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Message no. 1
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@***.IM.MED.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:28:03 -0400
I seem to have a problem in figuring out which types of Adepts are
allowed to initiate (SRII rules). Also, if they are allowed to
initiate, do they just not have access to any astrally-induced
abilities? (anything that has to be activated while on the astral)

Thanks :)

Justin :)
Message no. 2
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:57:31 -0400
>>>>> "Justin" == Justin Pinnow
<jpinnow@***.IM.MED.UMICH.EDU> writes:

Justin> I seem to have a problem in figuring out which types of Adepts
Justin> are allowed to initiate (SRII rules).

All magically active characters, adepts and full mages, may initiate.

Justin> Also, if they are allowed to initiate, do they just not have
Justin> access to any astrally-induced abilities? (anything that has to
Justin> be activated while on the astral)

Right. A general rule of thumb is, if the mage doesn't have an ability
that builds on a non-metamagical ability (spell defense -> shielding is
an obvious one for Physical Adepts, as is spell casting -> quickening &
anchoring for Conjuring Adepts), they don't get the abilities. They
still get the additional Magic Rating points, which is about the only
reason that a Physical or Conjuring Adept would want to Initiate
(remember, a mage's Magic Rating is a spirit's T# for banishing tests).
Most of the metamagical abilities aren't available to non-spellcasters.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | of skin.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 3
From: Sebastian Vilstrup <vilstrup@*****.IHI.KU.DK>
Subject: Re: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 22:57:20 +0200
On Wed, 10 May 1995, Justin Pinnow wrote:

> I seem to have a problem in figuring out which types of Adepts are
> allowed to initiate (SRII rules). Also, if they are allowed to
> initiate, do they just not have access to any astrally-induced
> abilities? (anything that has to be activated while on the astral)
>

All adepts are allowed to initiates, but most of them are restricted.
Sorceror adepts can use shielding, since they have a sorcery skill and
magic pool, but they can't use centering, since they can't see the aura
in astral space. I think they get masking and quickening, though i'm not
sure about quickening (I don't have my books handy) - astral space again.
Conjurer adepts don't get much. Since they basically only get masking,
I think it's fair to give the ability to go to the appropriate metaplane
of their to-be-summoned spirit/elemental. No shielding, centering, quickening
Shamanic and elemental adepts get the best of both worlds (well, some
of the best anyway) they get it all.
Phys.ads go by the rules in the 2nd.ed. magic book

Hope it helps - Sebastian
Message no. 4
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 17:05:44 -0400
>
> I seem to have a problem in figuring out which types of Adepts are
> allowed to initiate (SRII rules). Also, if they are allowed to
> initiate, do they just not have access to any astrally-induced
> abilities? (anything that has to be activated while on the astral)
>
> Thanks :)
>
> Justin :)
>

If I remember correctly, any magically active character can become an
initiate. It doesn't matter whether he is an adept or a full-blown
magician. However, there are several types of adepts for which initiation
has little to no use as they cannot assense or project and pretty most
metamagic requires the ability to do so. For example, there is little
reason for an enchanter to initiate and the only real benefit a conjuror
recieves is the boosted magic for use in banishing.

______________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Nexx Many-Scars nexx@********.net
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:23:09 -0500
This may be a matter of a massive "DUH" but it just occurred to me that it
is actually more cost-effective for an Adept to initiate at least one level
before bothering to buy Power Points. Cool.


*****
Nexx Many-Scars
aka Mark Hall
*
Three hateful things in speech: stiffness, obscurity, a bad delivery.
*
http://www-personal.interkan.net/~nexx/mainpage.html
-Last Update: 2-5-99
Message no. 6
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:32:21 -0500
:This may be a matter of a massive "DUH" but it just occurred to me that it
:is actually more cost-effective for an Adept to initiate at least one level
:before bothering to buy Power Points. Cool.


Bingo. And with a group and ordeals, it can remain cheaper up to grade
7! However, and adept may WANT to keep their magic rating low, because it
is easier to loose magic points when your magic rating is very high; that
could (maybe) make the 20 karma per power point price worth it even when
initiation is cheaper.

Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: Veskrashen veskrashen@*******.com
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:50:49 -1000
Another question along this thread: when an adept initiates and chooses
to grab another power point rather than an initiate ability, does that
mean that he gets two points of powers? If so, does that mean that a
magician adept can advance in magic power twice as fast as a regular
mage?

Veskrashen
Message no. 8
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:25:05 -0500
:Another question along this thread: when an adept initiates and chooses
:to grab another power point rather than an initiate ability, does that
:mean that he gets two points of powers?

Adepts get a power point "free" with the magic increase for intiating
(so if the remove a geas, they don't get it; not sure if they can remove
geas, though). They would only NOT be able to learn metamagic if they
decided to change thier signature (maybe a good idea, if they use "killing
hands" carelessly).

