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Message no. 1
From: Damion Milliken dam01@***.edu.au
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:12:01 +1100 (EST)
Greetings TOLMWAPPERs and other list denizens!

I come seeking your infinite wisdom, years of experience, open minds, giving
hearts, courteous responses, intelligent debate, accepting behaviour, and
well, er, maybe I just ought to give up. Heck, I'm just looking for your
thoughts, ideas, jokes, in jokes, stupid remarks, flames, nitpicking
behaviour, and harsh unemoticoned criticisms (but hey, I can always hope,
neh? :-)).

I am sure that there are many good house rules for the following question
floating around out there. Share them (or maybe just their URLs) freely,
please!

I was wondering what people think of the idea of allowing magicians to
select metamagical techniques again for additional benefit? For example,
selecting Masking a second time may allow the magician to mask his Essence
in addition to his Magic (just a suggestion). Selecting Anchoring a second
time may confer some benfit (lower TNs, lower Karma costs?) for Anchoring
tasks. The idea for this stems somewhat from the Adept (sheesh, the term
Physical Adept dies hard!) Enhanced Centering ability whereby they may
purchase Centering additional times for additional skills.

The current prompting for me to have to decide upon something to do stems
from my teams main Adept reaching Grade 5 in initiation, and whinging that
there were no more Metamagical Techniques available to him. Addmittidly, I
could have said "tough mojo chummer, you're good enough as it is", but I can
see potential for some otherwise cool ideas. The player in question wants
to be able to hide from searching spirits, and wishes to select Masking
about 3 or 4 times, with the eventual aim of hiding his aura completely.

What does everybody think?

PS: BTW, it's nice to be back (I've been lurking for about a year now). I
see that the list has both changed and stayed the same ... How's that saying
go again? <grin>

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 2
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:29:24 +0100
According to Damion Milliken, on Tue, 14 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> Greetings TOLMWAPPERs and other list denizens!

Like anyone who is one still knows what that stands for :)

> I was wondering what people think of the idea of allowing magicians to
> select metamagical techniques again for additional benefit? For example,
> selecting Masking a second time may allow the magician to mask his Essence
> in addition to his Magic (just a suggestion). Selecting Anchoring a second
> time may confer some benfit (lower TNs, lower Karma costs?) for Anchoring
> tasks.

If the benefits of doing this are worked out carefully, I don't have a
problem with it. However, most abilities shouldn't become twice as powerful
just because they're bought a second time...

> The idea for this stems somewhat from the Adept (sheesh, the term
> Physical Adept dies hard!)

You'll see a lot of pre-SR3 players still refer to them as physads even
after more than 2 years.

> PS: BTW, it's nice to be back (I've been lurking for about a year now). I
> see that the list has both changed and stayed the same ... How's that saying
> go again? <grin>

You lurk for a year and not let us know it?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:43:35 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
To: ShadowRN List <shadowrn@*********.com>
Cc: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 8:12 PM
Subject: Advanced Metamagic


>Greetings TOLMWAPPERs and other list denizens!
>
>I come seeking your infinite wisdom, years of experience, open minds,
giving
>hearts, courteous responses, intelligent debate, accepting behaviour, and
>well, er, maybe I just ought to give up. Heck, I'm just looking for your
>thoughts, ideas, jokes, in jokes, stupid remarks, flames, nitpicking
>behaviour, and harsh unemoticoned criticisms (but hey, I can always hope,
>neh? :-)).
>
>I am sure that there are many good house rules for the following question
>floating around out there. Share them (or maybe just their URLs) freely,
>please!
>
>I was wondering what people think of the idea of allowing magicians to
>select metamagical techniques again for additional benefit? For example,
>selecting Masking a second time may allow the magician to mask his Essence
>in addition to his Magic (just a suggestion). Selecting Anchoring a second
>time may confer some benfit (lower TNs, lower Karma costs?) for Anchoring
>tasks. The idea for this stems somewhat from the Adept (sheesh, the term
>Physical Adept dies hard!) Enhanced Centering ability whereby they may
>purchase Centering additional times for additional skills.
>
>The current prompting for me to have to decide upon something to do stems
>from my teams main Adept reaching Grade 5 in initiation, and whinging that
>there were no more Metamagical Techniques available to him. Addmittidly, I
>could have said "tough mojo chummer, you're good enough as it is", but I
can
>see potential for some otherwise cool ideas. The player in question wants
>to be able to hide from searching spirits, and wishes to select Masking
>about 3 or 4 times, with the eventual aim of hiding his aura completely.
>
>What does everybody think?
>
Well, it used to be that you didn't get any new techniques after achieving
level 0, but that's neither here nor there. I think that if you did allow
the player to double up on techniques, you'd probably have to do it on a
sliding scale. The second time the technique is taken, it increases
power/decreases difficulty by half, the third by quarter, and so on.
Message no. 4
From: Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 03:30:26 -0800
From: Damion Milliken

