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Message no. 1
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: A few questions.
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 92 16:26:44 BST
Hope fully some kind person out there will be able to answer these,

1) Our group has just acquired a shaman who on looking through the manual (S1)
noticed the resuable combat fetish. After searching for some more info on the
said item (both in the grimorie and in S1) all I could come up with is a small
description of fetishes in 'first run', that they add 1 to the force of spells.
This however was for resuable fetishes. The only other thing I could compare
resuable fetishes with was spell focuses but the prices vary so much that I'm
sure I'm wrong. Can anyone please tell me how to use them ?

2) This is really down to bad wording in S1 but it has caused some confusion
in our group as to what should be the case. A magician casting combat spells
only has 'force of spell' + 'magic pool' + 'sorcery skill' dice to roll. For
resisting he only has 'any remaining magic pool' + 'willpower' dice to roll.
This is excluding any power focuses etc.

3) The smart gun as described in S1 is a strange thing. In the target modifiers
section of combat it states that you get -1 for smart goggles and -2 for a smart
gun. But the equipment prices say -1 for a smart gun adaptor and -2 for an
integral smartgun. We had been asuming this meant a person with a cybered
smartgun link and some form of smart gun gets -2 while a person with smart
goggles or shades (very handy for the phys adept while walking the streets)
only gets -1. However it could also be taken to mean that a gun which was bought
with an integral smart gun gives -2 while a gun which has been adapted gives
-1. Myself I favour the second interpretation as I wear glasses sometimes and
contact lenses other times and imagine that if a dot could be projected onto
either I'd still have the same advantage.

Well sorry to ramble on so,

--- The Powerhouse (16:25:50/17.10.92)
Message no. 2
From: Mary Margaret Danforth <mmd@***.UMD.EDU>
Subject: RE: A few questions.
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 92 11:58:47 -0400
>>>>>[ Let's see here... What I think you're talking about it a
reusable
fetish. An expendable fetish gives a magician an extra two dice for the spell
ONLY if he specifically learned the spell to be aided by a fetish. That is
if the magician already had the spell, but not specified as a fetish spell, he
could go get fetishes and they would give him no bonus. A reusable fetish
is just like an expendable fetish, except it only adds one die while casting
the spell, and it doesn't disintegrate like expendable fetishes do.

Casting spells: I got this from my friends who've taught me about magic,
'cuz there's no way in Hell that I'm going to ever be able to do it. The
magician rolls his magic pool + totem advantages (if he's a shaman) + the
force of the spell to cast it. As far as I understand it he does NOT get
his sorcery skill, because it is already in his magic pool. Magic Pool is
composed of Sorcery skill + Power Focus + Force of Ally (if you have one and
it's aiding you) + Spell Purpose Focus dice (if you are casting a spell for
which you have a spell purpose focus). For resisting Drain, the magician
has any remaining magic pool, and his willpower dice. That's how we've been
playing it, so if anyone wants to comment on it take a shot at it...

Smartgun Problems: I have no idea. I use the real tech, and all my guns
are SmartGun variants, so I don't really care... and If you're such a loser
as to not get the tech in your body, then I think that you shouldn't be able
to use a SmartGun! ]<<<<
--Tailhook (Look Ma/I can fly!)

(Sorry about slamming on SmartGun, I was in character!)
Message no. 3
From: "Erekosse, Magelord of Amber Keep" <dsk@*****.CACS.USL.EDU>
Subject: Re: A few questions.
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 11:47:34 -0600
>From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
>Subject: A few questions.

>1) Our group has just acquired a shaman who on looking through the manual (S1)
>noticed the resuable combat fetish. After searching for some more info on the
[....]
>sure I'm wrong. Can anyone please tell me how to use them ?

Fetishes - A fetish allows the caster to gain a force modifier for a particular
spell. The decision for this must be made at the time of learning the spell.
Once the spell has been learned in this manner, the caster is required to use
the specified fetish whenever the spell is cast. The benefit gained from
using a fetish is the ability to cast a spell at a force higher than the
casters magic without being subject to Physical Damage drain. Requiring the
use of an expendable fetish allows a force modifier of 2 while requiring a
reusable fetish allows a force modifier of 1. Example: Dark Wolf (wolf shaman)
decides she wants to be able to cast a force 7 sleep (mana blast) spell. She
finds/buys/develops the spell formula. She expends the time and karma to
learn the spell at force 6 with the proviso that she must use a reusable fetish
to cast the spell. When she does cast the spell, she may now cast the spell
at force 7 and not be subject to Physical Drain (assume her magic is still at
6); however, she is still subject to standard drain (stun damage) with a target
of 7. The limitation here is that since the spell was learned requiring a
fetish; it can not be cast without the fetish (or a replacement should the
original be lost/destroyed). Okay, enough on fetishes.

>2) This is really down to bad wording in S1 but it has caused some confusion
>in our group as to what should be the case. A magician casting combat spells
>only has 'force of spell' + 'magic pool' + 'sorcery skill' dice to roll. For
>resisting he only has 'any remaining magic pool' + 'willpower' dice to roll.
>This is excluding any power focuses etc.

Spell is cast using dice equal to the force of the spell plus totem bonus if
applicable plus any dice allocated from the magic pool. Remember dice allocated
at this time may not be used until the pool is restored. A mage resists
drain with dice equal to his will power plus any allocated from her magic pool.

Example: Dark Wolf (Wolf Shaman, Initiate Grade: 1, Power Focus: 2, Sorcery: 7)
Magic Pool: 7 (Sorcery) + 2 (Power Focus) + 3 (totem bonus when casting combat
& detection (+2 standard, +1 initiate grade) = 12
Situation: Dark wolf and her associates are facing off against a group of corp
security guards and a corp mage. She has her focus active. She allocates 3 of
her magic pool for spell defense leaving 9 (for casting combat or detection
spells) or 6 (for spells of other types). She decides to cast a manablast using
her reusable fetish. Manablast is a combat spell so she has a magic pool of 9.
She learned the spell at force 7 with an expendible fetish requirement allowing
her to cast the spell at force 9. She decides to cast at max force. She
decides to roll 14 dice: 9 from the force and 5 from her magic pool. This
leaves her with 4 dice in the magic pool. She rolls the success to determine
the outcome of the spell. She then rolls 9 dices (willpower of 5, remaining
magic pool of 4) to resist drain with a target of 9 (ouch, poor dark wolf).

>3) The smart gun as described in S1 is a strange thing. In the target modifiers
[...]

We've always played it that a smart gun link gave a -2 target modifier and
smart goggles/glasses gave a -1 modifier. We didn't care whether the hardware
on the weapon was built in or used an adapter. The rational was that the
information fed directly to the brain/optic nerve was more efficient than
second hand through goggles/glasses.

Just my .02Y.

Erekosse
erekosse@***.edu

Member (good standing) Nonsequitur Society of America:
We may not make sense, but we do love rasberry truffles!
Message no. 4
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: A few questions
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 11:15:26 BST
Ok here's a few more questions for all you rule fanatics.

1) How would you deal with mercury filled bullets (a small hole is drilled in
the bullet, filled with mercury then sealed with lead. When the bullet hits
the mercury continues forward and knocks the lead out) ?

2) I don't have grim 2 and grim 1 gives me no idea. But how long does
centering take ?
Does it a) Happen in the same action as spell casting.
b) Happen the action before.
c) Happen the whole turn before.
d) None of the above.

There was something else but it's slipped my mind for the moment.

Many thanks.
--
Phillip Steele |
|
P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk |
Message no. 5
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 17:04:31 +1000
P. Steele asks:

> 1) How would you deal with mercury filled bullets ...
I wouldn't allow them. Sounds like unnecessary realism to me. :-)

> 2) I don't have grim 2 and grim 1 gives me no idea. But how long does
> centering take ?

We always played it took a full round or two - using a) commonsense
(you can't spout some Latin verse, do a dance, etc. in a fraction of
a round), and b) being able to centre in less than that time makes
mages even more powerful. Maybe you like things that way...

Here's a return question - our GM has noticed that surprisingly
often, FASA modules fall apart if magic is used intelligently. The
impression we've always had was that FASA themselves didn't appreciate
how gross magicians are. Especially when the Grimoire I came out and
said the spell's victim had to resist against a target number of the
Sorcery skill, instead of the spell's Force! I gather they've reversed
their decision in the Grimoire II.

One last question - there seems to have been a consensus that
Physical Adepts in the 1st edition were overpowered. Was this
because GMs were allowing auto-successes to be used for things other
than the skill they'd been bought for? If that was the only objection,
I think the loss of auto successes was a sad way to correct this
misinterpretation...

luke
Message no. 6
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 10:34:52 EDT
>>>>> "Luke" == Luke Kendall <luke@********.canon.oz.au>
writes:

Luke> Here's a return question - our GM has noticed that surprisingly
Luke> often, FASA modules fall apart if magic is used intelligently. The
Luke> impression we've always had was that FASA themselves didn't
Luke> appreciate how gross magicians are. Especially when the Grimoire I
Luke> came out and said the spell's victim had to resist against a target
Luke> number of the Sorcery skill, instead of the spell's Force! I gather
Luke> they've reversed their decision in the Grimoire II.

Yep. Shadowrun II uses the Force of the spell as the T# to resist.

Luke> One last question - there seems to have been a consensus that
Luke> Physical Adepts in the 1st edition were overpowered. Was this
Luke> because GMs were allowing auto-successes to be used for things other
Luke> than the skill they'd been bought for? If that was the only
Luke> objection, I think the loss of auto successes was a sad way to
Luke> correct this misinterpretation...

No, but the autosuccesses were pushing PhysAds into the Superhero Zone.
Just an example, a PhysAd with something like 8 or 10 autosuccesses in
Athletics could jump out of an airplane at 5,000 feet, and land on the
sidewalk without a hitch. So they have extra dice now, instead.

--Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
PGP Public Key Block available upon request Ask about rat-pgp.el
||||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||||
Always remember, no matter where you go, there you are. --Buckaroo Banzai
Message no. 7
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: A Few Questions...
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:20:14 +1100
A belated Happy New Year to everyone!

Right, now for questions that occurred to me:

1. If you have a stacked focus (eg my Power 2/Spirit 2 focus) you can turn
each part on separately, right?
If one part is active and the other is not, can astral mages still ground
through it?
If one part is grounded through as above, is the other part still
functional (bearing in mind that you can bond the parts separately)?

2. Do bug spirits suffer wound modifiers? (This one's a BIGGIE in our
game...)

And a point I thought of after reading last week's talk about Killing
Hands: most PhysAds have good Unarmed Combat, right? So, surely you don't
NEED Killing Hands at D level - just get lotsa Unarmed Combat and stage
the damage up!

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Andrew Smith <bodycount.smith@****.PIPEX.COM>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 22:58:21 +0000
At 09:20 06/01/97 +1100, The Jestyr wrote:
>A belated Happy New Year to everyone!
>
>Right, now for questions that occurred to me:
>
>1. If you have a stacked focus (eg my Power 2/Spirit 2 focus) you can turn
>each part on separately, right?
>If one part is active and the other is not, can astral mages still ground
>through it?
>If one part is grounded through as above, is the other part still
>functional (bearing in mind that you can bond the parts separately)?
>

If there is one focus all powers should be active. If the focus is
destroyed both powers will be destroyed.

>2. Do bug spirits suffer wound modifiers? (This one's a BIGGIE in our
>game...)

I would use wound modifiers. A bugs TR plus innate powers allready make
them tough enough :)

>And a point I thought of after reading last week's talk about Killing
>Hands: most PhysAds have good Unarmed Combat, right? So, surely you don't
>NEED Killing Hands at D level - just get lotsa Unarmed Combat and stage
>the damage up!

Killing hands cause wound damage, normal unarmed combat inflicts only stun
damage. If you want to make sure your opponent stays down use killing hands :)
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:38:45 -0700
The Jestyr wrote:
|
| And a point I thought of after reading last week's talk about Killing
| Hands: most PhysAds have good Unarmed Combat, right? So, surely you don't
| NEED Killing Hands at D level - just get lotsa Unarmed Combat and stage
| the damage up!

If you really want to munch make a Troll PA with Killing
Hands Moderate. Then pump everything else into extra dice
of Unarmed Combat. The Troll's strength combined and his
+1 Reach added to this make him truely devastating in close
quarters.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 10
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 17:09:01 -0800
The Jestyr wrote:
>
> A belated Happy New Year to everyone!
>
> Right, now for questions that occurred to me:
>
> 1. If you have a stacked focus (eg my Power 2/Spirit 2 focus) you can turn
> each part on separately, right?
> If one part is active and the other is not, can astral mages still ground
> through it?
> If one part is grounded through as above, is the other part still
> functional (bearing in mind that you can bond the parts separately)?
>

If you allow bonding the foci seperately then perhaps but in the
grimoire is says you must bond all parts before any part is functional.
I have a question though does anybody out thier give stacked foci a
resistancew bonus when attacked, I feel that a power 2 spirit 2 should
be like a three when attacked or spells are cast at it and was just
wondering if anybody else used a similar system.
Message no. 11
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:11:16 +0000
On 6 Jan 97 at 9:20, The Jestyr wrote:
> 1. If you have a stacked focus (eg my Power 2/Spirit 2 focus) you can turn
> each part on separately, right?
Hm... you can? Haven't looked for rules, but ok, let's suppose you can...

> If one part is active and the other is not, can astral mages still ground
> through it?
Each active Focus has an astral presence. So if you have just a part of
the focus active, there is still an astral presence. And a physical
component. So all the requirements for grounding as per SRII, p. 139
are met.

> If one part is grounded through as above, is the other part still
> functional (bearing in mind that you can bond the parts separately)?
as long as the physical component isn't destroyed, there is IMHO no
reason why the "second" component should be damaged.

> 2. Do bug spirits suffer wound modifiers? (This one's a BIGGIE in our
> game...)
I wonder why? Why _shouldn't_ bug spirits suffer from damagae
modificators? Are there some special rules I haven't seen so far? Why
should _any_ creature have special rules?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 12
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:35:23 EST
On Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:20:14 +1100 The Jestyr
<jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU> writes:
>A belated Happy New Year to everyone!
>
>Right, now for questions that occurred to me:
>
>1. If you have a stacked focus (eg my Power 2/Spirit 2 focus) you can
turn
>each part on separately, right?

I believe so, yes. You do have to bond both before you can use either
one, however.

>If one part is active and the other is not, can astral mages still
ground
>through it?

I should think so.

>If one part is grounded through as above, is the other part still
>functional (bearing in mind that you can bond the parts separately)?

No. You have to bond the entire stacked focus before you can use it (p
27, Grimoire II)

>2. Do bug spirits suffer wound modifiers? (This one's a BIGGIE in
ourgame...)

Errrr....do normal spirits? I don't really know...

>And a point I thought of after reading last week's talk about Killing
>Hands: most PhysAds have good Unarmed Combat, right? So, surely you
don't
>NEED Killing Hands at D level - just get lotsa Unarmed Combat and stage
>the damage up!

Sure, you could do that-if you don't mind staging up 6 damage levels
(that would be 12 successes, for those not keeping count) to do the same
kind of damage. I can't think of many characters who have that kind of
skill, at least not for a long time:)

>Lady Jestyr
Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
Message no. 13
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:47:19 -0800
On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> > 2. Do bug spirits suffer wound modifiers? (This one's a BIGGIE in our
> > game...)
> I wonder why? Why _shouldn't_ bug spirits suffer from damagae
> modificators? Are there some special rules I haven't seen so far? Why
> should _any_ creature have special rules?
>
> Sascha
> --

Only source I can find is in SRII, magic section where it talks about
spirits, where it says "..spirits have normal condition monitors to keep
track of damage.." This could imply the associated penalties.

Of course the reasoning for why bug spirits SHOULDN'T have penalties is a
purely "evil GM" one...

~Tim-the-sometimes-"purely-evil"-GM
Message no. 14
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:00:27 -0500
The Jestyr wrote,
>
>Right, now for questions that occurred to me:
>
>1. If you have a stacked focus (eg my Power 2/Spirit 2 focus) you can turn
>each part on separately, right?
Yes
>If one part is active and the other is not, can astral mages still ground
>through it?
Yes
>If one part is grounded through as above, is the other part still
>functional (bearing in mind that you can bond the parts separately)?
You can only bond seperately if you are using a house rule for a
stacked focus. Grimoire rules does state that neither power can be used
intil the full bonding cost is paid. As far as still being functualy,
the answer is no. The creation of a stacked focus combines both powers
in its actual creation. The only way around this if the focus was not a
true stacked focus to begin with, like say two foci that are intertwined
and "locked" more or less together.
>
>2. Do bug spirits suffer wound modifiers? (This one's a BIGGIE in our
>game...)
Everything suffers wound penalties unless its demonstrating some new
unsual spirit power that the GM created.
>
>And a point I thought of after reading last week's talk about Killing
>Hands: most PhysAds have good Unarmed Combat, right? So, surely you don't
>NEED Killing Hands at D level - just get lotsa Unarmed Combat and stage
>the damage up!
Unless you're a big Fist of the North Star fan. <grin>




Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 15
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 02:15:29 -0500
At 09:20 AM 1/6/97 +1100, you wrote:
>A belated Happy New Year to everyone!
>
Back atcha Lady J...:)

>Right, now for questions that occurred to me:
>
>1. If you have a stacked focus (eg my Power 2/Spirit 2 focus) you can turn
>each part on separately, right?
>
Not sure, but off hand I would say sure...

>If one part is active and the other is not, can astral mages still ground
>through it?
>
It's still active... I would say definately yes...

>If one part is grounded through as above, is the other part still
>functional (bearing in mind that you can bond the parts separately)?
>
Yes, as long as the item is still intact. If it was a fireball spell, and
the focus was made of would or gold that would melt... Well....:):)

>2. Do bug spirits suffer wound modifiers? (This one's a BIGGIE in our
>game...)
>
Good question... I say yes, but then, I've only fought bugs (repeatedly),
not run them as GM (yet). I think they, like normal spirits, do though...

>And a point I thought of after reading last week's talk about Killing
>Hands: most PhysAds have good Unarmed Combat, right? So, surely you don't
>NEED Killing Hands at D level - just get lotsa Unarmed Combat and stage
>the damage up!
>
No, you don't necessarily NEED it, but it helps... After all, don't forget
the damage will usually get staged down a bit, and if it starts off as
physical...

