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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Wed Jun 27 12:30:01 2001
I have some questions about Armor (Vehicle) and Armor (Personal) in r3.131.

The text for personal armor says "It has the same effect on vehicle-scale
weaponry as personal body armor." What does that mean? I can't find any
rules that cover the effect of personal body armor defending against
vehicle-scale weaponry in sr3, r3, or cc. Does Armor (Personal) protect
against attacks on the vehicle, or only against attacks on passengers?

Is there any point to installing both forms of armor on a single
vehicle? If so, how would power and damage level of an attack on a
passenger in a vehicle with 4 points of Armor (Vehicle) and 6 points of
Armor (Personal) be calculated?

Armor (Vehicle) increases handling by 1 per 6 points of armor. Does this
mean that 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 points of armor cause an increase of 1 to
handling, or does the handling increase only take effect when the sixth
point of armor is added?

I'm assuming that the limit for starting characters of rating 6 items means
that a starting rigger character is limited to 6 points of armor on a
vehicle. Is this correct?

I'm not clear on what happens to a drone that is disaffiliated from a
remote control deck. Can I give a drone an order, disaffiliate it, and
have it continue to carry out the order? If yes, then how long will the
drone continue to carry out orders? If no, then what happens if I
disaffiliate a helicopter while it is flying - does it crash, or does it
land, or what?

The maximum load for an electric fuel cell powering an SUV or a Van r3.197
seems a bit high. Should that be 2,000 instead of 20,000? Is there an
errata sheet for r3?

Thanks in advance for any help.

-----
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home." --Ken Olson, Pres., chairman & founder of Digital
Equipment Corp. 1977
Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/
chris@*****.net AIM:ChrisShaff
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Wed Jun 27 12:45:04 2001
Von Chris Shaffer :

<snip>

>Is there an errata sheet for r3?

No, but Fanpro is almost finished with translating it into german. During
that process, R3 got also checked for errors of any kind from what I've
heard and seen. I guess there'll be an errata soon.

Arclight
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Wed Jun 27 19:10:05 2001
--- Chris Shaffer <chris@*****.net> wrote:
> I have some questions about Armor (Vehicle) and
> Armor (Personal) in r3.131.
>
> The text for personal armor says "It has the same
> effect on vehicle-scale
> weaponry as personal body armor." What does that
> mean? I can't find any
> rules that cover the effect of personal body armor
> defending against
> vehicle-scale weaponry in sr3, r3, or cc. Does
> Armor (Personal) protect
> against attacks on the vehicle, or only against
> attacks on passengers?

I think that it means that there is no damage level
reduction.

> Is there any point to installing both forms of armor
> on a single
> vehicle? If so, how would power and damage level of
> an attack on a
> passenger in a vehicle with 4 points of Armor
> (Vehicle) and 6 points of
> Armor (Personal) be calculated?

If the personal armor is cheaper than the vehicle
armor (I don't have rigger3 yet) then it makes
sense.Remember ablatible armor in rigger2?
The attack would loose a damage level and 10 points of
power I think.Pretty munchkinizing in my opinion (and
I like it!!).

> Armor (Vehicle) increases handling by 1 per 6 points
> of armor. Does this
> mean that 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 points of armor cause an
> increase of 1 to
> handling, or does the handling increase only take
> effect when the sixth
> point of armor is added?

Yes.

> I'm assuming that the limit for starting characters
> of rating 6 items means
> that a starting rigger character is limited to 6
> points of armor on a
> vehicle. Is this correct?

No.It doesn't apply on the internal parts of vehicles.

> I'm not clear on what happens to a drone that is
> disaffiliated from a
> remote control deck. Can I give a drone an order,
> disaffiliate it, and
> have it continue to carry out the order? If yes,
> then how long will the
> drone continue to carry out orders? If no, then
> what happens if I
> disaffiliate a helicopter while it is flying - does
> it crash, or does it
> land, or what?