> Greetings TOLMWAPPERs and other list denizens!

>From Gurth:
> Like anyone who is one still knows what that stands for :)

Those Other Listmembers Who Are Permanently something something
something :). It's in the FAQ anyway :P

[snip flattery]
> I was wondering what people think of the idea of allowing magicians to
> select metamagical techniques again for additional benefit? For
example,
> selecting Masking a second time may allow the magician to mask his
Essence
> in addition to his Magic (just a suggestion). Selecting Anchoring a
second
> time may confer some benfit (lower TNs, lower Karma costs?) for
Anchoring
> tasks. The idea for this stems somewhat from the Adept (sheesh, the
term
> Physical Adept dies hard!) Enhanced Centering ability whereby they may
> purchase Centering additional times for additional skills.

I like this idea! Of course you need to build in some fail saves in case
your meta mage decides to get centering four times in order to lower his
target number for the centering test (which can rapidly run out of
control)
but in general it allows for an even greater spectrum of mages with more
specialization possibilities.

> PS: BTW, it's nice to be back (I've been lurking for about a year
now). I
> see that the list has both changed and stayed the same ... How's that
saying
> go again? <grin>

Nice to see you back, oh second guru! :)

Wasn't there some kind of prophesy about the two gurus being back on the
list as well?

Martin
- Who feels like he has a +2 on all target numbers today -
Message no. 5
From: Damion Milliken dam01@***.edu.au
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:36:01 +1100 (EST)
Gurth writes:

> > Greetings TOLMWAPPERs and other list denizens!
>
> Like anyone who is one still knows what that stands for :)

Everybody should! We've all read the FAQ here ... haven't we?

> If the benefits of doing this are worked out carefully, I don't have a
> problem with it. However, most abilities shouldn't become twice as powerful
> just because they're bought a second time...

Yeah, I have to agree with you and Simon and Fiona here, it ought to be an
ever increasing difficulty curve. OTOH, it's a bit tricky to place some of
the more obscure possibilities, particularly with Masking. I've toyed with
the idea of allowing a progression like:

Masking 1: Normal Masking
Masking 2: Able to mask to any Magic attribute and/or Initiate Grade lower
than your own
Masking 3: Able to mask your Essence to values lower than your own but
greater than zero (not too useful for cyberzombies, neh?)
Masking 4: Able to mask your Essence to values up to your racial maximum
(useful for cybered magic dudes)
Masking 5: Able to mask your Essence to zero (so your aura appears dead).

Also, I considered allowing greater masking of foci/spells with each level,
or better odds of hiding your true aura from observers, or better odds of
piercing other's Masking. Or maybe a choice of one of the options in this
paragraph, or whichever option is next from the choices above.

It sounds a little difficult to get too much, though, which might not be
such a bad thing, I guess.

I haven't really thought too much about other Metamagical abilities, as my
players aren't interested in those.

> You lurk for a year and not let us know it?

You could always look up the list subscription <grin>. But yeah, I didn't
want to get involved in things again - this list, although quite fun and
informative, takes up lots of time.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:15:37 +0100
According to Damion Milliken, on Wed, 15 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> > > Greetings TOLMWAPPERs and other list denizens!
> >
> > Like anyone who is one still knows what that stands for :)
>
> Everybody should! We've all read the FAQ here ... haven't we?