And I've seen Physad's without much unarmed combat skill too...

Bull

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"Good Lord! I've heard of this - Cat juggling!"
-Steve Martin, "The Jerk"
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:33:01 +0100
The Jestyr said on 9:20/ 6 Jan 97...

> 1. If you have a stacked focus (eg my Power 2/Spirit 2 focus) you can turn
> each part on separately, right?

I'd say so, yes.

> If one part is active and the other is not, can astral mages still ground
> through it?

Only if you switch them all off would you get a non-groundable item.

> If one part is grounded through as above, is the other part still
> functional (bearing in mind that you can bond the parts separately)?

Probably, though I don't think any rulebook says anything about this; IOW
it's a GM's call (I'd let it depend on whether the focus itself is
destroyed, or only the astral component).

> 2. Do bug spirits suffer wound modifiers? (This one's a BIGGIE in our
> game...)

Everything else does, so I don't see why bugs shouldn't.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Suppress it if you can.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:25:35 -0500
The Jestyr wrote:

> A belated Happy New Year to everyone!

Woo Hoo! Happy New Year. :)

> Right, now for questions that occurred to me:

> 1. If you have a stacked focus (eg my Power 2/Spirit 2 focus) you can turn
> each part on separately, right?

This is not covered in the Grimmy (trust me, I have asked the same
question myself). You would have to make a house rule for this. Per
the responses of others, it could go either way.

> If one part is active and the other is not, can astral mages still ground
> through it?

This is a big yes, no matter how you look at it.

> If one part is grounded through as above, is the other part still
> functional (bearing in mind that you can bond the parts separately)?

Actually, you can't bond the parts seperately. Clarification: you CAN
pay karma in little bits until you have paid enough to bond the focus
(as per the rules for standard foci), but you have to pay ALL the karma
required to bind ALL parts of the stacked focus before you can use ANY
powers of the focus.

As far as stacked foci are concerned, there are some decent options out
there for house rules. Some are:

1. It's still one focus, but with a combination of two or more
different powers (i.e. power focus and combat spell focus). Thus, view
it as ONE focus and treat it as such all the way around...when one power
is available, the others are as well; only need one simple action to
turn it on/off; only one bond in astral space; always counted as the
total number of rating points toward focus addiction; must mask the
whole thing in order to get any benefits from masking the focus, etc.

2. It's one focus, but the two parts are considered to exist seperately
within it. Thus, each power is only available if that section of the
focus is turned on; 1 simple action to turn on EACH power; 2 bonds in
astral space; each section counts seperately toward focus addiction; can
mask each section of the focus seperately, etc.

I tend to lean toward version number 1, myself. I consider the
limitations of the focus a trade off for the cheaper karma cost to bond
the focus (ititial bonding, anyway). However, it's a house rule...use
whatever you like. The big thing to keep in mind is consistency (i.e.
if you consider it two seperate powers sectioned off in one focus, treat
it as such all the way around, etc.).

> 2. Do bug spirits suffer wound modifiers? (This one's a BIGGIE in our
> game...)

Yes, same condition boxes, etc.

Enjoy your new year. :)

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 18
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:01:26 -0500
> ~Tim-the-sometimes-"purely-evil"-GM

Does that make you mostly evil? <grin>
"No, he's just mostly evil, if he was purely evil then I wouldn't
have anything to work with." Miracle Max.
Message no. 19
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:30:49 +0000
|
|> ~Tim-the-sometimes-"purely-evil"-GM
|
|Does that make you mostly evil? <grin>
| "No, he's just mostly evil, if he was purely evil then I wouldn't
|have anything to work with." Miracle Max.
|

How DARE you call the dead errr Dread Pirate Roberts EVIL????

Naughty... he's gonna get you for that.....
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 20
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:12:34 -0500
Charles Baker[SMTP:karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM] wrote:

>If you allow bonding the foci seperately then perhaps but in the
>grimoire is says you must bond all parts before any part is functional.
>I have a question though does anybody out thier give stacked foci a
>resistancew bonus when attacked, I feel that a power 2 spirit 2 should
>be like a three when attacked or spells are cast at it and was just
>wondering if anybody else used a similar system.
>

Ummm, it's a Rating 4 focus. (You sum the ratings of the individual parts. Yes, this could
have dire effects in re: focus addiction.)


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Sucking all the chips off your system board with an industrial strength wet/dry vac is not
covered by your warranty
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Message no. 21
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:09:22 -0500
The Jestyr[SMTP:jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU] wrote:
>A belated Happy New Year to everyone!
>
>Right, now for questions that occurred to me:
>
>1. If you have a stacked focus (eg my Power 2/Spirit 2 focus) you can turn
>each part on separately, right?
>If one part is active and the other is not, can astral mages still ground
>through it?
>If one part is grounded through as above, is the other part still
>functional (bearing in mind that you can bond the parts separately)?

Nope. The focus is a single focus, and must be treated in all ways as such.
Tis is an extrapolation of the rules on p26 of the Grimoire 2ed. It also
makes sense to me. It also makes my life as a GM easier. This way the focus
has a single rating, doesn't change. It is also activated with a single
activate focus action.

>2. Do bug spirits suffer wound modifiers? (This one's a BIGGIE in our
>game...)

Yep. At least in my game. Any spirit suffers wound modifiers. Again, an
extrapolation of the rules on p65 of the Grimoire 2ed. under Healing
Spirits.

YMMV

>And a point I thought of after reading last week's talk about Killing
>Hands: most PhysAds have good Unarmed Combat, right? So, surely you don't
>NEED Killing Hands at D level - just get lotsa Unarmed Combat and stage
>the damage up!

Bingo.

>Lady Jestyr

Glad to see you're back


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Message no. 22
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:21:17 +0000
On 7 Jan 97 at 11:12, Jonathan Hurley wrote:
[Combined Focus]
> Ummm, it's a Rating 4 focus. (You sum the ratings of the individual
> parts. Yes, this could have dire effects in re: focus addiction.)
Apart from not formating your mail, you made a mistake here I think. At
leat I couldn't find any rule indicating that (OK, I just had a quick
glance at the rules, but I think I know them quite good...). Perhaps
you can point me where to look? Page, maybe even paragraph?

Thanx.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+I don't believe in love-+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |I need to forget her face
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | I see it still|
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de |I don't believe in love |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| it's never worth the |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | pain you feel.|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary --- Queensryche -+
Message no. 23
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:34:32 -0500
Sascha Pabst[SMTP:Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE] wrote:
>On 7 Jan 97 at 11:12, Jonathan Hurley wrote:
>[Combined Focus]
>> Ummm, it's a Rating 4 focus. (You sum the ratings of the individual
>> parts. Yes, this could have dire effects in re: focus addiction.)
>Apart from not formating your mail, you made a mistake here I think. At
>leat I couldn't find any rule indicating that (OK, I just had a quick
>glance at the rules, but I think I know them quite good...). Perhaps
>you can point me where to look? Page, maybe even paragraph?

(As a note, you are the first person to complain about my formatting. Well,
since I found out why MS-exchange was generating attachments for me...
<EmbG>)

Ugh. Se p26 Grimoire, under stacking enchantments. It never does come out and
say exactly what you want me to show you it says (i.e., it is activated as a
single focus.) However, it is noted to be a singular focus, and the sum of
the ratings of the foci are used throughout the enchantment process as a
target number. As I said in my earlier post, I was extrapolating from those
rules. I guess that means that "singular focus" is a house rule.

Sorry


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Message no. 24
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Few Questions...
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:22:50 -0600
On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, The Jestyr wrote:

> 1. If you have a stacked focus (eg my Power 2/Spirit 2 focus) you can turn
> each part on separately, right?
i suppose, sure.
> If one part is active and the other is not, can astral mages still ground
> through it?
yes.
> If one part is grounded through as above, is the other part still
> functional (bearing in mind that you can bond the parts separately)?
if the focus isn't physically destroyed, yes. (deadly damage from the
physical spell
> 2. Do bug spirits suffer wound modifiers? (This one's a BIGGIE in our
> game...)
yes.
>
> And a point I thought of after reading last week's talk about Killing
> Hands: most PhysAds have good Unarmed Combat, right? So, surely you don't
> NEED Killing Hands at D level - just get lotsa Unarmed Combat and stage
> the damage up!
gee, and then when U lose my magic points, U can still do something useful.

This was illustrated to me painfully when I ran Elven Fire. I compared
the grade four adept in the book there (robert eijima) to my character
(grade 4 from my PC days) That guy could have cleaned my clock!
Unarmed:9 armed:9 etc. Adepts should think twice about blowing wads of
karma on initiation (which can be wiped out by a mean GM with a
StimPatch) or spending in on skills. I'd spent over 60 karma on
initiations, and only 14 on skills. I saw the light, sort of.
Message no. 25
From: Ian Beck <100540.260@**********.COM>
Subject: A few questions
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:18:09 EDT
I have a few questions but I'm new to the list so forgive any stupid questions.

1) What is an immortal elf?Is it an elf munchkin?

2) I'm a part time GM/part time sorceror adept is it worth buying Grimoire 2?

3) I take it there is an official book with rules for shapers and vamps called
the Shadowrun companion is it available in England yet because I have trouble
getting the books.

4) Does anybody have suggestions of drain modifiers for the doughnut idea( for
area spells)?

Thanks in advance. :-)

Norritt
Message no. 26
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:40:41 -0600
Ian Beck wrote:
|
| I have a few questions but I'm new to the list so forgive any stupid questions

Okay, if you'll forgive any stupid answers :)
|
| 1) What is an immortal elf?Is it an elf munchkin?

An immortal elf is just that, an immortal elf. They're elves that
lived through Earth Dawn, survived the ebb of magic, and have made a
big come back. Most of the information is in some the SR Fiction
books, with more in Tir Tairn Gir(sp?), Tir Nan Og, Harlequin and
Harlequin's Back.

| 2) I'm a part time GM/part time sorceror adept is it worth buying Grimoire 2?

Yes. Check out Awakenings too. Just make sure you read each one a couple
times through before you start using them.

| 3) I take it there is an official book with rules for shapers and vamps called
| the Shadowrun companion is it available in England yet because I have trouble
| getting the books.

Well, the SC has rules for Shapers in it, and a lot more. It should be in
England by now.

| 4) Does anybody have suggestions of drain modifiers for the doughnut idea( for
| area spells)?

Uh.. someone else?

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 27
From: Greg Wright <greg.wright@*******.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:42:50 +0100
Norritt Wrote...

>I have a few questions but I'm new to the list so forgive any stupid
questions.
Questions are not stupid, just the attitudes of those who answer them in
a negative way to them!! (No Names )


>1) What is an immortal elf?Is it an elf munchkin?
No A Munchkin is a character created by a gamer who will twist and turn
rules to make thier character more powerful, An immortal is an elf that
is immortal, ( Do not let charcter play these as they are too powerful )

Questions
>2) I'm a part time GM/part time sorceror adept is it worth buying Grimoire 2?
Yes


>3) I take it there is an official book with rules for shapers and vamps
calledthe Shadowrun companion is it available in England yet because I
have trouble getting the books.
Yes Its in all good roleplay shops


>4) Does anybody have suggestions of drain modifiers for the doughnut idea(
for area spells)?
Pass

Grim Reaper
"It Sure Is Shocking, When Death Comes Knocking."
Grim_reaper@********.com


>
Message no. 28
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:51:21 -0600
At 11:18 8/5/97 EDT, you wrote:
>I have a few questions but I'm new to the list so forgive any stupid
questions.
>
>1) What is an immortal elf?Is it an elf munchkin?

No..it's an Elf, that's Immortal. Harlequin and Ehran are probably the two
most visible examples.

>2) I'm a part time GM/part time sorceror adept is it worth buying Grimoire 2?

Yup. It's one of the first 5 books every player/GM should own, IMO.

>3) I take it there is an official book with rules for shapers and vamps
called
>the Shadowrun companion is it available in England yet because I have trouble
>getting the books.

Shapeshifters yes, vampires no. There are quite a few British listmembers,
they should be able to point you in the right direction. Virgin Megastores
is pretty good, from what I've heard. Even though the name still makes me
laugh everytime I hear it.

ObNotSr: In Calgary Alberta, there's a store called. *ahem.* PMS Crafts.
Unless it's gone out of business.. or changed its name :)

-Adam


-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel
Message no. 29
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:53:23 -0400
At 11:18 AM 8/5/97 EDT, Ian Beck wrote these timeless words:
>I have a few questions but I'm new to the list so forgive any stupid
questions.
>
Well then!

First off, there are no TRULY stupid questions... Except, of course, the
ones I ask...;] Everything else seems well thought out and intelligent
compared to that! :]

And second...

Welcome!

+++++ BULL-BOT ACTIVATED
+++++ AUTO GREET INITIATED

Hello there, new list-member Norritt! Welcome to the Shadowrn Mailing List!

It's a great place, with good people and great discussion! hope ya like mail!

+++++ AUTO OFF TOPIC RANDOM GENERATOR v3.0 INITIATED
+++++ TOPIC #501

Got milk?

+++++ END AUTO GREET

Ok, now for your Questions...;]

>1) What is an immortal elf?Is it an elf munchkin?
>
Ummm... It's a little more than that...

Basically, (And this is no longer much of a secret anymore, so... No true
spoilers here), the IE (Immortal Elves) are certain VERY powerful elves
that have been around since Earthdawn. I won;t tell you WHO they are, but
they are incredibly powerful, know Magic unlike anything normal
spellcasters can learn (Usually), aand are just as untrustworthy as
Dragons, and are in the same class as Great Dragons...

>2) I'm a part time GM/part time sorceror adept is it worth buying Grimoire 2?
>
YES!

Even if you weren't playing a Magician type character, Grimmy is probably
the second book I'd recommend buying, after the BBB (Big Black Book, aka SR
2 Rulebook)

>3) I take it there is an official book with rules for shapers and vamps
called
>the Shadowrun companion is it available in England yet because I have trouble
>getting the books.
>
The Comanion has rules for Shapeshifters... (Munchkinny, to say the least,
but fun in the right campaign). And yes it is available in England.

The vampire (Which I assume you've seen talked about on the list) is a
homemade playable Character created by Your's Truly, though thwere are
several other versions kicking around the net. Oh, and it's FAR from
official...:]

>4) Does anybody have suggestions of drain modifiers for the doughnut idea(
for
>area spells)?
>
Ummm, I don;t do magic much, sorry...:]

I'm sure you'll have 60 other opinions within a day or so though...:]

>Thanks in advance. :-)
>
Glad to help..;]

>Norritt
>
Bull-the-Goin'-to-Gen-Con-Ork-Decker
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 30
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:14:35 +0100
|
|I have a few questions but I'm new to the list so forgive any stupid questions.
|
|1) What is an immortal elf?Is it an elf munchkin?

No. It's an NPC created by FASA who's been alive for several thousand years.
Harlequin and Ehran the Scribe are such "people".

In order to be a munchkin, they've got to be played by players....
:)

|2) I'm a part time GM/part time sorceror adept is it worth buying Grimoire 2?

Yes.

|3) I take it there is an official book with rules for shapers and vamps called
|the Shadowrun companion is it available in England yet because I have trouble
|getting the books.

It should be by now... It's been out for months....

|4) Does anybody have suggestions of drain modifiers for the doughnut idea( for
|area spells)?

?????
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 31
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:37:22 EDT
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:18:09 EDT Ian Beck <100540.260@**********.COM>
writes:
>I have a few questions but I'm new to the list so forgive any stupid
>questions.


Welcome to ShadowRN! Enjoy yourself, and avoid carp like the (VITAS)
plague:):):):)

>1) What is an immortal elf?Is it an elf munchkin?


Uh...yes. :) Actually, no, but they're despised about as much as
munchkins *sigh* The Immortal Elves (aka the IE) are a bunch of mostly
pre-SR, pre-Fifth World elves (usually about 5-7 thousand years old) who
seem to have had nothing better to do in the intervening years than take
places as various historical notables (kings, queens, artists, etc). All
of which smacks of revisionism:( They were a neat idea, but lost
something (realism) in the execution of the idea.


>2) I'm a part time GM/part time sorceror adept is it worth buying
>Grimoire 2?


All depends on what you're doing. If you feel the need to get access to
more powerful magical abilities and threats, yeah, I suppose it would be.
If you really only need more spells and foci, you probably don't need to
bother with it.


>3) I take it there is an official book with rules for shapers and
>vamps called
>the Shadowrun companion is it available in England yet because I have
>trouble
>getting the books.


It doesn't contain rules for vamps, and the rules on shapers are a bit
cheesy (Although, it's not easy to balance the idea...) Maybe one the
FASA reps or English listmembers can tell you if its available there.


>4) Does anybody have suggestions of drain modifiers for the doughnut
>idea( for
>area spells)?


Assuming you mean where the caster centers the spell on himself and
doesn't get hit? Just reverse-engineer Flame Aura and find out what
modifier was used to keep the flame from hurting the subject of the
spell. (hint: I think it's like a +1 to the Drain Target)


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 32
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:49:50 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-05 11:31:00 EDT, 100540.260@**********.COM (Ian
Beck) writes:

>
> 1) What is an immortal elf?Is it an elf munchkin?

Well, now that you think of it, yeah, I guess it's the Game Maker's munchkins
though, so that makes' it acceptable, or at least printable.

> 2) I'm a part time GM/part time sorceror adept is it worth buying Grimoire
2?

YES!!!

> 3) I take it there is an official book with rules for shapers and vamps
> called
> the Shadowrun companion is it available in England yet because I have
> trouble
> getting the books.

The rules just cover Shaper PCs, and have nothing to help with Vamp PCs,
sadly but not so sad as all that.

> 4) Does anybody have suggestions of drain modifiers for the doughnut idea(

> for
> area spells)?

OOOOH, somebody liked that? Damn, but Skylight would be shaking in his grave
(the name of the character who used those spells). We used a +1 Drain
Category modifier for the Combat Spells and a +1 Drain Category/ +1 Drain
Power for the Manipulation versions.

