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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gak The Great)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Sun Apr 14 16:50:03 2002
If an adept takes the infrared sight power, does he get natural or cybered
modification to his perception test? i.e., is it a +2 or a +4 on his test
when looking down the badly lit alley?

-- GAK THE GREAT

I don't suffer from insanity,
I enjoy every moment of it!
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Sun Apr 14 16:55:01 2002
> If an adept takes the infrared sight power, does he get natural or cybered
> modification to his perception test? i.e., is it a +2 or a +4 on his test
> when looking down the badly lit alley?


Personally I'd go with natural since a power isn't "technically" like a
cyber device.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Mon Apr 15 01:15:01 2002
> > If an adept takes the infrared sight power, does he get natural or
>cybered
> > modification to his perception test? i.e., is it a +2 or a +4 on his
>test
> > when looking down the badly lit alley?
>
>
>Personally I'd go with natural since a power isn't "technically" like a
>cyber device.

But it does say that Enhanced Senses mimics cyberware, not natural senses.






When Angels cry "Whence comes your fear?"

I shall reply "I find it here"


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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael McThorn)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Mon Apr 15 03:40:01 2002
> > > If an adept takes the infrared sight power, does he get natural or
> >cybered
> > > modification to his perception test? i.e., is it a +2 or a +4 on his
> >test
> > > when looking down the badly lit alley?
> >
> >
> >Personally I'd go with natural since a power isn't "technically" like a
> >cyber device.
>
> But it does say that Enhanced Senses mimics cyberware, not natural senses.

German sourcebooks declare adept powers as natural enhancements. So he would
only suffer a +2 modification to his perception test.

So long,
Bloodsucker
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Mon Apr 15 07:00:07 2002
> But it does say that Enhanced Senses mimics cyberware, not natural senses.
>

Well I don't have the book in front of me to check but if it says it mimics
cyberware it mimics cyberware :)
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Mon Apr 15 07:55:01 2002
At 09:45 15.04.2002 +0200, Michael McThorn wrote:

<snip>

> > But it does say that Enhanced Senses mimics cyberware, not natural senses.
>
>German sourcebooks declare adept powers as natural enhancements. So he would
>only suffer a +2 modification to his perception test.

Which one?


--
Arclight
eMail : arclight @*********.de
"If in doubt, don't."
From Rumsfelds rules
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:10:01 2002
>Well I don't have the book in front of me to check but if it says it mimics
>cyberware it mimics cyberware :)

The only places it specifically says "...functions exactly like the
cybernetic..." are the sections on Flare Compensation and Sound
Dampening. In the general description of Improved Sense, the topic is not
raised, though it does say "Unless an improvement involves radio or similar
technological phenomena, any sense provided by cyberware can also be
provided by this power."


-----
The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in
shining armour to lead all customers out of a mire of
technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he
who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them into it in
the first place. - Douglas Adams in Guardian, 25-Aug-95

Chris Shaffer chris@*****.net
http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Mon Apr 15 08:10:03 2002
>Well I don't have the book in front of me to check but if it says it mimics
>cyberware it mimics cyberware :)

The only places it specifically says "...functions exactly like the
cybernetic..." are the sections on Flare Compensation and Sound
Dampening. In the general description of Improved Sense, the topic is not
raised, though it does say "Unless an improvement involves radio or similar
technological phenomena, any sense provided by cyberware can also be
provided by this power."


-----
The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in
shining armour to lead all customers out of a mire of
technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he
who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them into it in
the first place. - Douglas Adams in Guardian, 25-Aug-95

Chris Shaffer chris@*****.net
http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Mon Apr 15 12:55:01 2002
>From: Chris Shaffer

> >Well I don't have the book in front of me to check but if it says it >
> >mimics cyberware it mimics cyberware :)

>The only places it specifically says "...functions exactly like the
>cybernetic..." are the sections on Flare Compensation and Sound
>Dampening. In the general description of Improved Sense, the topic is >not
>raised, though it does say "Unless an improvement involves radio >or
>similar technological phenomena, any sense provided by cyberware >can also
>be provided by this power."

