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Message no. 1
From: Tai'Chara StarGazer taichara@*******.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:38:31 PST
Jya.

It seems my decker/computer freak player is at it again, this time with some
minor but wierd questions..

1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also 2000Y, why is
there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"? A pocket.sec is a "pocket
computer", isn't it?

2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer is given as being the
size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks are keyboard-size. But
decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your head, so how small can they be?

3) Can you use chips as 'workspace' on a computer in SR, the way you can run
programs or edit files off of a disc irl?

Like I said, minor but wierd. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks :>

Tai

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons,
For you are crunchy and good with A-1 sauce.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

REALITY.SYS corrupted: Reboot universe? (Y/N/Q)

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Message no. 2
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:51:24 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:38 AM 11/11/99 -0800, Tai'Chara StarGazer wrote:
:1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also
:2000Y, why is there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"? A
:pocket.sec is a "pocket computer", isn't it?

I think the last time someone noticed this, the list came up with the
idea that the pocket secretary manufacturers subsidize the price
difference through prominent placement of large, very noticeable
corporate logos on the pocket secretary's case for
advertising/marketing purposes. :)

:2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer is given as
:being the size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks are
:keyboard-size. But decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your
:head, so how small can they be?

How small? If it's a hot deck that runs only on direct neural
interface, I'd say that it could get as small as one of today's large
pocket calculators, or perhaps the size of a portable MP3 player.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 3
From: lomion lomion@*********.or
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:02:17 -0800
At 10:38 AM 11/11/99 -0800, you wrote:

>Jya.
>
>It seems my decker/computer freak player is at it again, this time with
>some minor but wierd questions..
>
>1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also 2000Y, why
>is there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"? A pocket.sec is a
>"pocket computer", isn't it?

Loss leader? You get them the hw cheap and then sell services look at
cell and digital phones that is how they work.

>2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer is given as being the
>size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks are keyboard-size. But
>decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your head, so how small can they be?

pretty small i'd guess, probably about the size of a palm pilot
maybe? Remeber the implanted one's lack the need for any large interface,
displays, and just the genreal limitation of size when it comes to how
small can a person actually use something realistically (ever seen those
ridicuously small cell phones? I don't think they are very comfortable to use)

>3) Can you use chips as 'workspace' on a computer in SR, the way you can
>run programs or edit files off of a disc irl?

I don't see why not, you have flash rom's that can be changed on the fly,
also when your computer uses memory it's swapping to a set of chips. I'd
think in 2060 they'd have speed problems fixed with flashing a rom chip.

--Larry
Message no. 4
From: Tai'Chara StarGazer taichara@*******.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:02:14 PST
Jya.

>From: Richard Tomasso <rtomasso@*******.com>

>Tai'Chara StarGazer wrote:
> > 1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also 2000Y,
>why is > > there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"? A pocket.sec
is a
>"pocket > > computer", isn't it?
>
>Mostly. It's more like a Palm Pilot as opposed to an ultralite notebook.
>

Ah. I thought as much; needed a second opinion, though.


>
> > 3) Can you use chips as 'workspace' on a computer in SR, the way you can
>run > > programs or edit files off of a disc irl?
>
>Do you mean the RAM? You can't run a program from "disk" in SR, at least
> >not without some serious penalties.
>

I'm not quite certain what he meant *shakes Randi -- details, man, details!*
but I suspect he's trying to dodge the computer memory requirements for
utility programming; you know, just buy a chip, pop it in the right place,
and go to town..

I'd prefer to not let him get away with that :P

Tai

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons,
For you are crunchy and good with A-1 sauce.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

REALITY.SYS corrupted: Reboot universe? (Y/N/Q)

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 5
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:25:01 -0500 (EST)
lomion <lomion@*********.or> writes:
> At 10:38 AM 11/11/99 -0800, you wrote:
> >1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also 2000Y, why
> >is there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"? A pocket.sec is a
> >"pocket computer", isn't it?
>
> Loss leader? You get them the hw cheap and then sell services look at
> cell and digital phones that is how they work.

Also, economy of scale. We have a Sparc laptop in the office
that cost close to an order of magnitude more than a high end pentium
laptop (g3, whatever), but isn't really more powerful. The reason for
this is because Sun simply doesn't get to sell all that many of these
things, so they're pretty damn expensive.
Pocket Secretaries are supposed to be ubiquitous, while only a
compuer geek is going to want a pocket computer.