> Thanks in advance. :-)
> Norritt

Sure thing.
-K
Message no. 33
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:04:59 +0000
> >2) I'm a part time GM/part time sorceror adept is it worth buying Grimoire 2?
> >
> YES!
>
> Even if you weren't playing a Magician type character, Grimmy is probably
> the second book I'd recommend buying, after the BBB (Big Black Book, aka SR
> 2 Rulebook)
*spiffy shadows and smoke part.. a cheesy looking man appears from
within...
</Lurk Off>
He almost might wana wait for BBB2...

who knows when it'll find its way to him tho..

*wave*
</Lurk On>
* spiffy shadows and smoke appear surrounding the cheesy lookinng man
and taking him away....

Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca

Being in love... What a trip...
Message no. 34
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:10:51 -0500
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:21:31 +0100 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>Street Sam Catalogue, Shadowtech, Hmmmm.... Grimoire....
>Add to that VRII if you're running a decker and RBB2 (in a little
>while) if
>you're playing a Rigger....

Just to add......

My 5 would probably be the Cybertech, VR2.0, FoF, Corp Sec, And Corp
Shadowfiles.

My reasons for the last two would have to be: If your going to GM these
are a must if you want the runners to infiltrate a building. Corp
Shadowriles gives buttloads upon buttloads of run ideas if you ever run
dry. This would have to be my favorite book, because I look back through
it time and time again for new ideas for a run on a corp.


I was here
Here I was
Was I here
Sure I was
Gweedo
Message no. 35
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:36:37 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-06 01:59:46 EDT, you write:

> My 5 would probably be the Cybertech, VR2.0, FoF, Corp Sec, And Corp
> Shadowfiles.

My Fab Five are: BBB (Le Duh), Shadowtech(Legality codes and rules), VR2.0
(Essential for decent matrix work), Grimoire 2( You won't understand half the
magic references on this list without it, and is essential to continuing a
magician's development), and Rigger 2(I know it ain't out yet, but even if
you find RBB, don't buy it, it's riddled with inconsistencies, which I'll ask
about in a minute).

The next ones that aren't essential, but in my mind are really nice to
have, are FoF (for the god-like equipment lists), Cybertechnology('cause it's
real wiz if you ignore cybermancy, and again a god-like list for cyber),
Awakenings(for the additional rules and, you guessed it, god-like lists), and
SRCompanion(For the rules and ideas). IMO, if you've got all 9, everything
else is just icing. And too much icing makes me feel a bit sick. =)

Now, an inconsistency I came across tonight, and I'm praying I missed a
rule somewhere or that this is a typo, but flipping through RBB, I was
comparing the F-B Eagle and the EFA stats. What I want to know is, number
one, why does the F-B eagle move slower and carry less with a reduced
economy, and howinell do you explain an EFA with a maximum of EIGHTY-FOUR
FRAGGIN' AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Message no. 36
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:39:44 -0400
Grr.... I hate when I do that....

Anyways, this has to be a typo, or I'm missing a really big rule. Plus, why
does the F-B Eagle cost 10 times as much when it's the inferior aircraft? I
can see VTOL adding on to the price, but 1000% increase? Someone tell me
there's an errata dealing with this.....

Wolfstar
Message no. 37
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:43:04 +0100
Ian Beck said on 11:18/ 5 Aug 97...

> I have a few questions but I'm new to the list so forgive any stupid questions.

Welcome to the list! *tries to find activation command for the Bull-bot*

> 1) What is an immortal elf?Is it an elf munchkin?

Yes and no :) IEs are part of the Earthdawn <-> Shadowrun crossover thing;
when ED first came out FASA denied the two were tied together, but after a
while they admitted they were connected after all. IEs are basically elves
from ED who are still alive in SR. You can't play one in SR, though,
unless you're the GM. Try getting your hands on the Tir Tairngire
sourcebook, the Harlequin adventure (both out of print), or the
Harlequin's Back adventure (still available) for more information on them.

> 2) I'm a part time GM/part time sorceror adept is it worth buying Grimoire 2?

It's worth buying the Grimoire for any magician, IMHO. Especially for a
GM, since it gives you a few extra surprises for players even if there
isn't a magician in the party.

> 3) I take it there is an official book with rules for shapers and vamps called
> the Shadowrun companion is it available in England yet because I have trouble
> getting the books.

The Companion has only rules for shapeshifters, not vampires, but look
around on the net and you'll find several sets for both. (If you'd joined
the list a few days earlier, you'd have received Bull's vampire PC rules.)
It is available in the UK because that's where I mail-order 99% of my RPG
stuff from. Try Leisure Games on 0181-346 2327, they sell it for 8.99
pounds and send out mail orders very quickly.

> 4) Does anybody have suggestions of drain modifiers for the doughnut idea( for
> area spells)?

+1 Drain Level?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 38
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:43:04 +0100
George Metz said on 4:36/ 6 Aug 97...

> Now, an inconsistency I came across tonight, and I'm praying I missed a
> rule somewhere or that this is a typo, but flipping through RBB, I was
> comparing the F-B Eagle and the EFA stats. What I want to know is, number
> one, why does the F-B eagle move slower and carry less with a reduced
> economy

Because it's VTOL-capable and the EFA isn't? Harriers are really nice
jets. but their performance and carrying capacity isn't quite as high as
that of normal jets.

> and howinell do you explain an EFA with a maximum of EIGHTY-FOUR
> FRAGGIN' AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

You mean the text that it has a total of 84 CF of storage space on its
hardpoints? Yeah, that's a bit over the top :) I'd just allow one missile
per hardpoint, period.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 39
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:12:06 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-06 06:42:40 EDT, you write:

> > Now, an inconsistency I came across tonight, and I'm praying I missed a
> > rule somewhere or that this is a typo, but flipping through RBB, I was
> > comparing the F-B Eagle and the EFA stats. What I want to know is,
number
> > one, why does the F-B eagle move slower and carry less with a reduced
> > economy
>
> Because it's VTOL-capable and the EFA isn't? Harriers are really nice
> jets. but their performance and carrying capacity isn't quite as high as
> that of normal jets.

Close, but no cookie on the price. Not at a 1000% increase. I mean, yeah,
harriers are great, sure, but an EFA will fly rings around it in the speed
category, and the transition to hover isn't nearly as quick as RBB seems to
think it is. Newton's Laws and all that. Regardless, an appropriate price
might be anywhere from 200% to 500% over the EFA. It just seems obscene,
considering there isn't that kind of difference between a Harrier and an
F-5F/F-20 - what the EFA is loosely based on.

> > and howinell do you explain an EFA with a maximum of EIGHTY-FOUR
> > FRAGGIN' AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
>
> You mean the text that it has a total of 84 CF of storage space on its
> hardpoints? Yeah, that's a bit over the top :) I'd just allow one missile
> per hardpoint, period.

Hrmmmm... That limits it a lot. How's about multiply the CF of the missile
by 5? That way you can fit 2 advanced AAM's on the centerlines, two normal or
one advanced on each inner wing, and one normal on each outer wing point.
That makes more sense when you consider modern fighter load-outs than just
one per wing. Thoughts? Comments? Flames? =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 40
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:09:40 -0500
At 05-Aug-97 wrote Ian Beck:

>I have a few questions but I'm new to the list so forgive any stupid
>questions.

Welcome!!

>4) Does anybody have suggestions of drain modifiers for the doughnut idea(
for
>area spells)?

+1 Drainlevel and +1 draintarget

--
Barbie


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 41
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:39:23 +0100
In message <970806043942_-803146276@*******.mail.aol.com>, George Metz
<W0lfstar@***.COM> writes
> Grr.... I hate when I do that....
>
> Anyways, this has to be a typo, or I'm missing a really big rule. Plus, why
>does the F-B Eagle cost 10 times as much when it's the inferior aircraft? I
>can see VTOL adding on to the price, but 1000% increase? Someone tell me
>there's an errata dealing with this.....

Typo. Among other things, you can't even buy the sensors and ECM in the
EFA as listed for 5 million nuyen.

I see the 5M=Y= price for the EFA as being for a bare aircraft: engines,
controls, an ejection seat, and maybe a full tank of fuel if you buy
before the end of August :) Weapons, sensors, ECM/ECCM are all extra.

By comparison, the Eagle is sold fully equipped, needing only fuel and
ordnance to go into action.

Also, the EFA is obsolescent: if it's available on the open market, it's
of the same generation as the MiG-21 is today. Available (demilitarised)
to civilians, still in frontline service in some areas, able to be
effectively updated and overhauled: but still a decades-old design.

The tooling's all paid for, development was paid off thirty years or
more ago, and the manufacturers are selling new aircraft or refurbishing
old ones for flyaway cost plus profit.

By comparison, the Eagle is a modern combat aircraft. VTOL does push
cost up and capability down, but that's the price you pay for being able
to land almost anywhere you like.

There's also the issue that the Eagle will be a much more recent
aircraft, and so its development costs are still being amortised.



Real life example. The US Air Force is planning to buy 442 F-22 fighter
aircraft: the development programme, at over 15 billion dollars, equals
thirty-four million dollars per aircraft.

That's just what it cost to develop the design and produce the tooling:
the additional 100 million or so per aircraft for the materials and
labour to actually push an airframe out the door is the "flyaway cost".

By comparison, Lockheed-Martin are offering F-16Cs for $25 million
dollars apiece: because the design's nearly twenty years old, the
development costs were paid for long ago, and now all it costs L-M to
make another F-16 is the flyaway price: so they can sell them dirt cheap
and still make a profit.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 42
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:25:58 +0100
In message <970806043636_495529312@*******.mail.aol.com>, George Metz
<W0lfstar@***.COM> writes
> Now, an inconsistency I came across tonight, and I'm praying I missed a
>rule somewhere or that this is a typo, but flipping through RBB, I was
>comparing the F-B Eagle and the EFA stats. What I want to know is, number
>one, why does the F-B eagle move slower and carry less with a reduced
>economy,

The EFA is a conventional takeoff and landing aircraft, needing rather a
lot of paved runway. The Eagle is a VTOL-capable aircraft.

Compare a Harrier and a F/A-18 Hornet today, for instance. The Harrier's
slower and shorter-ranged, but its STOVL (short take off, vertical
landing) capability is worth the penalty in many cases.

>and howinell do you explain an EFA with a maximum of EIGHTY-FOUR
>FRAGGIN' AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Well, I remember the old Wasp project, which would have packaged twelve
guided anti-tank missiles into an underwing pod, and you could nominally
carry four or six pods for a total of up to 72 missiles...

The hardpoints are rated by weight, not capacity. Nominally, you could
put 120 Sidewinders on a F-15, for instance (Sidewinders are 200lb each,
and the Eagle can carry 24,000lb of weapons...) but nobody's ever tried,
nor are they likely to.

You'll typically get one to three missiles per hardpoint at most. The
usual loads today are four longer-range AAMs and two or four short-range
dogfight missiles, for an air-superiority fighter.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 43
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:32:43 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-06 13:57:06 EDT, you write:

> Real life example. The US Air Force is planning to buy 442 F-22 fighter
> aircraft: the development programme, at over 15 billion dollars, equals
> thirty-four million dollars per aircraft.
>
> That's just what it cost to develop the design and produce the tooling:
> the additional 100 million or so per aircraft for the materials and
> labour to actually push an airframe out the door is the "flyaway cost".
>
> By comparison, Lockheed-Martin are offering F-16Cs for $25 million
> dollars apiece: because the design's nearly twenty years old, the
> development costs were paid for long ago, and now all it costs L-M to
> make another F-16 is the flyaway price: so they can sell them dirt cheap
> and still make a profit.

Thank you for validating my point. You see, the F-22 has several unusual
control surfaces, a more advanced fly-by-wire, tactical, and Heads-Up
computer, which accounts for part of the price increase. Another is the
materials used in the frame of the F-22 to make it light enough to break mach
without afterburners, while strong enough to handle the stress. And then
there's the biggest difference of all - the engines. The engines they slapped
into the F-22 has a higher thrust-to-weight ratio than the F-16's per engine.
Then there's also the fact that the F-22 has TWO engines to the F-16's ONE,
and that jacks up the price.
Basically, I can't see the price difference making sense. The price as
listed as for the plane with the equipment listed. As for the Sensors/ECM,
reverse engineer it. If you can reduce the CF by increasing the cost, why
can't you reduce the cost by increasing the CF. Would explain that....

Wolfstar
Message no. 44
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:33:57 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-06 14:04:54 EDT, you write:

> The EFA is a conventional takeoff and landing aircraft, needing rather a
> lot of paved runway. The Eagle is a VTOL-capable aircraft.
>
> Compare a Harrier and a F/A-18 Hornet today, for instance. The Harrier's
> slower and shorter-ranged, but its STOVL (short take off, vertical
> landing) capability is worth the penalty in many cases.

Actually, the EFA comes closest to the USAF/USN F-5F Freedom, exported as
the F-20 Tigershark. The lines are exceptionally similar, and both aircraft
fill the same role, so to speak. But even the price difference between those
two isn't that significant.

Wolfstar
Message no. 45
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:23:27 +0100
George Metz said on 7:12/ 6 Aug 97...

> > You mean the text that it has a total of 84 CF of storage space on its
> > hardpoints? Yeah, that's a bit over the top :) I'd just allow one missile
> > per hardpoint, period.
>
> Hrmmmm... That limits it a lot. How's about multiply the CF of the missile
> by 5? That way you can fit 2 advanced AAM's on the centerlines, two normal or
> one advanced on each inner wing, and one normal on each outer wing point.
> That makes more sense when you consider modern fighter load-outs than just
> one per wing. Thoughts? Comments? Flames? =)

That is something I was also thinking about, although since you're
comparing this to modern fighters, most of them carry one missile per
attachment point (often with the exception of small- to medium-sized
AGMs). Multiplying CF requirements by 10 should work well though, for
those rare cases when PCs will acquire an EFA with a load of spare
weaponry :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 46
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:56:00 GMT
on 06.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:

W> Close, but no cookie on the price. Not at a 1000% increase. I mean, yeah,
W> harriers are great, sure, but an EFA will fly rings around it in the speed
W> category,

Harriers are nice as strike-bombers. DON'T use them as fighters. You don't
dogfight an F-117, do you?

W> and the transition to hover isn't nearly as quick as RBB seems to
W> think it is. Newton's Laws and all that.

Yup. Getting down from mach 2 to 0, takes some time.

W> Regardless, an appropriate price
W> might be anywhere from 200% to 500% over the EFA. It just seems obscene,
W> considering there isn't that kind of difference between a Harrier and an
W> F-5F/F-20 - what the EFA is loosely based on.

There is a *hugh* difference between the EFA and the Harrier, but that
doesn't matter. In SR, the EFA is 60 years older than the Eagle. That's at
least 20 years out of date. It can't be better.

by
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 47
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:47:00 GMT
on 06.08.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:

g> > Now, an inconsistency I came across tonight, and I'm praying I missed a
g> > rule somewhere or that this is a typo, but flipping through RBB, I was
g> > comparing the F-B Eagle and the EFA stats. What I want to know is, number
g> > one, why does the F-B eagle move slower and carry less with a reduced
g> > economy
g>
g> Because it's VTOL-capable and the EFA isn't? Harriers are really nice
g> jets. but their performance and carrying capacity isn't quite as high as
g> that of normal jets.

[Taking out my, ATF and my TFX handbook. Never thought they would be
usefull for SR. THX to Janes :))]

The Harrier (FRS. Mark I) has a delta V of mach 1,25, and a max. load
(including fuel) of 5506kg and max, weapon load is 3630kg.
The turbofan does a max. performance of 95,6 kN

The EFA has a delta V of mach 2, a max. load of 11250kg and the fans do
60kN normal thrust and 90kN with activated afterburner

So, you're right, the Harrier isn't as powerful as the EFA, but I don't
buy your explanation in SR. The EFA is 60 years old, but the Eagle is
brand new. That's like letting a P-51 Mustang fight an F-22. That's bogus.
And where are the *real* fighters? Where is the thing that replaced the F-
22? Where's the Nighthawk 2? And don't think everything the SR-world has
is a heap of out of date fighterplanes from the last century and some
underpowered strike-bombers. Hey FASA, we want fighters, we want tanks, we
want attack helicopters! We want the 'Technical Readout: 2057'


Yeah....


## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 48
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:01:05 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-06 20:15:35 EDT, you write:

> There is a *hugh* difference between the EFA and the Harrier, but that
> doesn't matter. In SR, the EFA is 60 years older than the Eagle. That's at
> least 20 years out of date. It can't be better.

Actually, the EFA is 38 years old in '58, having been released in 2050. The
Eagle is about 25 years younger. And it's obsolete in military terms. In
military terms, once the costs for upgrades reach 5% of the cost of a
replacement, it's obsolete. The F-4 Phantom II was retired about 6 or 7 years
ago, and it can STILL outfly some of the more modern birds. It's got a
tighter turn than the F-14, and is only slightly slower coming out of it. The
F-16 can turn tighter, but it loses too much speed. Obsolete is a matter of
opinion. The EFA is a better bird than the Eagle. If someone could point me
in the direction of another fighter aircraft, I'd be glad to take a look at
the latest and greatest, but until then, the EFA is Ultimate.
BTW, there is a point to this, I'm working on a merc-style game at the
moment, and I'm planning the adversarial force. <EGMG>

Wolfstar
Message no. 49
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 05:03:44 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 00:19:36 EDT, you write:

> > Hrmmmm... That limits it a lot. How's about multiply the CF of the
missile
> > by 5? That way you can fit 2 advanced AAM's on the centerlines, two
normal
> or
> > one advanced on each inner wing, and one normal on each outer wing
point.
> > That makes more sense when you consider modern fighter load-outs than
just
> > one per wing. Thoughts? Comments? Flames? =)
>
> That is something I was also thinking about, although since you're
> comparing this to modern fighters, most of them carry one missile per
> attachment point (often with the exception of small- to medium-sized
> AGMs). Multiplying CF requirements by 10 should work well though, for
> those rare cases when PCs will acquire an EFA with a load of spare
> weaponry :)

Well, the reason I suggested a multiplier of 5 is, IIRC, the F-15 is
considered to have two centerline hardpoints, but it mounts 4 missiles on
those two hardpoints (could we have a confirmation from Jane's, Please? =) ),
but 10 works just as well. What about gun pods, though? 84 CF is a LOT of
Guns & Ammo (tm).....
Oh, and the PC's won't be acquiring one, they'll be getting shot at by one.
<EGMG>

Wolfstar
Message no. 50
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:28:20 GMT
Tobias Berghoff writes
>
> Harriers are nice as strike-bombers. DON'T use them as fighters. You don't
> dogfight an F-117, do you?
>
Harriers make pretty nasty dogfighters thanks thrust vectoring.
Simple fact of the matter is in a tight turning dogfight nothing can
go supersonic because its all about turning circle, why these
vectoring jets for normal jet engines are recieving so much
attention, the faster you go the larger you turn, the guy with 97
degrees of thrust vectoring has a nasty advantage in getting his nose
pointing in your direction. Sure in some types of air to air combat
they aren't so good but.