I have always ruled that Adept's augmented senses function as though
natural, and must be explained.

----background info: my players of the last 10 years have all been college
students/graduates, and I find that demanding an explanation for their
physical adept powers is fair turn-about for the 4 hour debates on why
ruthenium polymer camo clothing should not work ;>


>From: "Derek Hyde"
>Subject: Enhanced Senses (was Adept Senses)

>Ok Guys, I've got a question for everyone to ponder.
>If you can take the enhanced senses to see in the IR spectrum (thermal)
>and can get the goggles or shades or whatever so you can see >Ultrasound,
>is there any way for you to be able to see UV? We've had a >player come up
>with the idea that he wants a laser that operates on >the UV wavelength so
>that when he pops on a set of goggles or >activates his adept power that
>allows him to do it he can see it and >no one else can. Personally I think
>the idea rocks and is a great >example of creative roleplaying but before I
>allow it I want to find >out how many rules I'll be breaking by giving him
>the adept power >under enhanced senses....

Under the rules, I see no reason why an adept could not extend his visual
perception into the UV end of the spectrum as easily as the infrared. Tell
him to prepare to be blinded on occasion by low end leakage from all the
ECM/ECCM kind of drek in the city, what with drone networks, wireless
decking, etc. At least some of it would have to bleed into the ultraviolet
spectrum as "noise".

Incidently, I require flare compensation to be purchased for every discrete
sense a person has, be it cybernetic, magical, natural or rigged. The
optical compensation for white light overload would be very different from
the one for thermal overload, IMO. My reasoning for this is that flare comp
provides uninterrupted sight through the instance of the "flare". I allow
sensory "cut-out" safety features for added nuyen and no additional essence
cost. Your cybereye for instance, can shut off (costing a simple action to
reactivate) as a defense against a flash-bang, but flare comp would let you
go right on acting as if the flash-bang had scarcely happened. Physical
addepts are thus very much out of luck. They have to "close their eyes"
just like anyone else, unless they buy flare compenstation for each sense
they want to use through a "flare" (aka sensory overload).

As a last note on augmented senses: thermal vision does not equal infrared
vision. My players pounded this into my head with numerous well illustrated
arguments, and I have taken my revenge by burning them with it on multiple
occasions. Thermal vision, for instance, would not see a red laser beam
from a security sensor. The beam does not have enough resistance from the
air to generate more heat than the ambient heat in air. But infrared
imaging would pick of the red beam, though it would miss blue. This little
fact has escaped a lot of people who believe that thermal = infrared
(including me for a long time). Thermal vision from cybereyes is a
reproduction of what a troll have naturally, and only differentiates a very
(extremely) limited type of wavelength. Enjoy...

...or don't. ;) Gurth seems to think we need a new thread, so maybe we
can get as scientific about spectrum-specific visual senses as we did about
ultrasound, and the difference between 'invisisble' and 'transparent'.

Here's one for you Gurth. Ruthenium polymer camo rules (possibly fixed in
SR3, I wouldn't know) suggest that with enough cameras, one could achieve
effective invisibility (raising TN to see a person into the 30s). Want to
discuss this one? ;P

Korishinzo

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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Mon Apr 15 14:00:02 2002
According to Ice Heart, on Mon, 15 Apr 2002 the word on the street was...

> Gurth seems to think we need a new thread

I think we need a bunch of new threads as well as keeping the old ones
going -- two or three posts a day over the past few days is just not
natural. (Then again, to me, 50 posts a day really also feels like too few
for this list...)

> Here's one for you Gurth. Ruthenium polymer camo rules (possibly fixed
> in SR3, I wouldn't know) suggest that with enough cameras, one could
> achieve effective invisibility (raising TN to see a person into the 30s).
> Want to discuss this one? ;P

With the rules in Man & Machine for this stuff (page 114), the maximum
modifier is +12, which is better than being invisible... Luckily it also
adds that movement reduces the modifier, by -1 for every 2 m/turn over 6.

