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Message no. 1
From: stormknight@*********.net (Stormknight)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:56:26 -0700
I know that the astral doesn't extend into space, but does that mean that magic like
adept powers don't work there either?
What about if a space station or moon colony has lots of gardens and parks and such
for oxygen development (at the very least). Would this create enough of a
"gaeaspere" or whatever you want to call it, to allow magic, even weakened, to
work?

Thanks for your thoughts,

--Wally the IntrepidFrom swiftone@********.org Tue Mar 28 21:13:23 2006
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Sanger)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:13:23 -0500
Subject: Adept powers in space?
In-Reply-To: <410-220063228205626781@*********.net>
References: <410-220063228205626781@*********.net>
Message-ID: <20060328211323.GD4557@********.org>

On Tue, Mar 28, 2006 at 01:56:26PM -0700, Stormknight wrote:
> I know that the astral doesn't extend into space, but does that
> mean that magic like adept powers don't work there either?

So long as you're only asking opinions...

I'd argue that so long as you didn't open yourself to astral space you'd
be fine. Adept powers that work on your own body would remain working.
Astral perception would work. Astral projection is a real bad idea, as
is spellcasting.

> What about if a space station or moon colony has lots of gardens
> and parks and such for oxygen development (at the very least).
> Would this create enough of a "gaeaspere" or whatever you want to
> call it, to allow magic, even weakened, to work?

Eventually, perhaps, but realize that the comparison is the entire
EARTH. A nice garden, even a big garden, isn't going to cut it.

--
SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 2
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:29:45 +1100
On 29/03/2006, at 8:13 AM, Brett Sanger wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 28, 2006 at 01:56:26PM -0700, Stormknight wrote:
>> I know that the astral doesn't extend into space, but does that
>> mean that magic like adept powers don't work there either?
>
> So long as you're only asking opinions...
>
> I'd argue that so long as you didn't open yourself to astral space
> you'd
> be fine. Adept powers that work on your own body would remain
> working.
> Astral perception would work. Astral projection is a real bad
> idea, as
> is spellcasting.

So you consider Adept powers in a different realm to spells ? That is
what are you tapping into when you "activate" your adept powers ? Is
it "all inside you" and you are just manifesting your internal
powers ? Or are you taping into the "mana" of Astral space, but
instead of casting the spell outwards you are casting it inwards ?
Lack of Astral to me means lack of the substance of magic i.e. mana,
so if you play that Adpets "create" their own mana then yes they can
use their powers in space. If however you believe that they use
external mana, I would say no they can't use their powers in space.
Message no. 3
From: lrdslvrhnd@*****.com (Kevin McB)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:41:36 -0500
On 3/28/06, Brett Sanger <swiftone@********.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2006 at 01:56:26PM -0700, Stormknight wrote:
> > I know that the astral doesn't extend into space, but does that
> > mean that magic like adept powers don't work there either?
>
> So long as you're only asking opinions...
>
> I'd argue that so long as you didn't open yourself to astral space you'd
> be fine. Adept powers that work on your own body would remain working.
> Astral perception would work. Astral projection is a real bad idea, as
> is spellcasting.


I'd go so far as to say that only permanently active ones such as sense
enhancements, Improved Attribute, etc. work properly. Powers you have to
activate (Killing Hands, Attribute Boost, etc) might be a little... wonky.
I say this because the permanent ones more or less physically change the
person's body, changing the rods and cones, sharpening the scent receptors,
firing neurons differently, whatever, while the others you kind of have to
'tap into', so to speak, the same energies as a magician, just maybe not
quite so overtly. Of course, that all depends on how Killing Hands works,
but I always imagined that it was along the same line as spells, merging
auras and whatnot, as you have to specifically say you're doing Stun or
Physical damage. And of course, Attribute Boost has that whole drain thing
going, even though it meets the "only works on your own body" criteria...
you have to MAKE it happen. IMHO, while Astral Perception *might* work
(also IMHO, I don't think so), I'd think that it would be as bad an idea as
Projection and quite possibly cause insanity.

