in production. Shadowrun, at least, is in the future; you can have
"world destroying" plots, and not have the players dubiously accept it.
After all, if a world-destroyer happened in Earthdawn's time, we wouldn't be
here. I find AD&D a much more... Inspiring setting, I suppose.

Anyway, this isn't the place to discuss the relative merits of Earthdawn and
AD&D. Suffice to say that I enjoy both, but much prefer AD&D. If anyone
REALLY wants to argue, mail me privately. It'll save Gridsec a headache or
two. :)

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:57:23 +1100
>I stand by my comment... AD&D isn't simple, not without cutting back to the
>basic rules (And even then...). Earthdawn is good, yes, but it has a
>finite, limited story. The horrors are here, and you're off to fight them
>and their minions. While the rules system is good to great, the world is
>set in stone. The history cannot be altered by much, if at all. Being part
>of Earth's "fantasy" history, it leans against making your own setting, and
>against making your own monsters, items and spells. There's no alternative
>worlds in production. Shadowrun, at least, is in the future; you can have
>"world destroying" plots, and not have the players dubiously accept it.
>After all, if a world-destroyer happened in Earthdawn's time, we wouldn't be
>here. I find AD&D a much more... Inspiring setting, I suppose.
>
>Anyway, this isn't the place to discuss the relative merits of Earthdawn and
>AD&D. Suffice to say that I enjoy both, but much prefer AD&D. If anyone
>REALLY wants to argue, mail me privately. It'll save Gridsec a headache or
>two. :)


Erm... I hate to say it Slips, but who says you can't have 'world
destroying' plots in ED? You, like most people, are assuming that ED is
part of our (or at least the SR) universe - which no-one has said it is (at
least not officially anyway). As for being set in stone, well... one of
the key concepts to any roleplaying game is that if you don't like it -
change it.
Anyway, back to SR... (or at least back towards SR...)
Shadowrun is probably the simplest and most complex game system that I
play (I'm not even going near something like Rolemaster...). Easy enough
to master the dice rolls, easy enough to figure out the basics of a
situation and roll some dice for it, but difficult and time consuming to
determine the outcome of anything dicey (if you'll excuse the pun) - like
combat, the matrix, or magic.
Is anyone else concerned that the current direction of Shadowrun seems to
be leaning towards the 'complex' side of things? I mean, simple is great
in some ways - it frees up time for roleplaying, means you don't have to
memorize copious amounts of rules, rules modifiers, exceptions to the
rules, and so on, but it does detract somewhat from the realism of the
game, especially if you happen to be gaming with a group of monty haulers
who seem to require rules to do something as simple as opening a door at
more than walking speed (uh oh... Rolemaster flashbacks...) On the other
hand, too many rules means the game bogs down in mechanics and nothing
seems to get done (it's hard to generate excitement in a game where it's
taking a half hour to determine whether you can see someone or not...)
From the complexity of the rules published in the last few sourcebooks
(including SR3), it's starting to seem as if SR is moving away from simple
for the easy stuff and complex for difficult to resolve stuff, to simple
complex for everything. Anyway, the topic's up for debate...
[>]ARKHAM
"I used to think that the mind was the most fascinating part of a
human being - until I realized what was telling me that..."
Message no. 19
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:53:52 -0600
----------
> From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
>
> The original D&D was developed from wargaming, and as such lacked the
"real"
> roleplaying that some of us enjoy... But, as you said, if I want to run
> around in a medieval setting bashing monsters, there's nothing better
than
> AD&D.

Of course, if you want to run around a medieval setting, bashing monsters
or not, you can't beat Ars Magica...

You know, I find it amazing that my different lists get on the same topics
without any nudging from me... My Ars Magica list is now talking about
other games that are good for ArM....

--
Rev. Mark Hall
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
We are obligated, therefore, to spread the news, painful and bitter though
it may be for some to hear, that all living things on earth are kindred.
-Edward Abbey, _Desert Solitude_
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:19:30 +0100
According to Slipspeed, at 21:39 on 2 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> What about the undead, and the cleric's ability to turn some of them
> some of the time?