> >2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer is given as being the
> >size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks are keyboard-size. But
> >decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your head, so how small can they be?
>
> pretty small i'd guess, probably about the size of a palm pilot
> maybe? Remeber the implanted one's lack the need for any large interface,
> displays, and just the genreal limitation of size when it comes to how
> small can a person actually use something realistically (ever seen those
> ridicuously small cell phones? I don't think they are very
> comfortable to use)

How much are you willing to pay? Do you want it in a case?
The one that fits in a cyberarm costs 4? times as much, and the C^2
deck doesn't have a case.

> >3) Can you use chips as 'workspace' on a computer in SR, the way you can
> >run programs or edit files off of a disc irl?

What do you mean by a chip? I was under the impression that
OCs were like CD-Rs. You spend some time burning them, and they're
WORMs.

Mark
Message no. 6
From: Fanguad fanguad@****.rit.edu
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:33:55 -0500
> 2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer is given as being the
> size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks are keyboard-size. But
> decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your head, so how small can they be?

For the K-mart shoppers, they could get pretty small, a la other
posts. If a decker built their own system, they'd prolly be
considerably larger, IMO, since the deckers wouldn't have the tools
to integrate everything and save huge amounts of space.

In case that didn't make sense, in RL, you can build a laptop that
is as good as a normal PC. They can save all that space by
buying more expensive (smaller) components, and by specifically
designing the internal layout so there is very little wasted space.
This requires a lot of work to get a layout like that. If you wanted to
build a nova-hot deck, you're not going to waste (too much) time or
money designing it to save internal space, especially if it comes at
the cost of making future modifications difficult.

-Fanguad
-------------------------
Modern programming is a race between programmers
striving to create bigger and better idiot-proof
programs, and the Universe trying to create bigger
and better idiots.

So far, the Universe is winning.
Message no. 7
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:41:48 EST
In a message dated 11/11/1999 1:40:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
taichara@*******.com writes:

> It seems my decker/computer freak player is at it again, this time with
some
> minor but wierd questions..
>
> 1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also 2000Y, why
is
> there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"? A pocket.sec is a
"pocket
> computer", isn't it?

I don't believe this is canon, but we've argued that the "computational
abilities" of a personal secretary are more Word Processing, Email, and
Calculator/Spreadsheet stuff.

> 2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer is given as being the
> size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks are keyboard-size. But
> decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your head, so how small can they be?

Oh this is *ALWAYS* one of my favorite questions. We've had a decker who had
his cyberdeck made into the shaft of a fairly durable cane (custom made of
course), and another decker who hid his into the interior lining (behind the
plates) of his long coat. IMO, the biggest question is always whether or not
the cyberdeck has a keyboard/keypad at all. Purely neural decks do NOT have
to look like the keyboard decks at all. This gives for a lot of potential
room and flexibility.

> 3) Can you use chips as 'workspace' on a computer in SR, the way you can
run
> programs or edit files off of a disc irl?

In theory, yes. In practice, I really think NO. The problem as I see it is
the actual manipulation space required to move the source code about with
fuller flexibility. IF you were to allow such, I'd say apply some time and
target number modifiers, say 50% increase in time (all that back/forth
nonsense to the hard drive) and +2 to the target numbers (as the whole
program can't be available at a single time).

> Like I said, minor but wierd. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks :>



-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 8
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:53:13 -0600 (CST)
Today, Tai'Chara StarGazer spoke on A few questions about SR computers:

> 1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also 2000Y, why is
> there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"? A pocket.sec is a
"pocket
> computer", isn't it?

Pocket Secretaries aren't upgradable and you have to use the software
that's pre-installed on them, you can't choose and you can't install extra
(like a programming shop...) At least, I would put some major
restrictions on the pocsec. That's not cannon but it only makes sense for
the price.

> 2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer is given as being the
> size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks are keyboard-size. But
> decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your head, so how small can they be?

Imagine rolling up your keyboard, now, half that diameter (or so) and
that's how big a forearm you get. The ones in your head require special
parts, you could use those parts to make one that you don't install and
get one down to the size of a TI-89, but you'll have to go DNI as there's
no keyboard. Other wise flatish keyboard is as small as they get.

> 3) Can you use chips as 'workspace' on a computer in SR, the way you can run
> programs or edit files off of a disc irl?