: If so, does that mean that a
:magician adept can advance in magic power twice as fast as a regular
:mage?


Unlike normal adepts "magican adepts" ARE forced to choose. Just
because a magician adpets magic rating went up, would not mean thier :magic
power" did- they would still have the smae rating for "active" magic. The
would have to spend a power point to increase "magical power" if they wanted
to, say, cast higher force spells. However, thier "normal" magic rating
would be used for things like warding and astral combat, as well as
determining the rating limits on any adept powers they had.

Mongoose
Message no. 9
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@****.com
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 05:42:05 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Veskrashen <veskrashen@*******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Adepts and Initiation


> Another question along this thread: when an adept initiates and chooses
> to grab another power point rather than an initiate ability, does that
> mean that he gets two points of powers? If so, does that mean that a
> magician adept can advance in magic power twice as fast as a regular
> mage?
Humm I did notice that Magician Adept was clearly NOT MENTIONED. :) Prolly
too many loopholes for that class. :) I like the idea of two power
points per initiate grade... Ooo... that makes becomeing a Kick Booty
Adept SOOO much cooler! :) Here I come reaction!! And Stealth.. and
Athletics... and and and... <I really need to reread if that is the case..
Rubbing hands together... this better not be a tease!>
>
> Veskrashen

Grimlakin
Imagine the possibilities!!
Message no. 10
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@****.com
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 05:47:16 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 1999 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: Adepts and Initiation


>
>
>
> :Another question along this thread: when an adept initiates and chooses
> :to grab another power point rather than an initiate ability, does that
> :mean that he gets two points of powers?
>
> Adepts get a power point "free" with the magic increase for intiating
> (so if the remove a geas, they don't get it; not sure if they can remove
> geas, though). They would only NOT be able to learn metamagic if they
> decided to change thier signature (maybe a good idea, if they use "killing
> hands" carelessly).
>
> : If so, does that mean that a
> :magician adept can advance in magic power twice as fast as a regular
> :mage?
>
>
> Unlike normal adepts "magican adepts" ARE forced to choose. Just
> because a magician adpets magic rating went up, would not mean thier
:magic
> power" did- they would still have the smae rating for "active" magic.
The
> would have to spend a power point to increase "magical power" if they
wanted
> to, say, cast higher force spells. However, thier "normal" magic rating
> would be used for things like warding and astral combat, as well as
> determining the rating limits on any adept powers they had.
Ok I really need to get my book out of my car.. but here is what I am
seeing now...

Adept Mungo a cat shamanic adept is intiating and has never bought a power
point.
lvl1 1 mp + 1pp = 2 total pp right?
m2 1mp + Masking = 1 pp right?

IE said adept would have an additional three total powerpoints.. IE three
new points worth of adept powers he could buy even though he only raised his
Magic score by two?? Am I reading that correctly? Kinda cool actually..
adepts will bever be able to posess someone but they can kick their booty!
:)

> Mongoose

Grimlakin
Who really does hope he is correct!!
Message no. 11
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:09:51 -0500
:Ok I really need to get my book out of my car.. but here is what I am
:seeing now...
:
:Adept Mungo a cat shamanic adept is intiating and has never bought a power
:point.
:lvl1 1 mp + 1pp = 2 total pp right?
:m2 1mp + Masking = 1 pp right?

What do you mean "cat shamanic adept"? And that notation is confusing
me, badly.
If she is a normal adept who follows the totemic way, the normal result
is that when she intiaties her magic would increase by one (which does NOT
affect her adept powers, except indirectly), she would have a new power
point to spend on buying powers, and she could learn a metamagic technique.
This is explained on p. 58 of MITS- the particuallay salient poertion is the
paragrapgh headed "magic increase"- its the ONLY place it is mantioned that
intiation allows adepts to buy more adept powers, and it makes it pretty
clear they get AN additional point.
If she is a (proprity A) follower of "the magicians way", intiating
would increase her mgaic rating, but NOT her magical power rating. She
could forgo the chance to learn a metamagical technique, and instead buy a
power point worth of adept powers. That power point COULD be spent on
"magical power", which would improve her use of "active" magic. If
she
learned a metamagic technique, her general magic rating would increase
(useful for warding and astral combat, if nothing else), but she would gain
no power points, and thus could not raise her "magical power" rating, which
is the rating used in things like sorcery and conjouring. This is detailed
on p. 23-24, with intiation specifiacally detailed on p.24.


:IE said adept would have an additional three total powerpoints.. IE three
:new points worth of adept powers he could buy even though he only raised
his
:Magic score by two?? Am I reading that correctly? Kinda cool actually..
:adepts will bever be able to posess someone but they can kick their booty!