Take it from a GridSec member: no, they haven't...

> Yeah, I have to agree with you and Simon and Fiona here, it ought to be an
> ever increasing difficulty curve. OTOH, it's a bit tricky to place some of
> the more obscure possibilities, particularly with Masking. I've toyed with
> the idea of allowing a progression like:
>
> Masking 1: Normal Masking
> Masking 2: Able to mask to any Magic attribute and/or Initiate Grade lower
> than your own
> Masking 3: Able to mask your Essence to values lower than your own but
> greater than zero (not too useful for cyberzombies, neh?)
> Masking 4: Able to mask your Essence to values up to your racial maximum
> (useful for cybered magic dudes)
> Masking 5: Able to mask your Essence to zero (so your aura appears dead).

So what would be the benefit of Masking 5? At 3 you can already go down to
almost 0, appearing highly-cybered in the process (at least to anyone not
paying too much attention) while at 5 you can play dead?

> Also, I considered allowing greater masking of foci/spells with each level,
> or better odds of hiding your true aura from observers, or better odds of
> piercing other's Masking. Or maybe a choice of one of the options in this
> paragraph, or whichever option is next from the choices above.

Being able to mask more sustained spells or foci sounds much more useful
than being able to alter your apparent Essence rating. Maybe an extra Force
point per extra level of Masking?

> > You lurk for a year and not let us know it?
>
> You could always look up the list subscription <grin>. But yeah, I didn't
> want to get involved in things again - this list, although quite fun and
> informative, takes up lots of time.

Yeah, sure, I habitually scan through the subscriber list to see if any old
members have re-subbed. Right... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Damion Milliken dam01@***.edu.au
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:36:36 +1100 (EST)
Gurth writes:

> > Masking 5: Able to mask your Essence to zero (so your aura appears dead).
>
> So what would be the benefit of Masking 5? At 3 you can already go down to
> almost 0, appearing highly-cybered in the process (at least to anyone not
> paying too much attention) while at 5 you can play dead?

Well, it's sure a good way to avoid getting killed when a magician orders
spirits to "kill everyone in that room". Also handy for avoiding detection
when spirits are ordered to search the building for people and report their
location. Sneaking past spirit sentries would be possible, depending upon
their exact orders.

> Being able to mask more sustained spells or foci sounds much more useful
> than being able to alter your apparent Essence rating. Maybe an extra Force
> point per extra level of Masking?

Hmm, yes, this is true. Also like Marty Steffens says, it couldn't simply
add an additional Magic Rating in foci/spell Force. Perhaps an additional
single point like you suggest would be viable. Maybe the Masking 1-5
options could be compacted into fewer options to make them worth selecting:

Masking 1: Normal Masking
Masking 2: Essence Masking (allows masking of Magic and Initiate
Grade to any level lower than the magician has, and
allows masking of Essence to any level greter than zero
up to racial maximum)
Masking 3: Allows a zero Essence, or dead aura

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 8
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:43:01 -0800 (PST)
<snipt!(TM)>
> I like this idea! Of course you need to build in
some fail saves in case your meta mage decides to get
centering four times in order to lower his target
number for the centering test (which can rapidly run
out of control)
<snipt!(TM)>
> Martin

Uh, Martin, that's one example that doesn't NEED a
fail safe - remember the centering target number is
reduced by the initiate grade - so it's generally more
worthwhile for a mage to just beef up his initiate
grades and branch out with extra metamagics than it
would be to buy more grades of centering. I'll tell
you, with my 10th grade initiate mage-dood, there
aren't a lot of centering tests that he doesn't get a
LOT of successes on.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 05:17:26 -0800
From: Rand Ratinac

> Uh, Martin, that's one example that doesn't NEED a
> fail safe - remember the centering target number is
> reduced by the initiate grade

So!? So!? So!? Everything needs fail safes! Players
are just waiting for you to leave a loop hole anywhere :)

The fail save I had in mind was along these lines:
Player initiates, chooses centering
Next level, chooses centering again
One higher, lets go for centering again.