No, it's too slow. The memory requirements are how much memory (RAM) the
compiler takes up when it is compiling the holo-code. (Or that's what I'd
say, if they really want to skimp on memory and use the re-writable chips
either subtract one from thier task bonus or double thier base time (disk
swapping is slow.)

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984
Message no. 9
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:07:01 -0200
On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:38:31 PST
"Tai'Chara StarGazer" <taichara@*******.com> wrote:

>
> Jya.
>
> It seems my decker/computer freak player is at it again, this time with some
> minor but wierd questions..
>
> 1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also 2000Y, why is
> there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"? A pocket.sec is a
"pocket
> computer", isn't it?

Use the secretary then :) . It even has more options! You could
say that the pocket secretaries are actualy pocket comps with 100Mp of
memory, and use their price formula if the player wants a more (or less)
powerful pocket secretary.

> 2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer is given as being the
> size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks are keyboard-size. But
> decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your head, so how small can they be?

The implanted ones are very small indeed, measuring a few
centimeters, if that much. They also cost 10 times more :) . A hot deck
can be as small as a "discman" since it needs no keyboard.

> 3) Can you use chips as 'workspace' on a computer in SR, the way you can run
> programs or edit files off of a disc irl?

Maybe, but Mp capacity on a computer also measures processing
power. Using memory chips to store code won't add bonuses for extra
computer memory, since they don't increase the computer's processing
power.

> Like I said, minor but wierd. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks :>
>
> Tai
Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
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Message no. 10
From: Jyster Cap jyster007@*****.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:32:35 -0800 (PST)
> >Jya.
> >

> >2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer
> is given as being the
> >size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks
> are keyboard-size. But
> >decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your head,
> so how small can they be?

If you use cranial parts it can be the size of a
pen or smaller, whatever you desire.

====
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Message no. 11
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:40:49 CST
>2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer is given as being >the
>size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks are keyboard-
>size. But decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your head, so how >small
>can they be?

If you can stuff enough gear in your head to run as many drones as you
having rating within 2 km (all in .3 essence); you could probably make a
cyberdeck about the size of your hand.

Grim Shear
"Dammit man, I thought I told you to throw the _Grenade_
not the pin." Spoken soon after telling a _really_ stupid
(and well roleplayed Troll), to pull the pin and throw it.

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Message no. 12
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:24:32 -0800
On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:38:31 PST "Tai'Chara StarGazer"
<taichara@*******.com> writes:
>
> Jya.
>
> It seems my decker/computer freak player is at it again, this time with
some
> minor but wierd questions..
>
> 1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also 2000Y,
why is
> there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"? A pocket.sec is a
"pocket
> computer", isn't it?

The best answer is Mark A Shieh's suggestion that the Pocket Secretary is
so widespread that corps can afford a lower sales price. Another
contreibuting factor is bundling. Think of all the crap that you got with
your compy (especially if you have a win box), particulary the program
that let's you use your computer as a speakerphone. I figure a Pocket
Secretary is not much more than a 100 Mp Pocket Computer with specialized
software bundled. Also, note that a Pocket Secretary can not be linked to
the matrix, but it makes no mention of any such limitation about Pocket
Computers. Therefore, one advantage of a Pocket Computer is that it might
be able to tortoise on the matrix.

> 2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer is given as being
the
> size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks are keyboard-size.
But
> decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your head, so how small can they
be?

I would, based on the rules in VR 2.0 and Cybertecnology, apply this
standard:
Cyberdeck Size Cost Multiple
Desktop PC Case x.5
Keyboard x1
Shadowrun SB x2
Paperback Novel x4
CD Case x6
Pack of Cigs x10
I appologize for the lack of a smooth progression but it was the best I
could come up with.

> 3) Can you use chips as 'workspace' on a computer in SR, the way you
can run
> programs or edit files off of a disc irl?

You can't IRL. (I'm pretty sure.) IRL, you open a file, load it (entirely
or partially) into memory, edit it, and then write it to disk. If you are
thinking of swap memory, what that does is swap memory items not in use
to disk and memory items about to be used to memory.

IMO, there should be a distinction between Active and Storage Memory in
SR computers. Based of the VR2.0 Cyberdeck Memory prices, I would suggest
11 nuyen per Mp of Active memory and 9 nuyen per Mp of storage. However,
since, in my experience, these comps are primarily used for offline
storage, you may want to use higher prices such as 20 nuyen/Mp Active and
16 nuyen/Mp Storage.