Make the cleric roll an open Willpower test, and turn a number of undead
equal to the result. For better results, count each undead as a number
equal to its hit dice (so that with a result of 10 you could turn 10
skeletons, 5 zombies, 3 shadows, or any combination that adds up to 10).

> What about Giants, and Living Walls, and the Lycanthropes, Mind Flayers,
> or psionics? There's Baatezu and dragons... The list goes on.
> Depending on how you view them, the only things that are easy to convert
> are normal animals and dragons. But even then, there's many, many
> different types of dragons in AD&D, and they all have different powers
> than a SR dragon.

The thing to do, IMO, is to convert only the things you want in your game.
That would mean all the PC races and equipment, but only the monsters you
want them to encounter and the spells and abilities they have access to.
If you don't want (or have) psionics in your campaign, don't convert them
to SR. Simple enough, I'd say.

> Clerics receive their power from the gods. And it's a different type of
> magic to what the mages can use, in many cases very different. How to
> convert that?

Totem modifiers. A cleric following an agricultural god gets extra dice
for casting spells that help the land, and so on.

> Magical weapons and items in AD&D work for whoever is using the item, unlike
> SR where the foci need to be bonded.

So? Chuck the bonding cost out the window, and use +X weapons as such --
anyone picking one up gets X extra dice to attack with, just like with
normal SR weapon foci.

> Mages of all types can astrally project in SR. Even phys ads can astrally
> perceive.

These are irrelevant differences, if you ask me. You're trying to compare
different world backgrounds to each other, which won't work. What should
be done here, I feel, is convert the rules for AD&D's reality into rules
useable with the Shadowrun game system. Magicians having astral perception
or not has nothing at all to do with this.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If I had green hair, I'd dye it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:19:30 +0100
According to Dallandra, at 12:25 on 2 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> I'm afraid I agree. If i wanted to be running thru caves bashing
> monsters I'd play AD and D!
> One of the reasons Shadowrun appeals to me is it's difference from
> the old hack'n'slash stuff.

You can play hack and slash with any game, just as you can play non-h&s
adventures with AD&D. Too bad that the few times my current group played
AD&D, the GM wanted a roleplaying adventure while the rest of us was more
in the mood for killing everything that moves :)

The SR equivalent of the traditional dungeon bash, for example, would be
something like breaking into a corp building where it doesn't matter how
much noise you make, so you simply shoot every security guard on sight,
and take with you anything and everything that looks valuable.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If I had green hair, I'd dye it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:29:10 EST
In a message dated 12/2/1998 9:16:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
drekhead@***.NET writes:

> If you said nothing simpler, I would agree. But better? Try Earthdawn
> for a better fantasy setting. I only had limited exposure to it at
> GenCon, and found it fascinating. Also, the rules are well thought
> out.
>
Beware the lure of the new and unknown Tim....

-K
Message no. 23
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:30:37 -0500
Gurth wrote:
> > What about the undead, and the cleric's ability to turn some of them
> > some of the time?
>
> Make the cleric roll an open Willpower test, and turn a number of undead
> equal to the result. For better results, count each undead as a number
> equal to its hit dice (so that with a result of 10 you could turn 10
> skeletons, 5 zombies, 3 shadows, or any combination that adds up to 10).
>
Why not just use a multiply-resisted test? Just like casting an area
effect spell? Bigger nasties get more dice to resist.

> > What about Giants, and Living Walls, and the Lycanthropes, Mind Flayers,
> > or psionics? There's Baatezu and dragons... The list goes on.
> > Depending on how you view them, the only things that are easy to convert
> > are normal animals and dragons. But even then, there's many, many
> > different types of dragons in AD&D, and they all have different powers
> > than a SR dragon.
>
> The thing to do, IMO, is to convert only the things you want in your game.
>
Well, even if you want all of the dragons to appear, the SR magic
system is flexible enough to handle most of the powers and since stuff
like flame breath is now just "innate spellcasting"...

> > Clerics receive their power from the gods. And it's a different type of
> > magic to what the mages can use, in many cases very different. How to
> > convert that?
>
> Totem modifiers. A cleric following an agricultural god gets extra dice
> for casting spells that help the land, and so on.
>
Perhaps treat them as shamanic adepts (instead of full shamans), so
they can *only* cast spells that fall within their totem's purview.