So our little munchkin above is clearly aiming for a
target number reduction from both sides (both level
and taking centering multiple times) up to the point
where he can just pick up his mouth harp and reduce
the GM to tears.

Of course I could just confuse everything here and
remember 2nd ed. rules...

Martin
- 6D4, 12D, who cares, you're dead! -
Message no. 10
From: Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 05:35:43 -0800
From: Gurth

> So what would be the benefit of Masking 5? At 3 you can already go
> down to almost 0, appearing highly-cybered in the process (at least
> to anyone not paying too much attention) while at 5 you can play dead?

Don't know if Damion intended this, but maybe you can use it to
become invisible / less visible in astral space, walk through mana
barriers, or get past spirits undetected? Something different than
actually reducing your essence, but if you appear dead, you might be
able to pull of some of those tricks. Just don't walk around in a ghoul
neighbourhood :).

Martin
Message no. 11
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:57:47 -0800 (PST)
> > So what would be the benefit of Masking 5? At 3
you can already go down to almost 0, appearing
highly-cybered in the process (at least to anyone not
paying too much attention) while at 5 you can play
dead?
>
> Well, it's sure a good way to avoid getting killed
when a magician orders spirits to "kill everyone in
that room". Also handy for avoiding detection when
spirits are ordered to search the building for people
and report their location. Sneaking past spirit
sentries would be possible, depending upon their exact
orders.
<snipt!(TM)>
> Damion Milliken

Mmmm, yes...but you'd have to be dealing with a pretty
stupid spirit to fool it in this way, IMO, Damion. If
you also didn't move (and perhaps used a physical mask
spell - which you then also mask) to LOOK dead, you'd
be able to convince most spirits/people etc. I don't
think anything but a watcher, or an intelligence 2 or
less spirit would be fooled JUST by an "astrally dead"
aura.

Btw, I never responded about the complimentary
"daredevil" skills question. Personally, I'd make
Athletics complimentary. Why? Because otherwise
someone with a high Athletics skill could easily
perform ANY daredevil sport, simply by purchasing one
or two levels of the required knowledge skill. My
adept, Void, with his athletics skill of 7/11 at his
current, high level, would be rolling 11 dice PLUS any
complimentary dice for the knowledge skill for ANY
daredevil activity. Not exactly realistic IMO. I don't
think that a professional footballer (athletics 5 or 6
at least) would be as good at skydiving, skiing,
snowboarding or hang-gliding without some practise,
would you?

Of course, that all depends on how realistic and
detailed you want to get. If you want to be cinematic
about it, make athletics the core skill. Void'd be
leaping from tall buildings and skydiving with the
best of 'em. (Of course, he already does the "leaping
from tall buildings" bit. Freefall 9 and Wall Walk are
good for that kind of thing. :) )

*Doc' leaps from the top of the Empire State Building
in his Crassman outfit, screaming, "I have Athletics
eighteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen!"

*thump*
*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:25:43 -0800 (PST)
> > Uh, Martin, that's one example that doesn't NEED a
fail safe - remember the centering target number is
reduced by the initiate grade
>
> So!? So!? So!? Everything needs fail safes! Players
are just waiting for you to leave a loop hole anywhere
:)
>
> The fail save I had in mind was along these lines:
> Player initiates, chooses centering
> Next level, chooses centering again
> One higher, lets go for centering again.
>
> So our little munchkin above is clearly aiming for a
target number reduction from both sides (both level
and taking centering multiple times) up to the point
where he can just pick up his mouth harp and reduce
the GM to tears.
>
> Of course I could just confuse everything here and
remember 2nd ed. rules...
> Martin

I see your point...but if I were GMing, it's at this
stage that I'd say, "Oh, nice. Now, have you bought
Masking? No? Oh, well, security knows you're an
initiate. Have you quickened that increase reflexes
spell of yours? You don't have quickening? Damn, I
sorry - that corp goon just beat your head in before
you could do anything. Oh well - make a new
character."

Well, not exactly, but there are definitely ways you
can make a munchkinous level of specialisation work
against a player and encourage them to take a more
rounded approach. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 13
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:52:29 +1300 (NZDT)
On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Rand Ratinac wrote:

> Well, not exactly, but there are definitely ways you
> can make a munchkinous level of specialisation work
> against a player and encourage them to take a more
> rounded approach. :)

Not to mention the philosophy of "whatever the PCs can have, the NPCs can
have".