Yes.It will continue until it performs the task.Then
it will stand idle (that is why you should install
some memory with a couple of additional
instructions).Same for the helicopter.



====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Richard Tomasso)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Thu Jun 28 10:05:01 2001
>From: Chris Shaffer <chris@*****.net>
>
>I have some questions about Armor (Vehicle) and Armor (Personal) in r3.131.
>
>The text for personal armor says "It has the same effect on vehicle-scale
>weaponry as personal body armor." What does that mean?

If memoery serves, I added this one in. Basically, just what it says.
Treat it as personal-scale armor. Basically, it's useful against
small-arms fire, but not so much against anti-vehicle weapons.
As an analogy, treat the car as a person wearing an armored jacket of
the same rating.


>Does Armor (Personal) protect against attacks on the vehicle, or
>only against attacks on passengers?

It's coverage is the same as standard vehicle armor.


>Is there any point to installing both forms of armor on a single
>vehicle?

Probably not. I don't think I had that in mind when I wrote it.

>If so, how would power and damage level of an attack on a
>passenger in a vehicle with 4 points of Armor (Vehicle) and 6 points of
>Armor (Personal) be calculated?

I'd apply the vehicle armor first, since it's possible it will
stop the attack anyway.


>I'm assuming that the limit for starting characters of rating 6 items means
>that a starting rigger character is limited to 6 points
>of armor on a vehicle. Is this correct?

Since there are vehicles with armor higher than 6, I'd say no.


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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Thu Jun 28 19:15:00 2001
>>The text for personal armor says "It has the same effect on vehicle-scale
>>weaponry as personal body armor." What does that mean?
>
>If memoery serves, I added this one in. Basically, just what it says.
>Treat it as personal-scale armor. Basically, it's useful against
>small-arms fire, but not so much against anti-vehicle weapons.
>As an analogy, treat the car as a person wearing an armored jacket of
>the same rating.

You would still reduce the damage level and halve the power of the attack,
as that's a function of the vehicle, not the armor, right? So the only
difference is that vehicle armor counts as impact and ballistic and attacks
of less power than the armor rating don't have any effect, while personal
armor counts as ballistic (not impact) and attacks of less power than the
armor rating can potentially cause damage? (and, of course, vehicle armor
costs 10x what personal armor costs)

>>If so, how would power and damage level of an attack on a
>>passenger in a vehicle with 4 points of Armor (Vehicle) and 6 points of
>>Armor (Personal) be calculated?
>
>I'd apply the vehicle armor first, since it's possible it will
>stop the attack anyway.

But if it doesn't stop the attack, do you then reduce the power by the
personal armor level? Say a weapon of 22D is reduced to 12S by the
vehicle, and is then reduced to 8S by the 6 points of vehicle armor...would
you then further reduce it to 2S by the personal armor?


-----
Okay, who stopped payment on my reality check?
Chris Shaffer chris@*****.net
http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Thu Jun 28 19:20:08 2001
At 06:20 PM 6/28/2001, you wrote:
>But if it doesn't stop the attack, do you then reduce the power by the
>personal armor level? Say a weapon of 22D is reduced to 12S by the
>vehicle, and is then reduced to 8S by the 6 points of vehicle
>armor...would you then further reduce it to 2S by the personal armor?

Whoops, got those numbers wrong. 24D -> 12S -> 8S -> 2S ?


-----
Okay, who stopped payment on my reality check?
Chris Shaffer chris@*****.net
http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Fri Jun 29 01:05:01 2001
>I have some questions about Armor (Vehicle) and Armor (Personal) in r3.131.
>
>The text for personal armor says "It has the same effect on vehicle-scale
>weaponry as personal body armor." What does that mean? I can't find any
>rules that cover the effect of personal body armor defending against
>vehicle-scale weaponry in sr3, r3, or cc. Does Armor (Personal) protect
>against attacks on the vehicle, or only against attacks on passengers?