> > Mages of all types can astrally project in SR. Even phys ads can
> astrally
> > perceive.
>
> These are irrelevant differences, if you ask me. You're trying to compare
> different world backgrounds to each other, which won't work. What should
> be done here, I feel, is convert the rules for AD&D's reality into rules
> useable with the Shadowrun game system. Magicians having astral perception
> or not has nothing at all to do with this.
>
Yeah. If you don't want people to go astral, don't let them. You
could, for example, equate various types of AD&D magic users to various
SR adepts (and make up your own SR adepts!).

James Ojaste
Message no. 24
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:35:42 -0500
At 07:19 PM 12/2/98 +0100, you wrote:
>The SR equivalent of the traditional dungeon bash, for example, would be
>something like breaking into a corp building where it doesn't matter how
>much noise you make, so you simply shoot every security guard on sight,
>and take with you anything and everything that looks valuable.

Or going to the barrens and wiping out a street gang in cold blood and
taking their gear (those bastards!).

>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html


Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corporation
Message no. 25
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:12:06 -0500
On 2 Dec 98, at 13:29, K in the Shadows wrote:

> > If you said nothing simpler, I would agree. But better? Try Earthdawn
> > for a better fantasy setting. I only had limited exposure to it at
> > GenCon, and found it fascinating. Also, the rules are well thought out.
> >
> Beware the lure of the new and unknown Tim....

No problem, Keith. No one around here plays it, and RPG masturbation
just isn't my thing.... :)

--


=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - |"Letter writing is the only
- drekhead@***.net - | device for combining
HTML to: drekhead@********.net | solitude and good company."
ICQ - UIN 2883757 | -Lord Byron
Message no. 26
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:45:33 -0800
> Now, that's all well and good while fighting other people, and the
> demihumans also. But you'd have to go over the other AD&D monsters with a
> fine tooth comb to convert them properly, and fairly. For instance, a
> beholder could be rather tricky. What about the undead, and the cleric's
> ability to turn some of them some of the time? What about Giants, and
> Living Walls, and the Lycanthropes, Mind Flayers, or psionics? There's
> Baatezu and dragons... The list goes on. Depending on how you view them,
> the only things that are easy to convert are normal animals and dragons.
> But even then, there's many, many different types of dragons in AD&D, and
> they all have different powers than a SR dragon.
>
Actually, depending on how you thought about it...the explination of
different powers of similar creatures can have something to do with the fact
that they don't exist on the same plane. Example...in the AD&D system, an
undead critter on the prime material plane has a dual nature and certain
powers, because he is connected to the negative material plane...but take
that same undead critter, and place them on the actual negative material
plane, and their powers are not only different, but they increase. I very
much doubt that the SR world and the AD&D world exist on the same plane of
existance for the very fact that they are differnt game systems...so, a
creature that can do certain things in the AD&D realm, may not be able to do
the same things when ported over to SR because of this...just a thought.

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 27
From: Glenn Royer <groyer@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:45:55 -0500
I very
> much doubt that the SR world and the AD&D world exist on the same plane of
> existance for the very fact that they are differnt game systems...so, a
> creature that can do certain things in the AD&D realm, may not be able to do
> the same things when ported over to SR because of this...just a thought.
>
> -=Toffer=-

yes yes..!
......wasn't the inital question just conversions for AD&D things into
SR game *mechanics*??? like converting damage codes and attributes n'
game play? i think we're delving a bit too far into trying to explain
AD&D things in the SR universe, and not in the SR *system*...
-Glenn
Message no. 28
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:27:24 -0600
>> What about the undead, and the cleric's ability to turn some of
them
>> some of the time?

>Make the cleric roll an open Willpower test, and turn a number of
undead
>equal to the result. For better results, count each undead as a
number
>equal to its hit dice (so that with a result of 10 you could turn 10
>skeletons, 5 zombies, 3 shadows, or any combination that adds up to
10).


Or some other sort of contested Will vs. Cha type of test.

>> What about Giants, and Living Walls, and the Lycanthropes, Mind
Flayers,
>> or psionics? There's Baatezu and dragons... The list goes on.
>> Depending on how you view them, the only things that are easy to
convert
>> are normal animals and dragons. But even then, there's many, many
>> different types of dragons in AD&D, and they all have different
powers
>> than a SR dragon.