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 14
From: Mister Incognito misterincognito@*******.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:33:27 GMT
>>Gurth writes:
>
> > > Greetings TOLMWAPPERs and other list denizens!
> >
> > Like anyone who is one still knows what that stands for :)
>
>Everybody should! We've all read the FAQ here ... haven't we?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! rotflmao! Sorry, I just read this and
couldn't help myself. (Wanders off muttering 'We've all read the FAQ here
... haven't we?' to himself and giggling.)
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Message no. 15
From: Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 06:25:19 -0800
From: Rand Ratinac

[spirits killing everyone]
> Mmmm, yes...but you'd have to be dealing with a pretty
> stupid spirit to fool it in this way, IMO, Damion. If
> you also didn't move (and perhaps used a physical mask
> spell - which you then also mask) to LOOK dead, you'd
> be able to convince most spirits/people etc. I don't
> think anything but a watcher, or an intelligence 2 or
> less spirit would be fooled JUST by an "astrally dead"
> aura.

Why? It could think it was a machine moving around. I
think there would be plenty of semi-independent
machines running around an average office building;
mail delivery, floor polishers, vacuum cleaners, etc.
So just look like you're sucking dusts and go "Whhoooo"
and you should be okay :).

There is two ways to look at it, you either look dead
as in was once alive, in which case walking around would
be a bad idea; or you look like you've never been alive
to begin with i.e. machines or inanimate objects.

Martin
- Hiss, hiss, I am a steam pipe -
Message no. 16
From: Lute, David dlute@********.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:04:11 -0500
<snip..>
>Btw, I never responded about the complimentary
>"daredevil" skills question. Personally, I'd make
>Athletics complimentary. Why? Because otherwise
>someone with a high Athletics skill could easily
>perform ANY daredevil sport, simply by purchasing one
>or two levels of the required knowledge skill. My
>adept, Void, with his athletics skill of 7/11 at his
>current, high level, would be rolling 11 dice PLUS any
>complimentary dice for the knowledge skill for ANY
>daredevil activity. Not exactly realistic IMO. I don't
>think that a professional footballer (athletics 5 or 6
>at least) would be as good at skydiving, skiing,
>snowboarding or hang-gliding without some practise,
>would you?

I don't know about this. Skydiving is not as hard as most people
believe it is. After my 3rd jump I was able to bring myself in with out
having any one guild me in and landed on the X at the DZ (drop zone). From
then on out I was able to land on the X or dang close to it. Now I haven't
done much with low entry or bridge jumping and what not or any real high
jumps, still trying to get my certification. So the basic for skydiving are
really not that hard. Hang-gliding never been, however my wife has and she
did ok with it. Skiing been doing that for years, along with soccer, track,
swimming, ultimate Frisbee, Frisbee golf, flag football, suba diving almost
got me padi certificate just have to take the underwater test, rock
climbing, bouldering, etc. Pretty much if it is outdoor I have tried it or
have plans to do so in the near future.

Guess what I am trying to say is that some of the daredevil sports
aren't as hard as most people think they are or the media makes them out to
be. I would probably make some of them a separate skill cause of the
special subclasses of them. Like deep water diving, HALO entry etc..
However for a simple skydive I think the normal person with an average
intelligence should be able to pull it off as long as they had some basic
instruction and at least 1 jump under their belt. Your first jump, I
wouldn't try it solo cause of the system shock your body goes through.
Almost every one that does a skydive temporally "blacks out" for about 1
second when you first jump out from sensory overload. Also you have to
remember that where you want to land most likely is directly below you not
out on the horizon like you are used to looking.
Message no. 17
From: Damion Milliken dam01@***.edu.au
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:35:47 +1100 (EST)
Doc writes:

> Mmmm, yes...but you'd have to be dealing with a pretty stupid spirit to
> fool it in this way, IMO, Damion. If you also didn't move (and perhaps used
> a physical mask spell - which you then also mask) to LOOK dead, you'd be
> able to convince most spirits/people etc. I don't think anything but a
> watcher, or an intelligence 2 or less spirit would be fooled JUST by an
> "astrally dead" aura.

