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Message no. 1
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:35:04 +0000
Hmmm...

Well, I've just got another few questions:
a) It is only logical to assume that a weapon system like Steyr
not only uses different ammo for different modes (like SMG ammo and
Carbine ammo), but you also have to buy Gas-Vents for each barrel
separately (like, buying a Gas-Vent for AR barrel does not give you
the same compensation for SMG)... I suppose I'm right (as I always am
:P)
Although OTOH I would assume that one optical scope is enough, since
you can refit it for various combos... Though that would be hardly
practical, as various modes (due to different ammo and barrels) would
have different ballistic characteristics, and you'd have to
recalibrate the scope after each change.

b) What is the legality of fetishes? Probably legal, though a Combat
spell fetish might be restricted. Of course, a normal cop wouldn't
prolly even recognize a fetish, but a magecop is entirely another
matter. (Oh, yeah, and are spell locks legal? What about foci? Esp.
weapon foci?)

c) What's the concealability of fetishes? It's not given (dang,
again), and a fetish can be a dead givaway that the person is a
mage/shaman. (Well, if you put it deep in your pocket, it's almost
impossible to notice it, but it's also difficult to reach for it in
the heat of combat, so I would assume most fetishes would be kept
hanging under your coat, or something like this. Perhaps in your
sleeve?)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
The Russian Express Card Moto: Don't Leave Home!
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:54:59 +0000
> a) It is only logical to assume that a weapon system like Steyr
> not only uses different ammo for different modes (like SMG ammo and
> Carbine ammo), but you also have to buy Gas-Vents for each barrel
> separately (like, buying a Gas-Vent for AR barrel does not give you
> the same compensation for SMG)... I suppose I'm right (as I always am
> :P)
> Although OTOH I would assume that one optical scope is enough, since
> you can refit it for various combos... Though that would be hardly
> practical, as various modes (due to different ammo and barrels) would
> have different ballistic characteristics, and you'd have to
> recalibrate the scope after each change.

That all sounds good....I allow my guys to use a Gas Vent for all
modes, they just have to add the time to remount it into the assembly
stage of the AUG-CSL. Otherwise we're in agreement.

> b) What is the legality of fetishes? Probably legal, though a Combat
> spell fetish might be restricted. Of course, a normal cop wouldn't
> prolly even recognize a fetish, but a magecop is entirely another
> matter. (Oh, yeah, and are spell locks legal? What about foci? Esp.
> weapon foci?)

In my world, fetishes are too little understood by the governments to
be well controlled. How does one legislate restricting a dead mouse?
Okay, so you can state that you don't like dead mice that were
captured by feeding them grain soaked in whiskey on a full moon, but
then the guy down the block rips open high quality pillows and sort
through the feather for a few hours to get a fetish to do the same
thing.

Foci are a different question. Spell locks are legal (my world),
weapon foci are as legal as the equivilent weapon, but the person
better be licensed to practice magic if he's buying it legally.

I think these issues are touched on briefly in Awakenings and the SR
Companion. (Cal free state and Lone Star too, I think). Can anyone
verify?

> c) What's the concealability of fetishes? It's not given (dang,
> again), and a fetish can be a dead givaway that the person is a
> mage/shaman. (Well, if you put it deep in your pocket, it's almost
> impossible to notice it, but it's also difficult to reach for it in
> the heat of combat, so I would assume most fetishes would be kept
> hanging under your coat, or something like this. Perhaps in your
> sleeve?)

<House rule>
Varies based on particular fetish. In general I tell my guys no more
than 4 fetishes can remain hidden and still be available with a
single action. If they want it available as a free action, they can
only hide 1, and that's by using it as jewelry/part of outfit. I
had one character who used different powders as his fetish. Kept
bags at his waist. Noticeable, but not obvious (until combat).
</house rule>


> Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
FIAWOL
> FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House
Scholae Palatinae
> The Russian Express Card Moto: Don't Leave Home!

Brett Borger aka SwiftOne- swiftone@***.edu; http://my.page.is.down ;
IMNSHO IIRC YMMV RTFFAQ (AA) (BB) (CC) {WHAT-THE} BYE(Now)
:)

Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 3
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:35:39 GMT
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike writes
>
> b) What is the legality of fetishes? Probably legal,
would seem reasonable. A lot of countries would want to see a license
for magic for a real one though.

> though a Combat spell fetish might be restricted.
A license for magic would almost certainly be required.

> Of course, a normal cop wouldn't prolly even recognize a fetish,
Theres also the problem of telling the real thing from 'shaman
wanabee lookalikes'

> but a magecop is entirely another matter.
True but they are pretty rare.