> Yup. Getting down from mach 2 to 0, takes some time.
>
depends on how you do it :), but yes if you want to be in one piece
afterwards.

Mark
Message no. 51
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:40:43 +0100
Tobias Berghoff said on 19:56/ 6 Aug 97...

> Harriers are nice as strike-bombers. DON'T use them as fighters. You don't
> dogfight an F-117, do you?

Comparing a Harrier to an F-117 is also a bit skewed IMHO... Remember that
British Royal Navy Sea Harriers shot down quite some Argentinians in 1982.
An F-117 OTOH doesn't even have any air-to-air weapons at all.

> There is a *hugh* difference between the EFA and the Harrier, but that
> doesn't matter.

What, you mean one refers to itself as "me," and the other goes
"Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 52
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:40:43 +0100
George Metz said on 5:03/ 7 Aug 97...

> Well, the reason I suggested a multiplier of 5 is, IIRC, the F-15 is
> considered to have two centerline hardpoints, but it mounts 4 missiles on
> those two hardpoints (could we have a confirmation from Jane's, Please? =) ),

An F15 has a single centerline pylon, usually used for a fuel tank. On
each side of the fuselage are two hardpoints for one AIM-7 or AIM-120
missile each; then there's a pylon under each wing which is again mostly
used for a fuel tank, but each of those has mounting rails for two AIM-9
missiles as well that don't interfere with whatever else is on the pylon.
Most pictures of F-15s (except F-15E Strike Eagles) you see show them with
three external fuel tanks, four AIM-9s, and either four AIM-7s or four
AIM-120s, or a mix of the two.

> but 10 works just as well. What about gun pods, though? 84 CF is a LOT of
> Guns & Ammo (tm).....

Well, ammo for gun pods isn't normally stored inside the aircraft but in
the pod itself. So make a pod that takes up 10 CF and affords 5 CF of ammo
space or something...

> Oh, and the PC's won't be acquiring one, they'll be getting shot at by one.
> <EGMG>

That's the only way they should get to deal with them :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 53
From: "Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:22:19 -0400
On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, George Metz wrote:

->In a message dated 97-08-07 00:19:36 EDT, you write:
->
-> Well, the reason I suggested a multiplier of 5 is, IIRC, the F-15 is
->considered to have two centerline hardpoints, but it mounts 4 missiles on
->those two hardpoints (could we have a confirmation from Jane's, Please? =) ),
->but 10 works just as well. What about gun pods, though? 84 CF is a LOT of
->Guns & Ammo (tm).....
-> Oh, and the PC's won't be acquiring one, they'll be getting shot at by one.
-><EGMG>
->
-> Wolfstar
->
As a Former F-15E avionics tech I can tell you that the Eagle does
indeed carry 2 missles on each of the body hardpoints. The Centerline
is only used to carry a Fuel tank or occasionally a single 2000lb
(900kg) bomb or 3 500lb(225kg) bombs. There are 2 hardpoints on
each wing. The interior ones are used to carry weapons and typically
carry 2 AAM's and 1 other store, either a fuel tank or some kind of
air to ground weapon (bombs, rockets, etc). The outer hardpoints I
have no idea what they are used for as I have never seen anything
mounted on them and I suspect they are only capable of carrying fuel
or cargo containers. Also on the F-15E modle which is a fighter bomber
the body hardpoints are capable of mounting conformal fueltanks
instead of missles. These CFT's have 2 missle mounts and between 1 and
3 bomb mounts each. The total external load this puppy can carry
with the CFT's mounted is 8 AAM's, 12 500lb(225kg) bombs, and a
centerline fuel tank, or 8 AAM's, 4 2000lb(900kg) bombs, and a
centerline fuel tank. There are a few other posable weapons outfits
but these are the most common.
Message no. 54
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:54:16 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 06:41:39 EDT, you write:

> > Harriers are nice as strike-bombers. DON'T use them as fighters. You don'
> t
> > dogfight an F-117, do you?
>
> Comparing a Harrier to an F-117 is also a bit skewed IMHO... Remember that
> British Royal Navy Sea Harriers shot down quite some Argentinians in 1982.
> An F-117 OTOH doesn't even have any air-to-air weapons at all.

True, but it's inherent instability would give it some good manuevering in a
dogfight. It's more weapons placement than anything.

> > There is a *hugh* difference between the EFA and the Harrier, but that
> > doesn't matter.
>
> What, you mean one refers to itself as "me," and the other goes
> "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"? :)

Only you, Gurth, would come up with that...... I say the harrier would say
me. =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 55
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:10:39 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 06:46:19 EDT, you write:

> An F15 has a single centerline pylon, usually used for a fuel tank. On
> each side of the fuselage are two hardpoints for one AIM-7 or AIM-120
> missile each; then there's a pylon under each wing which is again mostly
> used for a fuel tank, but each of those has mounting rails for two AIM-9
> missiles as well that don't interfere with whatever else is on the pylon.
> Most pictures of F-15s (except F-15E Strike Eagles) you see show them with
> three external fuel tanks, four AIM-9s, and either four AIM-7s or four
> AIM-120s, or a mix of the two.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. I just considering the two hardpoints to
either side of the fuselage tank mount to be one hardpoint each. (BTW, I've
got a great photo of the underside of a Zulu Alert bird out of Bitburg; she's
only got one external tank. I think the other two are for extended range
flights.)

> > but 10 works just as well. What about gun pods, though? 84 CF is a LOT
of
> > Guns & Ammo (tm).....
>
> Well, ammo for gun pods isn't normally stored inside the aircraft but in
> the pod itself. So make a pod that takes up 10 CF and affords 5 CF of ammo
> space or something...

That sounds reasonable. I'll try the load out and see what happens in some
dry runs.

Wolfstar
Message no. 56
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:51:36 +0100
In message <970806153356_294576493@*******.mail.aol.com>, George Metz
<W0lfstar@***.COM> writes
>In a message dated 97-08-06 14:04:54 EDT, you write:
>> The EFA is a conventional takeoff and landing aircraft, needing rather a
>> lot of paved runway. The Eagle is a VTOL-capable aircraft.
>>
>> Compare a Harrier and a F/A-18 Hornet today, for instance. The Harrier's
>> slower and shorter-ranged, but its STOVL (short take off, vertical
>> landing) capability is worth the penalty in many cases.
>
> Actually, the EFA comes closest to the USAF/USN F-5F Freedom, exported as
>the F-20 Tigershark. The lines are exceptionally similar, and both aircraft
>fill the same role, so to speak. But even the price difference between those
>two isn't that significant.

The "real" Eurofighter is no F-20, it's designed to hunt and killed F-
15s or Su-27s. In-service date is planned for 2002.

Assuming that's the case, though, what's the cost of a Harrier GR.7 or
AV-8B+ compared to a F-5 or MiG-21 (first flights 1959 and 1957
respectively) if you go shopping today? You can pick up MiG-21s for a
hundred thousand dollars each, buyer to collect, and they remain useful
aircraft with a lot of update potential.




--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 57
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:49:26 +0100
In message <970807165414_1814540877@*******.mail.aol.com>, George Metz
<W0lfstar@***.COM> writes
>In a message dated 97-08-07 06:41:39 EDT, you write:
>> Comparing a Harrier to an F-117 is also a bit skewed IMHO... Remember that
>> British Royal Navy Sea Harriers shot down quite some Argentinians in 1982.
>> An F-117 OTOH doesn't even have any air-to-air weapons at all.
>
> True, but it's inherent instability would give it some good manuevering in a
>dogfight. It's more weapons placement than anything.

The inherent instability is cancelled out by the FBW. The F-117 doesn't
exploit instability the way that the F-16 or the EF2000 or the JAS.39
do, it struggles to cancel it out and cope with it.v

And the F-117 has _no_ air-to-air weapons, not even self-defence
Sidewinders.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 58
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:25:00 GMT
on 07.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:

W> > There is a *hugh* difference between the EFA and the Harrier, but that
W> > doesn't matter. In SR, the EFA is 60 years older than the Eagle. That's
W> > at least 20 years out of date. It can't be better.
W>
W> Actually, the EFA is 38 years old in '58, having been released in 2050.

You mean it's released in 2020? I'm not an expert, but I think, it's
supposed to be out (in mass production) by 2005 or something like that.

W> The Eagle is about 25 years younger. And it's obsolete in military terms.

Yup! I guess it was, when FB introduces it...

W> The EFA is a better bird than the Eagle.

....and this is rather strange.....

W> If someone
W> could point me in the direction of another fighter aircraft, I'd be glad to
W> take a look at the latest and greatest, but until then, the EFA is
W> Ultimate.

In our game, we take stuff out of the Battletech Technical Readouts, if we
need *real* military stuff. No Mechs, of course, but the fighters and
tanks a really nice for SR...


W> BTW, there is a point to this, I'm working on a merc-style game
W> at the moment, and I'm planning the adversarial force. <EGMG>

sound like fun


Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 59
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: A few questions)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:48:00 GMT
on 07.08.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:

g> Comparing a Harrier to an F-117 is also a bit skewed IMHO... Remember that
g> British Royal Navy Sea Harriers shot down quite some Argentinians in 1982.
g> An F-117 OTOH doesn't even have any air-to-air weapons at all.

It was supposed to be that way....:)

g> > There is a *hugh* difference between the EFA and the Harrier, but that
g> > doesn't matter.
g>
g> What, you mean one refers to itself as "me," and the other goes
g> "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"? :)

....welll.....ermmmm....borg-jets?!?!?!

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 60
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: A few questions
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:20:15 +0000
Hmmm...

I'm creating a new character, and tinkering with a few character
concepts, but I've stumbled upon a few questions I've decided I'll
let the Enlightened.List.Members and Military.Gurus answer my
questions (besides, you'll have the priviliege of upping the no of
messes sent... Gurth, ya hearing me? ;P ).
So, fire away:
a) Is there any FASA-info about Imperial SpecForces (no, I don't mean
for Star Wars, I mean Imperial Japan)? Or about Imperial Japan
(and it's "protection" of San Francisco) for that matter?
b) What is the average age of current-day Special Forces soldiers?
And what is the age you can expect a Team (like in SEAL Teams) leader
to be?
c) I need some names for Japanese companies producing weapons. Do
Renraku or MCT produce weapons?

and
d) What is the price of AUG-CSL system and what are it's frills (I
remember it has a built-in laser sight)? I dont want to bother
phoning my GM...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Save fuel - burn an Arab.
Message no. 61
From: "Logan Graves <Fenris>" <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:03:20 -0500
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
>
> So, fire away:
> a) Is there any FASA-info about Imperial SpecForces (no, I don't mean
> for Star Wars, I mean Imperial Japan)? Or about Imperial Japan
> (and it's "protection" of San Francisco) for that matter?
> b) What is the average age of current-day Special Forces soldiers?
> And what is the age you can expect a Team (like in SEAL Teams) leader
> to be?

Go to: http://www.sainet.or.jp/~fatcat/index-e.html This is the
"Japanese Imperial State Project." It has a wealth of useful
roleplaying-type information on Japan.


> c) I need some names for Japanese companies producing weapons. Do
> Renraku or MCT produce weapons?

Well <*ahem!*>, according to the BKK's Corp. Listings (aka. Nigel
Findley's "Corp Shadowfiles"), Renraku, Shiawase, and Yamatetsu are all
somewhat equally into "Military Tech" (6 out of 10+ pts apiece). But
"weapons manufacturing" kinda depends on how the corps structure their
Major Interests. Here's a much abbreviated table. (I threw in Ares for
comparison):

MTC 'Raku Shiawase Yamatetsu Ares
Aerospace 3 3 6 6 11
Chemicals 8 5 7 6 5
Heavy Industry 9 5 9 3 7
Military Tech 3 6 6 6 10

<plug>
Check the BKK for *all* your Corp Dirt!
</plug>
--Fenris
_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) "If nobody in the world was violent,
I could conqure the whole stupid
planet with a butter knife."
(>) --Dogbert
Message no. 62
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:33:04 GMT
Leszek Karlik writes
>
> a) Is there any FASA-info about Imperial SpecForces (no, I don't mean
> for Star Wars, I mean Imperial Japan)?
not much AFAIK. The web project someone else pointed you ats probably
a good place to start.
There are some comments about one or two things in the Cal free state
sourcebook, i think a Japanese crusier gets mentioned but nothing
thats going to help much.

> Or about Imperial Japan
> (and it's "protection" of San Francisco) for that matter?
See Cal free state for anything there is but not much really.

> c) I need some names for Japanese companies producing weapons. Do
> Renraku or MCT produce weapons?
>
They probably do but probably not much, being AAA megas they probably
own a subsiduary someplace that makes guns. The Japan web project may
have an answer, or just invent a suitable corporation name. I wouldn't
be surprised if at least the Red Samuria don't have Renraku weapons
even if they cost more to make em than buy off Ares simply as a
publicity matter.

Mark
Message no. 63
From: adonis <adonis@******.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:22:40 -0500
> a) Is there any FASA-info about Imperial SpecForces (no, I don't mean
> for Star Wars, I mean Imperial Japan)? Or about Imperial Japan
> (and it's "protection" of San Francisco) for that matter?

Not that I know of....IOW the Imperial Protectorate is the "main" police
force in SF, along with Lone Star and Knight Errant.

We get most of our info from other sources such as Rifts: Japan, and this
Japanese Animie mag called Kira, Kiva, or something like that :) Plus
there's a bunch of info on the net about Japanese Corps from other games.

SOOiCydE
Message no. 64
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:59:18 -0700
Quoth Leszek Karlik, aka Mike:
>
> Hmmm...
>
> I'm creating a new character, and tinkering with a few character
> concepts, but I've stumbled upon a few questions I've decided I'll
> let the Enlightened.List.Members and Military.Gurus answer my
> questions (besides, you'll have the priviliege of upping the no of
> messes sent... Gurth, ya hearing me? ;P ).
> So, fire away:
> a) Is there any FASA-info about Imperial SpecForces (no, I don't mean
> for Star Wars, I mean Imperial Japan)? Or about Imperial Japan
> (and it's "protection" of San Francisco) for that matter?

I haven't seen any myself, but I can give you some ideas. I was in a
great campaign that started in Los Angeles before CalFreestate came out.
The Imperial Marines were pretty scary as the area was basically colonial
and there was alot of opposition. The standard marines walking around
all had medium military armor and quite a few were carrying plasma
shock rifles (I think they came out of an issue of KaGe). They made the
Red Samurai look like wannabes. It seems to me that you could work up
something pretty believable without too much problem. I had an ork who
was a Texas Ranger before he turned to the shadows and he was a kick
in the pants to play.

> b) What is the average age of current-day Special Forces soldiers?
> And what is the age you can expect a Team (like in SEAL Teams) leader
> to be?

The ones that I have known were are all between the ages of 22 and
38, so it's not too small of a scale. I don't know any Seals, but a
team leader from an SF unit, LRSD (Long Range Surveillance Detachment),
Ranger unit or other is going to be someone "not to mess with." I've heard
safety briefings from some of these guys that consist of "If any of you
f*ckers shoot me, I'll f*cking kill ya." This one was from the same guy
who burned in on a jump from 1200 feet and only broke his leg. He was
pissed because he wasn't hard enough.

> c) I need some names for Japanese companies producing weapons. Do
> Renraku or MCT produce weapons?

Doh. The creativity well is dry here, too.

> d) What is the price of AUG-CSL system and what are it's frills (I
> remember it has a built-in laser sight)? I dont want to bother
> phoning my GM...

Hmm, I'll let someone close to their books field this one.

--
Mike Loseke | Eagles may soar, but weasels
mike@*******.com | aren't sucked into jet engines.
Message no. 65
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:35:12 +0000
On 5 Nov 97, Logan Graves Fenris disseminated foul capitalist
propaganda by writing:

> Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> > a) Is there any FASA-info about Imperial SpecForces (no, I don't mean

> Go to: http://www.sainet.or.jp/~fatcat/index-e.html This is the
> "Japanese Imperial State Project." It has a wealth of useful
> roleplaying-type information on Japan.

Been there, done that, got the... You get the idea. But there was not
much info about Imp military, nor SpecForces (just a few lines). I
was just looking for other data before I write the history...

> <plug>
> Check the BKK for *all* your Corp Dirt!
> </plug>

I would. Unfortunately, my GM does not like the idea. :(

;P


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Sex kills - die happy.
Message no. 66
From: adonis <adonis@******.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:32:57 -0500
[snip]
> I haven't seen any myself, but I can give you some ideas. I was in a
> great campaign that started in Los Angeles before CalFreestate came out.
> The Imperial Marines were pretty scary as the area was basically colonial
> and there was alot of opposition. The standard marines walking around
> all had medium military armor and quite a few were carrying plasma
> shock rifles (I think they came out of an issue of KaGe). They made the
[snip]

KaGe!! That's the mag I was trying to remember!! My GM has a ton of
them...well he has quite a few :) Prob'ly why our world has such a major
Japanese influence :)

SOOiCydE
Message no. 67
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:58:52 +0100
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 13:20/ 5 Nov 97...

> b) What is the average age of current-day Special Forces soldiers?

Late 20s to early 30s, perhaps a bit older. You won't find many
20-year-olds in special forces, as these units tend to look for more
mature people.

> And what is the age you can expect a Team (like in SEAL Teams) leader
> to be?

About the same as the rest of the team, I'd say.

> c) I need some names for Japanese companies producing weapons. Do
> Renraku or MCT produce weapons?