That one put me for a loop too- afaik, body armor (like an armored jacket)
reduces the power of AV weapons by its full amount. Thats better than
vehicle armor does against AV weapons- if you reduce the power of AV
weapons by even half the rating of the "personal armor" a vehicle has, then
its just as effective as normal vehicle armor already!

It therefore seems logical (from the name, if nothing else) that is ONLY
aids the passengers of the vehicle, not the vehicle itself. That
essentially means the crew compartment is lined with kevlar, much as is done
in protectected vehicles toaday- and similarly, the engine is still
vulnerable unless otherwise protected. However, the "load" of personal
armor is based of vehicle body, not the size of the crew compartment or
number of protected passengers. Odd, but still, the other logic points
towards passenger protection only.

Bet hey, you do know who to ask. :-) While at it, ask about AV weapons
used against people, and whether thier amor helps as normal, is reuced by
half, or is completley inneffective.

>Is there any point to installing both forms of armor on a single
>vehicle? If so, how would power and damage level of an attack on a
>passenger in a vehicle with 4 points of Armor (Vehicle) and 6 points of
>Armor (Personal) be calculated?

I think you would apply both armors, but maybe use the "layering armor"
effect- IE, only the best plus half the rest. If there was vehicular armor
or body was greater than the attacks power, there would still be no effect,
of course, no matter what, but otherwise the target would still make a
damage resitance test with a TN of at least 2.

>Armor (Vehicle) increases handling by 1 per 6 points of armor. Does this
>mean that 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 points of armor cause an increase of 1 to
>handling, or does the handling increase only take effect when the sixth
>point of armor is added?

I think its for every full 6 points. In the old "rigger 1" book, armor was
about twice as efective (I think) and there was explicitey a penalty for
evey 3 full points.

>I'm assuming that the limit for starting characters of rating 6 items means
>that a starting rigger character is limited to 6 points of armor on a
>vehicle. Is this correct?

I don't think so. Armor is a stat that a vehicle has- its not a piece of
gear with its own rating. A starting character's vehicle can have a speed
or acceleration or sig (or god forbid, handling) higher than 6, right?
Starting characters can buy weapons with a Power higher than 6, right?
Availability might be a limit, however- if its a custom vehicle, the GM sets
that, ands most vehicles with heavy armor have VERY high availability. If
its DIY armor, well, 9 points isn't any harder to get than 6, and about as
easy to install. {BTW, its way to easy to install armor on a vehicle, IMO -
its hard work with specialized tools and materials that by defintion don't
like to cut, bend, or melt, but need to be fit tightly and held in very
securely.}

>I'm not clear on what happens to a drone that is disaffiliated from a
>remote control deck. Can I give a drone an order, disaffiliate it, and
>have it continue to carry out the order? If yes, then how long will the
>drone continue to carry out orders? If no, then what happens if I
>disaffiliate a helicopter while it is flying - does it crash, or does it
>land, or what?

A disafilated drone is essentially a (rather stupid) robot, no? It would
follow its last orders if told to do so, IMO, or some default order. Look
at what happens when a drones signal is jammed so that its essentially cut
off from the deck - I think R2 covered this explicitely, and R3 may as well.

>The maximum load for an electric fuel cell powering an SUV or a Van r3.197
>seems a bit high. Should that be 2,000 instead of 20,000? Is there an
>errata sheet for r3?

"A bit high?" Ah, you do have a dry wit...
I'd say its a typo, or at least a vast over-estimation of what a Suv or Van
(electric or otherwise) can carry.
4400 lbs (2000 Kg) is a very respectable load for a SUV or Van with gas or
deisel power (beyond the capacity of an E-350 or similar van, more like an
F-450 or other small box truck), and is technologically awsome for any
non-industrial vehicle that is also lugging a battery as its sole power
source and has any measurable range.
44,000 lbs (20,000 Kg) is much more than any SUV or Van weighs, and
certainly much more than it can carry as cargo and accessories.