Well, I'm not so convinced. Spirits are creatures of the Astral, and to
them an objects Aura defines the object. Living Auras are very different
from dead auras. I would have imagined that a spirit would identify a
"person" by their Aura, not by some characteristic of their physical body.
Thus if they did not have the normal, live person Aura, or at least some
detectable life force of some kind (active spells, foci, cybermancy, etc.),
then they would not be considered a "person" in the spirits mind.

Of course, smarter spirits (ie not watchers, but other spirits of higher
Force, or perhaps even low Force spirits of Man) might realise that
something was amis if the auraless "person" was moving about or carrying out
other activities not usually possible without being alive. Also, if spirits
were ordered to report "anything" that intruded (to capture drones, other
spirits, etc.), then someone with a dead aura would likely get picked up the
same as a drone would. At this point stealth would be handy...

This makes me think of something: does Masking allow a magician to Astrally
Perceive and Mask the fact that he is Perceiving? I've always allowed this,
reasoning that Masking your Aura would be much like Masking active foci or
spells, but it makes me think right now. Because, if you could Astrally
Perceive, Mask your Aura to be "dead" and use your stealth skill, it'd be
quite possible to avoid many astral patrollers. Otherwise it'd only be
possible to avoid dumb ones, or ones with narrow orders (dumb summoners :-)).

Martin Steffens writes:

(Greetings, Marty!)

> There is two ways to look at it, you either look dead as in was once
> alive, in which case walking around would be a bad idea; or you look like
> you've never been alive to begin with i.e. machines or inanimate objects.

The original idea was to make it look like a "dead" aura, ie that of someone
who has died and is no longer alive. Maybe an additional Masking ability
could be to "look like a vacuum cleaner" on the Astral... <laughs>

As an interesting note, the player that selected these abilities last night
Masked his Aura in the followig fashion: he set his Essence to 0.05, and
Masked his Magic to zero. He was reasoning that if someone pierced his
first level of Masking (Magic), then they'd see he had a Magic Attribute of
11, but his Essence was 0.05 (implying that he was a Grade 11 Initiate). He
figured that most people would just apologise and move on... <grin> OTOH,
I'm wondering about the "levels" of Masking that he's assuming he's
getting. I tend to think that if someone pierces his Masking, then they see
everything as it truely is, rather than having to re-pierce it. Not that
anyone's likely to pierce it anytime soon, so it's probably a moot point...
:-)

Thanks for your input folks - great ideas!

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 18
From: Damion Milliken dam01@***.edu.au
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:51:02 +1100 (EST)
Lute, David writes:

> Guess what I am trying to say is that some of the daredevil sports
> aren't as hard as most people think they are or the media makes them out to
> be. I would probably make some of them a separate skill cause of the
> special subclasses of them. Like deep water diving, HALO entry etc..
> However for a simple skydive I think the normal person with an average
> intelligence should be able to pull it off as long as they had some basic
> instruction and at least 1 jump under their belt.

So essentially, a normal person (assume Athletics 1-2?), with a bit of
instruction and a practice run (Sky Diving 1?), could make an easy jump (TN
4?) with moderate success (1-2 successes)? I guess at this point the
Complimentary bit could go either way. I would imagine, like Doc, however,
that a HALO jump would require more skills in Sky Diving than in Athletics.
So an expert Sky Diver (Sky Diving 6, Athletics 1), would be a lot better
off than a trained athlete (Sky Diving 1, Athletics 6) at hitting the mark
and not injuring himself on a night time HALO jump. Sound reasonable? If
it does, then I think Doc's right - the Complimentary skill becomes
Athletics. What do you think, Dave, you'd have more of an idea than me?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 19
From: Max Trebilcock max.trebilcock@******.net
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:48:32 +0330
Hi List,
Thinking about the "Level 5" Masking ability, would it not be as useful
to be able to Mask Cyberware, making your Essense appear whole rather
than dead.