>The thing to do, IMO, is to convert only the things you want in your
game.
>That would mean all the PC races and equipment, but only the monsters
you
>want them to encounter and the spells and abilities they have access
to.
>If you don't want (or have) psionics in your campaign, don't convert
them
>to SR. Simple enough, I'd say.


Make them magical based abilities (such as some modified Psionic rules
floating around) or Critter abilities.

>> Mages of all types can astrally project in SR. Even phys ads can
astrally
>> perceive.

>These are irrelevant differences, if you ask me. You're trying to
compare
>different world backgrounds to each other, which won't work. What
should
>be done here, I feel, is convert the rules for AD&D's reality into
rules
>useable with the Shadowrun game system. Magicians having astral
perception
>or not has nothing at all to do with this.

I can see converting the whole magical system over. SR's whole
construct of things magical was always the best I had ever worked
with, anyway; made it as logical as possible for such a subject.

Overall, though, the beauty of the whole thing is you just convert
what you need to, don't worry about the rest until needed.

Tony Rabiola
rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
(still working on the Fifth)
Proud owner BABY #972
Message no. 29
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:12:38 -0600
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:53:52 -0600 Nexx <nexx@********.NET> writes:
>----------
>> From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
>> The original D&D was developed from wargaming, and as such lacked the
"real"
>> roleplaying that some of us enjoy... But, as you said, if I want to
run
>> around in a medieval setting bashing monsters, there's nothing better
than
>> AD&D.

There's lots of better things than AD&D :)

>Of course, if you want to run around a medieval setting, bashing
monsters
>or not, you can't beat Ars Magica...

Sure you can ... Ther's always the Rolemaster STandard System which can
adapted to any genre. :P Also, for pan-genre, there is Gurps (Olmost
typed Gurths for some reason :) or Hero/Champions.

>You know, I find it amazing that my different lists get on the same
topics
>without any nudging from me... My Ars Magica list is now talking about
>other games that are good for ArM....

That's the work of the Deep Ressonance, of course. ;P

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 30
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:24:27 -0600
----------
> From: D. Ghost <dghost@****.COM>
>
> >Of course, if you want to run around a medieval setting, bashing
> monsters
> >or not, you can't beat Ars Magica...
>
> Sure you can ... Ther's always the Rolemaster STandard System which can
> adapted to any genre. :P Also, for pan-genre, there is Gurps (Olmost
> typed Gurths for some reason :) or Hero/Champions.

I'll only play Rollmaster if I want to impale myself with a dagger while
walking at a slow pace in a brightly lit, empty room, while making 650
dice rolls to determine that I have.

> "A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire

I love that damn line...

--
Rev. Mark Hall
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
We are obligated, therefore, to spread the news, painful and bitter though
it may be for some to hear, that all living things on earth are kindred.
-Edward Abbey, _Desert Solitude_
Message no. 31
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:15:40 EST
In a message dated 12/2/1998 2:12:25 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
drekhead@***.NET writes:

>
> > Beware the lure of the new and unknown Tim....
>
> No problem, Keith. No one around here plays it, and RPG masturbation
> just isn't my thing.... :)

EWWWwww....how disgusting... ;)

-K
Message no. 32
From: Anders Swenson <anders@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:57:44 -0800
I don't want to stick my head up in a potential flame war, so I'll just
privately sugggest that you use the ADND stuff to populate mystical and
heroic magical realms that the PCs stumble into, a la Harlequin's Back
(which you need to own). --Anders

One Ronin wrote:

> Greetings all. I'm most you on this list have played AD&D before, and
> many probably know the game very intimately. I started playing AD&D
> years ago, and the setting and atmosphere is great, but I have one
> little problem.....the rules. Since getting involved with Shadowrun, I
> have come to despise the AD&D rules system. Unfortunately, I've got
> about $350 worth of AD&D books that I don't want to give/throw away, and
> I'd still like to play the game. I just can't bring myself to deal with
> those overly retarded rules. Has one ever ventured to make conversion
> rules from SR to AD&D? If so, please let me know, or give me some
> advice to steer me in the right direction. And yes, I've tried many
> other fantasy RPGs, and I am unhappy with the rules for all of them.
> SR, IMHO, has the best magic system and the best character creation
> system in an RPG to date, and I'm looking to carry that over. I'll take
> all suggestions. Thanks, guys/girls. <bows to all the veteran RPG
> gurus on the list>
>
> -Ronin
>
> What I've felt, what I've known,
> Turn the pages, turn to stone,
> Behind the door, should I open it for you?
> What I've felt, what I've known,
> Sick and tired I stand ALONE,
> Could you be there,
> Cause I'm the one who waits for you,
> Or are you Unforgiven too.....
>
> -ICQ #:11373195
>
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Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:40:38 +0100
According to Ojaste,James [NCR], at 13:30 on 2 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> > Make the cleric roll an open Willpower test, and turn a number of undead
> > equal to the result. For better results, count each undead as a number
> > equal to its hit dice (so that with a result of 10 you could turn 10
> > skeletons, 5 zombies, 3 shadows, or any combination that adds up to 10).
> >
> Why not just use a multiply-resisted test? Just like casting an area
> effect spell? Bigger nasties get more dice to resist.

Another good possibility, but one that takes more time. I was trying to
stay in the spirit of AD&D, and so denied the undead a resistance test
(hey, you could argue that, being non-living targets, they get no
resistance tests :)

> > The thing to do, IMO, is to convert only the things you want in your game.
> >
> Well, even if you want all of the dragons to appear, the SR magic
> system is flexible enough to handle most of the powers and since stuff
> like flame breath is now just "innate spellcasting"...

True. My point, though, is that if it's for your own use you don't need to
convert everything all at once. OTOH, should you plan on making your
conversions available to the general public, then you should try to be as
complete as possible, and convert the basic rulebooks (Player's Handbook,
DMG, and Monstrous Manual) completely.

> > Totem modifiers. A cleric following an agricultural god gets extra dice
> > for casting spells that help the land, and so on.
> >
> Perhaps treat them as shamanic adepts (instead of full shamans), so
> they can *only* cast spells that fall within their totem's purview.

I was more thinking of the minor and major spheres they get access to --
make the major spheres get extra dice (+2, probably), the minor spheres no
extra dice, and all the other spells get less dice (-2). Although if you
use this method, you might want to chuck the spell levels out the window,
or at least change them so that priests get to choose from all spells
regardless of the spell's level, as long as they've reached a high enough
experience level to get access to them.

> Yeah. If you don't want people to go astral, don't let them.

Exactly.

> You could, for example, equate various types of AD&D magic users to
> various SR adepts (and make up your own SR adepts!).

However, I don't really see the need to use SR terms for these things; you
could just say "Mages must have a Magic rating higher than 0 and can cast
spells and conjure elementals." Another thought just hit me, too: you
could let all magic users start out with a Magic rating of 1, and use that
as their level in AD&D for purposes of determining which spells they can
cast. You'd have to lower the cost of initiation, though, so as not make
it extremely expensive to go from Magic 1 to Magic 2.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If I had green hair, I'd dye it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 34
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 06:28:14 -0600
On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:40:38 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
<SNIP>
>Another thought just hit me, too: you
>could let all magic users start out with a Magic rating of 1, and use
that
>as their level in AD&D for purposes of determining which spells they can
>cast. You'd have to lower the cost of initiation, though, so as not make
>it extremely expensive to go from Magic 1 to Magic 2.

The base cost for Initiation in the Grimmy is (6+desired grade) why not
read that as (Starting Magic Attribute + desired grade), where Starting
Magic Attribute is the Magic Attribute you recieve automaticly for being
a Magician before modification due to cyber, bio, etc. In the above
scenario (AD&D level = Magic Level.), then the base cost for Initiation
would be (1+desired grade) and then be modified for Group or self
initiation and ordeal or no ordeal.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire

