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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Adept powers help.
Date: Tue Aug 7 06:45:04 2001
Ok everybody, I'm back, I got the books (thanks Anders!), and now we're
running.
The team consists of
a cab driver / rigger
his physad sidekick/mechanic
the troll wolf shaman
a 15-year old elf orphan sorceress with a small case of amnesia
an occasional gun-happy decker
an another unknown wild card (part time player that still needs to create a
character)

The troll, phsyad, cabby, and elf are regulars.

Here's my question:
the mechanic is a elf, (wanted speed to be able to take apart an engine in
record time)
he had a quickness 5 and bought 4 levels of enhanced quickness (so now its
7)
SR3 states that attributes enhanced through an adept's powers are considered
permanent and not augmented.
Now, when he spends Karma to increase his quickness to 6 would he have to
initiate himself to gain another power point for the power (Since anything
over racial max is 1 point instead of .5)? Or would he just spend the to
raise his quickness to 8?

This isn't a problem yet, but I'm sure it will be.

EMFA John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
"Reports of field sprits in the southwest dressed in chaps, 10-gallon hats,
and extravagant cowboy boots is yet unconfirmed"
-From SR3
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Adept powers help.
Date: Tue Aug 7 11:35:01 2001
Valeu John EMFA writes:

> he had a quickness 5 and bought 4 levels of enhanced quickness (so now its
> 7)
> SR3 states that attributes enhanced through an adept's powers are considered
> permanent and not augmented.
> Now, when he spends Karma to increase his quickness to 6 would he have to
> initiate himself to gain another power point for the power (Since anything
> over racial max is 1 point instead of .5)? Or would he just spend the to
> raise his quickness to 8?

By my reading of the rules, his Quickness is now considered to naturally be
7. When he wants to raise it, he must pay Karma to raise it to 8. This gets
a little complicated if he also wants to put more Power Points into Enhanced
Quickness. What is his Quicnkess considered to be in this circumstance?

I have a house rule that treats any and all Attribute bonuses as augmented,
rather than natural, regardless of their source (cyber, magic, bio, etc.).
This simplifies things a lot ;-).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Adept powers help.
Date: Tue Aug 7 13:35:13 2001
According to Damion Milliken, on Tue, 07 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> By my reading of the rules, his Quickness is now considered to naturally be
> 7. When he wants to raise it, he must pay Karma to raise it to 8. This gets
> a little complicated if he also wants to put more Power Points into Enhanced
> Quickness. What is his Quicnkess considered to be in this circumstance?

Since the improvement is considered natural, I'd say that every point of
Enhanced Attribute that would push the total rating (excluding modifiers
from cyberware) over the natural maximum costs double.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Adept powers help.
Date: Tue Aug 7 19:40:01 2001
<snip>

>I have a house rule that treats any and all Attribute bonuses as
>augmented,
>rather than natural, regardless of their source (cyber, magic, bio, >etc.).
>This simplifies things a lot ;-).

Ok, I like that, but what about the power? It states that if you want to go
past your racial limit (in this case 7), you pay a full point instead of
half. If he increases his stat to 6, he'll need to pay extra somewhere
along the line (can't quite figure out how much right now).
That's the problem I have. (I don't have MitS with me so I can't initiate
him.)

EMFA John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Oliver McDonald)
Subject: Adept powers help.
Date: Wed Aug 8 00:55:01 2001
On Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:41:52 -0800, Valeu John EMFA wrote:

>Here's my question:
>the mechanic is a elf, (wanted speed to be able to take apart an engine in
>record time)
>he had a quickness 5 and bought 4 levels of enhanced quickness (so now its
>7)
>SR3 states that attributes enhanced through an adept's powers are considered
>permanent and not augmented.
>Now, when he spends Karma to increase his quickness to 6 would he have to
>initiate himself to gain another power point for the power (Since anything
>over racial max is 1 point instead of .5)? Or would he just spend the to
>raise his quickness to 8?
>
>This isn't a problem yet, but I'm sure it will be.


He /she needs to spend the karma to raise his quickness to 8. Keep in mind this is over
racial max, so the rules for raising
abilities over racial max apply.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://www.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."


And remember that snowmen fall from Heaven unassembled.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Adept powers help.
Date: Thu Aug 9 05:05:00 2001
Valeu John EMFA writes:

> > I have a house rule that treats any and all Attribute bonuses as
> > augmented, rather than natural, regardless of their source (cyber, magic,
> > bio, etc.). This simplifies things a lot ;-).
>
> Ok, I like that, but what about the power? It states that if you want to go
> past your racial limit (in this case 7), you pay a full point instead of
> half. If he increases his stat to 6, he'll need to pay extra somewhere
> along the line (can't quite figure out how much right now).
> That's the problem I have. (I don't have MitS with me so I can't initiate
> him.)