> What about if a space station or moon colony has lots of gardens
> > and parks and such for oxygen development (at the very least).
> > Would this create enough of a "gaeaspere" or whatever you want to
> > call it, to allow magic, even weakened, to work?
>
> Eventually, perhaps, but realize that the comparison is the entire
> EARTH. A nice garden, even a big garden, isn't going to cut it.


It would have to be a fraggin' LOT of biosphere going, and I wouldn't think
that the effects would last very far outside of the park itself, and be
rather limited within . Now, if the station had vines and stuff growing
along all the walls and ceilings, that might work, in a weakened state (say,
25%, which would probably be about the same as in a park) I'm not at all
sure that hydroponics/aeroponics would do the trick... would need to be an
honest-to-Whatever dirt plot, IMHO. Gots ta have all the bugs and microbes
and worms and whatnot *g*

Kevin
Message no. 4
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Sanger)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 17:05:25 -0500
On Wed, Mar 29, 2006 at 08:29:45AM +1100, Owen McKerrow wrote:
> Lack of Astral to me means lack of the substance of magic i.e. mana,
> so if you play that Adpets "create" their own mana then yes they can
> use their powers in space. If however you believe that they use
> external mana, I would say no they can't use their powers in space.

See, I agree with everything you said, EXCEPT:

1) Adepts don't necessarily get to "turn powers off".
2) The process of touch the astral plane when there isn't one has been
compared to putting a hole in a balloon.
3) Adepts aren't forbidden from travelling into space (and don't go
"mental deflate" when they do).

Ergo Adept power necessarily don't tap into astral space as spells do.

That leaves 2 alternatives:
1) Adepts' connection to astral isn't as violent as spellcasters. As a
result, their powers stop working, but they suffer no other negatives.
2) Adepts' powers come more from themselves then the exterior astral
space, and they can continue to work.

I went with #2 as a matter of convenience over anything else.

--
SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 5
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Sanger)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 17:07:21 -0500
On Tue, Mar 28, 2006 at 04:41:36PM -0500, Kevin McB wrote:
> I'd go so far as to say that only permanently active ones such as sense
> enhancements, Improved Attribute, etc. work properly.

I'd buy that without complaint.
--
SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 6
From: zebulingod@*****.com (Zebulin M)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:03:13 -0800
On 3/28/06, Stormknight <stormknight@*********.net> wrote:
>
> I know that the astral doesn't extend into space, but does that mean
> that magic like adept powers don't work there either?
> What about if a space station or moon colony has lots of gardens and
> parks and such for oxygen development (at the very least). Would this create
> enough of a "gaeaspere" or whatever you want to call it, to allow magic,
> even weakened, to work?
>
> Thanks for your thoughts,
>
> --Wally the Intrepid
>

I'd say emphatically no. There's no magic, so nothing magical would work,
period, end of story.

Zebulin
Message no. 7
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 15:03:10 -0700
On 3/28/06, Brett Sanger <swiftone@********.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2006 at 04:41:36PM -0500, Kevin McB wrote:
> > I'd go so far as to say that only permanently active ones such as sense
> > enhancements, Improved Attribute, etc. work properly.
>
> I'd buy that without complaint.

Ditto that.

--
-Graht
Message no. 8
From: hangfire@*****.com (Hangfire)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 23:06:50 +0100
SSdtIHRlbXB0ZWQgbW9yZSBhbG9uZyB0aGUgbGluZXMgb2YgemlwIHplcm8gYW5kIG5hZGEgbWFn
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bGluCg==From hangfire@*****.com Tue Mar 28 22:07:54 2006
From: hangfire@*****.com (Hangfire)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 23:07:54 +0100
Subject: Adept powers in space?
In-Reply-To: <363ee9990603281406l1a95e0e0mba36bd3be3fb82a@****.gmail.com>
References: <410-220063228205626781@*********.net>
<20060328211323.GD4557@********.org>
<92fd97fc0603281341t5bf03088x718c4d6b7efd3071@****.gmail.com>
<20060328220721.GH4557@********.org>
<f52573400603281403j1522c981wdada95c34661c414@****.gmail.com>
<363ee9990603281406l1a95e0e0mba36bd3be3fb82a@****.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <363ee9990603281407t76c3a8a1r530179d339ee7c54@****.gmail.com>