> (Oh, yeah, and are spell locks legal?
AFAIK, though a magic license seems reasonable, same as a handuns
perfectly fine but do boter to buy it leagally and tell us please (at
least in most places on Earth)

> What about foci? Esp. weapon foci?)
No reason why not, though the weapon focus also falls under whatever
laws govern the type of weapon it is as someone else noted. Again the
authorities would probably like a magic license.

In a lot of cases though unless you are a lot more legal than your
average PC the likelyhood of getting caught is so low (because you
need a decent astral scan of the fetishes/foci to really notice them)
that their illegality would be the least of your worries, a thief
trying to steal the items off you is probably a far greater risk than
Lonestar.

>
> c) What's the concealability of fetishes? It's not given (dang,
> again), and a fetish can be a dead givaway that the person is a
> mage/shaman.
If you festoon yourself with them yes. Thosuh telling a mage from a
wanabee in a coat hung with loads of fake ones is pretty difficult.
(without astral scanning)

> (Well, if you put it deep in your pocket, it's almost
> impossible to notice it, but it's also difficult to reach for it in
> the heat of combat,
True, but.

> so I would assume most fetishes would be kept
> hanging under your coat, or something like this. Perhaps in your
> sleeve?)
Simple matter of the magician has to find a way to store them
accesibly same as the sammie has to find a way to carry a gun such as
he can get at it easily. I generally don't bother too much unless
folks want to start carrying stacks of the things about, but common
sense says if you need maor than a handful of fetishes for a few
spells you either shouldn't be there (or should have planned to drain
yourself less badly) or shouldn't have so many of your heavily used
spells requiring inconvenient props.

Mark
Message no. 4
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:39:20 +0000
On 5 Nov 97, Brett Borger disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> In my world, fetishes are too little understood by the governments
> to be well controlled. How does one legislate restricting a dead
> mouse?
> Okay, so you can state that you don't like dead mice that were
> captured by feeding them grain soaked in whiskey on a full moon, but
> then the guy down the block rips open high quality pillows and sort
> through the feather for a few hours to get a fetish to do the same
> thing.

Hmmm... Yeah. I have to agree here. Besides, I think I'll have my
char using emotionally important objects as reusable fetishes (i.e.
his wedding ring, lucky bullet etc.)

> > c) What's the concealability of fetishes? It's not given (dang,

> <House rule>
> Varies based on particular fetish. In general I tell my guys no
> more than 4 fetishes can remain hidden and still be available with a
> single action. If they want it available as a free action, they can
> only hide 1, and that's by using it as jewelry/part of outfit. I
> had one character who used different powders as his fetish. Kept
> bags at his waist. Noticeable, but not obvious (until combat).
> </house rule>

I see... Well, it's a pretty nice rule. Though the limit of 1 I can
see as purely game-balance... If I have a ring, an earring and a
bullet hanging on a chain (just like a cross), they may be all
fetishes and won't be recognized as such.
Actually, I think even mages would not recognize fetishes. After all,
IIRC a fetish is not something inherently magical... Although it's
aura might reveal it's importance to the mage/shaman/whatever.


> > Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl;
http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
> > FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House
Scholae Palatinae

> Brett Borger aka SwiftOne- swiftone@***.edu; http://my.page.is.down
> ; IMNSHO IIRC YMMV RTFFAQ (AA) (BB) (CC) {WHAT-THE} BYE(Now) :)

LOL


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Behind every great man is his BUTT.
Message no. 5
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:49:01 +0000
In article <199711051425.PAA08481@*****.onet.pl>, "Leszek Karlik, aka
Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> writes
>a) It is only logical to assume that a weapon system like Steyr
>not only uses different ammo for different modes (like SMG ammo and
>Carbine ammo), but you also have to buy Gas-Vents for each barrel
>separately (like, buying a Gas-Vent for AR barrel does not give you
>the same compensation for SMG)... I suppose I'm right (as I always am
>:P)

I'd agree. Firing 9mm ammunition into a 5.56mm gas vent sounds painful.

>Although OTOH I would assume that one optical scope is enough, since
>you can refit it for various combos... Though that would be hardly
>practical, as various modes (due to different ammo and barrels) would
>have different ballistic characteristics, and you'd have to
>recalibrate the scope after each change.