Hmm, OK, I see the problem. Regardless of whether you count the adept
bonuses as natural or not, you still have a problem if the adept increases
his attribute. It might actually be more internally consistent to use the SR
rules as they are (now this really is a surprise!). The adept has a Quickness
of 5, and 2 points of Enhanced Quickness. These 2 enhanced points costed 0.5
Power Points each (right?), because they did not exceed the racial maximum
of 7 (for an Elf). Now, if we use the SR rules, the adept has to consider
these points natural, and so pays 24 karma to raise his Quickness from 7 to
8. So everything's fine and dandy. He's got points 1,2,3,4,5 naturally,
points 6,7 from magic, and point 8 naturally.

My way stuffs things up, as he raises his Quickness from 5 to 6 for 12
Karma, and then suddenly has 1.5 (not 1) Power Points worth of Enhanced
Quickness. Does he get this for free (what a bargain!), or does he have to
somehow either fork out 0.5 more Power Points, or somehow lose 0.5 Power
Points of abilities? I think that I'll have to change that house rule back
;-).

I can see a problem with the SR rule if he loses a Magic Point, and decides
to drop the 1 point worth of Enahnced Quickness. His quickness is now
naturally 6 (sheesh, he got ripped off for the sixth point :-)). Now if he
initiates and wants to buy the Enhanced Quickness power again, he'll have to
pay 1.5 Power Points (0.5 for the 7th point, and then 1 for the 8th). I
guess it sucks the big one to lose Magic :-(.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael D Fontaine)
Subject: Adept powers help.
Date: Thu Aug 9 05:35:01 2001
On Thu, 9 Aug 2001 19:01:25 +1000 (EST) Damion Milliken
<dam01@***.edu.au> writes:
> Valeu John EMFA writes:

<snip>

> > him.)
>
> Hmm, OK, I see the problem. Regardless of whether you count the
> adept
> bonuses as natural or not, you still have a problem if the adept
> increases
> his attribute. It might actually be more internally consistent to
> use the SR
> rules as they are (now this really is a surprise!). The adept has a
> Quickness
> of 5, and 2 points of Enhanced Quickness. These 2 enhanced points
> costed 0.5
> Power Points each (right?), because they did not exceed the racial
> maximum
> of 7 (for an Elf). Now, if we use the SR rules, the adept has to
> consider
> these points natural, and so pays 24 karma to raise his Quickness
> from 7 to
> 8. So everything's fine and dandy. He's got points 1,2,3,4,5
> naturally,
> points 6,7 from magic, and point 8 naturally.
>
> My way stuffs things up, as he raises his Quickness from 5 to 6 for
> 12
> Karma, and then suddenly has 1.5 (not 1) Power Points worth of
> Enhanced
> Quickness. Does he get this for free (what a bargain!), or does he
> have to
> somehow either fork out 0.5 more Power Points, or somehow lose 0.5
> Power
> Points of abilities? I think that I'll have to change that house
> rule back
> ;-).

Okay here's my view on Adept powers and Enhanced Attributes. I think you
should be able to rais the attribute regularly(eg pay for 5 to 6) but it
won't change your overall attribute until or unless you make up for the
Adept Points spent. Otherwise they are getting doubbly smacked. Smacked
once is the way too high cost of Enhanced Attribute, and then again by
having to pay through the nose to raise their Attribute with karma. Now,
that might leave you with a gap of unspent points if you say raise you
natural quickness from 5-7(being an elf you can do this) without any real
benefit. To combat this I think Adepts should be able to take as an
initation option(besides magic pornt or metamagic) the ability to
re-arrange their powers. This can only be done durring the initation, and
is in leu of any other benefit. (actually I'd like to make it in addition
to a meta magic sence Adepts get screwed with initations) Comments?

The Eggman


mike fontaine
2000-09-164

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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Adept powers help.
Date: Sat Aug 11 10:35:01 2001
Michael D Fontaine writes:

> <Snip alternative way of handling increasing Attributes with Enhanced
> Attribute Power.>

That, too, is a viable rule to use. It would make increasing an Attribute of
little value unless you also happened to be initiating or buying an extra
Power Point at the same time, though. OTOH, that's not too big a problem, I
suppose (it is, after all, a magically enhanced Attribute that the adept is
improving).

> To combat this I think Adepts should be able to take as an initation
> option(besides magic pornt or metamagic) the ability to re-arrange their
> powers. This can only be done durring the initation, and is in leu of any
> other benefit. (actually I'd like to make it in addition to a meta magic
> sence Adepts get screwed with initations) Comments?

It would seem to be a decent idea to be able to rearrange adept Powers
rather than take a metamagical ability, to me. Personally, I think it's not
entirely in the vein with the idea of an adept, but it's not exactly way
whacked in my view either :-). Normally when a magician initates, he gets an
additional Magic point, and may choose a metamagical ability or alter his
astral signature. Adding an additional option to the "metamagic or
signature" choice seems appropriate to me, as rearranging Powers is more
akin to changing an astral signature than gaining a Magic Point.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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