Yep. Corporate Shadowfiles is the source for most info you want about
corps, especially about what they produce. All megacorps do something with
military technology, though MCT is lowest-rated (at 3). All the other
coprps have at least a 6.

> and
> d) What is the price of AUG-CSL system and what are it's frills (I
> remember it has a built-in laser sight)? I dont want to bother
> phoning my GM...

4500Y, and it has a laser sight and gas vent 1.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Would it make you feel much better, if it was you against the world?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 68
From: "Logan Graves <Fenris>" <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:22:54 -0500
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
>
> On 5 Nov 97, Logan Graves Fenris disseminated foul capitalist
> propaganda by writing:
>
> > <plug>
> > Check the BKK for *all* your Corp Dirt!
> > </plug>
>
> I would. Unfortunately, my GM does not like the idea. :(
>

Ack!! He's oppressing you!! Come see the violence inherent in the
system... ;0

--Fenris
____________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) "If nobody in the world was violent,
I could conqure the whole stupid
planet with a butter knife."
(>) --Dogbert
Message no. 69
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:01:32 +0000
On 5 Nov 97, Gurth disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> > b) What is the average age of current-day Special Forces soldiers?

> Late 20s to early 30s, perhaps a bit older. You won't find many
> 20-year-olds in special forces, as these units tend to look for more
> mature people.

Well, I see... I think then a very laaaate goblinization is in order.
(Are there any cases, in SR books, of late UGE? I mean goblinizing
into an ork in your late twenties... I'll do it anyway, but it would
be nice to have some extra weight for the discussion with my GM.)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Scrabble players can lay seven at one go.
Message no. 70
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:28:48 PST
>Well, I see... I think then a very laaaate goblinization is in order.
>(Are there any cases, in SR books, of late UGE? I mean goblinizing
>into an ork in your late twenties... I'll do it anyway, but it would
>be nice to have some extra weight for the discussion with my GM.)
>

Of course there is- the original wave of goblinization hit people of all
ages. You'd be a pretty old orc if that was when you turned, though.
After the original wave, "goblinization" became very rare, and usaully
occurs at the end of puberty, AFAIK. It might be possible as a response
to unusual magical conditions- Exposure to a mana storm or powerful
aspected sight, for example. The genes could be "recesive" , unlikely
to trigger in the normal turn of things, but capable of causing
permanant change once activated.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 71
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:04:07 +0100
adonis said on 16:32/ 5 Nov 97...

> KaGe!! That's the mag I was trying to remember!! My GM has a ton of
> them...well he has quite a few :) Prob'ly why our world has such a major
> Japanese influence :)

Has anyone seen any recent issues (after #6) of Shadowland, BTW? #6 came
out about half a year ago, so around now #8 should be out, but I for one
haven't seen it. Another RPG magazine gone under?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Would it make you feel much better, if it was you against the world?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 72
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:04:07 +0100
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 7:01/ 6 Nov 97...

> Well, I see... I think then a very laaaate goblinization is in order.
> (Are there any cases, in SR books, of late UGE? I mean goblinizing
> into an ork in your late twenties... I'll do it anyway, but it would
> be nice to have some extra weight for the discussion with my GM.)

Most goblinization occurs at puberty, and it is very rare by the 2050s.
The only real "wave" of goblinization was in 2021, and though after that
it still happened, the scale of the thing dropped tremendously -- after
all, after the first time there are full-grown orks and trolls that can
reproduce normally.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Would it make you feel much better, if it was you against the world?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 73
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:31:18 +0000
And verily, did Mon goose hastily scribble thusly...
|
|>Well, I see... I think then a very laaaate goblinization is in order.
|>(Are there any cases, in SR books, of late UGE? I mean goblinizing
|>into an ork in your late twenties... I'll do it anyway, but it would
|>be nice to have some extra weight for the discussion with my GM.)
|>
|
|Of course there is- the original wave of goblinization hit people of all
|ages. You'd be a pretty old orc if that was when you turned, though.
|After the original wave, "goblinization" became very rare, and usaully
|occurs at the end of puberty, AFAIK.

Yessss....
But Orks and Trolls who were born Human, normally live to a human old age.
(I know it's not cannon, but according to Never Trust an Elf, anyway).
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 74
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: A few questions
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:39:57 -0600
Gurth wrote:

> Has anyone seen any recent issues (after #6) of Shadowland, BTW? #6 cam=
e
> out about half a year ago, so around now #8 should be out, but I for =
one
> haven't seen it. Another RPG magazine gone under?
>
There hasn't been another issue of Shadowland since #6 (I have an article
in there, by the by*grin*). There is a link to the SOK page on the FASA =
page.
Check it out.

Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,
from 'Othello'
Message no. 75
From: NercoLythe@***.com NercoLythe@***.com
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:01:55 EST
I had the Shadowrun third edition and Grimoire second edition in my hands for
about an hour in order to create a character and learn how to play a game, RPG
none the less, and they're a couple of things I would like to ask.

1. Would I be able to anchor a spell, say Powerball, to my katana and the
trigger would be anytime it draws blood? Or perhaps a throwing knife?

2. Would I be able to take a sample of a critter's DNA and clone it in order
to domesticate it?

3. How is essence figured out?

4. Can I have more than one ally? And also is it allowed for a character's
ally to use hidden life one its previous master?

5. I killed a Juggernat, cut its head off, burnt off the flesh and grafted the
skull onto my bike. Now how much armor would that be and also how would the
handling and speed be affected?

6. If I create a homonclus for my ally spirit would it make sense to give it
other forms, would it be able to use them, is my ally forever bound to its
host body.

7. Exactly how would I be able too find a critter for my ally to inhabit, do I
have to tame a critter, beat it senseless to the point where it lingers above
death? What critters can I use for my ally to inhabit?

8. Can I give my spirit the skill to drive cars even if it inhabited a hell
hound?

9. What is blood shaman? Can I be a blood shaman? And can you give me any
other information on blood shaman?

10. Can you give me a list of book out and coming out?

11. The spell Firewall is it stationary? Can I ride on the back of a friends
bike and put a wall around us while we ride around and just hit people with
the wall?

I would greatly appreciate any help or all, and I know it is annoying to
answer questions like these but I have only played one game, I loved it and I
already am an addict, and as son as the damned bookstore allows me to order
these books I'll read up.
Message no. 76
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 22:42:07 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to NercoLythe@***.com."
]I had the Shadowrun third edition and Grimoire second edition in my hands for
]about an hour in order to create a character and learn how to play a game,
RPG
]none the less, and they're a couple of things I would like to ask.

<snip some questions others will answer far better>

]3. How is essence figured out?

You essence starts off at 6, every character, every archetype. Cyberware
decreases it by the amount listed in SR3.

]4. Can I have more than one ally?

I couldn't find anywhere that said you can't. If you want to lose more
karma and magic rating, so be it.

]5. I killed a Juggernat, cut its head off, burnt off the flesh and grafted
the
]skull onto my bike. Now how much armor would that be and also how would the
]handling and speed be affected?

(Is this for real?) Umm...I don't know about handling...it's upped, but by
how much I couldn't say. As for armour, the hardened armour power is
magical in nature, so with the creature dead, you won't get hardened
armour (in my opinion, at least). Maybe a couple impact and 1 ballistic.

]7. Exactly how would I be able too find a critter for my ally to inhabit,
do I
]have to tame a critter, beat it senseless to the point where it lingers above
]death? What critters can I use for my ally to inhabit?

Maybe just confine it? Maybe knock it out? GM call, really. As for
what you can use, any normal critter will do. Just remember, you won't
be able to go many places with your ally if it's an elephant, or polar bear.

]8. Can I give my spirit the skill to drive cars even if it inhabited a hell
]hound?

LOL! Brings to mind the Far Side cartoon..."I swear officer, he's never
off this leash for even a second!"
I say sure, he can drive. But does he have opposable thumbs?
(which brings to mind another Far Side cartoon...I have to get out more)

]9. What is blood shaman? Can I be a blood shaman? And can you give me any
]other information on blood shaman?

No, you may not. Aztlan is the blood shaman book. Sorry, don't
own it.

]10. Can you give me a list of book out and coming out?

Go to http://www.FASA.com , and look around there. A slightly out-of-
date list is at http://www.fasa.com/ProductLists/SRProductList.html and
Gurth just posted a survey that lists them all as well.

]I would greatly appreciate any help or all, and I know it is annoying to
]answer questions like these but I have only played one game, I loved it and I
]already am an addict, and as son as the damned bookstore allows me to order
]these books I'll read up.

Hooray! Another addict! And don't worry about questions. This list
loves answering questions. Answering, and arguing about the answers, and
making up house rules to answer tough questions, and arguing about house
rules, and drifting off-topic until the original thread has nothing to do with
what's currently being discussed...

Scott
-----------------------------------------------------
"Fragile, timid, with natural good manners,
he was, however, better suited for war than
for government."
_One Hundred Years Of Solitude_
Gabriel Garcia Marquez
Message no. 77
From: David Fallon dfallon@****.edu
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:47:37 -0800
>I had the Shadowrun third edition and Grimoire second edition in my hands
for
>about an hour in order to create a character and learn how to play a game,
RPG
>none the less, and they're a couple of things I would like to ask.


One thing worth pointing out before you even get into all the questions...
All of the grimoire rules may or may not be thrown out. Currently, they
don't really fit into Shadowrun 3rd edition. Presumably, all or most of the
things you've talked about will be explained when Magic in the Shadows, an
upcoming sourcebook, comes out. My recommendation is either have your GM
make up something in the mean time, or don't use initiation.
Message no. 78
From: John E Pederson pedersje@******.Rose-Hulman.Edu
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:32:21 -0500
NercoLythe@***.com wrote:
>
> I had the Shadowrun third edition and Grimoire second edition in my hands for
> about an hour in order to create a character and learn how to play a game, RPG
> none the less, and they're a couple of things I would like to ask.

Well, welcome to Shadowrun and welcome to ShadowRN! Be prepared to
suffer through a deluge of electronic correspondence and
conversation:) And again, welcome. One thing to note concerning all
magic in SR3 as it relates to the Grimmythingy and Awakenings (which
you will probably encounter shortly if you haven't already): the
Grimoire, 2nd Edition and Awakenings are OUT OF DATE with the
introduction of SR3 and the replacement (Magic in the Shadows) is not
yet available and may quite possibly change things sufficiently that
the answers I give may not apply whatsoever. You have been warned.

> 1. Would I be able to anchor a spell, say Powerball, to my katana and the
> trigger would be anytime it draws blood? Or perhaps a throwing knife?

Yes, no, maybe. A better one would be a modification of Death Touch
(which, I believe, shows up in Grimmythingy 2) as it doesn't have an
area effect which would catch everyone in the nearby area. Your other
problem will be discriminating the target (the one being hit with
afore-mentioned katana) from the guy using the sword, and from the
sword itself (lots of ambiguity in setting up an anchoring some days).
Check with your GM. It used to be (under the previous edition) that
Combat spells (like Death Touch and Powerball) required the caster to
'synch' auras with the target -- this doesn't appear so in SR3, so
some of the complication of anchored Combat spells seems to have
disappeared. But definitely check on how the GM thinks that spell will
be targeted.

A better and mildly safer (and probably more destructive if the weapon
can handle it) is an anchored manipulation. It may not be quite the
effect you're looking for, but it should be a lot easier to figure
out, targeting-wise.

> 2. Would I be able to take a sample of a critter's DNA and clone it in order
> to domesticate it?

Yes and no (again). You would likely do as well with a newborn pup of
the species. The bad news is that the creature won't be completely
domestic -- many of those instincts (the "Four F's", as it were) are
hardwired into the creature and take a couple of generations to fade
(and even then don't disappear entirely). Do a little digging on
raising exotic (read: non-domestic) animals as pets in the
here-and-now for a better clue as to what I'm talking about.

> 3. How is essence figured out?

When your character starts, you have six points of Essence, minus the
Essence cost associated with any cyberware you may have had installed.
You cannot regain Essence that has been lost, and it can sometimes be
lost from deadly wounds. Other things that cause Essence loss:
vampires (they suck:), cyberware implants.

> 4. Can I have more than one ally? And also is it allowed for a character's
> ally to use hidden life one its previous master?

There's nothing preventing you from having more than one ally, so long
as you're willing to donate the requisite Magic Point for each one. As
for Hidden Life: if you read up on the power, you'll find that
creatures which have a spirit's life Hidden in them are pretty much
the pawns of the spirit. So the answer is yes, but you don't want to
do it.

> 5. I killed a Juggernat, cut its head off, burnt off the flesh and grafted the
> skull onto my bike. Now how much armor would that be and also how would the
> handling and speed be affected?

Given the size of a Juggernaut, wouldn't the bike be pretty much
undriveable (rendering the this a moot point)? At least, I was of the
impression that the things were, well... *huge* (as in really frickin'
HUGE).

> 6. If I create a homonclus for my ally spirit would it make sense to give it
> other forms, would it be able to use them, is my ally forever bound to its
> host body.

So long as you don't later modify the formula (check it out in the
Grimoire), an ally with the inhabitation ability is bound to the
physical body provided it and cannot leave it so long as the body
exists.

> 7. Exactly how would I be able too find a critter for my ally to inhabit, do I
> have to tame a critter, beat it senseless to the point where it lingers above
> death? What critters can I use for my ally to inhabit?

I would say that having the creature alive and at the summoning ritual
would be enough (although alive isn't really a prerequisite -- it's
just handy if you wanted the spirit's body to be something besides a
animal's corpse;). And non-Awakened critter (be it a dog, cat, horse,
etc.) is fair game, assuming you can get your hands on one. As someone
else noted, however, you're not likely to get around a whole lot if
the animal is very far out of the usual.

> 8. Can I give my spirit the skill to drive cars even if it inhabited a hell
> hound?

Yes. Although, it couldn't inhabit a hell hound (hell hounds being
Awakened beasties and all).

> 9. What is blood shaman? Can I be a blood shaman? And can you give me any
> other information on blood shaman?

They're covered in the Aztlan book and are intended as an NPC-only
kind of thing (you might talk to your GM if you're really interested,
though). What little I know about them says they aren't a pleasant
bunch (nor something I want to play).

> 10. Can you give me a list of book out and coming out?

Check the ShadowFAQ (http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq) for that
kind of information.

> 11. The spell Firewall is it stationary? Can I ride on the back of a friends
> bike and put a wall around us while we ride around and just hit people with
> the wall?

I've always considered it to be stationary, though you'll want to talk
to your GM and see what his take is.

> I would greatly appreciate any help or all, and I know it is annoying to
> answer questions like these but I have only played one game, I loved it and I
> already am an addict, and as son as the damned bookstore allows me to order
> these books I'll read up.

First: ask questions, that's one of the reasons the list exists!
Second: don't get wrapped in SR to the exclusion of everything else.
Gaming's a spiffy hobby, but I don't know that it should be the whole
of one's life:)

--
John Pederson
Message no. 79
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:26:41 EST
In a message dated 2/8/1999 10:25:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

>
> ]5. I killed a Juggernat, cut its head off, burnt off the flesh and grafted
> the
> ]skull onto my bike. Now how much armor would that be and also how would
the
> ]handling and speed be affected?
>
> (Is this for real?) Umm...I don't know about handling...it's upped, but
> by
> how much I couldn't say. As for armour, the hardened armour power is
> magical in nature, so with the creature dead, you won't get hardened
> armour (in my opinion, at least). Maybe a couple impact and 1 ballistic.

Okay, I admit I skipped the first time through, but I have to jump in now.

Nerco...I think you're the originator of this. You mentioned this like it was
a new game for you? Is this a new game for your GM? I would think so,
because in all honest the "head of a juggernaut" is about the size of a
volkswagon rabbit (car). So sure, I would agree with Scott here. It's going
to effect the handling of your bike.

Just a bit...

-K (who can't help but to laugh at the image this gives him...)
Message no. 80
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:14:08 -0500 (EST)
Welcome to ShadowRN!

On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 NercoLythe@***.com had a couple of questions:

> 1. Would I be able to anchor a spell, say Powerball, to my katana and the
> trigger would be anytime it draws blood? Or perhaps a throwing knife?

Anchored combat spells work *once*. After they are triggered,
they must be re-anchored to the item. So yes, you could anchor an
powerball to your katana, so long as you designed the trigger properly
(which pretty much tends to be GM discretion).
However, this poses other problems. For instance, "Powerball" is
an area-of-effect spell. So you're swinging your katana, you hit your
opponent, and you draw blood. Suddenly, *WHAM!* a six (or whatever the
Magic attribute of the anchoring mage was) meter radius area
centered on the sword erupts with crackling magical energy. But you're
hanging on to this sword, so you get hit too, as does your buddy standing
beside you and the innocent bystander cowering under a nearby parkbench.
Further, it is entirely likely that the spell will damage
or destroy the sword itself, meaning that you've just destroyed the focus
for your anchoring, which means a whole lot of wasted time, material, and
karma.
So yes, you can do it. But why would you want to?

> 2. Would I be able to take a sample of a critter's DNA and clone it in order
> to domesticate it?

Cloning and domestication are two totally different things. In
the Shadowrun universe, cloning is a pretty advanced science, so yes, you
could conceivably clone a critter if you had a blood or tissue sample that
you could get a good DNA sample from, as well as a facility in which to do
the work (i.e. a full-blown medical lab, with all the bells, whistles,
vats, computers, gadgets, and a machine that goes "ping").
But now that you have a cloned animal, what are you going to do
with it? Just because you have raised the animal from a pup/kitten/chick/
whatever doesn't mean that the animal is domesticated. Domestication is a
long, slow, grueling eugenic process, by which traits considered to be
"wild" are selectively bred out of successive generations of whatever
animal you're trying to domesticate. The Springer Spaniel didn't happen
overnight. The Sharpei was not an accident of nature (though it may look
like it). The Black Angus is the product of centuries, if not milennia of
selective cattle breeding.
And if you simply clone an animal and raise it from birth, all you
have is a wild animal that's used to (i.e. not afraid of) humans. It is
for this reason that "wild" animals tend to make shitty pets. Their
instinctive natural behaviors are still present. Proper training will
help, but may not offset the animal's natural tendencies. Look at the
number of "pet" wolves that need to be put down every year because they
have become too dangerous to either their owners or their owners'
neighbors.
Again, you could do it, but why would you want to?