I'm not really sure what to say about this, though. On the one hand, it
feels wrong because how much more invisible than invisible do you want to
get? OTOH, RP seems to work fairly well in game terms, so I'm not sure it
needs fixing.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Mon Apr 15 17:20:03 2002
On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:17:51 +0200
Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> I'm not really sure what to say about this, though. On the one hand, it
> feels wrong because how much more invisible than invisible do you want to
> get? OTOH, RP seems to work fairly well in game terms, so I'm not sure it
> needs fixing.

The easiest solution I envision is that the maximum _effective_ bonus
from RP has to be changed to +8, the same as for invisibility or full
darkness. You can still buy enough sensors to give you a higher "actual"
bonus of up to +12, and the extra points are used to offset movement
penalties.

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Tue Apr 16 01:25:01 2002
> > I'm not really sure what to say about this, though. On the one hand, it
> > feels wrong because how much more invisible than invisible do you want
>to
> > get? OTOH, RP seems to work fairly well in game terms, so I'm not sure
>it
> > needs fixing.
>
>The easiest solution I envision is that the maximum _effective_ bonus
>from RP has to be changed to +8, the same as for invisibility or full
>darkness. You can still buy enough sensors to give you a higher "actual"
>bonus of up to +12, and the extra points are used to offset movement
>penalties.

Not necessary, your forgetting that the +8 for invisibility is to shoot the
guy. ie you have to know he's there. The +12 for Ruthenium is for Perception
tests, not combat tests.

So, for either you can only shoot him when you know he's there.
To spot an invisible person requires breaking the illusion spell
To spot a ruthenium person requires a perseption test at +12
Once you've spotted them
Invivsibility +8 to ranged combat test due to blind fire
Ruthenium (my rule) +4 to ranged combat due to obscurement, but since you've
spotted them, you can see them and so it isn't blind fire.

so basically
Invisibility = impossible to see (but maybe can hear)
Ruthenium + Difficult to see, +12 mod (but maybe can hear)

--
When Angels cry "Whence comes your fear?"

I shall reply "I find it here"


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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Tue Apr 16 01:55:02 2002
>As a last note on augmented senses: thermal vision does not equal infrared
>vision. My players pounded this into my head with numerous well
>illustrated
>arguments, and I have taken my revenge by burning them with it on multiple
>occasions. Thermal vision, for instance, would not see a red laser beam
>from a security sensor. The beam does not have enough resistance from the
>air to generate more heat than the ambient heat in air. But infrared
>imaging would pick of the red beam, though it would miss blue.

True, but also not true.
First the Thermographic Vision Does Not Equal Infrared Vision. This is true
in that they aren't seeing heat, but, hot object generate infrared light.
This is how you can use thermal vision over distance. You are not picking up
the heat itself, but the infrared light that the hot object is transmitting.

Second, you can't see lasers. In order to see you require light from the
thing you are seeing to reach your eyes. Lasers shine light in one
direction. Unless your eye is in that direction then you can't see it. What
you can see, however, is dust particles and water droplets in the lasers
path. This is why, in the movies, they use spray cans to see lasers. (Just
as a note: any corp with an ounce of brains would have senseors that detect
the intensity of the laser, thus sensing when this is done).


--
When Angels cry "Whence comes your fear?"

I shall reply "I find it here"


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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Tue Apr 16 07:15:01 2002
>As a last note on augmented senses: thermal vision does not equal infrared
>vision. My players pounded this into my head with numerous well
>illustrated
>arguments, and I have taken my revenge by burning them with it on multiple
>occasions. Thermal vision, for instance, would not see a red laser beam
>from a security sensor. The beam does not have enough resistance from the
>air to generate more heat than the ambient heat in air. But infrared
>imaging would pick of the red beam,