Scope has four settings depending which mode the weapon's assembled as.
Could even, especially if smartlinked, sense automatically.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 6
From: Matthew Johnson <mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:34:35 -0700
> Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> writes
> >a) It is only logical to assume that a weapon system like Steyr
> >not only uses different ammo for different modes (like SMG ammo and
> >Carbine ammo), but you also have to buy Gas-Vents for each barrel
> >separately (like, buying a Gas-Vent for AR barrel does not give you
> >the same compensation for SMG)... I suppose I'm right (as I always am
> >:P)
Doesn't the Steyr use the same firing mechanism, with different attachments
for barrels, stocks, etc.? The clip is even standard for the weapon (40c),
so I believe it uses the same type of ammunition for all settings.

---------------------------
Matthew Johnson
mjohnson@*.arizona.edu
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~mjohnson
ftp://150.135.184.121 login: anonymous pw: email
----------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:04:07 +0100
Matthew Johnson said on 17:34/ 5 Nov 97...

> Doesn't the Steyr use the same firing mechanism, with different attachments
> for barrels, stocks, etc.? The clip is even standard for the weapon (40c),

That realy doesn't say much... It could use four different clips that all
hold 40 rounds for user-friendliness (to avoid "*click* Hey! I haven't
fired 40 rounds yet! Oh wait, I'm holding the SMG with its 32-round
clip...")

> so I believe it uses the same type of ammunition for all settings.

What I've done is slightly adjust the stats and things for the AUG-CSL to
make it a bit more like the real-world AUG. In my campaign, it fires
assault rifle ammo in all versions except the SMG (which uses SMG ammo),
and fires SA/BF/FA in all versions as well. Damages and ranges are also
modified. To sum up:

VERSION DAMAGE MODES RANGE GROUP AMMO USED
SMG 6M SA/BF/FA SMG SMG
Carbine 7M SA/BF/FA LMG Assault Rifle
Assault Rifle 8M SA/BF/FA Assault Rifle Assault Rifle
Light MG 9M SA/BF/FA Sporting Rifle Assault Rifle

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Would it make you feel much better, if it was you against the world?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:06:56 +0000
> VERSION DAMAGE MODES RANGE GROUP AMMO USED
> SMG 6M SA/BF/FA SMG SMG
> Carbine 7M SA/BF/FA LMG Assault Rifle
> Assault Rifle 8M SA/BF/FA Assault Rifle Assault Rifle
> Light MG 9M SA/BF/FA Sporting Rifle Assault Rifle

A fully automatic Sporting Rifle? (images of deer being vaporized by
a lead hose)

-=SwiftOne=-
*Do not engage the deer!*
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 9
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:07:16 +1100
> A fully automatic Sporting Rifle? (images of deer being vaporized by
> a lead hose)

In the words of Ben Elton, "Doesn't give the elk a lot of options, does
it?" :)

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"All right! Bovine intervention!!!" -- The Tick
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:28:14 -0500
On Wednesday, November 05, 1997 18:49, Paul J.
Adam[SMTP:shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK] wrote:
> In article <199711051425.PAA08481@*****.onet.pl>, "Leszek Karlik, aka
> Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> writes
> >a) It is only logical to assume that a weapon system like Steyr
> >not only uses different ammo for different modes (like SMG ammo and
> >Carbine ammo), but you also have to buy Gas-Vents for each barrel
> >separately (like, buying a Gas-Vent for AR barrel does not give you
> >the same compensation for SMG)... I suppose I'm right (as I always am
> >:P)
>
> I'd agree. Firing 9mm ammunition into a 5.56mm gas vent sounds painful.
>
> >Although OTOH I would assume that one optical scope is enough, since
> >you can refit it for various combos... Though that would be hardly
> >practical, as various modes (due to different ammo and barrels) would
> >have different ballistic characteristics, and you'd have to
> >recalibrate the scope after each change.
>
> Scope has four settings depending which mode the weapon's assembled as.
> Could even, especially if smartlinked, sense automatically.

My solution: in all modes, uses assault rifle ammo, doing assault rifle
damage, on appropriate range table. Advantages to SMG mode: more
concealable, less unwieldy in close quarters. Advantages to Carbine mode:
range, Advantages to AR mode, best compromise between range, bulk, and fire
modes. Advantages to LMG: belt-feed.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:30:38 +0100
Brett Borger said on 8:06/ 6 Nov 97...