> 3. How is essence figured out?

Everybody (all metahumans, that is) starts with 6 Essence. Every
piece of cyberware you get subtracts from this Essence. Essence is
closely tied to one's magic rating if one is a mage. As such, cyberware
and magic are at some level mutually exclusive. The more cyberware you
get, the weaker your magic becomes.
Also, creatures with the paranormal power of "Essence Drain"
(like vampires) can remove Essence from you. No fun.
There is no way to increase your Essence. Once it's gone, it's
gone for good.

> 4. Can I have more than one ally?

There's nothing that I can find that says no, so go for it. But
realize that when you create an ally as part of initiation, you don't get
the bonus magic point. Further, ally creation/improvement costs buttloads
of karma. Being a mage takes enough karma as it is, so be careful how
much you'll be giving away to your allies.
In other words, you could do it, but why would you want to?

> 5. I killed a Juggernat, cut its head off, burnt off the flesh and grafted the
> skull onto my bike. Now how much armor would that be and also how would the
> handling and speed be affected?

As someone else pointed out, a Juggernaut skull is pretty huge
(i.e. probably bigger than your bike). Mounting it to a motorcycle is not
really feasible, and even if it was, the benefit would be dubious at best
(especially considering that anyone shooting could target you instead of
the motorcycle, so in that sense it doesn't matter how armored your bike
gets).

> 6. If I create a homonclus for my ally spirit would it make sense to give it
> other forms, would it be able to use them, is my ally forever bound to its
> host body.

If I remember correctly, homonculi are permanently bound to their
physical form.

> 7. Exactly how would I be able too find a critter for my ally to inhabit, do I
> have to tame a critter, beat it senseless to the point where it lingers above
> death? What critters can I use for my ally to inhabit?

The rules for inhabiting a creature's body are pretty much
explained in the appropriate section on creating allies.

> 8. Can I give my spirit the skill to drive cars even if it inhabited a hell
> hound?

You can give an ally pretty much any skill you want. Whether the
ally can use it effectively is an entirely different matter. I *could*
give my pet snail ally a 12 in Pistols.
But why would I want to?

> 9. What is blood shaman? Can I be a blood shaman? And can you give me any
> other information on blood shaman?

Blood magic is described in the Aztlan sourcebook. It was
intended to make meaner, nastier NPC's to torment players with.
Basically, it is a way for a mage to offset drain by inflicting wounds on
sacrificial victims (or in some dire cases, upon him or herself). If
I remember correctly, every box of damage inflicted is a success on the
magician's drain test.
Whether or not you can play a blood mage is entirely up to your
GM. It depends on the setting and the kind of campaign they are running.
Most GM's say "hell no" and leave it at that.

> 10. Can you give me a list of book out and coming out?

Check out FASA's website at www.fasa.com

> 11. The spell Firewall is it stationary? Can I ride on the back of a friends
> bike and put a wall around us while we ride around and just hit people with
> the wall?

I've always ruled that barrier/wall spells are stationary once
cast, but there is some ambiguity in the rules on this point. Again,
check with your GM before assuming anything.

I hope this helped.

Marc
Message no. 81
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:02:40 +1000
Marc Renouf writes:
> > 1. Would I be able to anchor a spell, say Powerball, to my
> katana and the
> > trigger would be anytime it draws blood? Or perhaps a throwing knife?
>
> Anchored combat spells work *once*. After they are triggered,
> they must be re-anchored to the item. So yes, you could anchor an
> powerball to your katana, so long as you designed the trigger properly
> (which pretty much tends to be GM discretion).

Umm... one problem: combat spells effect the people in the AOE at _casting_.
If you anchor it, the casting time is when you anchor it, not when it goes
off. Now, unless you're really lucky, the only people who will be in the AOE
when it is cast and when it goes off will be your friends and comrades. :0)

A fireball would at least have an elemental effect to cause damage. Better
yet, stick to damaging manipulations.


--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 82
From: NercoLythe@***.com NercoLythe@***.com
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:20:17 EST
In a message dated 99-02-09 07:28:13 EST, you write:

>> ]5. I killed a Juggernat, cut its head off, burnt off the flesh and
>grafted
>> the
>> ]skull onto my bike. Now how much armor would that be and also how would
>the
>> ]handling and speed be affected?
>>
>> (Is this for real?) Umm...I don't know about handling...it's upped, but
>
>> by
>> how much I couldn't say. As for armour, the hardened armour power is
>> magical in nature, so with the creature dead, you won't get hardened
>> armour (in my opinion, at least). Maybe a couple impact and 1 ballistic.
>
>Okay, I admit I skipped the first time through, but I have to jump in now.
>
>Nerco...I think you're the originator of this. You mentioned this like it
>was
>a new game for you? Is this a new game for your GM? I would think so,
>because in all honest the "head of a juggernaut" is about the size of a
>volkswagon rabbit (car). So sure, I would agree with Scott here. It's going
>to effect the handling of your bike.



Yeah It was my first game and the GM was a little easy due to the fact the
game was running into 5 a.m. and he didn't want to get into mechanics and all.
And I do know how big it is I had to bring in help to cut it off, which took
about two hours, and then lug it back to the city dragging it on the back of a
pick up truck and then we were being chased by lone star after my friend held
up a place and so on. Well ok I addmit it is a little unbelievable that you
could graft it onto a bike but how about a car or truck then?
Message no. 83
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:41:37 -0500
NercoLythe@***.com wrote:
> >> ]5. I killed a Juggernat, cut its head off, burnt off the flesh and
> >grafted
> >> the
> >> ]skull onto my bike. Now how much armor would that be and also how
> would
> >the
> >> ]handling and speed be affected?
>
I thought that this was backstory. Silly me...

> Yeah It was my first game and the GM was a little easy due to the fact the
> game was running into 5 a.m. and he didn't want to get into mechanics and
> all.
> And I do know how big it is I had to bring in help to cut it off, which
> took
> about two hours, and then lug it back to the city dragging it on the back
> of a
> pick up truck and then we were being chased by lone star after my friend
> held
> up a place and so on. Well ok I addmit it is a little unbelievable that
> you
> could graft it onto a bike but how about a car or truck then?
>
So, out of curiousity, just how *did* you kill the Juggernaut?

James Ojaste
Message no. 84
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:42:12 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Umm... one problem: combat spells effect the people in the AOE at _casting_.

Um, are you sure about this. If this were the case, what would be
the point of anchoring a Combat spell?

Marc
Message no. 85
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:12:29 +1000
Marc Renouf writes:
> > Umm... one problem: combat spells effect the people in the AOE
> at _casting_.
>
> Um, are you sure about this. If this were the case, what would be
> the point of anchoring a Combat spell?

Yep. Aura synchronisation takes place when you cast the spell.

And, in my mind, there isn't much point. You can do a bit with elemental
side effects, but damaging manipulations work better for that. About the
only thing I can see is something like a selective bomb, with a spell like
Urban Renewal... make the anchor on site, with a temporal trigger, and then
leave. 10 minutes later, the "bomb" goes off, destroying the building,
without the problem off having you underneath.

Or you could do a Mission: Impossible trick: have a chip that's got a
anchored spell designed to blow the chip up after being played. A genuine
"This message will self-destruct" artifact.

Limits exist. Creativity involves working within those limits.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 86
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:22:32 EST
In a message dated 2/10/1999 12:35:23 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
NercoLythe@***.com writes:

>
> Yeah It was my first game and the GM was a little easy due to the fact the
> game was running into 5 a.m. and he didn't want to get into mechanics and
> all.
> And I do know how big it is I had to bring in help to cut it off, which
took
> about two hours, and then lug it back to the city dragging it on the back
of
> a
> pick up truck and then we were being chased by lone star after my friend
> held
> up a place and so on. Well ok I addmit it is a little unbelievable that you
> could graft it onto a bike but how about a car or truck then?

Okay, the idea of mounting a juggernaut onto the front of *anything* strikes
me as odd, but I'm also the guy who allowed the one juggernaut to every really
make an appearance into my games (and get trounced by a LOT of firepower) to
have the group (working as a whole mind you), to gut it, put the "shell" on
the roof of the truck, lug it all the way back to Phoenix, and use it to
create a "bar". You entered by walking underneath the skull.

Personally, I'd never allow that to be repeated (well, okay, buy me something,
we'll talk ;), but on nothing less than a Bod 4 range vehicle (large truck,
semi-type, etc...)

-K
Message no. 87
From: NercoLythe@***.com NercoLythe@***.com
Subject: A Few Questions
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:08:32 EST
In a message dated 2/10/99 8:43:18 AM EST, James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA writes:

<< NercoLythe@***.com wrote:
> >> ]5. I killed a Juggernat, cut its head off, burnt off the flesh and
> >grafted
> >> the
> >> ]skull onto my bike. Now how much armor would that be and also how
> would
> >the
> >> ]handling and speed be affected?
>
I thought that this was backstory. Silly me...

> Yeah It was my first game and the GM was a little easy due to the fact the
> game was running into 5 a.m. and he didn't want to get into mechanics and
> all.
> And I do know how big it is I had to bring in help to cut it off, which
> took
> about two hours, and then lug it back to the city dragging it on the back
> of a
> pick up truck and then we were being chased by lone star after my friend
> held
> up a place and so on. Well ok I addmit it is a little unbelievable that
> you
> could graft it onto a bike but how about a car or truck then?
>
So, out of curiousity, just how *did* you kill the Juggernaut?

James Ojaste >>

Can't really remember it happened so fast [Melodramaiclly] But When I first
saw it coming out of the woods I threw a fireball at it set the trees around
it on fire. Then I ran like hell getting a good distance away from the damned
thing then I sent a toxic wave so it would increase its target numbers. And
then a powerball the rest was damned luck I would guess. They tld me I was
lucky as hell because it could have killed me with one swipe.

~Fin
Message no. 88
From: Adam Lewis adamswork@*****.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:11:13 -0700 (PDT)
First, do you need a VCR to control drones remotely or
can you do it with just a remote control deck? (with
screen accessories)


Second, under the Sorcery and Conjuring skill it says
that any character with a magic rating of 1 or more
can use this skill. So if a physical adept takes ranks
in Sorcery, will that allow him to cast spells?

I assmue it won't, but why? And what can they do with
the Sorcery skill if he can't cast spells? (same
question for Conjuring)

Third, can the Distance Strike power be used with
Killing Hands?

Fourth, the text says that a character defending
against a Distance Strike gets to make a dodge as if
it were a ranged attack. Does this apply to the first
attack?

I think a defender wouldn't know his opponent could
punch him from 6 meters away until it happend at least
once. Not only would I not give them a dodge, I'd
probably give the attacker a bonus to hit the first
time. What do you think?


=­amL
===="The good die first."
"But most of us are morally ambiguous, which explains our random dying
patterns."
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com
Message no. 89
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 16:40:42 -0400
Adam Lewis wrote:

> First, do you need a VCR to control drones remotely or
> can you do it with just a remote control deck? (with
> screen accessories)
>

According to Rigger 2 (if I read it right), you can control drones with just a remote
control deck.

> <Snip second question>
>
> Third, can the Distance Strike power be used with
> Killing Hands?
>

Yes.

> Fourth, the text says that a character defending
> against a Distance Strike gets to make a dodge as if
> it were a ranged attack. Does this apply to the first
> attack?
>
> I think a defender wouldn't know his opponent could
> punch him from 6 meters away until it happend at least
> once. Not only would I not give them a dodge, I'd
> probably give the attacker a bonus to hit the first
> time. What do you think?

Makes sense, if it's not an official rule I say make it a house rule. I know I'd be
surprised if I got hit when no one was close to me...

>
>
> ==> AdamL
> ====> "The good die first."
> "But most of us are morally ambiguous, which explains our random dying
patterns."
> _____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 90
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 15:36:22 -0500
On Sun, 16 May 1999 12:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Adam Lewis <adamswork@*****.com>
writes:
>First, do you need a VCR to control drones remotely or
>can you do it with just a remote control deck? (with
>screen accessories)

You can control them without a VCR but only in Captain's Chair mode.

>Second, under the Sorcery and Conjuring skill it says
>that any character with a magic rating of 1 or more
>can use this skill. So if a physical adept takes ranks
>in Sorcery, will that allow him to cast spells?
>
>I assmue it won't, but why? And what can they do with
>the Sorcery skill if he can't cast spells? (same
>question for Conjuring)

Adepts can't use Sorcery to cast spells. They CAN use it for Astral
Combat.
I don't believe Adepts can use (or learn) conjury at all.

By the way, I'm glad MitS cleared up the question of "If they can't learn
it, how do mundanes and adepts use Conjury to summon Free Spirits?" :)

>Third, can the Distance Strike power be used with
>Killing Hands?

In Sr2, the cost would be increased. In SR3, there is no mention of a
cost increase but the example does indicate that they can be combined.

>Fourth, the text says that a character defending
>against a Distance Strike gets to make a dodge as if
>it were a ranged attack. Does this apply to the first
>attack?
>
>I think a defender wouldn't know his opponent could
>punch him from 6 meters away until it happend at least
>once. Not only would I not give them a dodge, I'd
>probably give the attacker a bonus to hit the first
>time. What do you think?

Depends ... I would say Distance Strike is a fairly common/publicized
adept power. Think about all the coverage it would get on the trid/sims.
I would say that in the Awakened 2060's, when summon makes a stabbing
motion in the air, most people will flinch or jump for cover or some
similar reaction depending on the situation. Just have the target react
as if the attacker was punching from melee range. Perhaps you could
apply a penalty (+1/+2) to the dodge test unless the attacker has
demonstarted unnatural abilities or other indicators that s/he could be
awakened.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 91
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 17:45:05 EDT
In a message dated 5/16/99 3:11:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
adamswork@*****.com writes:

<< First, do you need a VCR to control drones remotely or
can you do it with just a remote control deck? (with
screen accessories)>>

Yep, absolutely. Just like people NOW, in real life, play with RC (radio
control) airplanes, cars, you name it. You get NO rigger initiative, ofc,
and IMO the best you could manage would be the equivalent of "captain's
chair" mode.


<< Second, under the Sorcery and Conjuring skill it says
that any character with a magic rating of 1 or more
can use this skill. So if a physical adept takes ranks
in Sorcery, will that allow him to cast spells? >>

No, but should the Adept then ever (somehow) find himself or herself 9itself?
;-) in Astral Space ... then the Sorcery could be used for combat. Though
the Adept likely will prefer to use their own, innate H2H skills anyway, it
IS possible. Just not PRACTICAL. :-)


<< I assmue it won't, but why? And what can they do with
the Sorcery skill if he can't cast spells? (same
question for Conjuring)>>

See above for the Sorcery -- as for why, well,.because spellcasting is not
one of his/her/it's magical "talents."

As for conjuring, Awakenings put forth the idea that ANYONE could, with
knowledge of Conjuring, attempt to banish spirits. Or maybe anyoen with an
active magic rating.

I _do_ specifically remember a reference to MUNDANES using conjuring, to
conjure and bind Free Spirits ... _if_ the mundane had the True Name of the
spirit in question, ofc. <EG>

<< Third, can the Distance Strike power be used with
Killing Hands?>>

According to SR2/Awakenings (where the power first, to my knowledge,
appeared), YES, but whichever power is bought SECOND (relevant mainly for
those picking it up later in their career I suppose) had the cost DOUBLED ...
thus, if you started with Killing Hands L, and then later bought (with new
Power Points) Distance Strike, the Distance Strike would cost _4_ points, not
2, for a total of 5. Buy the Distance Strike first, and the Killing Hands L
would cost 2, not 1, for a total of 4. ;-) Confused yet?

<< Fourth, the text says that a character defending
against a Distance Strike gets to make a dodge as if
it were a ranged attack. Does this apply to the first
attack?

I think a defender wouldn't know his opponent could
punch him from 6 meters away until it happend at least
once. Not only would I not give them a dodge, I'd
probably give the attacker a bonus to hit the first
time. What do you think?
>>

I think I'd give the dodge test, but if the target TRULY could have no idea
such a thing might be possible ... well, maybe a +1 or +2 difficulty to the
dodge test.

However, given the existance of _magic_ ... Ithink dodging when some
under-armed 'runner makes a punching (or _throwing_) motion at you, would be
a bit instinctive, for most of the sorts of folks the Adept would USE that
ability on. IMO anyway.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 92
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:40:11 EDT
In a message dated 5/16/99 12:11:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
adamswork@*****.com writes:

> First, do you need a VCR to control drones remotely or
> can you do it with just a remote control deck? (with
> screen accessories)
>

You've just touched a personal bone of contention with myself and Sr3, Adam.
Reading the text makes it clear that in 2060 all the decks are set up only to
be used with a VCR. The older ones (2050 era) could be used by people
without one, though, as the text in Sr2 makes it clear those decks have
joysticks and the like.

If your GM does allow you to get a manual RC deck, yes, you could control
drones, but you would be limited to Captain's chair mode, as compared to a
rigger who could "jump" into a drone just as if he was rigging it directly.
Message no. 93
From: Jett zmjett@*********.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 03:40:44 -0400
Starrngr@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 5/16/99 12:11:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> adamswork@*****.com writes:
>
> > First, do you need a VCR to control drones remotely or
> > can you do it with just a remote control deck? (with
> > screen accessories)
> >
>

I'd rule that you could likely use a 'trode rig with a RCD, although like
decking, at a greatly lowered proficiency.


--Jett
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>

The new improved Shadowrun page: Shadow's Edge.
http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow/

Jett's Elfwood page
http://www.elfwood.com/zone47/artists/jesgrota/jesgrota.html


"This is the worst place in the world. You shouldn't have come here. You'll die
here."
"Stay in the best place in the world, darling, and you'll die there, too."
-Lord Fanny, to Quimper, The Invisibles
Message no. 94
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: A few questions
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 11:22:13 +0200
According to Adam Lewis, at 12:11 on 16 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> First, do you need a VCR to control drones remotely or can you do it
> with just a remote control deck? (with screen accessories)

BTB, no -- Rigger 2 and SR3 say that by 2060, all decks are VCR-equipped.
However, I feel there's nothing stopping you from having a non-VCR deck if
you want to. I'd probably charge 2,500 nuyen times the rating for it;
obviously, the rigger wouldn't get any Reaction/Initiative bonus or
Control Pool dice when using this kind of deck, and according to SR3 it's
only possible to operate drones in Captain's Chair mode this way.