Not quite true IIRC, Thermographic systems allow the human eye to "see" into
the infrared spectrum by translating the light's frequency up to the point
it becomes visible, the human body can already "see" into the infrared
spectrum, if you stand near a furnace you will be able to tell whether it is
burning or not as infrared radiation fires nerve cels in your skin.
Thermographic vision enhancements would duplicate (and improve on) existing
technology and would therefore be able to see the dot of an infrared bomb
guidance laser...
security lasers normally use light in the visible range, as someone else
said, the reason you can't see the laser beams across the corridor is that
none of the "photons" they emit reach your eyes (or rather too few to
register) cigarette smoke (for example) puts particles in the path of the
beam which they reflect from in all directions, increasing the number of
photons which reach your eyes and making the beam "visible". You cannot see
the beam of a normal torch for the same reasons.
On the subject of intensity sensors to tell when someone is trying to see
the beam there must be some tolerance built in IMO, otherwise a single speck
of dust falling through the beam will set off the alarms, theives (and
'runners) will have taken advantage of this tolerance and will use something
that puts enough particles/droplets into the air to make the beam just about
visible but not enough to trip the sensors. Status Quo maintained!



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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:00:01 2002
> Not quite true IIRC, Thermographic systems allow the human eye to "see"
into
> the infrared spectrum by translating the light's frequency up to the point
> it becomes visible, the human body can already "see" into the infrared
> spectrum, if you stand near a furnace you will be able to tell whether it
is
> burning or not as infrared radiation fires nerve cels in your skin.
> Thermographic vision enhancements would duplicate (and improve on)
existing
> technology and would therefore be able to see the dot of an infrared bomb
> guidance laser...

Okay...I'm going to pipe in now. My understanding (which consists of
research for infravision in AD&D and watching a WHOLE lotta weapon shows on
history and discovery channel!! LOL) is that IR currently works by emitting
a beam of IR light. Then you effectively are looking through that beam.
According to one of the shows they said if you are using IR you can see an
emission from another using IR if you are looking at them (the emission
glows).

Now lets remember too that Thermagraphic is more than just IR. It is a
lot more complex of a system and is less specific. You seem more blobs and
shapes than most things recognizable. While IR is a little more clear and
you can basically recognize a person compared to a fire.....ya know?

Meph
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Tue Apr 16 11:50:01 2002
>From: "Meph" <meph@*********.net>
> Okay...I'm going to pipe in now. My understanding (which consists of
>research for infravision in AD&D

The "How come a drow can see so far" one, we've always just said that elves
simply collect about 10000 times as much light as humans therefore have
almost perfect night vision in the presence of even the slightest ambient
light.


>and watching a WHOLE lotta weapon shows on
>history and discovery channel!! LOL) is that IR currently works by
> >emitting
>a beam of IR light. Then you effectively are looking through that >beam.

I think we're getting confused between NVGs (Night Vision Goggles) Infrared
Image Intensifiers and Thermographic systems.
NVGs and Infrared Image Intensifiers are more or less the same thing, both
systems collect more light (by say a thousand times) than the human eye
unaided, amplify that light and project the image onto a screen so that you
can see it, the biggest diference is that IIIs use floodlights with all but
the near visible Infrared spectrum filtered out or a laser operating in the
near visible Infrared which scans (scanning lasers are used at laser shows
etc, basically a moving prism redirects the beam so rapidly that the eye
can't keep up, rather like the cathode ray tube in a tv scans over the
entire screen pixel by pixel 50, 60 or 75 times a second) Thermographic
systems are major peices of scientific kit for the most part and pick up
only the Infrared, because the frequency and intensity (amplitude) of the
radiation are not directly analogous to visible light the resulting image is
then fed through some severe image processing systems which (depending on
their programming) produce an image made up of colourised dots similar to
the "hunter's view" in Predator etc.
For rules purposes both NVGs and IIIs are lowlight vision systems, IIIs
effectively coming with (non visible spectrum) eyelights. Thermographic
systems remain thermographic systems.
It is worth noting that in a stiffflingly hot room, say a sauna,
thermographic systems tend to fall down, they get washed out. On the plus
side if you're looking at a peice of steel under load in a controlled
enviroment and you tune your image processor to suit you should be able to
see the stress points in the metal.