As for an R3 erratta, no, Rob hasn't sent one out. Keep pestering him. ;-)
Nice to hear from you, Chris. See you at Gencon!

-Seb
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan Szeto)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Fri Jun 29 09:10:01 2001
Chris Shaffer <chris@*****.net> wrote,

> Armor (Vehicle) increases handling by 1 per 6 points of armor. Does this
> mean that 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 points of armor cause an increase of 1 to
> handling, or does the handling increase only take effect when the sixth
> point of armor is added?

The increase only takes effect at every sixth point of (Vehicle) Armor. So,

0-5 no Handling modifier
6-11 +1 Handling
12-17 +2 Handling
and so on.

> I'm assuming that the limit for starting characters of rating 6 items
> means that a starting rigger character is limited to 6 points of armor
> on a vehicle. Is this correct?

No.

> I'm not clear on what happens to a drone that is disaffiliated from a
> remote control deck. Can I give a drone an order, disaffiliate it, and
> have it continue to carry out the order? If yes, then how long will the
> drone continue to carry out orders? If no, then what happens if I
> disaffiliate a helicopter while it is flying - does it crash, or does it
> land, or what?

A drone that is disaffiliated will carry out the last order given to it.
Once that task is complete, it enters standby mode until it is affiliated
again.

As an addendum, it would be reasonable, IMO, to assume that a drone on
standby is still capable of basic self-preservation. If in danger, it will
move to safety. If low on fuel, it will land and power down. However, a
drone won't counterattack if engaged, unless it's programming (Pilot and
installed autosofts) allow for such.

> The maximum load for an electric fuel cell powering an SUV or a Van r3.197
> seems a bit high. Should that be 2,000 instead of 20,000? Is there an
> errata sheet for r3?

That is an errata; the correct value should be 2,000. The errata sheet is
not
out yet, but both Rob and Crazy are putting the finishing touches on it, so
it should be coming out soon. (I believe the only holdup now is getting the
changes incorporated in the German version of Rigger 3.)

> You would still reduce the damage level and halve the power of the
> attack, as that's a function of the vehicle, not the armor, right?

Correct. That damage reduction applies for all vehicles, whether they have
vehicle armor, personal armor, or no armor at all.

> So the only difference is that vehicle armor counts as impact and
> ballistic and attacks of less power than the armor rating don't have any
> effect,

Well, sort of. With vehicle armor, there really is no difference between
Ballistic and Impact; you use the same number regardless of the attack type
(or to look at it in another way, Ballistic = Impact = Armor).

The second statement is correct, though. If Armor > base Power, then the
attack goes "poing!"

> while personal armor counts as ballistic (not impact) and attacks
> of less power than the armor rating can potentially cause damage? (and,
> of course, vehicle armor costs 10x what personal armor costs)

There are other differences. Personal armor doesn't weigh as much as
vehicle armor (which increases parabolically per point with Body). Also,
personal armor doesn't increase Handling, while Vehicle Armor does.

> >>If so, how would power and damage level of an attack on a
> >>passenger in a vehicle with 4 points of Armor (Vehicle) and 6 points of
> >>Armor (Personal) be calculated?
> >
> >I'd apply the vehicle armor first, since it's possible it will
> >stop the attack anyway.
>
> But if it doesn't stop the attack, do you then reduce the power by the
> personal armor level? Say a weapon of 22D is reduced to 12S by the
> vehicle, and is then reduced to 8S by the 6 points of vehicle armor...
> would you then further reduce it to 2S by the personal armor?

It would go like this (assuming it wasn't an AV weapon):

22D -> 11S (damage reduction for vehicles)
11S -> 7S (vehicle armor)
7S -> 2S (personal armor; note Power never falls below 2, since the
minimum TN for any test is 2.)