Speaking of swap memory, it slows down your work ... therefore, why not
say that if you do not have enough memory when programming (See pages
100-102, VR2.0), but at least 50% of the program size, you get a task
bouns of -1. If your task bonus would otherwise be zero (ie, one day's
work acheives one day's work), then for every two day's work, you only
accomplish one day's work.

> Like I said, minor but wierd. Any thoughts would be greatly
appreciated.
> Thanks :>

No Problem :)

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 13
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:24:38 +0100
According to Tai'Chara StarGazer, at 10:38 on 11 Nov 99, the word on
the street was...

> It seems my decker/computer freak player is at it again, this time with some
> minor but wierd questions..

Don't let people who know about computers IRL play deckers in SR *grin*

> 1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also 2000Y, why is
> there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"? A pocket.sec is a
"pocket
> computer", isn't it?

A pocket computer is a normal computer, but small enough to fit into a
pocket -- I think of them as those organizers that run Windows CE. The
cost is so high probably because of the miniaturization of the components:
these days, laptops are more expensive than regular PCs because their
components have to be made smaller than for a normal PC, and I don't see
why the same thing couldn't be happening in SR.

A pocket secretary, though, breaks the rules a bit. With its 100 Mp memory
and 2,000Y cost it's just as expensive as a desktop computer with the same
memory (while it should be a pocket computer and thus 5 times as
expensive, IMHO), but it has added features like a built-in phone and
camera. My suggestion is to lower a "standard" pocket sec's memory to 20
Mp, or to (say) 17 Mp if you don't want to give any features for free.

You could of course assume pocket secs are the same as cellphones today:
you almost get the #)*%& things for free when you buy a candy bar, but pay
through the nose for actually using them.

> 2) How small can a cyberdeck be? A desktop computer is given as being the
> size of a keyboard (SR3); most pictures of decks are keyboard-size. But
> decks can go into a cyber(fore)arm, or your head, so how small can they be?

The biggest component is probably the keyboard, as there's a minimum size
it can have and still be practical to use. Leaving the keyboard away would
allow a cyberdeck to be made much smaller, and, perhaps coupled with the
above-mentioned miniaturization, be small enough to fit into a cyberarm or
a skull. The drawback would be that you can't run it cool or as a
tortoise.

> 3) Can you use chips as 'workspace' on a computer in SR, the way you can run
> programs or edit files off of a disc irl?

IMHO, yes. Each computer has one or more chip ports that you can stick a
chip into and use as you would a diskette IRL.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Destiny is a state of mind
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:04:49 -0200
On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:24:38 +0100
"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> The biggest component is probably the keyboard, as there's a minimum size
> it can have and still be practical to use. Leaving the keyboard away would
> allow a cyberdeck to be made much smaller, and, perhaps coupled with the
> above-mentioned miniaturization, be small enough to fit into a cyberarm or
> a skull. The drawback would be that you can't run it cool or as a
> tortoise.

Not a big probably, since "real" deckers always run hot :) .

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 15
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:52:11 -0500
> 1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also
> 2000Y, why is there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"?
> A pocket.sec is a "pocket computer", isn't it?

I've thought quite a bit about pocket secs, as you can see for yourself in
the NAGEE article I wrote on them
(http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/nagee/7.html).

First of all, in SR2, the list price for a pocket sec is 3,000Y. In SR2,
the list for a 100Mp pocket computer is 100 x 20 x 5 = 10,000. I don't have
SR3 with me, but I think the price did change there.

Another major difference is that pocket secs (most of them) have built in
cell phones.

The logical conclusion would be that, while pocket secs are reasonably
powerful, a pocket computer is _much_ faster. In game terms, this means
absolutely nothing, since no rules are present for computer speed of
non-cyberdecks.
Message no. 16
From: kawaii kawaii@********.org
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:34:13 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Wordman wrote:

> > 1) If a pocket secretary is 2000Y, and a 100Mp desktop is also
> > 2000Y, why is there a greater cost for a "pocket computer"?
> > A pocket.sec is a "pocket computer", isn't it?
>
> I've thought quite a bit about pocket secs, as you can see for yourself in
> the NAGEE article I wrote on them
> (http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/nagee/7.html).
>
> First of all, in SR2, the list price for a pocket sec is 3,000Y. In SR2,
> the list for a 100Mp pocket computer is 100 x 20 x 5 = 10,000. I don't have
> SR3 with me, but I think the price did change there.
>
> Another major difference is that pocket secs (most of them) have built in
> cell phones.
>
> The logical conclusion would be that, while pocket secs are reasonably
> powerful, a pocket computer is _much_ faster. In game terms, this means
> absolutely nothing, since no rules are present for computer speed of
> non-cyberdecks.
>
>

I believe it is simply the difference between current day Palm Pilots and
machines that have Windows CE on them. Windows CE simply has more
functionality, but that is not reflected in terms of game play.