> > VERSION DAMAGE MODES RANGE GROUP AMMO USED
> > SMG 6M SA/BF/FA SMG SMG
> > Carbine 7M SA/BF/FA LMG Assault Rifle
> > Assault Rifle 8M SA/BF/FA Assault Rifle Assault Rifle
> > Light MG 9M SA/BF/FA Sporting Rifle Assault Rifle
>
> A fully automatic Sporting Rifle? (images of deer being vaporized by
> a lead hose)

No, if you read better you'll spot that it uses assault rifle ammo and
does only marginally better damage than an assault rifle. The ranges used
are those of a sporting rifle, since that's one step up from an assault
rifle.

The LMG is just the longest-barreled version, so IMHO it should have
better range than all the others, and do slightly more damage as well.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Would it make you feel much better, if it was you against the world?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 12
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:01:40 -0500
At 02:28 PM 11/6/97 -0500, you wrote:

>> Scope has four settings depending which mode the weapon's assembled as.
>> Could even, especially if smartlinked, sense automatically.
>
>My solution: in all modes, uses assault rifle ammo, doing assault rifle
>damage, on appropriate range table. Advantages to SMG mode: more
>concealable, less unwieldy in close quarters. Advantages to Carbine mode:
>range, Advantages to AR mode, best compromise between range, bulk, and fire
>modes. Advantages to LMG: belt-feed.
>
Now, I'll freely admit that I'm not the gun expert on this list, but I'd
like to think I've picked a thing or two up from them. So, wouldn't having
a shorter barrel mean that there wouldn't be as much time for the expanding
gasses to accelerate the bullet, therefore resulting in less velocity,
causing less penetrating power. I'd think so, and given that, I'd peg the
damage level at M (assault rifle), but change the power depending on mode.

--DT
Message no. 13
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:36:36 -0500
On Thursday, November 06, 1997 16:01, David
Thompson[SMTP:david.s.thompson@****.EDU] wrote:
> At 02:28 PM 11/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >> Scope has four settings depending which mode the weapon's assembled
as.
> >> Could even, especially if smartlinked, sense automatically.
> >
> >My solution: in all modes, uses assault rifle ammo, doing assault rifle
> >damage, on appropriate range table. Advantages to SMG mode: more
> >concealable, less unwieldy in close quarters. Advantages to Carbine
mode:
> >range, Advantages to AR mode, best compromise between range, bulk, and
fire
> >modes. Advantages to LMG: belt-feed.
> >
> Now, I'll freely admit that I'm not the gun expert on this list, but I'd
> like to think I've picked a thing or two up from them. So, wouldn't
having
> a shorter barrel mean that there wouldn't be as much time for the
expanding
> gasses to accelerate the bullet, therefore resulting in less velocity,
> causing less penetrating power. I'd think so, and given that, I'd peg
the
> damage level at M (assault rifle), but change the power depending on
mode.

At the speeds involved, barrel length isn't going to affect power that
much. It is going to have a small effect on muzzle velocity, but the major
effect of a shorter barrel is that the round is going to be less accurate
(for a variety of reasons). For other reasons as well, I find it simpler to
just say an AUG-CSL has one damage code, and a rather restricted rangle
table set.

Oh, and AR's do L damage in my game.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 14
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:48:48 +0000
On 5 Nov 97 at 15:35, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> Hmmm...
>
> Well, I've just got another few questions:
> a) It is only logical to assume that a weapon system like Steyr not
> only uses different ammo for different modes (like SMG ammo and
> Carbine ammo), but you also have to buy Gas-Vents for each barrel
> separately (like, buying a Gas-Vent for AR barrel does not give you
> the same compensation for SMG)... I suppose I'm right (as I always
> am :P) Although OTOH I would assume that one optical scope is
> enough, since you can refit it for various combos... Though that
> would be hardly practical, as various modes (due to different ammo
> and barrels) would have different ballistic characteristics, and
> you'd have to recalibrate the scope after each change.


In RL weapons systems like Stoner are chambered for the same
cartridge, and thus use the same magazines. For that reason I
consider that all modes use the same ammunition and magazines. As to
Gas vent you are right, each barrel needs it own. One scope could
work, with a record of settings for each barrel.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A few good men... err.. questions.
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:20:42 +0100
David Thompson said on 16:01/ 6 Nov 97...

> Now, I'll freely admit that I'm not the gun expert on this list, but I'd
> like to think I've picked a thing or two up from them. So, wouldn't having
> a shorter barrel mean that there wouldn't be as much time for the expanding
> gasses to accelerate the bullet, therefore resulting in less velocity,
> causing less penetrating power. I'd think so, and given that, I'd peg the
> damage level at M (assault rifle), but change the power depending on mode.

Like the table I posted for the AUG-CSL, you mean? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Would it make you feel much better, if it was you against the world?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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