> Second, under the Sorcery and Conjuring skill it says
> that any character with a magic rating of 1 or more
> can use this skill. So if a physical adept takes ranks
> in Sorcery, will that allow him to cast spells?

No. A physad can only cast spells if he or she takes the Magical Power
ability from page 22 of Magic in the Shadows.

> I assmue it won't, but why? And what can they do with
> the Sorcery skill if he can't cast spells? (same
> question for Conjuring)

A physad with Sorcery skill can use it as a Combat skill on the astral
plane, while a physad with Conjuring could use that to try and bind free
spirits.

> Third, can the Distance Strike power be used with
> Killing Hands?

As it doesn't say that it can't, IMHO it can.

> Fourth, the text says that a character defending
> against a Distance Strike gets to make a dodge as if
> it were a ranged attack. Does this apply to the first
> attack?

Do you mean by "the first attack" the first attack an adept makes against
a target who is not aware of the adept's Distance Strike power? I'd say
you have to use cmmon sense. I think Distance Strike would look like a
normal HTH attack, so I doubt anyone would try to dodge an attacker who's
five meters away...

> I think a defender wouldn't know his opponent could
> punch him from 6 meters away until it happend at least
> once. Not only would I not give them a dodge, I'd
> probably give the attacker a bonus to hit the first
> time. What do you think?

No bonus, IMHO. It's already powerful, and the target is not standing
still. I feel it should be as easy/difficult to hit with Distance Strike
as with a normal punch or kick. If you give a standard punch against an
unexpecting target a bonus, then you should do the same with Distance
Strike; if you don't, then don't give DS a bonus either.

--
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I can't help it...
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Message no. 95
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:36:02 -0400 (EDT)
On Sun, 16 May 1999, Adam Lewis wrote:

> First, do you need a VCR to control drones remotely or
> can you do it with just a remote control deck? (with
> screen accessories)

You can control drone with a remote control deck without needing a
VCR, but you are limited to "captain's chair" mode. You cannot "jump
in"
to a specific drone, which limits your options somewhat. Still, drones
are extremely useful, even if you don't have a VCR.

> Second, under the Sorcery and Conjuring skill it says
> that any character with a magic rating of 1 or more
> can use this skill. So if a physical adept takes ranks
> in Sorcery, will that allow him to cast spells?

No, physical adepts cannot cast spells (with the exception being
the "physical mage" or "magician adept" as described in Magicin the
Shadows - basically a full mage [priority A] who splits his points between
physad abilities and magic rating).

> And what can they do with the Sorcery skill if he can't cast spells?
> (same question for Conjuring)

Well, Sorcery can be used in place of unarmed combat when
combatting astral nasties. While I can't recall for sure, I believe that
Conjuring may be used in place of unarmed combat when fighting spirits.
Bascially, if you already have Unarmed Combat at a decent level, the
typical physad doesn't really need Sorcery or Conjuring (though having
them as Background Knowledge skills can be handy for identifying magical
effects or creatures that you may encounter).

> Third, can the Distance Strike power be used with
> Killing Hands?

Some GM's allow it, some do not. Read the descriptions of both
powers carefully. If it doesn't explicitly say that they are
incompatible, then it's pretty much a GM call.

> Fourth, the text says that a character defending
> against a Distance Strike gets to make a dodge as if
> it were a ranged attack. Does this apply to the first
> attack?

It applies to all attacks that the target has some idea are
coming. If you feel that the adept's Distance Strike power would be
surprising to the target, make a surprise test. If the target fails, he
or she cannot dodge (as is normal when surprised). This is a much more
reasonable and fair mechanics than simply saying "the first attack can't
be dodged," which is IMHO pretty arbitrary.
I may not know you're going to punch me from 6 meters away, but if
I see you winding up for an attack out there and I'm quick enough (read,
my Reaction is high enough to let me succeed at a surprise test), you be
sure I'm going to figure out that something is up and get the hell out of
the way.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Message no. 96
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:46:25 -0400 (EDT)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:40 PM 5/16/1999 -0400, Starrngr@***.com wrote:
>> First, do you need a VCR to control drones remotely or
>> can you do it with just a remote control deck? (with
>> screen accessories)

>You've just touched a personal bone of contention with myself and
>Sr3, Adam.
>Reading the text makes it clear that in 2060 all the decks are set up

>only to
>be used with a VCR. The older ones (2050 era) could be used by
>people
>without one, though, as the text in Sr2 makes it clear those decks
>have
>joysticks and the like.

Actually, there is a rule that specifically states that you _don't_
need a VCR to operate drones:
"The captain's chair mode is the only drone-control method available
to characters who do not possess a VCR implant (characters with
datajacks and an RC deck may control drones in this way)." p154, BBB3.

So, reading the text does not "make it clear that in 2060 all the
decks are set up only to be used with a VCR" and in fact, it makes it
clear that a VCR is _not_ a requirement. :)

"But wait!" you cry! You're still required to have at least a
datajack! Does this mean "Purity of Essence" types won't ever be able
to remotely control drones under SR3 rules? They could under SR2,
because you _weren't_ required to have a datajack to operate an RC
deck, you could use the manual controls.

This is true, and I feel the change was made in the interest of adding
believability to the game. Given the complexity that would be involved
in running a drone network, even when limited to Captain's Chair mode
(as people without VCRs are limited to), I can see the reasoning
behind requiring at least the direct neural interface provided by a
datajack.

However, in the back of the SR3 core rules, it states that the rules
in Rigger2 supersede the vehicle rules in SR3, except where SR3
specifically presents a rule that contradicts R2. R2's description of
the RC deck does still mention RC Decks equipped with joysticks and
video screens, though it does say that manufacturers aren't making
them after 2058 (a case could be made that since the description only
refers to one particular manufacturer, ESC-Mitre, that only that
manufacturer has stopped production on manual control RC Decks).

A case could be made that the text in the parenthesis in the rule
quoted above is merely explanatory text, and not intended to be a hard
rule in and of itself. The mention about needing a datajack could just
be because the most common type of RC Deck in the 2060s are the
cybernetically controlled ones.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

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Message no. 97
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 12:10:09 EDT
In a message dated 5/17/99 9:38:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
renouf@********.com writes:

> Some GM's allow it, some do not. Read the descriptions of both
> powers carefully. If it doesn't explicitly say that they are
> incompatible, then it's pretty much a GM call.

Well, by default, since the Distance Strike description includes a _specific_
rule for when the two powersa _are_ combined ... then, yes, you can.

GM's who disallow this outright, are using House Rules. A point to remember
for those of us who play at cons, etc (presuming Living Seattle lets things
from outside the core rulebook into the picture -- I _hope_ so!). :-)

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 98
From: JonSzeto@***.com JonSzeto@***.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:23:39 EDT
Adam Lewis <adamswork@*****.com> wrote,

> First, do you need a VCR to control drones remotely or
> can you do it with just a remote control deck? (with
> screen accessories)

You don't need a VCR to control drones remotely, but you do need a
datajack to interface with the remote control deck. You are, of course,
limited to operating from "captain's chair" mode, and you don't get a
lot of the other bonuses that you get from a VCR implant.

As far as non-cybernetically-linked remote control decks go, yes, once
upon a time there used to be such things, working with display screens
and joysticks. However, with the issue of supply v. demand, the fact is
demand for cybernetic decks is MUCH more than that for "mundane" decks.
(Hey, this is supposed to be a sorta-cyberpunk world, after all; the
large majority of people think nothing about sticking a piece of metal
and silicon into their heads.) And when not enough people buy a product
you're not making, you stop producing it, voluntarily or not. (Witness
the case of Earthdawn.)

You could probably still find some of those non-cybernetic RC decks out
there, if you looked for it. Good luck trying to find it, though. As the
flavor text in R2 (p. 97) suggests, most major manufacturers (not just
ESC-Mitre, though they introduced the new design) have stopped producing
non-cybernetic RC decks after 2058. (ESC-Mitre discontinued them in
fiscal year 2058, and most of the others followed suit quickly
thereafter.)

As far as using them in the game, I'd leave it up to the gamemaster's
judgement. They're cheaper than ordinary RC decks, especially since
they're obsolete, though the Availability rating would make it really
hard to find. As far as performance-wise, I would suggest that they
really suffer, even compared to working a RC deck without a VCR.

-- Jon
Message no. 99
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:20:32 -0500
>> Third, can the Distance Strike power be used with
>> Killing Hands?
> Some GM's allow it, some do not. Read the descriptions of both
>powers carefully. If it doesn't explicitly say that they are
>incompatible, then it's pretty much a GM call.

Actually if you read the example for Distance Strike in MitS, it
specifically states the use of Killing Hands and Distance Strike together
is possible.

In SR 2 though, you had to pay double the cost in power points for one of
the powers (The second power purchased) in order to have them both. This
double cost seems to be gone form SR3 rules. :)


>> Fourth, the text says that a character defending
>> against a Distance Strike gets to make a dodge as if
>> it were a ranged attack. Does this apply to the first
>> attack?
> It applies to all attacks that the target has some idea are
>coming. If you feel that the adept's Distance Strike power would be
>surprising to the target, make a surprise test. If the target fails, he
>or she cannot dodge (as is normal when surprised). This is a much more
>reasonable and fair mechanics than simply saying "the first attack can't
>be dodged," which is IMHO pretty arbitrary.
> I may not know you're going to punch me from 6 meters away, but if I
> see you winding up for an attack out there and I'm quick enough (read,
>my Reaction is high enough to let me succeed at a surprise test), you be
>sure I'm going to figure out that something is up and get the hell out of
>the way.

I would agree. If you're surprised, you don't get to dodge, and no combat
pool on resistance (if you have any left).
Message no. 100
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: A few questions
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:42:54 EDT
In a message dated 5/16/1999 2:11:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
adamswork@*****.com writes:

>
> First, do you need a VCR to control drones remotely or
> can you do it with just a remote control deck? (with
> screen accessories)

No, you do not need the VCR, you need a RCD (Remote Control Deck).

> Second, under the Sorcery and Conjuring skill it says
> that any character with a magic rating of 1 or more
> can use this skill. So if a physical adept takes ranks
> in Sorcery, will that allow him to cast spells?

NO.

> I assmue it won't, but why? And what can they do with
> the Sorcery skill if he can't cast spells? (same
> question for Conjuring)

Sorcery Combat is always an option. Attacking spirits with conjuring
(instead of something else) still remains as an option, IIRC.

> Third, can the Distance Strike power be used with
> Killing Hands?

Yes.

> Fourth, the text says that a character defending
> against a Distance Strike gets to make a dodge as if
> it were a ranged attack. Does this apply to the first
> attack?

In theory, yes.

> I think a defender wouldn't know his opponent could
> punch him from 6 meters away until it happend at least
> once. Not only would I not give them a dodge, I'd
> probably give the attacker a bonus to hit the first
> time. What do you think?

There *may* be cause for a suprise test, but that is a decision left to the
GM at the time of the action.

-K
Message no. 101
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: A few questions
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:52:10 +1000
At 09:36 17/05/99 -0400, Marc Renouf wrote:
> Well, Sorcery can be used in place of unarmed combat when
>combatting astral nasties. While I can't recall for sure, I believe that
>Conjuring may be used in place of unarmed combat when fighting spirits.

In SR2, under Spirit Combat, it said that the Conjuring skill may be used in
place of Body or Willpower for resisting a spirit's attack. I don't think there
was anything about using Conjuring in place of the Unarmed skill.

I rather liked this rule and I've kept it in SR3 . Similarly, I've kept the
PAoE rule about using Magic Rating instead of Willpower for opposed tests
versus paranormal powers. In neither case have I found these rules in the SR3
books.


Chris
Message no. 102
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sat May 19 04:25:01 2001
Hi all
I haven't shown my face round these parts for quite a while now but in a game I've started
to run a few questions have come up:

1) How long do Oxy-rush Nanites last for? I can't find it in any of the books
2) Can an astrally projecting mage llift a dual natured object (assuming he is strong
enough) in the astral plane?
3) What did everyone think of the Arcology sourcebook as I was thinking of getting it?

If these questions have been asked and answered before I apologise

Jonathan
Message no. 103
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Pederson)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sat May 19 09:35:01 2001
Jonathan wrote:

> Hi all


Hoi!

> 2) Can an astrally projecting mage llift a dual natured object (assuming he is strong
enough) in the astral plane?


*blink*
*blinkblink*
Err... No?

--
John Pederson
Message no. 104
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sat May 19 12:00:01 2001
> 1) How long do Oxy-rush Nanites last for? I can't find it in any of the
> books

As far as I can remember, Man & Machine says it lasts for "hours."
Pretty ambiguous. Anyone come up with a decent system to use?

> 2) Can an astrally projecting mage llift a dual natured object (assuming
> he is strong enough) in the astral plane?

I don't know :)

> 3) What did everyone think of the Arcology sourcebook as I was thinking
> of getting it?

I liked it; lots didn't. It depends on your outlook and whether you've
got strong opinions about the military, AIs, and drone technology. Your
best bet is to find it in a store and read some of it before you buy it.
There's a lot you can do with it and it's fairly easy to ignore the stuff
you don't like (like the bee-drones; I think they're stupid and far too
powerful). I'd get it. Then again, I'm an RSC (Rabid Shadowrun Completionist!).

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 105
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sat May 19 12:15:01 2001
>1) How long do Oxy-rush Nanites last for? I can't find it in any of the
books

It would only be in M&M, and the answer is simpler than you think. They are
free-floating nanites, so they loose some percent of the nanite population
every day. Once the levle drops low enough, they loose effectiveness.

> 2) Can an astrally projecting mage llift a dual natured object (assuming
he is strong enough) in the astral plane?

No. I can't recall the refrence, but its been debated enought times (in
different forms) that I'm sure of the answer. If allowed, it leads to some
pretty ugly contradictions.

>3) What did everyone think of the Arcology sourcebook as I was thinking of
getting it?

You mean Renraku: Arcology Shutdown? Its a fun read, but a difficult
setting to use with many peoples campaigns / characters. Depending on how
you run it, it can be very very lethal. If the characters are very
powerful, or very expendable, or simply very foolhardy, it might work pretty
well fo you.

-Mongoose
Message no. 106
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sat May 19 14:40:06 2001
On Sat, 19 May 2001 11:36:39 -0500 "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
writes:
> >1) How long do Oxy-rush Nanites last for? I can't find it in any of
> > the
> > books

> It would only be in M&M, and the answer is simpler than you think.
> They are
> free-floating nanites, so they loose some percent of the nanite
> population
> every day. Once the levle drops low enough, they loose
> effectiveness.

<SNIP>

Uhm, Mongoose, "several days" contradicts the duration of "several
hours"
listed in M&M. (Well semanticly it doesn't, but logically it does.)

I would say that it acts as free floating oxygen tank ... say with 3-4
hours of air. Once used up, it's gone until it can be refilled. Refilling
takes at least an equal amount of time and probably double or more. Yes,
I know it goes against M&M, but it makes sense to me ... :)

Maybe Lady Jestyr will pipe up. IIRC, she did the nanite stuff. *checks*
Yup, looks like she even wrote the Oxy-rush Game Effects ... :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 107
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sat May 19 14:40:19 2001
On Sat, 19 May 2001 09:33:18 +0100 "Jonathan"
<thegreatkraken@**********.net> writes:
> Hi all
> I haven't shown my face round these parts for quite a while now but
> in a game I've started to run a few questions have come up:
>
> 1) How long do Oxy-rush Nanites last for? I can't find it in any of
> the books

They last several hours. :)

> 2) Can an astrally projecting mage llift a dual natured object
> (assuming he is strong enough) in the astral plane?

Technically, no. However, he can cast levitate on it to move it. Think of
it this way:
1) The astral cannot directly affect the physical.
2) The astral can affect (active) auras
3) The auras affect the physical
4) Direct aura interaction corrupts (damages) one or both auras. (astral
combat)
5) Spells manipulate auras with greater flexibility than direct
interaction.
Doesn't explain everything, but I think it's all correct. :)

> 3) What did everyone think of the Arcology sourcebook as I was
> thinking of getting it?

I think everybody thought it was pretty good, but you'd have to consult
the sales figures to confirm that ;)

> If these questions have been asked and answered before I apologise

Every question has been asked and will be asked 6^6^6 times ... or
something :)

(Eventually, I'll include that </smartass> tag ... maybe...)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 108
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Pepe Barbe)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sat May 19 20:25:01 2001
At 11:36 a.m. 19/05/2001, Sebastian Wiers wrote:
> > 2) Can an astrally projecting mage llift a dual natured object (assuming
>he is strong enough) in the astral plane?
>
>No. I can't recall the refrence, but its been debated enought times (in
>different forms) that I'm sure of the answer. If allowed, it leads to some
>pretty ugly contradictions.

Then what would be effects of a projecting mage entering in contact with a
dual natured being?

Pepe
Message no. 109
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sat May 19 23:25:00 2001
>> >1) How long do Oxy-rush Nanites last for? I can't find it in any of
>> > the
>> > books
>
>> It would only be in M&M, and the answer is simpler than you think.
>> They are
>> free-floating nanites, so they loose some percent of the nanite
>> population
>> every day. Once the levle drops low enough, they loose
>> effectiveness.
>
><SNIP>
>
>Uhm, Mongoose, "several days" contradicts the duration of "several
hours"
>listed in M&M. (Well semanticly it doesn't, but logically it does.)

Um, OK. Color my oblivious...
In my defense, the question was "how long do Oxy-rush Nanites last for..."
not, how long does the oxegen supplied last. ;-)
You are right- the description says it allows them to go without breathing
for several hours. The oxegen doesn't last as long as the nanites do, but
that's not really a contradiction.