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 17
From: lomion lomion@*********.or
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:55:03 -0800
> > 3) Can you use chips as 'workspace' on a computer in SR, the way you
>can run
> > programs or edit files off of a disc irl?
>
>You can't IRL. (I'm pretty sure.) IRL, you open a file, load it (entirely
>or partially) into memory, edit it, and then write it to disk. If you are
>thinking of swap memory, what that does is swap memory items not in use
>to disk and memory items about to be used to memory.

You can do this IRL, it's called a ramdisk under dos/windows. Depending on
the flavor of unix it's is called various things, a filesystem entirely
in memory under FreeBSD is mfs, i use this as a temp drive it's much
faster than swapping to disk since disk i/o is a bottleneck.

It depends what they mean by a "workspace", you can run things entirely in
memory, it's a trick to increase the performance of a webserver or database
server. Less disk writes it better.

Of course using volatile memory aka active storage to do this means if
power goes out your SOL unless you backed it up to disk.

--lomion
Message no. 18
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:20:15 EST
In a message dated 11/12/1999 7:53:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
wordman@*******.com writes:

> First of all, in SR2, the list price for a pocket sec is 3,000Y. In SR2,
> the list for a 100Mp pocket computer is 100 x 20 x 5 = 10,000. I don't have
> SR3 with me, but I think the price did change there.
>
They did. They are now 2,000 ny.

> Another major difference is that pocket secs (most of them) have built in
> cell phones.
>
> The logical conclusion would be that, while pocket secs are reasonably
> powerful, a pocket computer is _much_ faster. In game terms, this means
> absolutely nothing, since no rules are present for computer speed of
> non-cyberdecks.
>
Since there arnt any rules out there, let me throw my POV into the pot. A
pocket Secretary is like todays Palm Pilots. Ever tried to do REAL work
with one of those? In general, a PS only runs its bundled software, while a
Pocket comp is just that... A pocket computer, capable of runing any program
it has enough memory to handle. A Pocket sec is basicly a pocket Telcom from
the book, except it cant recieve trid, while a P.C. is more like that
"wearable" computer that's in development (And nearing production, I would
assume, since I saw an ad about one on the TV last night)

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 19
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:54:57 EST
In a message dated 11/12/1999 10:53:11 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
wordman@*******.com writes:

>
> The logical conclusion would be that, while pocket secs are reasonably
> powerful, a pocket computer is _much_ faster. In game terms, this means
> absolutely nothing, since no rules are present for computer speed of
> non-cyberdecks.

Actually, they might be. Cyberdecks of a "cold mode" are reduced in
comparison to their normal operating speeds. "Tourtoises" also are slower
than this. That is literally where we'd be going to on the "speed"
comparisons.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 20
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:34:10 -0500
> A pocket Secretary is like todays Palm Pilots. Ever tried to do
> REAL work with one of those? In general, a PS only runs its
> bundled software

Pocket secs are closer to being Newton Message Pad 2100's. Even though the
MP2100 has been dead for two years, it is still head and shoulders above
the Palm Pilots, and closer in functionality to a pocket sec. Having a
fully functional TCP/IP stack, MP2100s could browse the web and use the net
like a desktop machine. Palm Pilots can't (at least, until very recently).
The MP2100 could read to you, Pilots can't. MP2100s understand your
handwriting directly (and while the original MP's recognition sucked, the
MP2100 recognized _very_ well), Pilots require Graffiti. MP2100 had (and
still have) a variety of software that actually did real work
(spreadsheets, database, inventory control, etc.), Pilots are still
basically in toy land. The MP2100 had a 166MHz StrongArm, the Pilots
doesn't have nearly that much juice. MP2100's could run cell phones,
ethernet and other stuff through PC cards, Pilots can't. And... <smack!>...
sorry, got carried away there.