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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Tue Apr 16 12:05:01 2002
> Okay...I'm going to pipe in now. My understanding (which consists of
> research for infravision in AD&D and watching a WHOLE lotta weapon shows on
> history and discovery channel!! LOL) is that IR currently works by emitting
> a beam of IR light. Then you effectively are looking through that beam.
> According to one of the shows they said if you are using IR you can see an
> emission from another using IR if you are looking at them (the emission
> glows).

You're describing what I believe is near infrared technology, which is
related to 'starlight'(not sure the exact term) technology, you're basicly
using a flashlight that radiates light in the spectrum beyond what the
human eye can see, the problem being if someone else has a nearIR rig or a
starlight scope it will probably see you just the same as if you were
walking around with a mag light :)

This is what I assume low light vision is supposed to be, the character's
eyes can see a broader spectrum and thus can see better than someone who
is limited to visible light.

> Now lets remember too that Thermagraphic is more than just IR. It is a
> lot more complex of a system and is less specific. You seem more blobs and
> shapes than most things recognizable. While IR is a little more clear and
> you can basically recognize a person compared to a fire.....ya know?
>

IIRC Thermal sights are based on far infrared, and generally (probably
because they are newer) the pictures tend to be clearer than you get with
starlight/nearIR gear.
This is what I assume 'infravision' was supposed to be.

A nice side bonus of thermal sights is that they make it very clear when
somthing doesn't radiate light the same way as the surrounding material,
IE you may have a green camo-net over your truck that matches the
surrounding tree perfectly, but if it doesn't reflect light the same way
as the leaves on the tree it sticks out like a sore thumb, there was a
great british documentary about this a few years back that played on PBS
but I couldn't find any references to it online.

If I was GMing someone using the R polymers and their oposition was
using thermal I'd give the bad guys no vision mods to shoot them because
it would be like looking at someone in a bad suit, the polymers just
emulating the colours in the visible spectrum, would just look like a
blotchy suit in the thermal band. (From M&M it indicates that
thermal just lowers the penalty which seems wrong to me)

Most of this was from lectures long ago so it's quite possible I'm
remembering incorrectly.
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Tue Apr 16 13:45:18 2002
According to Meph, on Tue, 16 Apr 2002 the word on the street was...

> Okay...I'm going to pipe in now. My understanding (which consists of
> research for infravision in AD&D and watching a WHOLE lotta weapon shows
> on history and discovery channel!! LOL) is that IR currently works by
> emitting a beam of IR light. Then you effectively are looking through
> that beam. According to one of the shows they said if you are using IR
> you can see an emission from another using IR if you are looking at them
> (the emission glows).

You are describing active infrared here. This has been around since WWII --
AFAIK the first combat use was in early 1945, on German Panther tanks
modified with an IR spotlight (a normal spotlight with a filter on it) and
viewer for the commander, and on later tanks for the gunner and driver as
well (these tanks are sometimes known as "Vampir"). By the 1960s, just
about every AFV was equipped with infrared driving lights and a ditto
spotlight for the main gun, with IR-sensitive periscopes and gun sights for
the crew. These things don't work unless you have an IR spotlight, or are
scanning for someone else's IR lights, though.

Thermal imaging (what SR calls thermographic vision, and is sometimes also
known as passive infrared) works by picking up the heat that's actually
radiated by the target, instead of the IR light you're bouncing off it with
an IR spotlight. This is 1970s/'80s tech, and is standard equipment on any
western MBT (the Russians would love to be able to afford it :) and is,
from a tactical POV, the better choice as it doesn't require you to give
your own position away with that spotlight. The picture you get is a bit
different, as it shows a heat map rather than a photographic image (which
active IR basically does) but if you have a bit of experience with it,
shape recognition should not be a problem. You may not be able to ID people
at longer ranges that you could with normal vision, but you will certainly
be able to see them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: Adept Senses
Date: Wed Apr 17 00:25:01 2002
Well to all of you who clarified my post thoroughly.....I appreciate it.
Thanks....now I have a better understanding of it. Apppreciate it!

Meph

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