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Message no. 1
From: SHADE <MFN6430@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: adepts and metamagic
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 12:46:05 -0500
My previous post had some errors in it. Sorry, but I did not have
my Grim with me. Shamantic adepts as well as elementalists can perceive
astrally and can therefore use most of the metamagic. Only centering for
spellcasting requires astral perception. Dispelling does not require
astral perception. Anchoring doesn't either, but the item must be enchanted
and I wouldn't trust a talismonger to do it.
As for conjuring adepts with low magic attribute. Dispelling is almost
certain to cause physical drain. They cant use shielding because it is based
on magic pool which they don't have. This leaves the adept with the centering
to drain and masking. Not too unbalancing in my opinion. The other adepts
have similar drawbacks: Sorcery because they don't have perception they can't
quicken, or center to spellcasting, or anchor without enchanting which they
can't get. They can shield and dispel assuming they know some spell is
active because they can't see it. While this makes them fairly strong it
is still not nearly as strong as a full mage.
Shamantic adepts and elementalists have their fair share of problems
Elementalists can't even get health spells. The earth elementalist is the
only one with any variety of spells to choose from. Shamantics are better, but
they loose their totum bonuses and are basically stuck to one type of spirit.
These types of adepts also loose in the areas of meta magic in that they are
not as deversified in what they can do.
In short while adepts look appealing the price they pay for half-magics
barely makes up for the loss of money or skills given to street samurai, or the
versatility of a full fledged mage. These are only my opinions, yours may
differ, but those are the facts as I see them.

Isbin and Thurmite
<hermetic mage:his ally>
Message no. 2
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: adepts and metamagic
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 15:44:05 EDT
Check out Snake Shamanic Adepts; they are probably the most powerful of the
adepts, next to Rat Shamanic Adepts. Snake adepts get Health, Illusion, and
Detection spells (good selection there), and one kind of Spirit. All this
with few restrictions.

Rat's the closest thing, getting Illusion and Detection spells, and *all*
Spirits of Man. The restriction is that Rat *must* fight to the death when
cornered. And if the Rat Shaman gets himself up against a more powerful
oponent... ah, well :-).

--Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
PGP Public Key Block available upon request Ask about rat-pgp.el
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I'd rather be a pig than a fascist. --Porco Roso (The Crimson Pig)
Message no. 3
From: Galen Silversmith <galens@***.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: adepts and metamagic
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 16:05:54 -0400
On Wed, 30 Jun 1993, SHADE wrote:
> My previous post had some errors in it. Sorry, but I did not have
> my Grim with me. Shamantic adepts as well as elementalists can perceive
> astrally and can therefore use most of the metamagic. Only centering for
> spellcasting requires astral perception. Dispelling does not require
> astral perception. Anchoring doesn't either, but the item must be enchanted
> and I wouldn't trust a talismonger to do it.

Well, actually, both Elementalists and Shamantic Adapets can project as
well as percieve, so they get all the percs of Initiation, including
meta-plane projection, which none of the other adapets can get.

> As for conjuring adepts with low magic attribute. Dispelling is almost
> certain to cause physical drain. They cant use shielding because it is based
> on magic pool which they don't have. This leaves the adept with the centering
> to drain and masking. Not too unbalancing in my opinion.

Well, that's not the way I see it. The Conjurer can only use Conjurartion
fully as a skill, but they are still allowed to have Sorcery as a skill,
and since they are somewhat magically attunded, they still should have a
pool, if they want it. As I see it, all the adapets would have atleast
some instinctive knowledge on how to protect themselves from a spell that
mundanes wouldn't have. i could, however, see that the pool is halved
compared to the actual spellcasters though, but I still believe they
should be able to have one. If they had a magic pool, it would also
allow them both spell resistance, as well as access to these meta-skills.

> The other adepts
> have similar drawbacks: Sorcery because they don't have perception they can't
> quicken, or center to spellcasting, or anchor without enchanting which they
> can't get. They can shield and dispel assuming they know some spell is
> active because they can't see it. While this makes them fairly strong it
> is still not nearly as strong as a full mage.

ummm... Why can't a Sorcerer get anchoring without enchanting? I don't
believe there is anything about needing to be astral to anchor w/o enchant.
If I missunderstood you, why can't they do it with enchanting?
Enchanting is a skill many mundanes participate in, so i see no reason
that adepts arn't allowed to use it.

> Shamantic adepts and elementalists have their fair share of problems
> Elementalists can't even get health spells. The earth elementalist is the
> only one with any variety of spells to choose from. Shamantics are better, but
> they loose their totum bonuses and are basically stuck to one type of spirit.
> These types of adepts also loose in the areas of meta magic in that they are
> not as deversified in what they can do.

Earth elemantalists can only use the "physical, matter based" spells as it
is, which means to telekinesis, no control emotions/thoughts, not mana
barriers, etc. But still, all of these adepts are pretty powerful. Any
corp would be hard pressed to stop a water-elemenatlist on getting inside
if they wanted. It's not likely you can pull anything over the eyes of an
air elementalist. I'd put most fire elementalists up verse a street sam
almost any day, and an earth elementalist can cause havoc whenever they
really want to.

Shamantic adepts have an even better advantage, being able summon on the
fly, and having a usually larger selection of spells to choose from, there
really isn't any way to insult them.