Pocket secs would be at least as powerful as desktop machines are today.
Probably much more so, to process voice so well. Pocket secs, like Newtons,
can and do use third party software that actually does real work. Some
pocket secs will be better at this than others, for one reason: screen
size. For example, even if the MP2100 and the Pilot had the exact same
power, software and abilities, the Pilot would still be fairly useless for
any real work, because the screen is just to small. Pocket secs would be
the same (as I illustrate in my article). All have the power to run useful
software, but some models aren't geared toward that kind of user
experience.

Another thing pocket secs would spend a lot of processor time on is
analyzing their own data. They are pocket "secretaries", after all. They
would act as data valets, reminders, and probably suggest things that you
want before you even knew you wanted them.

This makes a pocket sec a pretty serious bundle of tech. This means that,
assuming a rational market, the only rational reason to buy a pocket
computer over a pocket sec for the same price is that it a pocket computer
must be much higher performance. About the only thing I can think would
need this much power is portable, on-the-fly, high quality video and trideo
editing. Maybe simsense editing as well. The pocket sec would probably not
have the juice for that, but a pocket comp probably would.
Message no. 21
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:52:23 -0600
:> The biggest component is probably the keyboard, as there's a minimum size
:> it can have and still be practical to use. Leaving the keyboard away
would
:> allow a cyberdeck to be made much smaller, and, perhaps coupled with the
:> above-mentioned miniaturization, be small enough to fit into a cyberarm
or
:> a skull. The drawback would be that you can't run it cool or as a
:> tortoise.


A DNI could replace the function of a keyboard, couldn't it? After all,
it allows control of devices that normally have key ONLY input, right?

Mongoose
Message no. 22
From: Richard Swen rswen@********.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:16:34 -0800
At 12:34 PM 11/12/99, you wrote:
>> A pocket Secretary is like todays Palm Pilots. Ever tried to do
>> REAL work with one of those? In general, a PS only runs its
>> bundled software
>
[Snip Stuff about Palm Pilots and MP2100s]

Currently which closest thing which I know of to a Pocket
Secretary is a PDQ Phone made by Qualcomm. The Device is
a Digital CDMA Phone integrated with a Palm Pilot. The
only advancement needed is the ability to network these on
a standard LAN/WAN and you have a basic Pocket Secretary.
Currently the company is working on HDR (High Data Rate)
with other phones and will probably incorporate it with
the PDQ and other products available at the time. After
that, the addition of a built-in eternet adapter or PCMCIA
card adapter would be needed to make it a fully functional
device.

Thank you,
Richard Swen
Message no. 23
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:57:40 EST
In a message dated 11/12/1999 5:03:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> :> The biggest component is probably the keyboard, as there's a minimum size
> :> it can have and still be practical to use. Leaving the keyboard away
> would
> :> allow a cyberdeck to be made much smaller, and, perhaps coupled with the
> :> above-mentioned miniaturization, be small enough to fit into a cyberarm
> or
> :> a skull. The drawback would be that you can't run it cool or as a
> :> tortoise.
>
>
> A DNI could replace the function of a keyboard, couldn't it? After
all,
> it allows control of devices that normally have key ONLY input, right?
>
We've accepted this part already Mongoose, what he's suggesting is that if
you have *only* DNI, then you do *NOT* have the option of running in "Cold
Mode". You'd always be "Hot". I do find this interesting, as Rigger-tech
has a "Captain's Chair" mode, which is not direct, but Matrix does not.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 24
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:58:43 EST
In a message dated 11/12/1999 5:17:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
rswen@********.com writes:

> Currently which closest thing which I know of to a Pocket
> Secretary is a PDQ Phone made by Qualcomm. The Device is
> a Digital CDMA Phone integrated with a Palm Pilot. The
> only advancement needed is the ability to network these on
> a standard LAN/WAN and you have a basic Pocket Secretary.
> Currently the company is working on HDR (High Data Rate)
> with other phones and will probably incorporate it with
> the PDQ and other products available at the time. After
> that, the addition of a built-in eternet adapter or PCMCIA
> card adapter would be needed to make it a fully functional
> device.

What about the concept of "Digital Network Broadcasting"??? Couldn't that
take the place of what you are saying here?

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 25
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:05:24 +0100
According to Sebastian Wiers, at 13:52 on 12 Nov 99, the word on
the street was...