Hope this helps,

-- Jon
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Richard Tomasso)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Fri Jun 29 09:45:01 2001
>From: Chris Shaffer <chris@*****.net>
>
>>>The text for personal armor says "It has the same effect on vehicle-scale

>>>weaponry as personal body armor." What does that mean?
>>
>>If memoery serves, I added this one in. Basically, just what it says.
>>Treat it as personal-scale armor. Basically, it's useful against
>>small-arms fire, but not so much against anti-vehicle weapons.
>>As an analogy, treat the car as a person wearing an armored jacket of
>>the same rating.
>
>You would still reduce the damage level and halve the power of the attack,
>as that's a function of the vehicle, not the armor, right?

I think so, since it would apply to a vehicle w/o any armor.

>So the only difference is that vehicle armor counts as impact and
>ballistic and attacks of less power than the armor rating don't have
>any effect, while personal armor counts as ballistic (not impact)
>and attacks of less power than the armor rating can potentially cause
>damage?

That's the gist of it.


>>>If so, how would power and damage level of an attack on a
>>>passenger in a vehicle with 4 points of Armor (Vehicle) and 6 points of
>>>Armor (Personal) be calculated?
>>
>>I'd apply the vehicle armor first, since it's possible it will
>>stop the attack anyway.
>
>But if it doesn't stop the attack, do you then reduce the power by the
>personal armor level? Say a weapon of 22D is reduced to 12S by
>the vehicle, and is then reduced to 8S by the 6 points of vehicle
>armor...would you then further reduce it to 2S by the personal armor?

That'd be 11S by vehicle, to 5S by vehicle armor, then to 2S by
personal armor.

I meant see if the vehiclular armor would stop the attack first.
I forgot the math, so I'd say apply the modifiers for the
personal-scale first, then apply the vehicle modifiers.

So the attack would start at 22D and would get reduced to 16D from
the personal armor, then to 8S by the vehicle, and then to 2S... hmm,
no difference.

Probably why I was thinking most vehicles would have one or the other.

Tho this would change if it were an AV weapon, in which case the
personal-scale armor would have no effect at all, or be only half
as effective, whatever the normal rule is for shooting PCs with 'em.

But you can see the big difference having vehicle armor would make.
Just personal armor 6 would take 22D down to 8S.
Just vehicular armor 6 would take 22D down to 5S.
The fact that you're shooting a vehicle is the biggest modifier.

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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Fri Jun 29 13:05:01 2001
At 08:49 AM 6/29/2001, you wrote:
>I meant see if the vehiclular armor would stop the attack first.
>I forgot the math, so I'd say apply the modifiers for the
>personal-scale first, then apply the vehicle modifiers.
>
>So the attack would start at 22D and would get reduced to 16D from
>the personal armor, then to 8S by the vehicle, and then to 2S... hmm,
>no difference.
>
>Probably why I was thinking most vehicles would have one or the other.
>
>Tho this would change if it were an AV weapon, in which case the
>personal-scale armor would have no effect at all, or be only half
>as effective, whatever the normal rule is for shooting PCs with 'em.

That's the key. I have been completely unable to find any rules that say
what happens when you shoot PCs with anti-vehicle weapons. I looked in R3,
CC, SR3, M&M, etc.

Are there any rules that say what happens when you shoot a metahuman with
an anti-vehicle weapon? I don't think there are. So, personal armor still
reduces the attack as normal, regardless of weapon type.

>But you can see the big difference having vehicle armor would make.
>Just personal armor 6 would take 22D down to 8S.
>Just vehicular armor 6 would take 22D down to 5S.
>The fact that you're shooting a vehicle is the biggest modifier.

Yes, but for very little extra cost (5 design points per level, no load, no
CF) you can add personal armor to a vehicle that has vehicle armor and
reduce the power of virtually every attack to 2.