Well, they can still be VERY powerful (adept powers like "improved
ability" and "improved physical attributte" are a bargain compared to using
karma to increase skills and attributtes), but no, I think they get one
power point per level, max.

:Grimlakin
:Who really does hope he is correct!!


Mongoose
Who could maybe be wrong, but thinks that Grimlakin is hoping for a bit to
much.
Message no. 12
From: Veskrashen veskrashen@*******.com
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:25:28 -1000
Mongoose wrote:
>
> :Another question along this thread: when an adept initiates and chooses
> :to grab another power point rather than an initiate ability, does that
> :mean that he gets two points of powers?
>
> Adepts get a power point "free" with the magic increase for intiating
> (so if the remove a geas, they don't get it; not sure if they can remove
> geas, though). They would only NOT be able to learn metamagic if they
> decided to change thier signature (maybe a good idea, if they use "killing
> hands" carelessly).
>
> : If so, does that mean that a
> :magician adept can advance in magic power twice as fast as a regular
> :mage?
>
> Unlike normal adepts "magican adepts" ARE forced to choose. Just
> because a magician adpets magic rating went up, would not mean thier :magic
> power" did- they would still have the smae rating for "active" magic.
The
> would have to spend a power point to increase "magical power" if they
wanted
> to, say, cast higher force spells. However, thier "normal" magic rating
> would be used for things like warding and astral combat, as well as
> determining the rating limits on any adept powers they had.
>
> Mongoose

Ok, here is where i have trouble with that argument. Yes, i realize that
a Magician Adept's magical power does not go up automatically with his
magic rating. I also understand that an adept of whatever path or
following gets to choose 1 point of powers for every point of magic they
have, including an additional point when their magic goes up when they
initiate. They have the option of choosing to take an additional point's
worth of adept powers when they initiate, rather than learn a
metamagical technique or change their signature or drop a geas. What I
noticed, however, is that Magical Power is listed as an adept ability
with a cost of 1, which MUST be purchased at character creation if the
character wishes to have it at all. Now, this can mean two things: 1)
the magical power is fixed, never increasing; or 2) the Magician Adept
must buy additional points of Magical Power using power points like
normal adepts. I think 2 is correct, and that the proviso of not being
able to buy power points with karma was put in to prevent them from
gaining in magical power without having to go to the trouble of
initiating. However, the rub is this: if 2 is correct, a Magician Adept
can initiate, get 1 point of powers from the magic increase, and choose
to take ANOTHER point of powers rather than any of the other goodies. If
this is the case, there is nothing preventing him from buying 2 points
worth of the Magical Power adept ability. Which means that he can,
indeed, advance in magical power twice as fast as a normal magician.
Granted, he has to forfeit any of the other benefits of initiation, but
the idea of a grade 3 Magician Adept initiate with Increased Reflexes 3
and Magical Power 7 is kinda scary...

Veskrashen.
Message no. 13
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:30:43 -0700
Ok, maybe I'm different, but all you people who are reading MitS and
getting this two points of powers for adepts who initiate are wrong, at
least from what I see. The intent, and spirit, and it looks to me like the
letter of the law is that adepts get one, count 'em, ONE point of power
when they initiate. A full magician gets one point of power and a
metamagic ability. A magician adept gets either one point of power, which
he can spend on more adept abilities, including the 'magician' ability, or
he can choose to learn a metamagic ability. He does NOT get both, nor does
he get two power points.

Show me where it says different than this. As I read it, it does not.

Dave
Message no. 14
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:20:58 -0500
:Ok, here is where i have trouble with that argument. Yes, i realize that
:a Magician Adept's magical power does not go up automatically with his
:magic rating. I also understand that an adept of whatever path or
:following gets to choose 1 point of powers for every point of magic they
:have, including an additional point when their magic goes up when they
:initiate. They have the option of choosing to take an additional point's
:worth of adept powers when they initiate, rather than learn a
:metamagical technique or change their signature or drop a geas.

The option of gaining a power point instead of a metamagic technique
applies ONLY to adepts on the magicians path, not for normal adepts, afaik.
Also, I thought for those characters forgoing the chance to learn metamagic
is the ONLY way to gain a power point, but this may be wrong.
Indeed, they might get that "first" power point as all normal adepts do,
being (by most indications) a subclass of adept. However, as I note below,
it does not seem unbalancing. I honestly am at a loss for which is the
"intended" rule, but by the language of the rules, it does seem magician
adepts (being, in fact, a sub class of adepts) get a power point with each
initiation to spend as they choose, and may (as a special option) forgo
learning metamagic in favor of gaining another power point beyond that.
However, normal adepts are always "stuck" with (at best) 1power point
and a metamagic technique per grade, as I read it.