SG9sZCBvbiBJIGp1c3QgcmVtZW1iZXJlZCBzb21ldHJoaW5nIHdhc24ndCB0aGVyZSBhIFRvbSBE
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ZSB0aGlzIHJpZ2h0CgotIEpvc2VmIFN0YWxpbgo=From flakjacket@***********.com Tue Mar 28
23:03:17 2006
From: flakjacket@***********.com (Simon Nixon)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:03:17 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
In-Reply-To: <363ee9990603281407t76c3a8a1r530179d339ee7c54@****.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060328230317.73329.qmail@********.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hangfire wrote:

> Hold on I just remembered sometrhing wasn't there a
> Tom Dowd short story
> about some mage who had apparently learned how to
> function in space? It was
> involving an insect spirit and impersonating damien
> knight... memory is
> fuzzy...

I think you mean the little piece called 'Hunter and
Prey'. IIRC it was done as part of several promotional
fliers FASA gave out.

http://hlair.dumpshock.com/ficshow.php?code=hnp&chapter=1&of=1

The general jist was that Ares had been sending mages
up to get accustomed to working in orbit and the warp
then when they came back down into a more mana-rich
environment they'd be able to work magic easier. It's
a bit like the theory where sportsmen train at higher
altitudes before competing at sea level. There have
also been a couple of oblique mentions of something
like this in the sourcebooks as well IIRC.

Personally I just chalk it up to artistic license on
the part of Mr Dowd. MitS sets of how magic works, or
doesn't, in space and is muc more recent.

Simon
Message no. 9
From: flakjacket@***********.com (Simon Nixon)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:09:40 +0100 (BST)
Stormknight wrote:

> What about if a space station or moon colony has
> lots of gardens and parks and such for oxygen
> development (at the very least). Would this create
> enough of a "gaeaspere" or whatever you want to call
> it, to allow magic, even weakened, to work?

Well Target: Wastelands mentions that a couple of the
largest space stations with a big enough population do
bring the mana warp down ever so slightly. The
standard vacuum of space is a force 10 mana warp and
these stations are able to reduce that to a level 9,
or possibly even level 8 mana warp if you're lucky -
for comparison the moon is apparently a rating 8 mana
wapr.

Simon
Message no. 10
From: flakjacket@***********.com (Simon Nixon)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:15:38 +0100 (BST)
Brett Sanger wrote:

> 1) Adepts don't necessarily get to "turn powers
> off".

Well they /kind/ of get to. When you have more points
of adept powers than compared to your magic attribute
then you can't run them all at once so you have to
decide which ones to use, and which to 'switch off' as
it were. This to me suggests that adepts should be
able to have control over their powers. At least most
groups I've played with always allowed you to turn
them on and off with a free action like with
cyberware. But that's our games so take it with a
pinch of salt. :)

Simon
Message no. 11
From: flakjacket@***********.com (Simon Nixon)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:21:17 +0100 (BST)
Stormknight wrote:

> I know that the astral doesn't extend into
> space, but does that mean that magic like adept
> powers don't work there either?

And I just realised I never actually answered the
original question. :) In my opinion adept powers are
magical and work off of mana. No mana equals no adept
powers. ven the inherent ones like attribute boost or
improved senses. If you burn out and loose all your
magic and connection to the mana then they'd go away
as well, likewise when a manawarp imposes a temporary
block they turn off as well. I suppose you could try
to work around the mana warp but you'd have to be
pretty luckyand roll some hefty numbers from what I
recall of the TN's.

Simon
Message no. 12
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:30:16 +1100
On 29/03/2006, at 10:21 AM, Simon Nixon wrote:

> Stormknight wrote:
>
>> I know that the astral doesn't extend into
>> space, but does that mean that magic like adept
>> powers don't work there either?
>
> And I just realised I never actually answered the
> original question. :) In my opinion adept powers are
> magical and work off of mana. No mana equals no adept
> powers. ven the inherent ones like attribute boost or
> improved senses. If you burn out and loose all your
> magic and connection to the mana then they'd go away
> as well, likewise when a manawarp imposes a temporary
> block they turn off as well. I suppose you could try
> to work around the mana warp but you'd have to be
> pretty luckyand roll some hefty numbers from what I
> recall of the TN's.