> In short while adepts look appealing the price they pay for half-magics
> barely makes up for the loss of money or skills given to street samurai, or the
versatility of a full fledged mage. These are only my opinions, yours may
> differ, but those are the facts as I see them.
>
> Isbin and Thurmite
> <hermetic mage:his ally>
That's just your opinion. i personnaly have a great prefferene toward
adepts. But this is also an illogical statement. You pointed-out all their
weaknesses verses a full mage or shaman, and used that as a basis for
saying an adept is worse than a Street Sam. I don't see the connection
anywhere, but I'll take your street sam on any day with either of my fire
adept or Snake adept any day. Just watch your back :)
Message no. 4
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: adepts and metamagic
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 13:27:45 -0700
Hate to say this Isben and Thurmite, but your wrong!

>> My previous post had some errors in it. Sorry, but I did not have
>>my Grim with me. Shamantic adepts as well as elementalists can perceive
>>astrally and can therefore use most of the metamagic. Only centering for
>>spellcasting requires astral perception. Dispelling does not require
>>astral perception. Anchoring doesn't either, but the item must be enchanted
>>and I wouldn't trust a talismonger to do it.

Shamantic and Elementalist can use all metamagic powers. Dispelling does
require astral perception (Grimoire II page 45 says, "The magician must assense
the spell to try and dispel it."). I think your right about Centering, which is
acutally news to me.

>> As for conjuring adepts with low magic attribute. Dispelling is
>>almost certain to cause physical drain. They cant use shielding because it is
>>based on magic pool which they don't have. This leaves the adept with the
>>centering to drain and masking. Not too unbalancing in my opinion. The other

Conjuring Adepts cannot dispel since a) they can't astrally percieve, and b)
they cannot use the Sorcery skill. Note that they can also center against
penalties.

>>adepts have similar drawbacks: Sorcery because they don't have perception
>>they can't quicken, or center to spellcasting, or anchor without enchanting
>>which they can't get. They can shield and dispel assuming they know some
>>spell is active because they can't see it. While this makes them fairly
>>strong it is still not nearly as strong as a full mage.

Sorcerer Adepts cannot use dispelling since they cannot astrally percieve.

>> Shamantic adepts and elementalists have their fair share of problems
>>Elementalists can't even get health spells. The earth elementalist is the
>>only one with any variety of spells to choose from. Shamantics are better,
>>but they loose their totum bonuses and are basically stuck to one type of
>>spirit. These types of adepts also loose in the areas of meta magic in that
>>they are not as deversified in what they can do.

Shamanic and Elemental Adepts are not as powerful as full magicians, but the
are far from as weak as you make them seem. First of all Elemental Adepts have
a fairly wide choice of spells. Remember that they can use all spells (combat
or manipulation) that use their elemental side effect. They also gain access
to spells of a specific catagory. In fact the Air Elemental Adepts has access
to more spells (Detection plus all spells with Blast Elemental Effect) than
the Dog Shamanic Adept that a friend of mine plays. This goes the same for the
other Elemental Adepts.

The spell selection available to Shamanic Adepts varies from Totem to Totem but
the Moon Adepts has access to Manipulation, Illusion, and Detection spells,
Snake Adepts have access to Healing, Illusion and Detection, while Gator, Rat,
Sea, Shark, Wolf, and Wyrm all have access to two spell types.

>> In short while adepts look appealing the price they pay for half-magics
>>barely makes up for the loss of money or skills given to street samurai, or
>>the versatility of a full fledged mage. These are only my opinions, yours may
>>differ, but those are the facts as I see them.

IMHO Adepts are not "half-mages" as you imply, merely a different type of
magician than full magicians. It takes a good amount of thought and effort to
play an adept instead of a full magician, but they make very intersting
characters and should not be dismissed as being less powerful or useful and
full magicians and street samurai.

See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
Raven the Mage
Message no. 5
From: Galen Silversmith <galens@***.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: adepts and metamagic
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 22:32:28 -0400
On Wed, 30 Jun 1993, Richard Pieri wrote:
> Rat's the closest thing, getting Illusion and Detection spells, and *all*
> Spirits of Man. The restriction is that Rat *must* fight to the death when
> cornered. And if the Rat Shaman gets himself up against a more powerful
> oponent... ah, well :-).

Well, fighting to the death depends on how you intrepret "when they fight,
they fight to kill." As i see it, if they can run away (like Brave Sir
Robin :) or surrender w/o a big conflict, they will, but they won't accept
anothers surrender (since dead people tell no tales) unless they get a
really big bonus. But, as usual, YMMV.
Message no. 6
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: adepts and metamagic
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 22:54:12 EDT
>>>>> "Galen" == Galen Silversmith <galens@***.gwu.edu>
writes:

[BTW, "Rat" the Totem isn't me, the Stainless kind :-]

Galen> On Wed, 30 Jun 1993, Richard Pieri wrote:
> Rat's the closest thing, getting Illusion and Detection spells, and *all*
> Spirits of Man. The restriction is that Rat *must* fight to the death when
> cornered. And if the Rat Shaman gets himself up against a more powerful
> oponent... ah, well :-).

Galen> Well, fighting to the death depends on how you intrepret "when they
Galen> fight, they fight to kill."

I interpret as "when Rat gets into a fight, he won't back down; either he
or his opponent will die." A Rat Shaman who does otherwise is acting
outside the guidelines of his Totem.

--Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
PGP Public Key Block available upon request Ask about rat-pgp.el
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To defend/This is the Pact/But when life's scorned/And damage done
To avenge/This is the Pact --Blue Oyster Cult, Vengeance (The Pact)

Further Reading

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