:a Magician Adept
:can initiate, get 1 point of powers from the magic increase, and choose
:to take ANOTHER point of powers rather than any of the other goodies. If
:this is the case, there is nothing preventing him from buying 2 points
:worth of the Magical Power adept ability.

Nothing it seems, except eventually his actual magic rating.

: Which means that he can,
:indeed, advance in magical power twice as fast as a normal magician.
:Granted, he has to forfeit any of the other benefits of initiation, but
:the idea of a grade 3 Magician Adept initiate with Increased Reflexes 3
:and Magical Power 7 is kinda scary...
:
:Veskrashen.

A grade 3 mage with 3 metamagic powers and a magic rating of 9 is also
rather scary!
[same creation cost and karma...]
As you noticed (I assume, given your example), their "magical power"
rating, being an adept power, can not ever exceed their base magic rating.
So given your interpretation, by forgoing a few metamagic techniques they
can fairly quickly "fill up" their "magic power"- which makes sense,
if they
are ignoring metamagic in an attempt to gain more "normal" magic. Then they
would be as "powerful" as a normal mage- while the mage will always have
astral perception, projection, and the metamagic, the "magician adept" will
have some adept powers (maybe including astral perception).
After that point, there's no purpose to the magician adept NOT
learning metamagic, since they can't raise "magic power" higher than magic
rating. Sounds fair to me, and that very well COULD be what was
intended. I may have misread (and my MiTS is packed for moving now, so I
can't check).
For example, after forgoing all metamagic through 5 initiations, the
magician adept in your example could have Magic 11, "Magic Power" 11, and
increased reflexes 3. He'd have spent his 6 initial power points, plus 10
more. If he initiated again, there would be no point in NOT learning
metamagic, unless he just wanted some more "normal" adept powers (which, I'd
guess, would be why they would be allowed to gain a power point instead
learning metamagic- they can focus on their adept abilities instead of
active
magic). Yes, he'd be nasty- but nastier than a mage with a magic of 11 and
5 metamagic techniques? And would learning more adept powers after that
offset the penalty of NOT learning metamagic (or not raising "magic power)?
I suppose this might let magician adepts become "super adepts", if they
focussed on adept powers to the exclusion of all else, but they would risk
loosing their "magic power" eventually if it was not raised, and so forth-
and they would ignore metamagic, which is pretty handy even for normal
adepts. The priority A cost would also give them a slow start compared to
normal adepts.
I guess they do get a lot of options, but I don't think any of those
options are inherently better than the ones a "normal" mage gets. I am, in
fact, rather suprised a normal adept is NOT offered the same option, seeing
as they have a limited range of metamagical techniques to choose form.

Mongoose
Message no. 15
From: Razors Edge. razrzedge@*****.com
Subject: Adepts and Initiation
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:35:01 -0700 (PDT)
>Ok, maybe I'm different, but all you people who are
>reading MitS and getting this two points of powers
>for adepts who initiate are wrong, at least from what
>I see. The intent, and spirit, and it looks to me
>like the letter of the law is that adepts get one,
>count 'em, ONE point of power when they initiate. A
>full magician gets one point of power and a
>metamagic ability. A magician adept gets either one
>point of power, which he can spend on more adept
>abilities, including the 'magician' ability, or he
>can choose to learn a metamagic ability. He does NOT
>get both, nor does he get two power points.
>
>Show me where it says different than this. As I read
>it, it does not.
>
>Dave

Perfectly correct, IMHO.


--- Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.com> wrote:
>
>The option of gaining a power point instead of a
>metamagic technique applies ONLY to adepts on the
>magicians path, not for normal adepts, afaik.
>Also, I thought for those characters forgoing the
>chance to learn metamagic is the ONLY way to gain a
>power point, but this may be wrong.

This seems correct MitS p.24:
Magician Adepts may not purchase power points with
karma, as other adepts can (p.168, SR3). If a
magician adept initiates, she can choose to either
gain an extra power point or learn a metamagical
technique. Magicians adepts are capable of learning
any of the metamagical techniques.

It does not say in ADDITION to the new magic point
gained. Neither does it say that this power point
REPLACES the Meta Mag technique. It says they may
either gain a power point/ magic point (this is the
same thing) OR a Metamag technique.

Also notice that Magician adepts may not attempt to
throw off a gesa or change their astral signature. A
subtle but important limitation.

--- Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.com> wrote:
>Indeed, they might get that "first" power point as
>all normal adepts do, being (by most indications) a
>subclass of adept.

I doubt this is the case. The book would have said "in
addition to the standard adept initiation rules,
Magician adepts gains..."

Just some Ideas.

How about using Gesa on the magical ability power of
Magical adepts. An effective 6 magic stat for 4.5
power points. Sling spells like a Full Magician and
pick up the first level of enhanced reflexes, with
gesa. Kick ass with full essence.




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