-----
Bradley's Bromide: "If computers get too powerful, we can
organize them into a committee -- that will do them in."
Chris Shaffer chris@*****.net
http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Choiniere)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Fri Jun 29 15:30:01 2001
CC, p. 36 against non-vehicle targets anti-vehicular rounds use the
rules for APDS ammo... hey Josh I made it on! :-p

>
> Are there any rules that say what happens when you shoot a metahuman with
> an anti-vehicle weapon? I don't think there are. So, personal armor
still
> reduces the attack as normal, regardless of weapon type.
>
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Fri Jun 29 16:55:01 2001
Hm, that's interesting. It still raises the question of whether this
applies to vehicles that have Armor (Personal) installed, as they are
vehicle targets and not non-vehicle targets... And it makes calculating an
attack against a vehicle with both forms of armor very complicated, as how
do you scale up to APDS against the Armor (Personal) while not scaling up
to APDS against the Armor (Vehicle)?

I think I like Monkphrog's suggestion that Armor (Personal) would only
apply to attacks on people in a vehicle, and not to attacks on the vehicle
itself. That would give me an incentive to install both forms of armor - I
can only afford a few points of Armor (Vehicle) which will protect my SUV,
but I can also afford to install 8 points of Armor (Personal) since it is
so cheap.

Methinks I've given the people writing the R3 errata something to consider,
so I'll leave it at that.

:-)

Chris
chris@*****.net

>CC, p. 36 against non-vehicle targets anti-vehicular rounds use the
>rules for APDS ammo... hey Josh I made it on! :-p
>
> >
> > Are there any rules that say what happens when you shoot a metahuman with
> > an anti-vehicle weapon? I don't think there are. So, personal armor
>still
> > reduces the attack as normal, regardless of weapon type.
> >
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Fri Jun 29 17:00:01 2001
Whoops, sorry, Mongoose's (Seb's) suggestion, not Monkphrog (I've got too
many friends with odd M names).

Chris



Hm, that's interesting. It still raises the question of whether this
applies to vehicles that have Armor (Personal) installed, as they are
vehicle targets and not non-vehicle targets... And it makes calculating an
attack against a vehicle with both forms of armor very complicated, as how
do you scale up to APDS against the Armor (Personal) while not scaling up
to APDS against the Armor (Vehicle)?

I think I like Monkphrog's suggestion that Armor (Personal) would only
apply to attacks on people in a vehicle, and not to attacks on the vehicle
itself. That would give me an incentive to install both forms of armor - I
can only afford a few points of Armor (Vehicle) which will protect my SUV,
but I can also afford to install 8 points of Armor (Personal) since it is
so cheap.

Methinks I've given the people writing the R3 errata something to consider,
so I'll leave it at that.

:-)

Chris
chris@*****.net

>CC, p. 36 against non-vehicle targets anti-vehicular rounds use the
>rules for APDS ammo... hey Josh I made it on! :-p
>
> >
> > Are there any rules that say what happens when you shoot a metahuman with
> > an anti-vehicle weapon? I don't think there are. So, personal armor
>still
> > reduces the attack as normal, regardless of weapon type.
> >
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Richard Tomasso)
Subject: A few rigger questions
Date: Sat Jun 30 19:00:01 2001
>>CC, p. 36 against non-vehicle targets anti-vehicular rounds use the
>>rules for APDS ammo... hey Josh I made it on! :-p

>Hm, that's interesting. It still raises the question of whether this
>applies to vehicles that have Armor (Personal) installed, as
>they are vehicle targets and not non-vehicle targets...

Treat it as personal-scale armor, so AV weapons would halve the
rating. (As would APDS ammo from regular weapons, IMO.)


>And it makes calculating an attack against a vehicle with both forms
>of armor very complicated,

I think someone mentioned treating vehicles with both types of armor
like stacking the armor. That is, half the rating of the lesser
armor against attacks. Which is sounding better to me all the time,
given the prior examples.


>I think I like Monkphrog's suggestion that Armor (Personal) would only
>apply to attacks on people in a vehicle, and not to attacks on
>the vehicle itself.

Fine for a house rule. But the Armor (personal) is still lining the
body panels and such, so it will protect the vehicle's internals.

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