>I would say that it acts as free floating oxygen tank ... say with 3-4
>hours of air. Once used up, it's gone until it can be refilled. Refilling
>takes at least an equal amount of time and probably double or more. Yes,
>I know it goes against M&M, but it makes sense to me ... :)

Yeah, refilling would basically require breathing real air until the nanites
can extract enough oxegen from your blood to re-load (assuming they can do
so). If they suck out as much oxegen as you breath in (or more), you'll
die, so it would probably take at least as long to "re-load" the nanites as
you had gone without breathing- and even then you'd need to rest and breath
extra hard to take in enough oxegen for yourself and the nanites too.
The question is, how would the nanites know when to re-load? You don't want
them doing it when you need the oxegen for your own cells! You could have
them do it ONLY when there was excess oxegen in the blood, I guess, but that
means you'd have to hyper-ventialte to induce re-loading. Hyper-ventialting
for a few hours is not my idea of fun...

>Maybe Lady Jestyr will pipe up. IIRC, she did the nanite stuff. *checks*
>Yup, looks like she even wrote the Oxy-rush Game Effects ... :)

Maybe, although if the stuff I did is any guide, theres a lot of stuff that
got added / changed in house.
AFAIK, Oxyrush is based on a "real world" nanite proposed by Richard Drexler
in "Engines of Creation". Its one of the simplest possible nanites with a
(rahter amazing) medical potential. Realistically, Oxyrush should have a
major effect on trauma survival, somthing like quadrupling the amount of
time you go before taking damage overlow. After all, as long as there is
blood in your skull, you basically can't die- the brain is still getting
oxegen!

-Mongoose
Message no. 110
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sat May 19 23:25:06 2001
>> > 2) Can an astrally projecting mage llift a dual natured object
(assuming
>>he is strong enough) in the astral plane?
>>
>>No. I can't recall the refrence, but its been debated enought times (in
>>different forms) that I'm sure of the answer. If allowed, it leads to
some
>>pretty ugly contradictions.
>
>Then what would be effects of a projecting mage entering in contact with a
>dual natured being?

The astral body would be unable to move through the dual natured creature,
and attempting to move (or lift) it would result in astral combat if either
party so desired, as when one physical body comes in conatact with another
and tries to move it.

-Mongoose
Message no. 111
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sat May 19 23:25:19 2001
>> 2) Can an astrally projecting mage llift a dual natured object
>> (assuming he is strong enough) in the astral plane?
>
>Technically, no. However, he can cast levitate on it to move it.

Good idea, but you can't cast physical spells while astrally projecting.
Levitate is a physical spell.

-Mongoose
Message no. 112
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sun May 20 05:00:01 2001
According to Pepe Barbe, on Sat, 19 May 2001 the word on the street was...

> Then what would be effects of a projecting mage entering in contact with a
> dual natured being?

Just contact? Nothing, I would imagine, as the mage can't push the
dual-natured being around (attempting to do so would be astral combat,
which can be harmful to both).

--
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Message no. 113
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Sun May 20 10:10:01 2001
The General consensus seems to be:

1) Oxy-rush nanites last for about 3-4 hours (a semi-offical ruling from Lady Jestyr would
be nice, please :) )
the trauma suvival point sounds good (something to try when my players leave someone for
dead cos Doc Wagon could never get there on time...)
the refilling sounds possible (after all they take in the CO2) but I think it would
require just a bit too much descrimination on behalf of the nanites and anyway, if they
can't be refilled it cost the players more...

2) No. and any attempt would hurt one or both parties

3) The jury still appears to be out on the Arcology book

Please feel from to add your 2 (insert currency unit here) to the conversation

Jonathan


Message no. 114
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lady Jestyr)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Mon May 21 04:25:01 2001
At 01:30 PM 19/05/01 -0700, dghost@****.com wrote:

>Uhm, Mongoose, "several days" contradicts the duration of "several
hours"
>listed in M&M. (Well semanticly it doesn't, but logically it does.)
>
>I would say that it acts as free floating oxygen tank ... say with 3-4
>hours of air. Once used up, it's gone until it can be refilled. Refilling
>takes at least an equal amount of time and probably double or more. Yes,
>I know it goes against M&M, but it makes sense to me ... :)
>
>Maybe Lady Jestyr will pipe up. IIRC, she did the nanite stuff. *checks*
>Yup, looks like she even wrote the Oxy-rush Game Effects ... :)

Nope. Oxy-Rush was added in during the edit process, as were several of the
other nanite breeds... so I can't help. I believe Paolo and Dvix did
freelance edit work on the book, so they may be responsible; otherwise,
your best bet is to email FanPro's Shadowrun contact email address (damned
if I can remember it right now, though) and ask for an official answer.

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *
Message no. 115
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Mon May 21 05:20:03 2001
On Sat, 19 May 2001 22:37:04 -0500 "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
writes:
> >> 2) Can an astrally projecting mage llift a dual natured object
> >> (assuming he is strong enough) in the astral plane?

> >Technically, no. However, he can cast levitate on it to move it.

> Good idea, but you can't cast physical spells while astrally
> projecting.
> Levitate is a physical spell.

IMO, that's silly. It doesn't make sense that you can't cast any physical
spell while astral.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 116
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Mon May 21 05:20:10 2001
On Sat, 19 May 2001 13:13:54 -0500 Pepe Barbe <a19960615@****.edu.pe>
writes:
> Then what would be effects of a projecting mage entering in contact
> with a
> dual natured being?

If the astral being is initiating contact, either Astral Combat or an
impasse. If the dual natured being is initiating contact, or if contact
is mutually initiated, then Astral Combat ensues or the astral being
pushed. If the astral being is forced into another astral or dual
naturing being, then Astral Combat almost always ensues. All, IIRC ... ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 117
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Mon May 21 05:20:14 2001
On Sat, 19 May 2001 22:33:11 -0500 "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
writes:
<SNIP>
> Um, OK. Color my oblivious...
> In my defense, the question was "how long do Oxy-rush Nanites last
> for..."
> not, how long does the oxegen supplied last. ;-)
> You are right- the description says it allows them to go without
> breathing
> for several hours. The oxegen doesn't last as long as the nanites
> do, but
> that's not really a contradiction.

Well, yes and no. The nanites have game effects beyond enhancing the
ability to hold one's breath. However, it stands to reason that this
extra effect only lasts while the nanites hold oxygen. If the nanites
can't be refilled then when you use up the oxygen in the nanites, they
become useless passengers in your blood stream until they run out (after
10 days; they are Tranient nanites.)

<SNIP>
> If they suck out as much oxegen as you breath in (or more),
> you'll
> die,

No, you won't. As the nanites sucked the blood up, they would spit it out
as if you were holding your breath.

<SNIP>
> Maybe, although if the stuff I did is any guide, theres a lot of
> stuff that
> got added / changed in house.

Well, I said she wrote it because there were semicolons in the
description.

> AFAIK, Oxyrush is based on a "real world" nanite proposed by Richard
> Drexler
> in "Engines of Creation". Its one of the simplest possible nanites
> with a
> (rahter amazing) medical potential. Realistically, Oxyrush should
> have a
> major effect on trauma survival, somthing like quadrupling the
> amount of
> time you go before taking damage overlow. After all, as long as
> there is
> blood in your skull, you basically can't die- the brain is still
> getting
> oxegen!

Well, sort of. If you wanted to house rule an effect like this, you could
say that it gives you 1 extra box of overflow per X percent remaining at
the time of combat which will prevent brain death, but not
unconsciousness. Note: If you shoot up with Oxy-Rush just before combat
and take 10 boxes of damage. It's still working at full effect; only a
49% or less remaining do you lose effectiveness.

My initial thought when looking at this, is the effect on muscle fatigue
... Would they allow toxins to be removed more quickly from muscle cells
during strenuous exertion?

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 118
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Mon May 21 05:30:03 2001
According to Lady Jestyr, on Mon, 21 May 2001 the word on the street was...

> your best bet is to email FanPro's Shadowrun contact email address (damned
> if I can remember it right now, though) and ask for an official answer.

info@************.com

--
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Message no. 119
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lady Jestyr)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Mon May 21 05:30:12 2001
At 03:05 AM 21/05/01 -0700, dghost@****.com wrote:

>> Maybe, although if the stuff I did is any guide, theres a lot of
>> stuff that
>> got added / changed in house.
>
>Well, I said she wrote it because there were semicolons in the
>description.

Uh-oh, my secret's out. I must admit to a liberal use of semi-colons; I've
used them in my writing ever since I can remember, and I've noticed lots of
others don't.

Whoops... just noticed one even creeping in there. ;-)

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *
Message no. 120
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Mon May 21 09:50:01 2001
At 03:10 AM 5/21/2001 -0700, dghost@****.com wrote:
>On Sat, 19 May 2001 22:37:04 -0500 "Sebastian Wiers"
<m0ng005e@*****.com>
>writes:
> > >> 2) Can an astrally projecting mage llift a dual natured object
> > >> (assuming he is strong enough) in the astral plane?
>
> > >Technically, no. However, he can cast levitate on it to move it.
>
> > Good idea, but you can't cast physical spells while astrally
> > projecting.
> > Levitate is a physical spell.
>
>IMO, that's silly. It doesn't make sense that you can't cast any physical
>spell while astral.

When you're in the astral plane you are not in the physical universe
anymore, ergo no physical spells are possible.

:)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Gridsec, Nice Guy Division
--
Message no. 121
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Mon May 21 12:30:00 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: <dghost@****.com>
Subject: Re: A Few questions....


> On Sat, 19 May 2001 13:13:54 -0500 Pepe Barbe <a19960615@****.edu.pe>
> writes:
> > Then what would be effects of a projecting mage entering in contact
> > with a
> > dual natured being?
>
> If the astral being is initiating contact, either Astral Combat or an
> impasse. If the dual natured being is initiating contact, or if contact
> is mutually initiated, then Astral Combat ensues or the astral being
> pushed. If the astral being is forced into another astral or dual
> naturing being, then Astral Combat almost always ensues. All, IIRC ... ;)

IIRC, (and my memory is as elusive as Bigoot IRL) MitS states that an aura
"can" pass though living things. I took this as wood, plants, etc. But
couldn't this be said for poeple too? Or do they have to be astrally
INACTIVE for this to work?

Also, what about an Initiate ability to interact with astrally active aura's
with out initiating astral combat? Got some ideas if interested. (and once I
look at the rules again, it's been a while. : ( )

Ahrain
Message no. 122
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Mon May 21 13:25:01 2001
>From: "Ahrain Drigar" <Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Subject: Re: A Few questions....
>Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:33:52 -0400
>
>IIRC, (and my memory is as elusive as Bigoot IRL)

It seems that the letter "F" is elusive as well. ;)
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Message no. 123
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Tue May 22 02:35:01 2001
On Mon, 21 May 2001 07:52:40 -0600 Graht <davidb@***.100.100.99> writes:
<SNIP>
> When you're in the astral plane you are not in the physical universe
> anymore, ergo no physical spells are possible.
>
> :)

I can't see any reason, other than the rules say it's naughty, that,
while astrally projecting, you can't cast a physical spell on a dual
natured being as long as the spell does not generate a physical
manifestation until it reaches the target. That would mean no elemental
manipulation spells, but levitate and such would still work. It seems to
me that physical spells while astral was outlawed to prevent elemental
manipulations, or, was done before it was decided to remove grounding.
The latter seems unlikely, however. Look at another example: Decrease
Attribute. Why should you be able to cast Decrease Attribute while
astral, but not Decrease Cybered Attribute. Maybe they don't want people
killing off their precious FAB with a sterilize spell. Like I said, it's
silly. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 124
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Tue May 22 06:20:01 2001
dghost@****.com writes:

> I can't see any reason, other than the rules say it's naughty, that, while
> astrally projecting, you can't cast a physical spell on a dual natured
> being as long as the spell does not generate a physical manifestation until
> it reaches the target. That would mean no elemental manipulation spells,
> but levitate and such would still work. It seems to me that physical spells
> while astral was outlawed to prevent elemental manipulations, or, was done
> before it was decided to remove grounding. The latter seems unlikely,
> however. Look at another example: Decrease Attribute. Why should you be
> able to cast Decrease Attribute while astral, but not Decrease Cybered
> Attribute. Maybe they don't want people killing off their precious FAB
> with a sterilize spell. Like I said, it's silly. :)

Well, not that I disagree, but I've a few thoughts on the matter. Firstly,
why is there a differentiation between Physical and Mana spells in the first
place? Following your reasoning for casting Physical spells from the astral
plane makes me wonder why there is a difference at all (with the exception
of Damaging Manipulation (DM) spells, which have an obvious difference). The
only difference, as far as I can see, is that Physical spells can affect
physical non-living targets, while Mana spells can only affect physical
living targets. Mana spells function by affecting the living aura of the
target, the effect of this manifests on the physical component of the
target. Physical spells just affect the physical bits, but they can affect
targets that are not living, too. Thus, I suppose, since when you are in
Astral space the only parts of a target you have access too are the aural
parts, you need the spell that affects auras, not physical components, to do
the job. Thus the no Physical spells on the astral rule.

In order to be able to cast Physical spells at astral targets (dual natured
or otherwise, it does not make a difference) you would have to remove the
Physical/Mana spell differentiation. This, while it would probably work,
may take some effort and cause some problems.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 125
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Tue May 22 11:00:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: A Few questions....


> Well, not that I disagree, but I've a few thoughts on the matter.
Firstly,
> why is there a differentiation between Physical and Mana spells in the
first
> place? Following your reasoning for casting Physical spells from the
astral
> plane makes me wonder why there is a difference at all (with the exception
> of Damaging Manipulation (DM) spells, which have an obvious difference).
The
> only difference, as far as I can see, is that Physical spells can affect
> physical non-living targets, while Mana spells can only affect physical
> living targets. Mana spells function by affecting the living aura of the
> target, the effect of this manifests on the physical component of the
> target. Physical spells just affect the physical bits, but they can
affect
> targets that are not living, too. Thus, I suppose, since when you are in
> Astral space the only parts of a target you have access too are the aural
> parts, you need the spell that affects auras, not physical components, to
do
> the job. Thus the no Physical spells on the astral rule.

Makes sense, IMO

> In order to be able to cast Physical spells at astral targets (dual
natured
> or otherwise, it does not make a difference) you would have to remove the
> Physical/Mana spell differentiation. This, while it would probably work,
> may take some effort and cause some problems.

Easiest solution. Design a Levitate spell that only affects living (hence,
aura) creatures and targets said aura. Viola, a Mana Levitate.

Don't know if it can be done by the rules, it's been a long while.
Message no. 126
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Tue May 22 11:15:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: Brother Justice <brother_justice@*******.com>

Subject: Re: A Few questions....


> >IIRC, (and my memory is as elusive as Bigoot IRL)
>
> It seems that the letter "F" is elusive as well. ;)

"F"......"F"...talk to me buddy! "F"
Oh my god, they killed "F", They KILLED "F"
Those dirty, rotten, filthy stinkin' elves
They killed "F"!!!!

(bad Wizards quote)

I th-ught I was l--sing things! -h! N-, there went my "-"!
: P

Ahrain (with the flaw Colander Memory) Only a 2 pointer, I think...I forgot
Message no. 127
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Tue May 22 17:25:00 2001
On Tue, 22 May 2001 11:03:28 -0400 "Ahrain Drigar"
<Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Easiest solution. Design a Levitate spell that only affects living
> (hence,
> aura) creatures and targets said aura. Viola, a Mana Levitate.
>
> Don't know if it can be done by the rules, it's been a long while.

Nope. Thought of that. Movement is a physical change, thus the physical
modifier is required. Now if you want to move the spirit, as in "the
flesh is present, but the spirit is elsewhere", that's different. ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 128
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dvixen)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Wed May 23 04:20:02 2001
> >Maybe Lady Jestyr will pipe up. IIRC, she did the nanite stuff. *checks*
> >Yup, looks like she even wrote the Oxy-rush Game Effects ... :)
>
> Nope. Oxy-Rush was added in during the edit process, as were
> several of the
> other nanite breeds... so I can't help. I believe Paolo and Dvix did
> freelance edit work on the book, so they may be responsible; otherwise,
> your best bet is to email FanPro's Shadowrun contact email address (damned
> if I can remember it right now, though) and ask for an official answer.

Wasn't us. (What's Oxy-Rush, anyways?) <= Don't answer that. I'll go find my
books.
Message no. 129
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: A Few questions....
Date: Wed May 23 12:45:01 2001
At 10:41 AM 5/21/2001 -0700, dghost@****.com wrote:
>On Mon, 21 May 2001 07:52:40 -0600 Graht <davidb@***.100.100.99> writes:
><SNIP>
> > When you're in the astral plane you are not in the physical universe
> > anymore, ergo no physical spells are possible.
> >
> > :)
>
>I can't see any reason, other than the rules say it's naughty, that,
>while astrally projecting, you can't cast a physical spell on a dual
>natured being as long as the spell does not generate a physical
>manifestation until it reaches the target. That would mean no elemental
>manipulation spells, but levitate and such would still work. It seems to
>me that physical spells while astral was outlawed to prevent elemental
>manipulations, or, was done before it was decided to remove grounding.
>The latter seems unlikely, however. Look at another example: Decrease
>Attribute. Why should you be able to cast Decrease Attribute while
>astral, but not Decrease Cybered Attribute. Maybe they don't want people
>killing off their precious FAB with a sterilize spell. Like I said, it's
>silly. :)

I started writing a reply and was doing just fine until I tried to counter
the Decrease Cybered Attribute argument, and failed.

I think the designer chose to declare it a physical spell because cyberware
is physical equipment. However, due to the fact that paying essence for it
makes it a legitimate part of the character (see cybereyes and mages) and
integrates it into his astral aspect, it is no longer separate from the
character and can't be targeted as such by a spell.

IMO the easy way out is to change the Decrease Cybered Attribute spell from
a physical spell to a mana spell. This removes the conflict, and doesn't
meddle with the reasoning behind the rule that disallows physical spells
from being used in astral space.

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Gridsec, Nice Guy Division
--
Message no. 130
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: A FEw Questions...
Date: Sat May 26 21:20:01 2001
According to M&M, Oxy rush lasts until the nanites run out. Assuming a
transient type, is 8 days! ( - 10% per day, <25% means ineffective)

Thats a long ass time! On the other hand, it would be useful in passing as
dead for a casual (glancing) inspection...Or you could be a Matrix (the
movie) freak, where you want to be like Neo and not have to breathe...Yeah
that's it...

;-) sorry, I' ve been up a looong time!

Big Q

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Thwap!