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Message no. 35
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:52:45 -0500
Nexx wrote:
> > Sure you can ... Ther's always the Rolemaster STandard System which can
> > adapted to any genre. :P Also, for pan-genre, there is Gurps (Olmost
> > typed Gurths for some reason :) or Hero/Champions.
>
> I'll only play Rollmaster if I want to impale myself with a dagger while
> walking at a slow pace in a brightly lit, empty room, while making 650
> dice rolls to determine that I have.
>
Come now, don't exagerate. It's probably only a dozen or so rolls -
well, plus the time it takes to look up the results on the "impaling
self with a dagger (recently sharpened) while walking slowly in a
brightly lit, empty room" table. :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 36
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 20:54:52 +0100
According to D. Ghost, at 6:28 on 3 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> The base cost for Initiation in the Grimmy is (6+desired grade) why not
> read that as (Starting Magic Attribute + desired grade), where Starting
> Magic Attribute is the Magic Attribute you recieve automaticly for being
> a Magician before modification due to cyber, bio, etc.

In normal SR, I would not use this rule. It means magicians who take a lot
of cyberware as part of character generation have not too much difficulty
getting their Magic rating back up to 6.

> In the above scenario (AD&D level = Magic Level.), then the base cost
> for Initiation would be (1+desired grade) and then be modified for Group
> or self initiation and ordeal or no ordeal.

For AD&D-with-SR-rules, though, it sounds good. Magicians can become
reasonably competent quickly enough (which is one of my big gripes with
AD&D, the way 1st level characters can't really do much at all), but still
take quite some time to get _really_ powerful.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If I had green hair, I'd dye it.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 37
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:55:48 -0800
> I'll only play Rollmaster if I want to impale myself with a dagger while
> walking at a slow pace in a brightly lit, empty room, while making 650
> dice rolls to determine that I have.
>
I was in the middle of a class when I read this...actually embarrised my
self from laughing so hard. :)

> > "A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire
>
> I love that damn line...
>
and then I read this line and totally lost it. :)

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 38
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:17:03 -0600
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>
> > The base cost for Initiation in the Grimmy is (6+desired grade) why
not
> > read that as (Starting Magic Attribute + desired grade), where
Starting
> > Magic Attribute is the Magic Attribute you recieve automaticly for
being
> > a Magician before modification due to cyber, bio, etc.
>
> In normal SR, I would not use this rule. It means magicians who take a
lot
> of cyberware as part of character generation have not too much
difficulty
> getting their Magic rating back up to 6.

Not really. His starting attribute was still 6, he just modified it by
cramming in the chrome. I actually like this rule, because it makes
things a little bit tougher on Shapshifter PC's (after all, they start
with an 8 Magic, so initiation is a bit more expensive for them).

--
Rev. Mark Hall
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
We are obligated, therefore, to spread the news, painful and bitter though
it may be for some to hear, that all living things on earth are kindred.
-Edward Abbey, _Desert Solitude_
Message no. 39
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: AD&D to Shadowrun.....
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:54:08 -0600
On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 20:54:52 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>According to D. Ghost, at 6:28 on 3 Dec 98, the word on
>the street was...
>
>> The base cost for Initiation in the Grimmy is (6+desired grade) why
not
>> read that as (Starting Magic Attribute + desired grade), where
Starting
>> Magic Attribute is the Magic Attribute you recieve automaticly for
being
>> a Magician before modification due to cyber, bio, etc.

>In normal SR, I would not use this rule. It means magicians who take a
lot
>of cyberware as part of character generation have not too much
difficulty
>getting their Magic rating back up to 6.

No ... You use the magic rating BEFORE cyber/bioware. In other words, if
the player decides that the character is a magician, before he/she/it
decides anything else, what is the character's magic attribute before
intitiation. So in standard SR, it would be 6 regardless of how much
cyber and bioware the character has.

>> In the above scenario (AD&D level = Magic Level.), then the base cost
>> for Initiation would be (1+desired grade) and then be modified for
Group
>> or self initiation and ordeal or no ordeal.

>For AD&D-with-SR-rules, though, it sounds good. Magicians can become
>reasonably competent quickly enough (which is one of my big gripes with
>AD&D, the way 1st level characters can't really do much at all), but
still
>take quite some time to get _really_ powerful.

Now how would you apply this to other character classes like thief, for
example, who gets that spiffy back-stabbing ability? :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire

___________________________________________________________________
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