Good point. If you say that Adepts can use there powers in space
which they "can't" turn off. Then do they get to use them without
penalty ? Switch that back to any old normal mana warp. How do you
play that situation ? Can adepts use their powers there as well ? Do
you make them suffer the same effects as magicians ? Or can adepts
use there powers in mana warps with no hassles what so ever ? If so
that is a HUGE advantage, indeed I would go so far as to call it
broken, if you played that way.
Message no. 13
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:07:05 +0000
On Tue, Mar 28, 2006 at 04:41:36PM -0500, Kevin McB wrote:
>
> I'd go so far as to say that only permanently active ones such as sense
> enhancements, Improved Attribute, etc. work properly. Powers you have to
> activate (Killing Hands, Attribute Boost, etc) might be a little... wonky.
> I say this because the permanent ones more or less physically change the
> person's body, changing the rods and cones, sharpening the scent receptors,
> firing neurons differently, whatever, while the others you kind of have to
> 'tap into', so to speak, the same energies as a magician, just maybe not
> quite so overtly.

I'm surprised so many people have accepted this argument. Is there *any* canon reference
that says physical adept powers represent a physical change? I certainly don't know of
any. I always envisioned them as, well, magical in nature. Having magically improved
vision doesn't mean that your eyes are any different, even if it is active all the time.
If it was a physical change then how come magic loss can cause such powers to be lost?

I am definitely of the opinion that physad powers just stop working in space. As long as
the adept doesn't actively try to use them they shouldn't suffer any long-term effects,
but the powers shouldn't work either.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 14
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:13:29 +1100
On 29/03/2006, at 11:07 AM, David Kettler wrote:

> I'm surprised so many people have accepted this argument. Is there
> *any* canon reference that says physical adept powers represent a
> physical change? I certainly don't know of any. I always
> envisioned them as, well, magical in nature. Having magically
> improved vision doesn't mean that your eyes are any different, even
> if it is active all the time. If it was a physical change then how
> come magic loss can cause such powers to be lost?

Exactly. This is also what I was alluding to with my Mana Warp email.
Message no. 15
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:52:40 +0200
According to Owen McKerrow, on 29-3-06 08:29:45AM +1100 the word on the
street was...

> Lack of Astral to me means lack of the substance of magic i.e. mana,
> so if you play that Adpets "create" their own mana then yes they can
> use their powers in space. If however you believe that they use
> external mana, I would say no they can't use their powers in space.

I took the liberty of looking up the rules for magic in space in Target:
Wastelands, and it says that space is a mana warp with background count
10; big space stations etc. may be as low as 9 or even 8.

The rules for mana warps in SR3 (p. 85, MITS) state that a magician's
Magic rating is reduced when the background count goes over 5. They also
say that adepts can use powers, but only as long as the combined cost of
the powers used simultaneously is not greater than the adept's adjusted
Magic rating.

Now, since space has an average background count of 10, with its
associated Magic reduction of -12 (-6 at the best of times, in BC 8),
that means very few adepts will be able to use any powers whatsoever :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Voorlopig gaan we nog even door
Op het lichtend pad, het verkeerde spoor
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:38:53 -0700
On 3/29/06, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
> I took the liberty of looking up the rules for magic in space in Target:
> Wastelands, and it says that space is a mana warp with background count
> 10; big space stations etc. may be as low as 9 or even 8.
>
> The rules for mana warps in SR3 (p. 85, MITS) state that a magician's
> Magic rating is reduced when the background count goes over 5. They also
> say that adepts can use powers, but only as long as the combined cost of
> the powers used simultaneously is not greater than the adept's adjusted
> Magic rating.
>
> Now, since space has an average background count of 10, with its
> associated Magic reduction of -12 (-6 at the best of times, in BC 8),
> that means very few adepts will be able to use any powers whatsoever :)

Gurth, you gotta add "Shadowrun Guru" back in to your sig :)

--
-Graht
Message no. 17
From: grossfuerst@***.de (Lars)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:39:34 +0200
>Gurth, you gotta add "Shadowrun Guru" back in to your sig :)

His SearchFu is strong. :)

Lars
Message no. 18
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:47:21 -0600
>> Gurth, you gotta add "Shadowrun Guru" back in to your sig :)
>
> His SearchFu is strong. :)
>
> Lars
>
I'll place bets on he typed Cmd+Space and then entered "Mana Warp" into the
spotlight box that popped up, and then followed the leads....or, just
remembered what books mentioned what....