Just a thought

Max
Message no. 20
From: Damion Milliken dam01@***.edu.au
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 19:50:13 +1100 (EST)
Max Trebilcock writes:

> Thinking about the "Level 5" Masking ability, would it not be as useful
> to be able to Mask Cyberware, making your Essense appear whole rather
> than dead.

Yes, indeed it would! Was this not included as one of the suggestions for
Masking 3 or 4? If it wasn't, then it sure should have been, as it's a
really good idea.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 21
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 05:44:43 -0800 (PST)
> > Well, not exactly, but there are definitely ways
you can make a munchkinous level of specialisation
work against a player and encourage them to take a
more rounded approach. :)
>
> Not to mention the philosophy of "whatever the PCs
can have, the NPCs can have".
<Keith Duthie>

Oh, sure, but that gets boring after a while. I think
the philosophy of "whatever the PCs can have just
makes my NPCs laugh themselves silly" can be a lot
more fun. ;)

*Doc' does some muahaha-ing...for old times' sake...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 22
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:30:37 -0800 (PST)
> [spirits killing everyone]
> > Mmmm, yes...but you'd have to be dealing with a
pretty stupid spirit to fool it in this way, IMO,
Damion. If you also didn't move (and perhaps used a
physical mask spell - which you then also mask) to
LOOK dead, you'd be able to convince most
spirits/people etc. I don't think anything but a
watcher, or an intelligence 2 or less spirit would be
fooled JUST by an "astrally dead" aura.
>
> Why? It could think it was a machine moving around.
I think there would be plenty of semi-independent
machines running around an average office building;
mail delivery, floor polishers, vacuum cleaners, etc.
So just look like you're sucking dusts and go
"Whhoooo" and you should be okay :).
>
> There is two ways to look at it, you either look
dead as in was once alive, in which case walking
around would be a bad idea; or you look like you've
never been alive to begin with i.e. machines or
inanimate objects.
> Martin

IMNSHO, you're a person - you look like a DEAD person.
Ergo, movement is bad.

But I wasn't too clear. The reason I think spirits of
average intelligence or better would see through it is
because they'd be smart enough to materialise to check
out this body that just happens to be lying around in
the hall. And then they're not fooled anymore, are
they?

MAYBE you could fool your average elemental with this.
They're pretty literal spirits. Sure, you could fool a
watcher. But a nature spirit tends to be more
free-thinking and is definitely more likely to check
out all the possibilities.

Like I said, you could do it - but simply masking
yourself to look dead on the astral wouldn't be enough
IMO.

*Doc' casts a masking spell to make himself look like
a corpse.

Doc' looks in the mirror and screams as he realises
he's turned himself into Michael Jackson...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 23
From: Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject: Advanced Metamagic
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:30:18 -0800
From: Rand Ratinac

> IMNSHO, you're a person - you look like a DEAD person.
> Ergo, movement is bad.

Okay, maybe not such a good example, but what I had in
mind is that dead things look a lot less obvious from
astral space. no flaring auras that shine for miles in
all directions with pretty colours. Simply that bit
should give you an edge, either in camouflage or semi
invisibility.
BTW, what happens if you cast invisibility, mask the
spell and mask your aura to 0?

> But I wasn't too clear. The reason I think spirits of
> average intelligence or better would see through it is
> because they'd be smart enough to materialise to check
> out this body that just happens to be lying around in
> the hall. And then they're not fooled anymore, are
> they?

Don't they hate to manifest? It seems to me that it might
be a bit too much trouble for a spirit. Along the lines
of sticking your hand in a bees nest to see if you've
killed the queen :). Maybe well-treated spirits or those
that have been attacked before might be willing to do so,
but otherwise I wouldn't have them manifest for this.
Plus we don't know how spirits think. It might seem
bloody obvious to us to stomp on something again just
to make sure it's dead, but they're not us.

> *Doc' casts a masking spell to make himself look like
> a corpse.

> Doc' looks in the mirror and screams as he realises
> he's turned himself into Michael Jackson...*

Exactly, that should keep most spirits out of your way
I'd say :).

Martin
- I aiten dead -

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