> :> The biggest component is probably the keyboard, as there's a minimum size
> :> it can have and still be practical to use. Leaving the keyboard away would
> :> allow a cyberdeck to be made much smaller, and, perhaps coupled with the
> :> above-mentioned miniaturization, be small enough to fit into a cyberarm or
> :> a skull. The drawback would be that you can't run it cool or as a
> :> tortoise.
>
> A DNI could replace the function of a keyboard, couldn't it? After all,
> it allows control of devices that normally have key ONLY input, right?

It could be done that way, yes. But would that make it a cool deck
controlled through DNI, or simply a hot deck?

IMHO a DNI on a cyberdeck means you don't need to jack into the deck, but
as you still have no keyboard you can only run it hot.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Destiny is a state of mind
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:05:24 +0100
According to Wordman, at 10:52 on 12 Nov 99, the word on the street was...

> I've thought quite a bit about pocket secs, as you can see for yourself in
> the NAGEE article I wrote on them
> (http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/nagee/7.html).

Thanks for the plug :)

> First of all, in SR2, the list price for a pocket sec is 3,000Y. In SR2,
> the list for a 100Mp pocket computer is 100 x 20 x 5 = 10,000. I don't have
> SR3 with me, but I think the price did change there.

It's 2,000Y in SR3. My guess is that FASA just figured 100 Mp x 20Y/Mp =
2,000 Mp, without thinking about the higher cost of pocket and wrist
computers.

(BTW, does anyone else find the idea of walking around with a 100 Mp wrist
computer a bit silly? I mean, would you strap a US$40,000 piece of
equipment to your wrist and walk around in public with it?)

> The logical conclusion would be that, while pocket secs are reasonably
> powerful, a pocket computer is _much_ faster. In game terms, this means
> absolutely nothing, since no rules are present for computer speed of
> non-cyberdecks.

You can use it to add color to the game: if a PC is using a pocket sec,
especially for things that take some time (e.g. searching through a file
for some data), mention a couple of times that the thing is pretty slow
compared to a normal computer.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Destiny is a state of mind
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 13:35:13 -0800
On Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:05:24 +0100 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
<SNIP>
> (BTW, does anyone else find the idea of walking around with a 100 Mp
wrist
> computer a bit silly? I mean, would you strap a US$40,000 piece of
> equipment to your wrist and walk around in public with it?)

Well, yes. However, it may not be intended to be used in that manner.
Perhaps a secretary would use it to take dictation, a company man may use
it for "memos to self", or someone in a warehous may use it for
inventory.

On the other hand, image has something to do with the risk of walking
with it in public. If you walk around with a $300 Palm Dohickey while
wearing $150 shoes, which is more likely to get you mugged?

However, IMO, computers in SR are overpriced. IMO, the base price should
be somehere between 2¥ and 10¥ per Mp of memory. Why should computer
memory outprice cyberdeck memory?

> > The logical conclusion would be that, while pocket secs are
reasonably
> > powerful, a pocket computer is _much_ faster. In game terms, this
means
> > absolutely nothing, since no rules are present for computer speed of
> > non-cyberdecks.

> You can use it to add color to the game: if a PC is using a pocket sec,

> especially for things that take some time (e.g. searching through a
file
> for some data), mention a couple of times that the thing is pretty slow

> compared to a normal computer.

Or that he accessed the wrong command with the stylus. Perhaps the
writing recognition function mispelled a word in the email he just sent.
Maybe the storage space is low and an important message got cut short.

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 28
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 18:15:56 -0200
On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:34:13 -0500 (EST)
kawaii <kawaii@********.org> wrote:

> I believe it is simply the difference between current day Palm Pilots and
> machines that have Windows CE on them. Windows CE simply has more
> functionality, but that is not reflected in terms of game play.
>
> Ever lovable and always scrappy,
> kawaii
>

Most machines with WCE are still palmtops, and the proprietary
operational systems work just as well if not better :) . The difference,
if there's any at all in 2060 would be more like the one between a
palmtop (any of them) and a "hand-held" notebook (which has all the
components a desktop or normal notebook does).


Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 29
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: A few questions about SR computers
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 18:31:00 -0200
On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:34:10 -0500
"Wordman" <wordman@*******.com> wrote:

> Pocket secs would be at least as powerful as desktop machines are today.
> Probably much more so, to process voice so well.

I think a 2060 pocket _calculator_ would be more powerful than a
1990's mainframe (or at least could be), if we take the developmente of
the last 50 years as base :) .

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455

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