D
Message no. 19
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 19:03:08 +0200
According to Graht, on 29-3-06 17:38 the word on the street was...

> Gurth, you gotta add "Shadowrun Guru" back in to your sig :)

What, for using common sense and looking up if there's an existing rule
instead of trying to work out complicated solutions first? ;)


According to Derek Hyde, on 29-3-06 17:47 the word on the street was...

> I'll place bets on he typed Cmd+Space and then entered "Mana Warp" into the
> spotlight box that popped up

You can transfer the money you just lost to account number 3383927 ...
:) Trying it now, out of curiosity, a Spotlight search does get me 74
hits, but none of them from T:W or MITS, seeing as how I don't have
PDF's of those books.

> ....or, just remembered what books mentioned what....

That's the way I got that nomination for Unofficial SR Guru, and what
was good enough ten years ago is good enough now, too ...! ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Voorlopig gaan we nog even door
Op het lichtend pad, het verkeerde spoor
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 20:10:28 -0400
At 10:52 AM 3/29/2006 +0200, you wrote:
>According to Owen McKerrow, on 29-3-06 08:29:45AM +1100 the word on the
>street was...

>> Lack of Astral to me means lack of the substance of magic i.e. mana,
>> so if you play that Adpets "create" their own mana then yes they can
>> use their powers in space. If however you believe that they use
>> external mana, I would say no they can't use their powers in space.
>
>I took the liberty of looking up the rules for magic in space in Target:
>Wastelands, and it says that space is a mana warp with background count
>10; big space stations etc. may be as low as 9 or even 8.
>
>The rules for mana warps in SR3 (p. 85, MITS) state that a magician's
>Magic rating is reduced when the background count goes over 5. They also
>say that adepts can use powers, but only as long as the combined cost of
>the powers used simultaneously is not greater than the adept's adjusted
>Magic rating.
>
>Now, since space has an average background count of 10, with its
>associated Magic reduction of -12 (-6 at the best of times, in BC 8),
>that means very few adepts will be able to use any powers whatsoever :)

That's exactly what I did when the team was on a suborbital to Germany
and had a run-in with hijackers. Just what the hijackers would do with
what is basically an ICBM is anyone's guess...

--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 21
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Adept powers in space?
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 12:40:50 +0100
At 21:56 28/03/2006, you wrote:
> I know that the astral doesn't extend into space, but does that
> mean that magic like adept powers don't work there either?
> What about if a space station or moon colony has lots of
> gardens and parks and such for oxygen development (at the very
> least). Would this create enough of a "gaeaspere" or whatever you
> want to call it, to allow magic, even weakened, to work?

AFAIK The lack of manasphere doesn't interfere with magic itself -
the problem occurs with trying to see the astral outside it (leading
as I recall to complete loss of the individual concerned's mind)
I don't recall restrictions of the use of magic in the semi ballistic
which takes the 'runners to the Black Forest in Harlequin.
Therefore it is only the dual natured who need really worry - and
anyone stupid enough to have an astral perception geas :-)


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Version: 3.12
GE d++(---) s++: a->? C++(+) US++ P! L E? W++ N o? K? w+ O! M- V? PS+
PE-() Y PGP? t+@ 5++ X- R+>+++$>* tv b+++ DI++++ D+ G++ e+ h r* y+>+++++
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GCC0.2: y75>?.uk[NN] G87 S@:@@[SR] B+++ f+ RM(RR) rm++ rr++ l++(--)
m- w s+(+++) GM+++(-) A GS+(-) h++ LA+++ CG--- F c+

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Adept powers in space?, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!